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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 04:45 PM
Original message
It's not just the right that's to blame
I'm prepared to get flamed for this, but this is the first time I've seen this article. If this has been discussed before I apologize.

I think this is extremely important, in light of comments discussed recently about Citigroup's expectations as to what they expect in '05, as well as what we all expect as a country after we elect a new President.

IMO we need to be very careful about how we expect to achieve our goals (a more fair society, ending the MIC's domination, moving towards a more democratic republic, etc.)


Black Tuesday
by Gore Vidal
Originally appearing in La Jornada of Mexico, on 9/19/2001. No US publication dared run it.

The Bush administration, despite its disturbing ineptitude in doing its work – except the primary task, which is to exempt the rich from taxes – has been capable of breaking treaties signed by civilized nations such as the Kyoto Protocol and a missile treaty with Russia. (. . .) But to be just, we can’t blame the occupant of the Oval Office for our own ignorance. Bush’s predecessors were assiduous servants of the one- percent that are the owners of the country and cast adrift the rest of the population. Bill Clinton is very guilty of this. If he was the most capable chief executive since FDR, in his frenetic search for election victories he constructed he triggered a kind of political state, that his successor – as I write this – merely has to push a button to start. Political state? What do I mean by that? In April 1996, a year after the events in Oklahoma, President Clinton signed an anti-terrorist law, a supposed consensus law, in which many, many trembling hands had a part, including Senate Majority Leader Robert Dole.

Although Clinton was to win the election, he did many opportunistic, but dim-witted things. He battled the opponents of the anti-terrorism law – which gave the attorney general the power to use the army against the civil population – by annulling the Posse Comitatus principle of 1878, which prohibited, under any circumstance, the use of the military against our people.

Habeas corpus, the heart of Anglo-American liberty, can remain suspended if there is a terrorist in the city. Upon being criticized by groups and individuals demanding respect for the Constitution, Clinton called them "unpatriotic." Then he waved the flag and, in true blockhead fashion, said: "No one can be patriotic or pretend to love his country and despise his government."

This is terrifying, since, from one moment to the next, it can include the majority of the people. I view this from another perspective. In 1939, could a German have considered unpatriotic for detesting Nazis? Black Tuesday is already exerting considerable pressure on our society, pushing it to become more militarized.

--------

Comments?
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JailBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
1. Clinton sold us out to the World Trade Corporation. He sold our
schools out to corporations through his sinister Goals 2000 campaign and publicly supported the late Seattle Schools Superintendent John Stanford, arguably the biggest abomination in the history of public education. Bush might not be pResident today if Clinton had done more for campaign reform. He finished his term by pardoning international crooks, while leaving Peltier to rot in jail.

I liked Clinton in the beginning, though I knew virtually nothing about national politics when he first got elected. He obviously has some talents that make George W. Bush look like a training wheel in comparison. I'd much prefer four more years of Clinton to four years of Bush.

But let's be honest - America's decline was merely masked by all the fast money that floated around during Clinton's term. The roots of the decline extend back far beyond Clinton, accelerated greatly at the end of his second term, then went into a freefall under George W. Bush.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Thanks for your thoughts.
I really do wonder why this article by Vidal wasn't circulated by the left sites I read.

I saw a few that concentrated on Bush, but this one was conspicuously absent. Maybe I just missed it. Hopefully.
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Don't forget NAFTA and the DMCA
and look how they've been abused to further the profit of elite big-corporations at the expense of consumer FREEDOM. That's more than enough for me...
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Wwagsthedog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
2. Be proud redqueen
You are facilitating revisionism.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Revisionism?
How exactly is this revisionism?

Did Clinton not sign that anti-terrorism bill?

Is Vidal lying?

By all means, if I'm wrong, tell me.

I don't want to believe it's true. I really don't.
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toddzilla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Clinton was not a good president in many regards..
I'm sorry but i just don't buy into the whole "clinton is god" thing...

he did many good things, but also many bad things. he was not a democrat in the majority of his actions.

When we re-examine history to find the truth, and not just pretend whatever is "common belief" we are not engaging in revisionism, but seeking to find out what really happened.


Some things need revision, the winner writes history, but the good guy rarely wins lately.

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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. This sums up my main concern, here.
"he was not a democrat in the majority of his actions."

I am increasingly disturbed by how much we're hearing the anti-left, pro-centrist meme.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Clinton was the reason
that most of the people I knew came within one or two days of voting Green in 2000 but chickened out because of Bush's sheer awfulness. I didn't know anyone who was actually enthusiastic about Gore except as an antidote to Bush.The most avid proponent was an attorney who voted for Gore because she didn't want Bush to appoint Supreme Court justicies, even though she was lukewarm otherwise.

For the past twenty years, the Republicans have pushed with 100 pounds of force, and the Dems have either simply collapsed or pushed back with a mere 20 pounds of force. This was true even when they held both houses of Congress, as in Reagan's first term.

If enough Dems had fought back in 1980-84, instead of going along with Reagan's worship of tax cuts and fancy weaponry, we'd be in a better place than we are today, and the next Democratic president would not have so much of a mess to clear up.


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blackwalnut Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. Very true!
For the past twenty years, the Republicans have pushed with 100 pounds of force, and the Dems have either simply collapsed or pushed back with a mere 20 pounds of force. This was true even when they held both houses of Congress, as in Reagan's first term.

This has happened so many other times as well . . . One instance of many:

I remember during the beginning of Clinton's first term. Bruce Babbit got big-media attention for proclaiming his huge disappointment over the democratically controlled congress's voting to renew that old law which allows folks to buy public land at bargain basement prices if they can claim that they intend to mine it for precious minerals. (This law was started back during U.S. Grant's term in office -- but I forget it's actual name. Perhaps the "1876 mining law"??? or something like that.) It is this law that has allowed huge mining companies to buy land for a few hundred or thousand dollars that contain billions of dollars in minerals and precious metals. Babbit was angry because of the practical giveaway of public land, and naturally also because of the abuse and pollution of the land by by big mining companies, which like to use chemicals like cyanide to extract gold, and to scorch the earth with big machinery. I've even seen some conservative papers that have railed against the law since it was a "budget buster." Yet, Clinton (as I recall) remained mum on the subject -- despite Babbit being his Secretary of the Interior, and receiving major attention on the nightly news for his honest and beautiful statement. After that, Babbitt never seemed to have all that much "fire" left in him, capitulating (it seemed to me) to what he felt was apparently the inevitable.

But where big business prowls, both parties often capitulate.

Naturally this demo capitulation to the "big boys" can also be seen in regard to issues like the School of the Americas. Although the democratic minority, starting with former Rep. Joe Kennedy, have tried hard to abolish this abomination, Clinton and Gore have always stated publicly that they support its existence! Insane!
Maybe they should have started an organization called "Democrats against Democracy!" or "Hurrah for Organized, U. S. Taxpayer Funded Murder And Torture of Peasents, Priests and Children etc.!"

And we musn't forget Clinton's "Plan Colombia"!! Or his almost total support (up until near the end of his second term) for aid to the Indonesian military, which was busy committing genocide against the East Timorese! (He did change completely on that one, however, even attending an important East Timorese function -- I think it may have been their first inauguration -- after Bush had defeated Gore, and he was no longer in office.)

Also -- to Clinton's credit -- at least rhetorically -- he both apologized to the Hawaiian people for the U. S. taking over their land via force, and to the Guatemalan people for the U. S. overthrow of the democratically elected President Arbenz back in the fifties, and the subsequent U.S. covert support of the fascist governments there for the next several decades afterward. (See former Ambassador to El Salvador, Robert White's article on my web page at http://www.geocities.com/polemical506/zpic2.html

Scroll down a little until you see the buttons that read "article." Each button is a different scanned page of the article, with the top button being the first page, the next button down being the second page etc. etc.)

Nor should we forget Clinton's near total support for the Drug War (though it must be stated that during his administration, he did allow one improvement -- a little more discretion at the local level for small drug offenses, rather than having to follow a rigid mandantory minimum policy.).

Better than Bush -- yes, absolutely, no question at all!! But unfortunately, not good enough really, for me. by a long shot.

Of course, I sympathize with those who feel that being too idealistic or "radical" only throws the election toward types like Bush -- but what they don't remember is that compromising has never really worked before either, to wit:

LBJ escalated the Vietnam conflict like crazy, and sent troops to protect the big sugar interests in the Dominican Republic, and told the Greek ambassador that their constituion and democracy could go to heck (expletive substituted), despite his having done incredible work for the civil rights movement.

President Carter, despite being great for the environment (such as the OSHA hearings that took place during his administration on vinyl chloride monomer), nonetheless argued against his Democratic leaders in Congress in favor of aid to the military dictatorship in Argentina, and also supported the Indonesian military and dictatorship. Maybe Carter should started an organization called "Democrats who like the protect the environment and the rights of workers and citzins against noxious chemcials, but who like to murder innocent citizens abroad, even though they have never done anything to hurt anyone, more or less."

No, we need something better than the same ole same ole, that's for sure. But is it possible?? That is the agonizing question! Or must we compromise and favor someone like Gore over Kucinich or Nader? My mind refuses to believe that we must compromise! We must overcome!! AHHHHHH!



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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 05:25 PM
Response to Original message
8. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. No need for namecalling.
Edited on Thu Nov-13-03 05:38 PM by redqueen
If opening your eyes screws up your night, perhaps you should do away with the half-measures and just go ahead and stick your head all the way into ... the sand.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
9. Defending Clinton has never been a good strategy
Edited on Thu Nov-13-03 05:32 PM by rucky
but comparing Bush & Clinton is ridiculous.

Clinton's expansion of executive power should never have been abused as blatantly at Bush has done.

Clinton may have opened the door for this, but it is still the responsibility of every leader - and citizen - to NOT abuse the laws we have created. The Republicans are constantly looking for ways to subvert the system for thier own personal gain, and they get away with it because we fail to make our laws airtight against abuses.

I have a car. it's my car. If I leave it unlocked and somebody takes my stereo, is it my fault because I left the car unlocked?
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Vidal has made the comparison, not I
Regardless, if you'll note, the problem that I hope to address is that by continuing to follow the march rightward, we are not doing ourselves or anyone else any favors.
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rucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. A-men to that, sistah!
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Thanks.
Good to know I'm not alone, even if I am in the minority. :)
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maggrwaggr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
15. What does Clinton have to do with Bush? Nothing.
Why do people fall into that trap? That's a republican tactic. Complain about Bush and they say "Well Clinton ... blah blah blah".

Why even go there?

Bush is scum, he's a liar, he's a war criminal, a war profiteer and the worst president EVER and it doesn't have a DAMN thing to do with Clinton!
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Clinton is not the point.
Centrists are.

No one is saying Clinton is as bad as Bush. No one is blaming Clinton for everything that's wrong in this country.

The whole point of this thread is to get people to acknowledge that part of the reason this country is so fecking screwed up is because we Democrats have allowed our party to drift ever rightward over the course of the last 30 odd years.

Seeing the thread re: Citigroup's confidence wrt budget cuts in '05, I'm not encouraged that our next President, whomever that might be (Dem OR Rep) will disappoint them.
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maggrwaggr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. Clinton: best republican president ever
sorta says it all.

I agree, the Dems are in the state they're in largely due to lack of leadership.

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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
17. It's the difference between driving off a cliff at 120 mph...
or just slowing down to a more reasonable 55 without changing direction.

Your assessment of the disappointment of the Clinton presidency is one that is shared by many here, although it also can tend to elicit flames from those among us who are engaged in the cult of personality that seems to surround the former President. While there is no way that one can compare Clinton's Presidency to the sheer criminality of the Bush Administration, it was far from a counterweight in the opposite direction. And its net result was that, through its policies of "triangulation" and centrism without principle, it precipitated an even FURTHER drift to the right in the political theatre.
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snoochie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
19. Boy is this an eye opener. n/t
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sweetheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
20. clinton set bad precedents
Firstly by attacking unilaterally sudan, and pursuing support of what has turned out to be a full scale ethinic cleansing of kosovo (kla cleaning out serbs with american support).

He used demographic databases very effectively in bypassing congress and taking issues straight to public opinion... and now with that precedent, we have a far more sinister force behind the wheel.

I loathed clinton. Jerry brown was to clinton as Kucinich is to lieberman. Clinton did not leave much of a legacy as he did not legislate as much as use executive orders which were all overturned the instant the scammer walked out of office.

He was a smart president, in covering his own ass, but not one who advanced any real cause or left any legacy worthy of his big ego. Blair has equally sold out and screwed up the labour party in britain that the entire political dynamic is destabilized by him ignoring his core support base for the base of the other party. He is loathed in britain as much as i loathed clinton back during his scam-presidency in the US.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
22. Clinton was a great president...
Edited on Thu Nov-13-03 10:59 PM by Darranar
he simply was hassled for years by a right-wing Congress and a right-wing media.

He did make some mistakes, however.

No, that's too soft.

Clinton was a despicable president who continued the inhumanitarian sanctions on Iraq, aided multinational corporations by agreeing to NAFTA, hardly fought them to any real extent, and betrayed the nation's poor with welfare "reform".

But in comparison to Reagan and Bush, he was an excellent president. He worked to undo a lot of the damage they had caused, and for that he deserves tremendous acclaim. The fact that he was buffeted by the right-wing establishment for his entire administration, which finally culminated into a failed coup attempt, shows how much they despised him for doing so.

We must never forget what they did to Clinton, who was most certainly no radical, for trying to bring common-sense solutions to several of our country's glaring problems. They will not be any kinder towards a more left-wing candidate.

Any Dem, no matter how corrupt, no matter how "centrist" and "moderate", no matter how pro-corporate, is better then the radical right-wing Republicans they're throwing at us.

I'd take DLC over RNC any day.

We must stand united against them. The alternatives are too horrible to avoid doing so.

Which would you prefer? A militaristic corporate police state, or simply a corporate "democracy" of the sort that exists today?
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tom_paine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-13-03 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
23. Interesting article, if a little disjointed.
Perhaps it's the translation...

:thumbsup:
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