Why do 2 of the only 3 candidates I like support flag burning amend.? :(

[Some Moran]

Clark and Kucinich do, and I'm unsure on Dean.

[dobak]

1. don't worry about it...

While it does bother me a bit that they support it, I really think their support is only in words - "politician talk"

I don't think either one would go out of their way at all to help pass it.

(edit: spelling)

[Some Moran]

3. Kucinich voted aye, but I guess you're right...

I don't think you'll be taken seriously as a presidential candidate if your campaign is centred around flag burning.

Though I'm sure a few Repukes won't mind trying a "fag burning" ("fag" being used as their slur, not mine) campaign in some states.

[Eric J in MN]

4. Dean said he doesn't want a Constitutional amendment for that (nt)

nt

[blm]

27. But Dean agrees with Congress on protecting the flag.

That means JAIL, whether there is an amendment or not.

Protecting the flag by legal means = Jail.

[Phatfish]

2. i wouldn't think to much into it

I know the position is important to some people but short of Osama bin Laden going up on the Capitol steps and setting "Ol' Glory" ablaze, the admendment will never pass.

[Dookus]

5. luckily....

Presidents have absolutely nothing to do with constitutional amendments.

Furthermore, this amendment is going nowhere. It's a stupid right-wing ploy to try to paint Democrats as un-American.

[neebob]

6. Okay, so I'm not point-for-point with Kucinich

and I'm disappointed to learn Clark also thinks it's a good idea to punish people for burning a piece of cloth. That's just stupid.

[Dookus]

7. I agree...

I'm disappointed in Clark, too.

But in the end, I realize he has NOTHING to do with such an amendment, so his support or non-support is moot. I still think he's the most liberal viable candidate in the race.

[DemBones DemBones]

8. Well, I know that Kucinich has an old-fashioned sort of patriotism,

and that's not really a bad thing. Dennis and I went to school together (only he was in Cleveland the whole time and I never was, if you catch my meaning.) When you grew up right after WW II and Naziism, with the new threat of Russia and The Bomb, and your dad was a veteran, you grew up singing patriotic songs, pledging allegiance to the flag every day in school, probably being a Boy Scout or Girl Scout and learning proper flag etiquette, and just generally believing that the United States was special, kind of on a mission from God. You were proud to be an American. If you didn't grow up in those times, you probably have difficulty understanding this, but I think it explains Kucinich's and Clark's position on the flag. The amendment actually addresses flag desecration, not just burning.

Dissent is important but dissent is possible without making a show of public disrespect for important symbols such as the flag or the cross. Our culture is at a point where respect is rarely shown for anyone or anything and I don't think we are more free because of these attitudes, just meaner, unhappier, more cynical. I'm sorry kids can no longer grow up feeling proud to be Americans and seeing the American flag as a symbol of goodness. Flying the flag upside down as a sign that the nation is in distress is a powerful symbolic action that doesn't indicate disrespect for the flag. Disrespect for the flag indicates disrespect for the nation and the nation as a whole doesn't deserve it. It's better to focus on particular things that are wrong.

Of course I know that burning is the proper way to dispose of a flag that is torn or badly soiled. And I understand the symbolism of burning a flag in protest. But it's excessive, just as sticking flags on every possible surface to show patriotism or "support our troops" is excessive. Patriotism has been tainted by the excesses of some extremists who believe themselves to be patriots. I don't think it helps those who dissent against a current administration to engage in excesses just because the phony "super-patriots" have.

We can love our country and still criticize it when necessary. We often talk about the importance of respecting other peoples' cultures and symbols but we need to have our own symbols that we respect. Not worship, just respect.

(Why do I have a feeling I'll get flamed for saying we should love our country and not desecrate its flag? What strange changes we've gone through.)

[VermontDem2004]

9. The US Flag is a piece of cloth

When will the US introduce amendment against the burning of Canadian, Islam, Mexico, France, etc flags? You know we have those people in this country. I can't believe people actually tried to make it illegal to burn a piece of cloth. Listen, I love this country and I would like to see it vastly improve but I have no problem with people burning a piece of cloth with colors on it as long as they don't damage public property. I have no urge to flame a flag, but if others do it should be their right.

[KFC]

29. A cross is a piece of wood

I think burning a cross is illegal, and it should be.

It's the symbol that is important, not what it is made of.

That said, I don't think flag burning is a major issue. Certainly not big enough to merit a constitutional amendment.

[rucky]

10. As long as we're legislating against "excessive & unpatriotic displays....

How many more hours of pointless republican debate are there left?

[Bread and Circus]

18. It's kind of weird that even though I am against flag burn ban...

It makes me think better of Kucinich that he supports it
and upset that Clark supports it.

It's weird I have a different reaction to two different people
that think the same thing.

[reachout]

25. Disappointed in Kucinich

He clearly doesn't have the commitment to free speech I thought he did. I may now have to vote for Dean in the primary. For me, supporting Kucinich was always a matter of principle. If he's this weak on the first amendment though, I may as well go with the practical choice.

I'm with Carlin on this one. "The American flag is a symbol, and I say we leave the symbols to the symbol-minded."

[w4rma]

11. Dean is for a flag burning law/wouldn’t change U.S. Constitution for flag

Dean is for a flag burning law
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=693435

Dean wouldn’t change U.S. Constitution for flag
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=693609

[blm]

28. Flag burning law = Jail. Don't pretend Dean is right.

.

[Mairead]

12. Please folks, it's not about flag BURNING, it's about flag DESECRATION

Burning is the canonical way to destroy a flag. EVEN IF the Amendment were to pass the states, which it's hardly likely to do, one could still stand out in public and burn a flag in protest. Burning is not desecration.

Rubbing shite onto the flag would be desecration. Peeing on it would be. Throwing it on the ground and dancing on it would probably be. Dipping it in blood might be.

But burning would not be.

[MercutioATC]

15. Actually, I believe it would.

Solemnly burning a flag to "retire" it has always been acceptable. However, burning it in protest is still considered desecration, I believe. Ironically, the flag isn't supposed to be used in advertising, either, but nobody seems too intent on enforcing that rule.

It's all about intent. It's not illegal to perform surgery, but "I was performing surgery" is not a valid defense for stabbing somebody on the street. I just think it'd be difficult to convince a judge that you were burning a flag to legitimately retire it in the middle of a protest rally...

[Mairead]

16. Intent's a bugger to prove

Your stabbing someone is a bit off the wall, as I'm sure you'll agree -- surgery is never carried on ad-hoc in the middle of the street, so there's a presumption there of evil intent.

But a declaration along the lines of 'I am destroying this flag to save it from being abused by the slimeballs who are killing children in Iraq' (or similar) followed by a clean burning would be very hard to re-cast as 'desecration'. I mean, how would you get there to begin with? Claim the context of a Constitutionally-protected event is inherently desecratory?

[MercutioATC]

26. Agreed. I think it'd come down to the judge (or jury) you wound up with.

I just think that, in the middle of a protest march, a jury might have a problem believing you were "saving" the flag rather than desecrating it.

[PVnRT]

31. Wrong

It will be twisted to include burning in a manner not "honorable" or some such bullshit language that the Republicans will add in.

[union_maid]

13. I'm disappointed, too

Not to the point of changing my support. I still think that Clark is the best person for the job in this particular decade, but it's the first thing he's said that I've really had a problem with. Flag desecration is political speech. I don't think I should be able to desecrate someone else's flag, but if I purchase one and if no other laws are broken, such as would likely be the case in any public burning of anything, then I should be able to desecrate it. Not that I'm going to. I'm not. But is that flag with the peace symbol instead of stars that we've still got somewhere desecration? Is plastering the flag on decals, t-shirts, hats, credit cards, ad nauseum, desecration? Is using stars and stripes as an advertising gimmick desecration? I'd like to know.

[OldSoldier]

19. RWers desecrate the flag too

We have two colleges in town, and one of them is Christian.

A couple years ago, one of the art students at the Christian one painted an American flag; instead of stars, it had fifty little golden crosses.

If that's not desecration, it's an usurpation of the separation of church and state. But the guy got all sorts of praise for his "edgy" art.

[bleedingheart]

14. its a piece of cloth

its the meaning behind it that is important...so while all these boobs are worried about the burning of a piece of cloth it doesn't seem to matter that our rights are being taken away from us.

What I want to hear about is the repeal of the Patriot Act...

[Mairead]

17. "What I want to hear about is the repeal of the Patriot Act"

Then Dennis Kucinich is the guy you want to listen to!

[Spider Jerusalem]

20. If that amendment is ever passed...

I'm going to buy a gross of flags, drive to DC, and have a barbecue on the Mall (and any REAL American would do the same, damn it!).

[OldSoldier]

21. I would prefer they say they support it

Anything we can do to take away George Bush's ability to turn bullshit into a campaign issue is good.

I want a candidate who goes to a Christian church--it eliminates Bush's ability to say our guy wants to stop you from praying.

I want a candidate who says he supports the flag burning amendment--it eliminates Bush's ability to say our guy is unpatriotic.

I want a candidate who can defuse all of George's hot button non-issues and get to the root of the problem: George Bush doesn't have the economic skills to manage the Blinds and Wallpaper department at a lumberyard, he allowed 9/11 to happen the way it did by (at minimum) not getting some fighters up right after the first tower was hit, and he started an illegal war.

[Pompitous_Of_Love]

22. Because...

they have not been properly educated about their constitutional right to keep and bear fire extinguishers.

[HFishbine]

23. Ironically

Since the president would have no vote on a constitutional amendment, and since Kucinich does as a congress person, if you elect Special K to the presidency, you take away one vote in favor of the amendment.

But, if you think the president can use the power of the office to lobby one way or another, perhaps you should vote for Dean.

[zeemike]

24. Because they are afraid not to

And that is a fact because they have conceded the moral argument to the repugs.
It seems that demos don’t want to make a moral argument for anything, as if the only one that counts is the logical one. And I understand that this is just a reaction to the other side always making the moral argument, an they respond like a Pavlov dog to a bell.
Every issue has a morality defense or rational, and so is the flag burning.
As long as someone is burning or even pissing on his own flag on his own property he is exercising his right to freedom of expression. And those that feel strong about freedom should put on notice that if such a law were passed they would feel an obligation to commit civil disobedience and disrespect an unconstitutional law.
But what politician has the guts to do that?

[blm]

34. Good answer. Odd that they want protestors jailed.

Protecting the flag = Jail for flag protestors.

[joshan361]

30. ..."if the American people support it"

that is his quote about the flag burning issue , read more here.

http://www.cmonitor.com/stories/news/local2003/clark_111403_2003.shtml

[southpaw]

32. Simpsons On Flag Burning

check it out...

http://www.esquilax.com/flag/amendmnt.mp3

[gottaB]

33. Why not broaden your horizons?

Braun, Edwards, Kerry.