Crime

[jiacinto]

I really want to talk about this issue. Why is that I should feel sympathy for the people who robbed me and mugged me because we live in a "racist society"?

Today I was driving and paying the Fed Ex Ground Delivery person several hundred dollars. And I think about crime. What would most people here say. If it didn't happen to me they would say that these thugs were all "victims of an economically unfair system". They would go on and on about how it's our fault that they have to resort to crime.

I speakl here because this is an issue where many on the left don't understand the point. People don't want to be told why these peoples' crimes and their decision to commit crime is "thier fault". I understand the inequalities in society, but does it give these predators who stole my stuff and mugged me the right to harm me and take my property?

What I find even more astounding is that people are more concerned about their precious right to vote than whether I get compensated for what happened to me. It's like the rights of the filth who are felons matter more than mine as an upstanding, good American citizen who works and plays by the rules.

[IranianDemocrat]

1. I completely agree.

Whatever injustice you're mugger might have experienced in his life, doesn't justify the pain that he's caused you.

[ulysses]

2. I've been waiting for this.

Why is that I should feel sympathy for the people who robbed me and mugged me because we live in a "racist society"?

Leading question. No one is suggesting that you "sympathize" with the individuals who robbed you. Might it not be the case, though, that the existence of living-wage jobs that aren't exclusive of minorities could reduce crime? (edited to note that the existence of living-wage jobs period, even those that are exclusive of minorities, could reduce crime. Crime is not racial.)

I understand the inequalities in society

No you don't. Not really. Neither do I for that matter, but I realize that.

What I find even more astounding is that people are more concerned about their precious right to vote than whether I get compensated for what happened to me.

Should a mugger be deprived for life of his rights of citizenship?

[ulysses]

51. I'm still interested in knowing

whether or not a mugger should be deprived for life of the right to vote.

[WeirdSceneGoldmine]

71. Should a mugger be deprived for life of his rights of citizenship?

Yes, if the mugee was an innocent and honest person that worked hard for that which was taken from him. Any person that harms another that is not guilty of any wrong deserves a lifetime of restitution to his victims.

[ulysses]

79. really?

What if the "mugee" was only honest to a degree, but had, maybe, shoplifted once in his youth? What if he stole office supplies from his employer? Does that mitigate the lifetime of penance to be bestowed upon his "predator"?

Utter bullshit.

[WeirdSceneGoldmine]

95. Muggers get no slack

There is no excuse for mugging a fellow human. The thought process that a mugger must use to decide if he will destroy another humans life is broken and must be fixed before they ever are allowed back into society.

If someone can justify another persons reason for mugging they should look inside themselves for their own broken human connections.

[ulysses]

103. so answer the question.

Assume that mugger A is caught, prosecuted, and sent to prison. Serves his time and is released.

Should mugger A never regain his right to vote? That's what at issue here.

[buddhamama]

107. i have a question about this myself

is there a difference between a mugger and a thief, and what exactly makes the mugger's crime more heinous than the thief's. what's the differnce?

[Nikia]

126. A mugger is worse

In that he threatens or hurts another person in order to steal. Usually, a thief refers to someone who steals without hurting or threatening anyone. That is my understanding anyway. I'd rather be victimized by a thief rather than a mugger.

[JanMichael]

117. Why do I sense a Jean Valjean moment here?

le Miserables?

[ulysses]

119. are we casting for Javert?

:D

[catzies]

3. While I do deplore what happened to you,

You make me think of the old joke that "A conservative is a liberal who got mugged."

At my old apartment complex, a few years ago, some crackhead kid jumped over the fence once a week and broke into all our cars one by one. I was the only one who filed a police report and they caught the kid and made him pay me restitution. I got one check for $10. That was it. Life goes on.

But when you said, "What I find even more astounding is that people are more concerned about their precious right to vote than whether I get compensated for what happened to me. " I hope that's coming from your righteous anger and that you won't always feel that way.

[XanaDUer]

4. Carlos

you have been through a lot, and I really think you need to pursue some type of counseling once you settle down and feel safe.

Now, as for disenfranchised voters. Many people who are disenfranchised are non-violent offenders, many of whom are minorities, for the many complex reasons that minorities are at a disadvantage.

That, however, in no way justifies any one sticking a gun in anyone's face, terrorizing them, raping them, or molesting them.

I have been the victim of crime numerous times. Yet, I still support offenders' rights to vote ONCE THEY HAVE SERVED THEIR FULL SENTENCE. Why? Because it tends to make a mockery of the Constituion when people are forever punished for crimes they have served their debt to society for.

Never mind the fact that felons' voting disenfranchisement is just another way to skew voting in favor, usually , of Republicans.

I think you are still traumatized by what happened to you. Take care of yourself.

PS-these laws are also nothing more than Jim Crow laws to keep minorities and the poor from voting. Simple as that.

And yes, I take the right to vote as being precious, because it is.

[La_Serpiente]

5. I guess one way to look at it

is that in order to change the system, there would be a long term approach to changing the structural mechanics of society. Not everyone has the advantage of upward mobility.

I don't know, this is a hard topic. Perhaps you should write to Auntie Pinko for this one. :-)


But all I have to say is that you should not walk away from this experience until you have learned from it. I know, it is the theif that needs the lesson, but we all have to understand the things that happens to us. It is good that you are asking questions instead of simply reacting.

[tkmorris]

6. I hear you but.....

I think you are misunderstanding what many Leftists are saying on a fundamental level. You ask, "but does it give these predators who stole my stuff and mugged me the right to harm me and take my property?" . The answer is obviously no, it does not. You seem however to feel as if there are a number of people on the left who DO believe that economic and/or social disadvantages is an acceptable excuse for crime.

I don't believe that and you would be hard-pressed to find a Liberal that does. What I believe is that while the criminal behavior is unacceptable and must be dealt with reducing the levels of crime commited by such people is not as simple as locking them up. You must deal with the underlying problems in poorer neighborhoods. You have to deal with a prison system which does little to nothing to rehabilitate its denizens, instead teaching them to be better criminals. You have to deal with social inequities that foster that feeling of helplessness so prevalent in poor minority neighborhoods. And on and on.

It isn't an apologists position. It is merely an acknowledgement that solving the problem takes a bit more than looking down our collective nose at people who have less than us and demanding justice when they victimize us. Like most problems in life, it aint that simple.

[DrWeird]

7. Why do you think black people commit more crime, Carlos?

Answer that question please.

[Forkboy]

9. There's a strange undercurrent

to many of his posts,even before this.

[DrWeird]

12. This is the same person...

who has said that Michael Jordan's success is proof that black people have it easy...

and...

It's acceptable for white patients to kick black people out of maternity wards.

So I'd like to know if he thinks black people commit more crimes because they are a bunch of criminal lowlifes.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DrWeird]

18. That's exactly what you said Carlos.

I'll swear my immortal soul on it.

Just because you said something racist and embarassing doesn't mean you get to deny it.

[jiacinto]

20. I didn't say that about Micahel Jordan

And again, regarding the maternity ward incident, what I said was:

I don't agree with the decision. However, if they were were worried about creating a scene that would impact the patient's health, I can understand why it was made.

Now you are stretching the truth. I never attacked Michael Jordan.

[DrWeird]

21. You didn't attack Michael Jordan. You said...

his success was proof that blacks have equal opportunity.

And you apologized for the hospital who forcibly removed black hospital employees because a white man didn't want black people around his pregnant wife.

[jiacinto]

23. No I didn't

Again you are smearing me on this board.

[DrWeird]

25. Yes, in fact you did.

A search will show it. There are, I believe, common posters here who can also corraborate me.

Why don't you just admit it now instead of digging yourself deeper. And could you please answer the questions.

[jiacinto]

29. I didn't say that

If you can produce the post then I'll retract it. But I still think you're smearing me.

[DrWeird]

30. Yes, Carlo, you did.

And while I haven't got time or patience for an exhaustive search of DU archives, I have got my balls and my word.

And my word says that you said both those things. And although I'm sarcastic, and arguementative, and Weird, I am not no fucking liar.

[jiacinto]

31. Show it then

If I said something about Michael Jordan and it was clearly "racist" then I will retarict it.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jiacinto]

36. I would never go to a Klan rally

And you have no right to call me a racist.

[Andy_Stephenson]

129. He doesn't smear you...

You do a fine job all by yourself.

[Shakespeare]

43. You're right. He most certainly said both of those things.

I saw it, too.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Shakespeare]

48. Oh, so now you're attacking my post count?

Carlos, a person could be here from day one and have a very low post count. Don't even go there.

[Alenne]

45. I saw the maternity ward post

because I actually confronted him about it.

[jiacinto]

49. And again I clarified it

But you all continuet to misconstrue it. It's because you don't like me and have it out for me.

[Shakespeare]

No, Carlos.

It's not because we're "out to get you."

Your statement was not misconstrued. You have to stop assuming that anyone who disagrees with you hates you. That is bizarre.

[jiacinto]

55. There is a core group of DUers who has been after me since I joined the

site

[Heddi]

64. "after you'---

could it be that you are a very vocal poster, and very prolific in your opinions, therefore, it SEEMS that people 'hate you' and are 'after you' when in reality they're 'disagreeing with you' and 'debating with you'?

Look--I'm not being down on you. I think it sucks being a victim of crime. Having been a victim of crime myself, I know that it's easy to project feelings onto other people.

Anger is an 'acceptable' human emotion. It's easier to show Anger when we really mean to show sadness, or embarassment, or grief.

You really need to get your priorities in life straightened out. Right now, instead of posting on DU, you really should be talking to a councelor who is specially trained in talking with people who have just experienced traumatic events. Crime related events.

You feel violated, you feel alone, you feel vunerable.

But don't take that out on us.

No one here ever said that WE (collective DU'ers) felt more sympathy towards your assailants than they did towards you.

In fact, I think I did my best a few weeks ago to give you advice on your job situation. I traded many emails with you and did my best to help you, even though numerous times in the past you've called me a Nader Worshiper (even though I voted for gore), and a fringe leftist, and you've mocked myself and others who fight for issues that YOU disagree with.

But I put the personal political disagreements aside and helped you--AS A HUMAN BEING---

But you're not even able to do that. Is it so beyond you to look beyond the political spectrum and see people for PEOPLE? To understand that just because someone has disagreed with you in the past that they don't necessarily "hate you"?

Look--I gave you words of advice, and you never even said thank you.

All the time recently you've been posting your "woe is me" stories, people who appear in this thread (and that you accuse of HATING YOU) ALSO gave you words of advice (hardly something that someone who "hated you" would do) and you never even said Thank You.

So many people have come out and offered you sympathy, and you can't even say THANK YOU.

Perhaps that's why so many people are 'after you' or 'hate you' or 'disagree with you'?

Can you not remove the political and just talk about things, look at things, rationalize things as a HUMAN BEING? Must everything be 'far fringe leftists" and 'Ralph Nader Appologists" and "Michael Moore Worshipers'?

Can't we just be PEOPLE trying to help you out, who are getting FRUSTRATED by your snide attitude--that somehow you're OWED our sympathy, our help, our words of kindness?

Brother, you're not owed ANYTHING. And you need to stop acting like you're entitled to some special treatment because you're Carlos Jiacinto.

There are people here who are permanently disabled. Who have been raped. Whose family members have been murdered or assaulted. Who have been out of a job for YEARS. Who have been closer to homelessness than you'll ever know.

They are GRATEFUL for the kind wishes and advice they're given. They don't act ENTITLED. They don't take the words for granted.

LISTEN to what people are telling you. HEAR the message they're sending you. REFLECT upon the type of person you are, and the type of person you want to be.

There is a message here. It's up to you to listen to it.

[jiacinto]

65. I have said thank you

I always keep the personal issues separated from the political debate. I assume everyone does.

[Heddi]

74. Bullshit. You never said thank you to me

and you never said thank you to a majority of the people who responded to you in your threads entitled

I hate my job
I hate my life
Why me
I was robbed
I was burgled
Nothing's working out for me
Why me
Why am I the only person on the face of the planet who has ever had anything bad happen to them

ad nauseum

[jiacinto]

75. I did say thank you

I have said thank you.

[Heddi]

80. Funny, I have the PM's you sent me

when you were bitching about your job.

I've re-read every one of them, and there is not a single "thank you" involved there.

So will you retract your words and at least ADMIT that you haven't said THANK YOU to everyone who deserved it?

I can't believe I'm not the only one who has been neglected simple respect on your behalf.

[jiacinto]

84. I have said thank you to some people

If I forgot to say thank you to you I apologize.

[Forkboy]

123. nevermind

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Andy_Stephenson]

130. Paranioa will destroy you carlos.

truly it will.

[Alenne]

58. That is just stupid

You are not in high school anymore so stop acting like it. I don't dislike you or have it out for you. Sometimes I think you are not aware or don't care how your post come across. Maybe you should read what you write before you press the post message button.

[dsc]

63. Hate to say this but even you admit here that you misquoted him

in the first of these posts you claim he said that Blacks have it easy. Now you are saying he said they have equal opportunity. Those are radically different statements. Assuming you stand behind this statement then he is right that the first one misquoted him.

[jiacinto]

66. Thank you

He is distroting me.

[DrWeird]

96. See post #37

equal opportunity- having it as easy as white people, i.e. racism doesn't exist. Better?

[dsc]

105. It was this statement Carlos took issue with

who has said that Michael Jordan's success is proof that black people have it easy...


and I stand behind the idea that is radically different than saying blacks have equal opportunity. Incidenly I don't agree with the second statement either but the issue here is whether Carlos said the first statement and even you are saying now that he didn't.

[DrWeird]

108. It was a paraphrase.

And a valid one. The argument was that blacks are disenfranchised and have it tough do to societal racism. Carlos chimed in and said no they don't michael jordan is proof that they that racism doesn't exist.

[dsc]

114. I really don't agree

The first statement "blacks have it easy" means that blacks have it better than whites.

The second statement "blacks have equal opportunity" means they have it equal to whites.

Those are different things.

[DrWeird]

121. Fine.

blacks have it as easy as whites. Better?

[CatWoman]

37. oh yes you did!!!!!!!!!!!

I remember!!!!!!

I can testify!!!!!!!!

I remember especially because I just couldn't believe someone who is supposed to be "progressive" said something like that.

[Shakespeare]

38. He'll never admit it.

And even if you show him his own words in black and white, he'll claim you're misconstruing his statement and that you hate him and that it's a personal attack.

I have never in my entire life seen anybody so incapable of looking inward. I never know whether to find that fascinating or just disturbing.

[Forkboy]

39. I vote for disturbing

[jiacinto]

40. Isn't it intersting

that the ones clamiing the worst about me are the ones who hate me the most?

[Shakespeare]

42. You're projecting.

Hate is a very strong word, Carlos. You have no way of knowing what my feelings are about you (but believe me, they're much closer to pity than they are to anything even remotely hostile).

And that you see no problem with projecting such things on other people speaks volumes.

[Andy_Stephenson]

131. Amen!

could have not said it better myself. I don't hate carlos...but it is fun to watch him spin.

[Forkboy]

46. Not as interesting as your own words

[buddhamama]

52. and you reacted in the manner predicted

but, no, none of us know anything about you.

[WeirdSceneGoldmine]

93. Enough already!

How about someone provide a link to the accused words and we stop the speculation. All the accusers here have stars and therefore search (I'll have mine when the Money Order gets to homebase) ability. Archives rarely lie and it way past time to pull up the evidence.

[jonnyblitz]

28. except this post is pretty blatent. and upfront with

what is implied. nothing "undercurrent" about it.

[jiacinto]

11. I never said that they did

nt

[DrWeird]

13. More black people are in prison than white. And you know it.

So give us your explanation, please.

[_Jumper_]

15. The "War on Drugs"

Let's not forget that the black share of the prison population is inflated by the "War on Drugs" which targets blacks (most people in prison for nonviolent drug offenses are black), even though most drug users are white.

[DrWeird]

19. Hence the "racist society"

But I want to know what Carlos' explanation is.

[La_Serpiente]

26. Perhaps

this is something that Jiancito can learn from. If it is true that Jiancito did say that (which I am not saying he did, I am just using it as an example) maybe we can find out the root of all of this.

Like I said earlier Jiancito, don't let this cloud your judgement. Just don't avoid it, that's all i have to say.

[Beaker]

35. Not True.

http://www.bop.gov/fact0598.html#Race

INMATES BY RACE

White: 96,785 (56.4%)

Black: 69,359 (40.4%)

Asian: 2,721 (1.6%)

Native
American: 2,697 (1.6%)


However-
when you look at it in numbers of percentages per race, the story is a lot different-

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm

At yearend 2002 there were 3,437 sentenced black male prisoners per 100,000 black males in the United States, compared to 1,176 sentenced Hispanic male inmates per 100,000 Hispanic males and 450 white male inmates per 100,000 white males.

[welshTerrier2]

8. no one should excuse crimes against individuals

first, i was sorry to hear about your recent problems ...

but i think that your anger at those who see so many injustices in society may be misplaced ...

i do not excuse crime, especially crimes against individuals, just because the perpetrator is economically disadvantaged ... that's a bullshit excuse ... just because you're hurting doesn't give you an excuse to hurt other people ...

so, point one is that there is no excusing those who did what they did to you !!!

point two, however, is that the reason many commit crimes against individuals is that they are economically disadvantaged ... and they may very well have bought into our culture of materialism ... they want your money, they want your things and they might even be willing to hurt or kill you to get them ... poverty is not an excuse for crime ... but it is a reason for it ... it's important to see the difference ...

and, fwiw, i absolutely think convicted felons should have the right to vote ... even while they're in prison ... this has nothing to do with whether I believe those who committed crimes against you should be appropriately punished ... and I certainly hope you are compensated for your losses ...

to think that because we are liberals or lefties we are willing to overlook the wrongness of crime is an unfortunate stereotype that has been promoted by the right wing and its media puppets ... i hope your understandable anger at being a recent victim of crime doesn't blind you to that truth ...

sorry you're hurting dude ... hope things improve ...

[Walt Starr]

10. Carlos

The real question for me is, "Why should a small community get the political clout of the numbers from a prison located locally?"

In a census, these violent thugs are counted as living in the community they are incarcerated in. That gives a very small community of mostly prison personnel the political clout of numbers more than ten times the actual potential voting population.

That's the real unfair proposition. If prisoners are to be counted for the purposes of allocating governmental representation, they should be counted as being a part of the community they were living in at the time they committed their crime.

In conclusion, after serving the sentence for their crime (not at parole, but upon complete release from the system), it is my contention that all voting privelages should be returned. They have served their debt to society at that point. They are deserving of the rights and should be subject to the duties of any other citizen.

[rustydog]

16. I missed a post somewhere, but I think I get the gist

someone advised you that you should have sympathy for the person(s) who burglarized your Apartment.
You were also mugged an another time?
My God, that is bad luck squared.

I would feel sympathy for the criminal if I found out the person who robbed, mugged, or burgled was trying to feed hungry family.
That said, we all know that that number would be so low in this country that it is a laughable excuse.
Even if little Jeffrey was raised in the slums of the worst city and beaten by gangs daily, and wore rags while classmates wore Nikes, a person in this country over the age of 12 KNOWS it is illegal to steal. I can't feel sorry for the punk who choses crime. I can have some empathy for the drug addict who is feeding a habit, but the sucker deserves the maximum sentence for any crime committed.

If you know the reason a person does what they do, it may help to reduce the incidents of crime down the road, but the reason is not an acceptable EXCUSE for the criminal act.

You have every right to feel betrayed by the system. It is normal to feel outrage, fear and anxiety when a victim of a crime.
Do you have crime victims programs by the state in Fla?
If so, apply for restitution through that program.

But, Jiacinto, do not stop playing by the rules. Never stoop to the level of the "enemy" because you only become one of them.
You are a much better person than that.

You now need to educate yourself and prepare yourself against another incident. A home security system (available thru Radio Shack and other places) that can page you when activated and call police for you. ( I am not a fan of monitered systems)
Taking Self-defense classes where you learn to incapicatate the wrong-doer, not simply fight him off.

I work in the security field and I detest the people I contact daily who are constantly scheming how to beg, borrow and steal from our clients. None of these people steal because their family are hungry, these are BAD people and deserve Justice and jail time.
I'll get off my soap box and wish you well.
Just be on the lookout now, criminals allow a few weeks to pass then strike the victim when crooks think stolen items have been replaced with new items. Just something to think about.

[blindpig]

17. ever had a 9mm stuck in your face?

the gun a foot from my nose, the little shit screaming "I ought to blow your fucking head off!" 3 weeks later this 15yr old murdered a man and turned himself in a few days later. Minor status was waived, he got 20yrs, no parole. I'll never see the $800 (cost)merchandise stolen.
The way I feel about it the little bastard should have gotten 10 more years, concidering the murder.
Was he a victim of an unjust society? To be sure. Have I become racist because my assailiant was black? Absolutely not! Does it change my very left POV? NO. Because you can't change the past, you can only affect the future. I think that's what we're trying to do here, not comfort ourselves with famaliar scapegoats. get a grip.

[WeirdSceneGoldmine]

91. Only 20 years for murder?

If the murder was not in self-defense then he should get life wothout parole. To snuff out another's life blood without cause is unexcusable.
The murderer should never enjoy another day of living after taking it away from another.

[Cocoa]

22. one thing about crime

it has very little to do with what happened to you. This might be hard for you to understand, since naturally what happened to you is very close to you.

They just found four homicide victims in a truck on the West Side of Chicago. Not something that happens a whole lot, but also not something that is unheard of.

I think fixating on your incident isn't going to be very productive if you want to understand crime. On the other hand, what happened to you of course is a big event in your life, and will have a profound effect on your thinking.

[buddhamama]

24. people don't want to hear they bear some of the responsibilty

now that is surprising, i am shocked.

you've argued consistently how the laws can be weakened and bent to suit a situation; what laws are you talking about and are you sure you haven't broken any?

[Uzybone]

27. Nonsense

instead of harbouring resentment for the thugs that robbed you, pick your ass up and move on.

No one gives says criminals a pass. I hope they catch the people that victimized you and punish the shit outta them, and I also hope you find a way to move on and stop making ridiculous comments like you did above.

Where are all the people that said its ok to rob and assault because society is unfair?? Red herring alert.

As for the voting issue, if a guy has served his punishment then he should have thier full rights given back to them. If he is not worthy of those rights, then why release him?

[tnlefty]

32. Crime sucks

I still firmly believe that after one has paid his/her debt to society all of their rights should be restored.

No one is asking you to feel sympathy for those responsible for the crimes committed against you. I've had things stolen from me. No one has the right to commit crimes.

I think that sometimes race does play a factor in our criminal justice system. I have relatives who are guilty of:

Concealing stolen property and should have done 20 or so years in the pen

Drug bust on federal property which could have lead to some serious time

Felonious assault

Theft

and there are others, too. These are all middle-class white males and they didn't get convicted and received no jail time. The judge in the drug bust case stated "Since he's never been in trouble before and his parents are here I'll suspend the sentence". He was over 18 and in college. With the felonious assault, "You're an older man who has never been in trouble before so I'll drop the charges to a misdemeanor
and you won't have a record".

BTW these are my rightwing "law and order" relatives who spew a lot of their crap because justice wasn't handed out to them the way that they want it handed out to everyone else.

[buddhamama]

33. clarification needed

you said "What I find even more astounding is that people are more concerned about their precious right to vote than whether I get compensated for what happened to me."

what people are you talking about? the person/s who stole from you, or the people here at DU?

[Cleita]

41. My observation in Los Angeles, anyway, is that

the poorer neighborhoods have less police protection than the affluent ones. So criminal types tend to live and operate in these neighborhoods because they can get away with it. There is just as much crime in the affluent neighborhoods but because it's white collar rather than street crime, it seems safer. Also, affluent people have more access to lawyers and money where they can often beat a rap or do community service.

[enki23]

47. bullshit

you apparently don't really know any leftists, or perhaps you hang around a lot of stupid people. because your understanding (or capacity for it?) of "leftist" philosophy is ridiculously shallow.

[jiacinto]

50. Another personal attack from soneone who doesn't like me

nt

[Forkboy]

54. Why do so many people not like you?

[jiacinto]

56. Because I am not soft on Nader, the Greens, the far left, and the Camp

X-ray types. Because I don't let them insult the troops or disrespect our soldiers.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jiacinto]

61. But Padilla's a Criminal and a Terrorist!

Why should he come ahead of Kristen Breitweister and her family?

[Heddi]

72. BULLLLSHIT

Carlos---How can he be a criminal? He hasn't had a trial. He hasn't been charged with any crime.

How can he be a terrorist for the same reasons as above?

Just because someone is arrested doesn't mean they're guilty of ANYTHING.

And how do we know if he's guilty or innocent unless there is a trial?

Does it bother you that this man has NEVER been allowed to speak to a lawyer? That NO ONE is able to represent him? That he's sat in a cell for over TWO YEARS without ONCE being charged with a crime? Without ONCE being seen by a judge? Without ONCE being seen by a lawyer?

Doesn't that disturb you?

Why do you think he's a terrorist and a criminal? Because THEY say he is? Because he 'looks' like a terrorist or a criminal?

You fucking amaze me

[jiacinto]

73. You miss the point

He is like toxic wate :nuke: politically and to touch him is to lose. That's why I am such a hard ass on Camp X-Ray.

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jiacinto]

81. Sheesh

I think you are taking to this to the extreme. I didn't mean to get you so angry.

[Heddi]

88. Yes, I am angry

that someone who claims to be such an upstanding democrat would make the OUTLANDISH STATEMENT that there are people we should just throw away and forget about because YOU think they're not worthy of consideration.

You're a poly-sci major? I don't think you earned your credit in Constitutional Studies, my friend.

[jiacinto]

89. You don't see the point

I remember Willie Horton and Michael Dukakis. Do you want to go down that road?

[Heddi]

90. You're like a broken record sometimes

Jose Padilla is NOT willie horton.

Willie Horton was in jail for committing a crime. He was given a trial, and the right to see an attorney, and a jury and all that stuff that we're AFFORDED UNDER THE CONSTITUTION

Jose Padilla is in jail, and we don't know if he is guilty, because he hasn't been given a trial, or a jury, or a lawyer, or ANY OF THE OTHER THINGS THAT WE'RE AFFORDED UNDER THE CONSTITUTION.

Did you skip school on the day that they taught things like Habeas Corpus, and QUICK AND SPEEDY TRIALS, and Jury of Peers and such?

I believe you were because you obviously have NO CONCEPT OF CONSTITUTIONALITY.

I know this will go right over your head, and you will refute the message contained therein, but again, I remind you (as I have every other time you've argued your pointless dribble about Camp Xray and Padilla, etc):

they came first for the Communists
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
Then they came for the Jews
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Catholics
and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.
Then they came for me--
and by that time no one was left to speak up.
===

How would YOU feel if you were arrested for some reason that you were never told of, and put in jail for no reason, never allowed to speak to an attorney, or to your family. You sat in jail for years and years without charges being brought against you. The government tells you that you may sit in jail forever, and that they don't have to bring charges against you. You may never see a judge, you may never have a trial, but you are PRESUMED GUILTY.

How would you feel? Would you say that YOU were political toxic waste? Or would it be different because it was 'you' and not 'them'

[jiacinto]

92. I see your point I really do

It's just we would lose so much and then none of the issues we all care about would be addressed because no one in the party would be in office.

[Heddi]

94. WHO CARES?

Does doing the right thing only count if you're patted on the back for it, or is it ALWAYS right to do the right thing, regardless of the consequences?

Blacks once were considered less than human. People put their lives on the line for the rights of African Americans. Where would we be if everyone just threw up their hands and said "We would lose so much and then none of the issues we all care about would be addressed because no one in the party would be in office"?

Women were once considered property. They had no right to vote, to work, to own property. What if the suffragettes just threw up their hands and said '"We would lose so much and then none of the issues we all care about would be addressed because no one in the party would be in office"?

There used to be a horrible thing in America called Child Labour. Children as young as 6 and 7 years old worked 20 hours a day. What if those who worked so hard for child welfare just said "We would lose so much and then none of the issues we all care about would be addressed because no one in the party would be in office"

[JanMichael]

118. Stop it Heddi! Let's just lock up all the "bad" niggers & throw away key!

That way recidivism will vanish & Carlos will finally be SAFE!

BTW...I can't BELIEVE I just used the "N" word but that's where this is all going...

[Andy_Stephenson]

132. Toss in the Queers and Spic's

for good measure...cause they are different.

as long as were smearing one category might as well smear them all...you know...all the ones that are different.

[ulysses]

99. ah, the return of the "toxic waste" metaphor for other human beings...

Great.

[buddhamama]

101. are we safe,ulysses

when there's toxic waste around we're there-
are we contaminated?

"Not In My Back Yard"

[ulysses]

104. oh, but we're never safe

from the Toxic Waste People, buddhamama!

[greatauntoftriplets]

106. Are they any relation to....

...swamp thing?

[ulysses]

109. is swamp thing in need of civil rights protection?

Yes, if so.

[greatauntoftriplets]

112. An endangered species, I think.

Think green.

[Forkboy]

124. How can you complain about your life all the time

yet so casually dismiss others lives?

At what point do you put human decency above winning?

[buddhamama]

76. concepts of equality and justice

must have escaped you.

we don't know anything much about the Padilla case because the Government has stripped him of his Right's as an American citizen. and you're assuming a lot about the man.

and the same laws that are meant to protect and bring justice to Kristen Breitweister, must apply to everyone, equally, or you weaken them all. she may be a victim, but what is she a victim of? terrorism? without concepts and codes, how do you know?

[bpilgrim]

87. Kristen Breitweister deserves and wants the TRUTH

lableing folks 'criminal' or 'terrorist' then removing them from public doesn't serve her nor OUR purposes.

He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself.
Thomas Paine (1737 - 1809)

peace

[jiacinto]

It still surprises me

that somehow Padilla's rights are so important while those who are victims of terrorism come second.

That's how I see it.

[jiacinto]

134. It still surprises me

that somehow Padilla's rights are so important while those who are victims of terrorism come second.

That's how I see it.

[jiacinto]

135. It still surprises me

that somehow Padilla's rights are so important while those who are victims of terrorism come second.

That's how I see it.

[ulysses]

62. PLEASE

One of the most progressive DUers repeatedly offered you a place to stay during this whole mess. Get over the martyr routine.

[Heddi]

57. so because someone doesn't throw you

a pitty party and say "yes, you're right" and agree with you 100% all of a sudden HATES you?

Please.

I s'pose we should just do away with due process and kill everyone who's even ACCUSED of committing a crime, because why ANYONE would spend so much time on the ACCUSED instead of fighting for victim's rights, I'll never know :eyes:

[ulysses]

60. you need to buck up.

What happened to you happens every day to other people, and even more often to the folks who live in that "sketchy neighborhood" you could see from your apartment. It doesn't lead most folks to mischaracterize progressive views on crime and punishment, as it has you.

[jiacinto]

53. Well I have to go now as I can't stay at Kinko's forever

nt

[Cocoa]

67. do you regret bying the SUV?

You bought it to save on moving costs, and yet now you're paying hundreds of dollars to ship your stuff.

[jiacinto]

70. Well I shipped stuff I don't need until I get to a new apartmetn

nt

[bpilgrim]

69. and Limbaugh Logic

you are simply bying into the 'hype' and 'sound-bytes'...

much closer to REALITY is the fact that we have some of the HARSHES PENALTIES in the WORLD.

the problem is trying to solve COMPLEX PROBLEMS with narow POV of a STEREO-TYPE.

in the end you'll do much more harm when your intentions were good.

hope that helps :hi:

peace

[jiacinto]

77. I am under stress

I think I will go away for the night now.

[ulysses]

82. welcome to the world.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jiacinto]

86. No

But I am used to being under the gun.

[dsc]

83. Let me offer you some advice

as one who in a way has been there. I was attacked and beaten while in my early 20's for being gay. I, like you, became angry and fearful. I blamed all straight males for what had happened to me. I forgot the several straight males who helped me out by walking me home at night, listening to me rant, and in general being good friends. So I became an angry, bitter, Act Up member. (I was angry and bitter but many Act Up members aren't). The anger you are feeling will eventually destroy you. I know from whence I speak. I hope you take what I wrote in the spirit it was offered.

[Isome]

98. That was incredibly wise & fair of you...

to make sure no one would think you were characterizing all Act Up members as angry & bitter.

I know it's off topic, but everything else that needed to be said to the thread's author has been said. But you deserved a "kudo" for being sage. :-)

[dsc]

100. thanks

I try now to live an honest life even if honesty isn't always the most flattering toward me.

[Darranar]

97. This is my perspective...

We live in an unfair and unjust society. There is no escaping that. Crime is a symptom of this society.

You should feel no obligation to feel sympathy for them. You were abused and your anger at them is understandable.

They have no RIGHT to mug you or take stuff from you - you did not create the current economic policy in this country, and whatever some here may think about your political beliefs I do not think in any way that you support it the way it is now. Simple opposition to Bush and support for the Dems - which I know you have, or else you wouldn't be here - proves that lack of support on your part.

Nor do I believe in their right to mug a Republican the way they mugged you. That they are misguided does not mean that they are evil or uncompassionate. If they wish to feed their families, they can find another way then sneaking into apartments and stealing computers, violating your rights.

I DO prefer lighter sentences for crimes; if a criminal is no longer a danger, he should be released. The aim of punishment should be rehabilitation, not revenge. Additionally, solutions lie in a better economic and social policy, not harsher enforcement of crime.

[AquariDem]

102. Please Stop This

jiacinto, I know you're really hurting right now, but lashing out at everyone on DU is no way to solve your problem. Come on.

[IronLionZion]

110. There's no simple solution here

Someone from any race could feel desperate and angry enough to rob someone, but it will never ever be justified. Just because I am hurting, gives me no right to go and hurt someone else, does it?

Thank god for civil rights, much of the racial inequalities have improved greatly.

It's not any one person's fault so why feel guilty?

Give peace a chance.

[IronLionZion]

111. When I'm caught up in an online feud,

I like to take a break to cool off and maybe drink a cold Coronoa with lime.

Give peace a chance.

[bleedingheart]

113. People generally don't sympathize with the criminal

but what they do want to do is try and make sure that we correct the problem that causes people to commit crimes.

I can sympathize with you as I have been physically attacked twice by people on the streets...both sudden attacks that scared me to death, but I didn't let that fear overcome me.

The people that robbed you will eventually get caught and most likely may end up in prison because poor people go to jail when they commit crimes....they are actually forced to make amends...

Keep in mind that a rich white man just got acquitted of killing a man and chopping him up it bits.

A bunch of rich white men who stole a lot of people's pensions and ruined confidence in wall street have yet to go to jail.

[teryang]

115. Totally illogical emotional rant

What does concern for the right to vote have to do with what happened to you? What a non-sequitor.

I don't know any progressive person who doesn't understand or accept the concept of individual fault. Poverty and discrimination and other hardships are factors in mitigation of punishment (after a determination of fact that a person is at fault/guilty) with a view toward rehabilitation where reasonably appropriate. Diminished capacity related to a determination of fault is only involved when dealing with minors and the mentally impaired. Fault is at the core of our system of justice and we have more people in the penal system than any other society on earth. Exculpation and mitigation are two different modes of proof. The former is related to a determination of guilt (and the necessity of some kind of punishment). The latter only to the extent or method of punishment and the possibility of rehabilitation.

It is you who don't understand the point. But I understand that you are angry at the injustice of being a victim and your irrationality is understandable at this point.

[JanMichael]

116. OK. Didn't read the thread before posting: Who are "these peoples'"?

I'm not sure if this a cry about your victimhood against ALL criminals or a thinly veiled anti-BLACK post.

You lost me here.

I think I know what your point is but I'm not 100% convinced of my certainty.

[retread]

120. "...whether I get compensated for what happened to me." What

do you suggest?

[Zero Division]

122. Being personally attacked can certainly bring out emotions...

that cloud one's ability to look at issues of crime with balanced clearity.

I'm still pissed about the fact that the a**hole who attacked me one night for no reason whatsoever will never pay for what he did (it was dark and he ran off while I lay on the ground in pain; I was too confused to do anything like ask for help or call the police).

As time goes on this emotional thirst for vengeance will subside, and you'll be able to look at things more objectively.
I don't let what happened to me get in my way of thinking about the broader issues that surround crime (I'm sorry if I sound condescending).

Noting that economic disparity and racism and other interrelated issues have a strong influence on crime is not "creating an excuse for crime"; it's just a pragmatic realization that's necessary to make if we want to reduce the incidence of crime and the suffering it creates.

[KG]

125. in-fucking-credible

:eyes:

[PVnRT]

127. You seem to think

that most people who are in jail are viscious muggers, thieves, rapists and murderers. Yeah, there are some of those there. There are also a whole mess of people in jail because of the idiotic War on Some Drugs, which punishes people instead of treating their addictions.

No one has the right to harm you and take your property, but neither do you have the right to deprive them of their rights when they have served the sentence handed down to them by a court of law. Isn't that the point of our justice system? Or would you, like so many right-wingers, prefer that criminals just be locked away forever, no second chances, treat them like dogshit?

It sounds to me more that you are pissed because not everyone here is rushing to your side and forming their conclusions based on what happened to you. For someone who has railed against how you think liberals alienate religious people, you seem to have no knowledge of the teachings of Christ, which were, by the way, about forgiving those that sin against you.

[amazona]

128. you needn't feel sorry for those who hurt you

I haven't heard anyone go on and on about how it's "our" fault that "they" have to resort to crime. I was a victim of violent crime perpetrated by white males. To a certain extent, the cause was indeed economic -- they felt threatened because they did not want women competing for "their" jobs -- but when men resort to violence it is not PRIMARILY for economic reasons. Of course not. They could compete just as well economically by sabotaging me in many other ways, that didn't involve violence. But they got more of a charge out of getting violent. It's a power trip.

Now I don't believe that white males assaulted you, since you are citing "a racist society" and "thugs." But, again, I tend to believe that thugs are into thuglife NOT for the money but for a power trip. If they just wanted to steal, there are more efficient and safer ways. Let's face it, when they rob you behind your back, the police do nothing, there is almost no chance of investigation and arrest, so they can lather, rinse, repeat on non-violent robberies for years. And don't even get me started on credit card theft. A friend of mine has lived off stealing credit cards and identities for her entire adult life. The non-violent crimes are the smart, safe, easy way to go. So...mugging someone doesn't even make sense as an economic crime...and I don't think it is one. I think it is a power trip to shove a gun or knife in someone's face and say, "Give it up." I really do.

So I don't see anything wrong in feeling hate or contempt for the people that hurt you. It is too soon to "forgive." Feel what you feel first. Don't repress it. Get angry. But get angry at the right people -- the people who mugged you.

There will be no "compensation." Ain't gonna happen.

But it does no good to get angry at whole classes of people who don't want to harm you and may even want to help you. "Felons" is a pretty big category. I've known quite a few felons who were perfectly harmless. Including some who I'm satisfied were innocent of the crimes they were convicted of. I don't feel the need to hate every felon and stand in the way of his receiving decent treatment. I am perfectly satisfied just to hate the people who actually damaged me. It limits you too much when you start hating whole classes of people because they are male, or because their skin is a certain color, or because they are a certain age. It just gets old. So we are left with no real option but to judge the people we meet on their own merits. It might seem inefficent but it is less stress on the blood pressure in the long run.

You know, we do care. We really do. Many of us have been there. You will be strong, and you will survive this. But who feels like hearing that right after an incident...it's right to get angry, just don't let it steer you in the wrong direction.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

133. This whole thread ought to be locked. It's nothing but flame-bait.