John F. Kennedy assassination...

[Terwilliger]

http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=758

Released: November 14, 2003

Four Decades Later, Majority of Likely Voters Believes Two or More Gunmen Killed JFK; One in Five Believe Government’s Theory of Lone Gunman

Forty years have passed since the assassination of President John F. Kennedy in Dallas, as his motorcade rolled by the Texas School Book Depository building. A year later, the Warren Commission investigating the assassination determined that a lone gunman, Lee Harvey Oswald, committed the crime.

Doubt still remains in the minds of many Americans. In September 3 – 5, 2003 polling by Zogby International, nearly three in five (57%) likely voters said a conspiracy of at least two or more gunmen was responsible for the slaying. Just over one in five (22%) said they believe the government’s position of a single gunman. Ten percent had yet another theory, and 11% were not sure.

<snip>

........MORE.........

Who shot John F. Kennedy?

[durutti]

1. No Idea

The topic doesn't really interest me. I'm more interested in MLK and Malcolm X.

[Terwilliger]

3. We know who shot Malcolm

is that what you mean?

[durutti]

13. We know, BUT...

There's evidence that it may have been arranged by federal agents.

[bitchkitty]

39. Farakhan came very close to an

admission a few years back in his apology to Malcolm's family. But knowing what we know about the shady underside of our government, it would not surprise me at all if there were some involvement there.

[seventhson]

5. same people did all three

so learnign about JFK is critical. Also - if JFK was not offed I doubt Malcolm or MLK would have been offed.

Jfk was the beginning of the death of civil rights and human rights efforts globally.

[IronLionZion]

7. wait, Malcom X was offed by his own

Nation of Islam becaused he exposed them as hypocrites and scolded them for being haters. He was a peacful "love everybody" type of guy when he was killed

[Some Moran]

10. So wait...

Does this mean that Limbaugh and Shanklin are telling the truth for once when they call the current NoI leader a bigot?

[Terwilliger]

12. Takes one to know one

no doubt

[w4rma]

16. Man Claims His Father Killed MLK Jr.

http://www.bet.com/articles/0,1048,c1gb2341-3005-1,00.html#boardsAnchor

[Terwilliger]

2. there's interesting data in the article

like variations across race and gender

[jsw_81]

4. Remember, polls don't determine truth

A lie is still a lie even if 500,000,000 believe it. This is something that religious nuts and conspiracy "believers" tend to forget.

[Terwilliger]

6. what's your point?

I think polls reveal that some "truth" may not be true

[rustydog]

8. Bingo , Butch!

It don't matter either way. it doesn't affect the outcome. None of us can see any of the evidence which might lead us to an intelligent conclusion.

Something like 75 % of americans believe in angels!
Who gives a rip what the poll is? tehy either exist or they don't and the poll does not affect the TRUTH of the matter.

The same with the assassination poll, especially 40 years later.
It does not matter what you believe, Cuba did it, mafia did it, george H.W. Bush did it, Johnson did it. Lone gunman, 6 gunmen, magic bullet etc.
If all believe (that is the word, believe, just a substitution for i think) that there is a lone gunman..does that mean there was a lone gunman or that we think there was a lone gunman.

At the start of the iraq war, bush had 90% of the people in polls believing he was doing the right thing...was it the right thing?

[KalicoKitty]

9. WHERE WAS GEORGE H.W. BUSH on that November day????

The ONLY person who was alive then who just can't recall where he was and what he was doing the day JFK was shot was George H. W. Bush!

And from the Warren Report: Two Texas oil men, Larry Black and Fred Helicopter knew two days before that JFK would be shot!

I have always wondered about JFK, Jr.’s death. You know WAS going to run for office!!!!

I have read that John Kennedy Jr. was set to run for senate in NY and/or the Presidency possibly by 2004.

Kennedy was routinely asked by NY Democrats to be a candidate for public office. Kennedy was quietly exploring a campaign for the US senate seat in 2000 before Hillary Clinton expressed interest.

It was ONLY A MATTER OF TIME BEFORE HE RAN FOR SOMETHING.
Indications that Hillary Clinton was less than serious regarding a NY Senate campaign make it even MORE likely Kennedy WOULD have ended up being a (formidable) candidate.


See the "CAMELOT KILLINGS"
The Murder of JFK Jr. and the Sisters Bissette


http://www.freeworldalliance.com/camelot.htm

[submerged99]

11. I prefer to remember the Jam Session

You know, this one http://www.doctorcosmo.com/oswald/oswaldillustration.html

[Gman]

14. 40 years ago next Friday,

I saw JFK drive through San Antonio in his motorcade. The next day he was dead.

[Terwilliger]

15. still a largely mistrusting DU populace

I think questioning the death of JFK is, not only necessary, but an avenue towards trusting the government again

[NewYorkerfromMass]

19. Man, talk about a riddle wrapped up

in an enigma inside a conundrum (or whatever the fuck Stone wrote...)
but if you insist that's an avenue towards trust....well then O.K.... :shrug:

[Spider Jerusalem]

25. Actually, Stone got that from Winston Churchill...

Churchill's desription of Russia (because the Soviets' motivations were bloody hard for the West to figure out).

[Terwilliger]

28. you don't?

a proper explanation of the assassination of one of the country's most popular presidents? that wouldn't help you? Why are you even asking, you're a total Democrat. You don't think Democrats are part of a systematic cover-up do you?

[hlthe2b]

17. only thing I know is that Crosby's daughter....

shot JR!


Actually, I do think Oswald fired some rounds; I have doubts whether he hit anything. I do NOT believe he acted alone and think it likely he did not fire the fatal shot.

[Osolomia]

18. Interesting article in today's newspapers in Cuba

Havana. November 14, 2003

40 YEARS ON
The secret transparency of the Kennedy assassination
BY GABRIEL MOLINA

... The most important documentation on the Dallas assassination is stored away as secret information in CIA, FBI and Pentagon archives, and will not be declassified until 2013.

... And what is worse, no guilty party will be alive then. Forty years later, the shady secret is transparent for everyone apart from those who should see it, because the main protagonists of the assassination have acquired a fearful ascendancy over the current tendency currently governing in the United States.

THE PHYSICAL AND INTELLECTUAL GUILTY PARTIES

Based on information in State Security files, and certain evidence pertaining to the event and its antecedents, General Fabian Escalante, one of Cuban investigators in the case, stated that he had reached certain conclusions similar to those of other analysts on the guilty parties: the CIA, the Mafia and Cuban terrorists planned and executed the assassination.

On the book ZR Rifle, he expounded that expert sharpshooters of Cuban origin Eladio del Valle and Herminio Díaz, with or without Oswald, were responsible for the shooting, escaping afterwards in a Nash Rambler van.

The conspiracy was executed by two groups, he stated, “One controlled by Jack Ruby and he other by Frank Sturgis, subsequently the Watergate ‘plumber.’

More...
http://www.granma.cu/ingles/2003/noviembre03/vier14/45kenned.html

[TruthIsAll]

20. You left out "Lee Oswald did not shoot at anybody"..n/t

.

[Terwilliger]

27. I said 'someone else NOT Lee Oswald'

how bout that?

[Oracle]

21. Only a complete idiot believes Oswald had three hits on

a moving vehicle, with a bolt action rifle in 3.2 seconds and while the side of Kennedy's head is blown off kicking his head back, any moron knows that shot had to come from the front...shit, are you serious?

[maveric]

22. Thank You Oracle!!

And add that the Magic Bullet Theory is utter fucking BULLSHIT!
I'm sorry but IMO anyone who buys the Warren Report and the lone nut theory is either stupid or in serious DENIAL!!!!

[Andyjunction]

23. sorry...

I'm sorry, but if the exit wound of the head shot was in the front right part of Kennedy's head, then the entrance wound was in the rear. That's just how it works. That shot came from somewhere behind, like the book depository maybe.

Also, if you watch the Zapruder film, you can see the limo slow down just before that shot is fired. The driver actually slowed down when he heard shots making the last one the easiest of them all. Then he speeds off after he's covered in blood.

[newyawker99]

24. Hi Andyjunction!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[bywho4who]

30. Way Cool Dude

That is a very nice thing to do your just alright newyawker99!:toast:




:smoke: :hippie:

[Andyjunction]

32. Thanks!

Thank you newyawker :hi:

[Speed8098]

26. It is too difficult to tell

http://www.powow.com/reviews/zap.htm

I tried to spot a slowdown, but it is too difficult to tell.
Go to the link and tell me if you actually see a slow down.

My opinion is that Oswald was the fall guy.

[Andyjunction]

31. bad Zapruder copy

That copy of the Zapruder film is severely cropped and only shows the last part. Try to find a copy that isn't cropped and you'll see that when the head shot comes the limo is nearly at a stop.

Oh, and there was nothing magic about that bullet. Kennedy and Connaly were lined up perfectly for that bullet to hit them both exactly where it did.

http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/concl2.htm
http://www.jfk-online.com/jfk100sbt.html

[Terwilliger]

34. really? so the Warren commission got it wrong?

What else did they get wrong?

[Andyjunction]

43. I don't understand

I don't quite understand your question. I didn't say the Warren Commission got anything wrong. Of course I haven't read the whole report and it isn't on my reading list right now =)

[William Seger]

33. I beg your pardon?

Nice rant, but it was closer to 6 seconds, and the Zapruder film very clearly shows Kennedy's head kicking forward for 2 frames when the bullet hits, perfectly consistent with the same frames showing his head exploding forward:



(The extra red lines are to show that the other people in the car are not being pitched forward, which is what one person claimed was the case due to the car slowing down.)

Sorry, but that film indicates a shot from behind.

Obviously, I really don't know whether or not there was a conspiracy, and there may actually be some good evidence buried in the mountain of bullshit, but I definitely know that it's the "conspiracy nuts" who sound like "morons" when they talk about the Zapruder film.

[Oracle]

37. Man. as usual do you have it wrong.

It was 3.2 seconds and watch the the whole film...and his head was kicked backed as well...shit pay attention to facts dude!!!

[William Seger]

40. Pay atttention to the facts, huh?

Well, I just showed you a fact, "dude" -- the film clearly shows Kennedy's head snapping forward in the same frames that the right-front side of his head is obviously exploding forward -- and you chose to ignore it. Instead of explaining what's right there on the film, you simply repeat the very thing I've just disproven. There are at least three reasonable explanations for why he pitched back after that hit, and it could well be any one of them or a combination of all three. I have, indeed, watched the whole film in real time (which is exactly where I first got the impression that the head snapping forward when it was hit!), and it appears to me to be no more mysterious than his chin bouncing off his chest. (I have since found that that is one of the three possible explanations, the so-called "compression/recoil" theory.)

And, btw, seconds later in the film, you can see the back of Kennedy's head, and there's no evidence whatsoever of a back exit wound that the conspiracy nuts insist was there, and which would certainly be there if he was shot from the front. That would seem to be another fact that needs to be ignored to maintain the "front shot" theory, so it is ignored.

3.2 seconds? What "facts" led you to that conclusion? If, as most (non-conspiracy-nut) experts now believe, frame 224 shows Connally's jacket lapel flipped forward by the bullet exiting his chest, then it was about 4.9 seconds between that shot and the shot that hit Kennedy in the head (it's 88 frames at 18.3 frames per second). Alternatively, the "magic bullet" shot came sometime while the sign blocked Zapruder's view, which could make it upwards of 5.6 seconds between the two shots. And those were probably (but not necessarily) the 2nd and 3rd shots. Even if they were the 1st and 3rd shots, 4.9 seconds is just barely enough time to get off 3 shots. The Warren Commission determined that the rifle could be "cycled", re-aimed and fired in 2.3 seconds.

I'm more than willing to "pay attention to facts dude." So, show me some that will stand up to close attention. Seems to me the conspiracy nuts just keep repeating the same discredited "facts" long after they've been discredited.

[0rganism]

29. Who was Jack Ruby afraid of? Who ran Dallas?

"You Dummies!--can't you see that I can't tell it here? You people don't run this town. You can't protect me in Dallas. I'll get knifed in my cell, and the guards will be looking the other way."
(from Jack Ruby's tesimony to Warren commission)

Who was Ruby working for? Who tipped him off about the prisoner transport? Or did he happen to pop into the police station at just the right time to kill Oswald by coincidence? Why was he visiting with police on the night of Friday Nov. 22?

"Friday evening. Ruby is uncertain whether he went directly from his sister's home to his apartment or possibly first to his club. At least 5 witnesses recall seeing a man they believe was Ruby on the third floor of police headquarters at times they have estimated between 6 and 9 p.m.; however, it is not clear that Ruby was present at the Police and Courts Building before 11 p.m. With respect to three of the witnesses, it is doubtful that the man observed was Ruby. Two of those persons had not known Ruby previously and described wearing apparel which differed both from Ruby's known dress that night and from his known wardrobe. The third, who viewed from the rear the person he believed was Ruby, said the man unsuccessfully attempted to enter the homicide office. Of the police officers on duty near homicide at the time of the alleged event, only one remembered the episode, and he said the man in question definitely was not Ruby. The remaining witnesses knew or talked with Ruby, and their testimony leaves little doubt that they did see him on the third floor at some point on Friday night; however the possibility remains that they observed Ruby later in the evening, when his presence is conclusively established. Ruby has denied being at the police department Friday night before approximately 11:15 p.m...

(Sunday)

"...Leaving his apartment a few minutes before 11 a.m., Ruby went to his automobile taking with him his dachshund, Sheba, and a portable radio. He placed in his pocket a revolver which he routinely carried in a bank moneybag in the trunk of his car. Listening to the radio, he drove downtown, according to his own testimony, by a route that took him past Dealey Plaza where he observed the scattered wreaths. Ruby related that he noted the crowd that had gathered outside the county jail and assumed that Oswald had already been transferred. However, when he passed the Main Street side of the Police and Courts Building, which is situated on the same block as the Western Union office, he also noted the crowd that was gathered outside that building. Normal driving time for the trip from his apartment would have been about 15 minutes, but Ruby's possible haste and the slow movement of traffic through Dealey Plaza make a reliable estimate difficult.

"Ruby parked his car in a lot directly across the street from the Western Union office. He apparently placed his keys and billfold in the trunk of the car, then locked the trunk, which contained approximately $1,000 in cash, and placed the trunk key in the glove compartment of the car. He did not lock the car doors.

"With his revolver, more than $2,000 in cash, and no personal identification, Ruby walked from the parking lot across the street to the Western Union office where he filled out forms for sending $25 by telegraph to Karen Carlin. After waiting in line while one other Western Union customer completed her business, Ruby paid for the telegram and retained as a receipt one of three time-stamped documents which show that the transaction was completed at almost exactly 11:17 a.m., c.s.t. (See Commission Exhibits Nos. 1476, 2420, 2421; D. Lane Deposition Exhibits Nos. 5118, 5119.) The Western Union clerk who accepted Ruby's order recalls that Ruby promptly turned, walked out of the door onto Main Street, and proceeded in the direction of the police department one block away. The evidence set forth in chapter V indicates that Ruby entered the police basement through the auto ramp from Main Street and stood behind the front rank of newsmen and police officers who were crowded together at the base of the ramp awaiting the transfer of Oswald to the county jail. As Oswald emerged from a basement office at approximately 11:21 a.m., Ruby moved quickly forward and, without speaking, fired one fatal shot into Oswald's abdomen before being subdued by a rush of police officers...

"...Examination of Ruby's activities immediately preceding and following the death of President Kennedy revealed no sign of any conduct which suggests that he was involved in the assassination. Prior to the tragedy, Ruby's activities were routine. Though persons who saw him between November 22 and 24 disagree as to whether or not he appeared more upset than others around him, his response to the assassination appears to have been one of genuine shock and grief. His indications of concern over the possible effects of the assassination upon his businesses seem consistent with other evidence of his character. During the course of the weekend, Ruby seems to have become obsessed with the possibility that the Impeach Earl Warren sign and the Bernard Weissman ad were somehow connected and related to the assassination. However, Ruby's interest in these public notices was openly expressed and, as discussed below, the evidence reveals no connection between him and any political organization."
(from the WCR)

[maveric]

36. Ruby worked for the Marcello crime family which ran Dallas

And Carlos Marcello hated the Kennedys after Bobby literally snatched him off the street and deported him to Hondorus. It was a terrible experience for Marcello who was accustomed to a life in luxury and had tp spend a lot of time in jungles and cheap rooming houses.
Marcello and Florida boss Santos Trafficante were allegedly in cahoots in the killing of JFK and wanted him dead to get Bobby, the attorney general, off their backs. Trafficante had a saying that went: "If you want to kill a dog you dont cut off the tail, you cut off the head".
I also bekeive that Hoover and the CIA/Dulles knew this was going down and LIHOP for they also had much to gain from JFK out of power.

[0rganism]

38. I've got the hunch that Ruby was the key to busting the whole operation

Unfortunately for all of us, he was allowed to wither away in jail without spilling his beans. The evidence trail pretty much died with him.

[Solomon]

41. I still don't buy the "mob" hit thing. Until someone shows me that the

mob kills people from long range, I'll never believe it. Not their m.o. With all the beans spilled about mob activities over the years, surely this one would have gotten out.

Nope. DOn't believe the mob hit theory. It was something much bigger than the mob.

[tom_paine]

35. Cui bono? (Who benefits?)

Nixon and George HW Bush. (I do not include Ronnie Raygun as he was merely an instrument of the Bush Crime Family, probably an unwitting one)

On the Watergate tapes, Nixon constantly refers to "the Bay of Pigs thing" which was his code for the Kenendy assassination.

Who lead the Bay of Pigs? George HW Bush.

Could Nixon have EVER dreamed of becoming pResident against RFK?

Never.

Ever.

[David Zephyr]

42. Ask the Ghost of Allen Dulles.

Oswald, was exactly what he said, a "patsy".

George Bush and Richard Nixon were close at hand on that fateful day.

Nixon always called the entire JFK Assassinatin "The Bay of Pigs Affair" (Watergate Tapes).

Who are the common denominators between the Bay of Pigs and the 22nd of November, 1963? Allen Dulles, George Cabal, George H. Bush, H. Hunt and a handful of anti-Castro Cubans.