It has come to this...

[TruthIsAll]

The strongest economic power in the world..and over 9% are unemployed with jobs lost forever.

The oldest democracy in the world..and our votes are stolen in fraudulent elections decided by the Supreme Court.

The best teachers and professors in the the world..and our graduates are encouraged to avoid history and ethics.

The most sophisticated corporations in the the world..paying foreign workers 10 cents on the dollar, while our professionals go begging at home.

The greatest leaders in history, from Washington, to Jefferson, to Lincoln, to FDR, to JFK...and we are led by an AWOL puppet, who never read a book, does not know the meaning of compromise, fair play and democracy..who has himself stated that a dictatorship would be better...and who is depised and hated throughout the world.

The world's greatest medical facilities... but 40 million cannot get insurance..

The most advanced environmental research and controls... not utilized as the Kyoto accords are ignored and the countdown to global warming and worldwide environmental destruction accelerates.

The world's most powerful nation changing the established, proven rules of the game... from containment and retaliation to that of pre-emptive wars for hegemony and oil..

The most powerful member of the United Nations... acting unilterally in defiance of the Security Council, demeaning Old Europe..

A most compassionate nation...hiding casualties of war from the American people...

A nation of former true, decorated war heroes.... providing honor to those undeserving, for propaganda purposes, book sales and TV ratings.

The former powerful and independent Fourth Estate... a propaganda arm of the government, daily misrepresenting and hiding the facts about the economy, war and corruption.

The voting process, the ultimate democratic weapon and essence of democracy....no longer assumed to be legitimate by a large segment of the population.

The realization that our form of government has changed... from a democratic republic to a corporate fascist state.

[ewagner]

1. Depressing but, alas true n/t

[LastKnight]

2. welcome to america 'land of the free'

free to do only what they tell ya

-LK

[MisterP]

3. I'd applaud your skill at putting our problems into words,

but it's too depressing

[nostamj]

4. another pleasant valley sunday........... here in

Bushzhakistan.

pssst........ facsism is already here.

[Beaker]

5. "The best teachers and professors in the the world"??

I don't want to step on any toes or anything, but aside from a jingoistic pride in your country, by what measure do you conclude that we have the best teachers and professors in the world?
Look at the mentality and intellect of the average American citizen, their loose grasp of world history, let alone any in-depth or real understanding of American history, inability in basic math, physics, chemistry, etc..., inability to speak a language other than english, and even a total disregard for spelling & rules of grammar in that, their native tongue.

Doesn't really seem like the place with the best teachers and professors in the world...unless you're just talking about a handful, maybe?

[Leados]

8. I think we are at least competitive in the Sciences with our best

vs. their best. On average perhaps we are idiots, but I think that Americans tend to have more vision (think innovation and intuition) than some students from other countries (I've seen this firsthand in classes). As far as speaking other languages, many are not offered until at least high school when its too late to really pick another language up easily.

The professors aren't the students.

[LastKnight]

12. there is not NEAR enough advanced math/sciences offered in high schools

out of the 3 schools in my town there are 4 (one per school, one of them a cathloic school) AP physics classes... im not even half way through the course and i know worlds more than i did just a month ago. thiers only 4 classes of this in the whole city... thats under 120 students in thousands (small town) taking the highest option in math/science crossbreeding... but physics, and other advanced math and sciences is what DRIVES progress. anyone else see a problem with this?

no child left behind isnt helping the situation for the advanced students either, its just holding them back.

-LK

[bleedingheart]

25. Your school boad is to blame for that

my local public school offers Calculus and AP Physics (they use the textbook that CMU uses for its freshmen)...

It is not wise to make sweeping generalizations.

[Beaker]

34. I ran out of math classes in my junior year of high school.

I couldn't take any math in my Sr. year, because by then I had taken all the classes offered through calculus, due to advanced placement in Middle School.
But then, that was 25 years ago, and I'm sure that math has changed a lot since then.

[Beaker]

32. Foriegn Language classes should be taught in elementary school

When it would be A LOT easier for students to pick them up.

[alcuno]

10. We do have the best teachers and professors in the world.

You can always pick apart the American educational system and find many flaws, but keep in mind that our system is geared toward providing opportunity to children from a wide array of economic, cultural, and racial backgrounds. There is no other system that can compare in terms of providing opportunity since most systems with which you might make a comparison deal with a relatively homogenous population.

Furthermore, the US has led and continues to lead in terms of ideas and turning them into something. When you look at the areas of medicine and technology, for example, you find in the US the generator that drives ideas from within our universities and corporations.

Are a great many Americans woefully ignorant about history? Absolutely. Are they ignorant about the rest of the world? Without a doubt. Do they speak a foreign language? No. But where there is a real need in other countries, whether because of geography or economics, to learn a foreign language (English) or to travel outside of their borders, that need does not exist here.

We have a POTUS who has undoubtedly been the recipient of one of the finest educations in the world and yet who has little or nothing to show for it in terms of intellect. Is that the fault of his teachers or is there something else missing in a large portion of the American psyche?

[fujiyama]

17. We may have

some of the best professors in the world, but I'm not at all sure about teachers in elementary, middle, and high school levels.

I found that in HS I had some very qualified teachers in math and science, but those in middle school were absolutely abysmal having no qualifications to teach the subjects they were teaching. I recall my gym teacher teaching science.

Also, we have been able to draw some very talented people from all over the globe, primarilly because we have a lot of money. I used to believe the jingoistic crap that we're the most talented and the most creative and the most imaginative, but I'm not buying it anymore.

Please don't spit off the crap about people in other countries not being creative. Usually people are trying to take a knock at Asians when they do that. It's insulting.

[alcuno]

45. Hardly jingoistic, it's firmly grounded in reality.

Feel free to provide evidence for your conclusion because without it, I'm not buying it. Your argument that the US simply buys the brains from around the world is simple nonsense. When you look at advances that have literally changed the world, a vast number have come from the US; the jet engine, assembly line production, the home computer, etc. And remember, we've only been a country for around 300 hundred years.

It was not until 1918 that all states had passed laws that required children to attend AT LEAST elementary school. The Supreme Court ruled in 1954 on Brown v. Board of Education. Furthermore, Title I wasn't passed until 1965 allowing funding for schools serving a high concentration of low-income children.

There is a lot of work to be done in this country when it comes to public education and we need to do it faster and smarter. However, I firmly believe that we need to take real pride in our educational system and the strides we have made. It is probably the greatest thing we have going for all of us.

[Beaker]

23. I'm sorry, but you're wrong.

any educational system that produces so many brain-deficient citizens can in NO WAY be described as the finest in the world.
It seems that the jingoism has worked on you.

[spooky3]

38. Data suggest otherwise. If you look at universities...

a MUCH higher proportion of students from all over the world apply to come here to study than to any other country's universities. The "elite" universities here compare with the best anywhere, while other universities give access to many students who would have no chance of gaining entry in 99.9% of countries around the world. There are also many other measures that suggest that in general the university system is outstanding and not merely a beneficiary of jingoistic pride--check out the numbers.

Gordon Gee, Pres. of Vanderbilt U. loves to give an answer like this whenever some businessman says universities ought to be run like businesses.

[Beaker]

40. I'm not talking about universities.

I'm referring to the general education of the general populace...and in that regard, the condition of the public education system in the U.S. is deplorable by any standard, based on the average intelligence level of the average citizen. especially considering and coupled with the amount of the earth's resources that we consume per capita compared to the rest of the world.
We have become a fat and lazy society that has come to fully deserve the downfall that confronts us.

[alcuno]

46. Wrong? Hardly.

The American public education system is probably the greatest thing we have going for us as a nation; it is a thread that runs through every life and is in fact a model for the rest of the world.

And to all those who want to whine about some bad teacher they had, I'm sorry if your 9th grade teacher was mean to you; get over it.

[fujiyama]

48. This isn't about a grudge

against a ninth grade teacher. At the middle school level, many teachers are simply NOT qualified to teach the subjects they teaching. Can you please explain how a gym teacher is qualified to teach science? And, no this wasn't a science teacher teaching gym, which is a different situation. This person had no clue what they were doing.

Our public education system is not very good. I'm sorry. The schools are underfunded. Many of the teachers are way undepaid and therefore could care less. We're spilling millions into technology when kids don't have basic skills in mathematics and reading. Why else would it have such a high turnover rate? Many teachers quit after a few years.

We teach nothing about world history or different cultures. The history taught about our own nation is pathetic to say the least and extremely Eurocentric, and Americentic. It's as though the world didn't exist before the US was formed.

Some tests show otherwise. They claim our students are doing fine. I'm not believing them. Bush claimed that test scores went up in TX after him becoming governor. He made the tests easier. That's why the scores went up. it.

Of course, sometimes it's easier for Americans to simply have their fingers in their ears and say "oh there are some problems but the system's fine".

No, the system is not fine. It's a mess. We can either keep on spiting crap about having the greatest system in the world, or face reality and admit we have problems at the very core. Dubya's a symptom and embodiment of America. In some ways he represents this nation very well. Ignorant, and proud of it.

[alcuno]

49. Did I say the system was fine? No, I said it needed a lot of work.

And the fact that you brought up, again, the PE teacher teaching science proves my point. I don't know where you are, but in my state, teachers at the middle school level must be certified in their content area. I'm sorry about your bad episode, but I continually hear people bring up some bad experience they had in 6 years of grade school, 3 years of middle school, or 4 years at a secondary school as evidence that the national system is failing. The facts show that while many Americans believe that, they don't believe that that includes their own districts and schools. Think about how that can be true.

The constant drumbeat about our failing teachers and schools is an effort to so erode the confidence in the public educational system in the United States that it completely falls apart. The fact that people can't recognize that they are being "played" by the right wing in this country bodes ill for improvements in the system. Why fix it when we can just get rid of it?

[Beaker]

54. I had mostly fine teachers.

but what you get in the American public school system is Education-Lite. We have a populace that is, on average, one of the worst educated in the developed industrial world.
a lot of chest-thumping about "America being the best and a model for the world" won't change the fact that average American ain't too bright.

[elperromagico]

6. What's that old saying?

Is it, "You get the government you deserve"?

I can't shake the feeling that we "deserve" this vacuous, apathetic president because of our own vacuous apathy.

Hopefully we'll deserve something better in November 2004.

[CarlBallard]

7. I think that only applies

When you get to chose your government. When the governor of Texas steals an election, its not the government you deserve. I think we all deserve better.

[elperromagico]

9. I hope you're right n/t

[Murky Waters]

11. everything old is new again

This country is going to HELL in bucket, I tell ya'!!

Blah blah blah...

And ever was it thus. I'd like to know when this "golden era" of American benevolence was.

It is just POLITICS, for the most part. Injustice is in no way a new development in American society. Freedom has always been the great American myth. If you are just starting to see it, you have a couple hundred years of catching up to do.

Yes, Bushco is a crooked organization of power mad freaks. But it isn't like they are sullying some grand society.

They are simply a different brand of the same old shit.

Prohibition, union busting, Jim Crow, slavery, segragation, race riots, women not being allowed to vote, the Trail of Tears, Vietnam, the war on drugs, Chinese internment camps, indentured servitude, Watergate, Civil War, eminent domain, etc.

I don't mean to sound like a dick, but enough already with the hysterics. Keep your head. Take a deep breath and live your life.

And stop mourning the loss of a great country that never existed in the first place.

[TruthIsAll]

13. Sure. Just suck it up. Right. It was forever thus? Remember JFK?

Do you really think BushCo is just today's version of the corrupt past? Well, maybe so.. a worse case combo of Reagan and Bush I.

You live in a fantasy world of "Let It Be". It's a good thing there are millions, unlike yourself, who are uniquely outraged by this misadministration.

Perhaps BushCo is the final culmination of a process that began on Nov. 22, 1963. Are you saying we should just live with it? To just move on? Get over it? Nothing to see here?

Its a good thing we don't have to rely on those like yourself to clean up the mess we're in.

[Murky Waters]

15. you do have to rely of those like me

I didn't say surrender. I didn't say don't vote.

My point was that I am tired of hysterics that are themselves rooted in a lie. There was no "Great American Society".

You mention 1963, prior to Kennedy's assasination. Was that the golden period? Before the civil rights act of 1964? While America was already hip deep in covert ops in Vietnam? Where a womans place was primarily in the home?

I mean, pitch a fit all you want to. Stir it up, man! But don't kid yourself that freedom and justice and clean elections are recent casualties. Because that just ain't so.

Either neither way my friend, I do what I can to make things better on this planet. I think this endeavor is best served when we keep it it REAL.

[yowzayowzayowza]

20. Yet another LameOstrawman...

TIA never referred to a "golden period" or "Great American Society," YOU DID. What is the point in smearing passion as hysterics? Could it be that the only thing the fascists fear is the righteous indignation of the mob? I guess the women of France shoulda just stayed home and baked Marie another cake; Thomas Paine shoulda held his tongue since he was only reporting common ole REAL politic.

Wouldn't wanna tire out your delicate sensibilities or anything. Frankly, I'm tired of these pseudo-intellectual arguments for perpetuating the apathy. Murkey waters, indeed.

[Murky Waters]

36. yowzayowzayowza indeed

yowza yowza yowza! I believe that was a favorite phrase of young Ritchie Cunningham on Happy Days when he was master of ceremonies for a lame "talent" show.

Somehow that seems perfectly fitting giving the lameness you are cheering.

I am not apathetic. I am real.

Meanwhile, you and the "sky is falling" crowd are promptly ignored by most of America.

Since I am on the pop-culture TV personality track: You know, when Fred G. Sanford used to clutch his chest saying, "Its the big one Weezy!" people laughed. It was funny. There goes that Fred over-reacting againg. Of course, it wasn't the big one. No one called the ambulance. They knew from experience that Fred was just that way.

Go get'em, Fred!

I guess you can't resist following Smirky's lead. Can't motivate with a bright vision of a better future. Let's just motivate thru fear!!!!

[yowzayowzayowza]

37. False dichotomy

"Can't motivate with a bright vision of a better future. Let's just motivate thru fear!!!!"

Espousing a bright vision does not preclude a REAL poignant description of our state of affairs. IMHO, Smearing TIA's rant by comparing it to shrubz lies is pretty low. Try again.

[Murky Waters]

41. I got your false dichotomy right here

And pointing out that injustice has always been a major pillar of American society does not preclude mounting a REAL effort to make significant changes in this country.

We need to recognize that this country is sick in a way that you can't pin on just Smirky. He is a symptom of a deeper illness that has infected this country since its inception. If we don't honestly recognize this we will just keep the whole damn system swinging onward.

Hey, this is just my opinion. It is how I see things. I accept that his post was passionate. But it is a passionate alarmism that mirrors the approach of the rabid right through out the 90's. It sounds like HATE. It made them feel good, too. But the rest of America ignored the foot stomping and fist pounding. From a marketing perspective, it just isn't an effective approach. It is easy to dismiss.

It has come to this... Yeah, about 200 years ago it came to this. This isn't some new destination we have arrived at. It is the same damn box with uglier wall paper. REALLY REALLY UGLIER wallpaper, that I will grant you.

Now I am going to head outside to pet my dog and smoke a bowl. I suppose that is one of the reasons I can't get all jacked up with hate to the point of tilting my lance towards windmills.

:)

[yowzayowzayowza]

47. Strike three: the meme de jour, LeftWing hate syndrome.

The rabid right's "foot stomping and fist pounding" got them control of the House since '94. Most would consider that "good marketing." TIA did not "pin" the situation on just shrub any more than he's peddling hate.

"It sounds like HATE." Appears to me you need some windex for your "mirrors" as well as your reading glasses.

[lynndew2]

16. JFK was for tax cuts...

He also ran to the right of Eisenhower/Nixon on defense. I am not condoning anything but I think if JFK is to be brought into the debate it should be as he really was. The Dem party of that time was far to the right of were it is now and that has to be admitted.

[Beaker]

42. wasn't the top rate something like 74% or more when JFK was elected?

when The Village Idiot was appointed it was about half that.

[SharonAnn]

57. No, he LOWERED IT to 74%

The top rate was around 90%.

[WyLoochka]

59. Wow - were you born yesterday?

JFK was for tax cuts when top marginal rates exceeded 70%. That's a whole lot different from being for tax cuts when deficits and debt are growing exponentially and the top rates are 37%.

The Democratic Party of the 50s and 60s was far to the LEFT of where it is now.

[nostamj]

14. well damn!

why even THINK about clearing those murky waters?

nope. fear factor is on. microwave nachos... <ping!>

:grr:

[Michael Harrington]

21. Well...

Prohibition, union busting, Jim Crow, slavery, segragation, race riots, women not being allowed to vote, the Trail of Tears, Vietnam, the war on drugs, Chinese internment camps, indentured servitude, Watergate, Civil War, eminent domain, etc.


All on Joyce Brown and Miggy Estrada's checklist.

[bpilgrim]

43. well you listed a lot of the PROGRESS this country made stumbling ahead

folks are certainly entitled to lament and mourn their loss and would be WISE to take stock.

:hi:

peace

[A HERETIC I AM]

58. a statement that is scarily accurate

"And stop mourning the loss of a great country that never existed in the first place"

I find that disturbing, aggravating, shameful and, unfortunately, arguably correct. But, alas, i have hope. This country has in it's charters the desire to "Form a more perfect union" This should be our prize. The quest of all that desire and require great things from their society. The best thing that this country can do for it's future is assure a well funded, SECULAR public school system that teaches science properly and instills critical thinking in it's students. It is interesting how the repubs are the ones who constantly want to reduce or alter funding for school systems but there is always enough for General Dynamics.
(bumper sticker) "It will be a great day when schools get all the money they need and the pentagon has to hold a bake sale to buy a bomber"

[lastliberalintexas]

61. I agree

At least for the most part. Sorry that you got flamed for pointing out the truth of our history rather than the myth. And I'm not quite sure where others read in your post that we should surrender or stop fighting- I didn't get that, and I don't think that is what you meant.

I think we just don't have the historical perspective to think about the Shrub administration and their misdeeds, since we are the ones living through it. We learn about Tea Pot Dome and Tammany Hall, but they are merely historical references in textbooks for all of us. The progressives living through those times probably felt that the end of the US was just around the corner, too. I mean, how did any sane person survive the Grant administration?!

In 20 or 50 years, people will be able to look back at this time like my grandparents do the Great Depression- an awful time that you wouldn't want to have to go through again, but one that you survived. It just takes time to be able to put things in perspective.

I understand that some people on here really do believe that if Shrub is (re)elected next year, that 2004 will be the last year that we see elections in this country (or some other idea of the end of our democracy as we know it). But the only way that will happen is if committed, intelligent, thinking people sit on their hands after he wins. As long as we continue to fight his administration, the world will not come to an end, the sky will not fall, and we will not become the 4th Reich. After all, Hitler and Stalin only gained power due to the complacency and/or aid of their own peoples.

I know that he's not a scholar or seen as an intellectual, but some here need to go back and read Will Rogers' writings again. You'd swear he was talking about the US in 2003- rather than the US in the 20s. Just puts things in perspective.

And on edit- When did being honest about our country's history mean that we hated America? Not quite sure where that came from either. I don't hate my country at all, but I am honest about the way that our gov't has treated Native Americans, Africans and other Black Americans, immigrants of all kinds, and women. Pointing to the things that we did wrong and the areas which need improvement show a desire to IMPROVE the country, not tear it down.

[oasis]

18. The Fourth Estate has performed most shamefully.

[nolabels]

19. The last sentence should have been first

The realization that our form of government has changed... from a democratic republic to a corporate fascist state.


I kind of noticed that last thing happened when Ray-gun was in office (some might even say it was when tricky Dick took office) but at least there shouldn't too much more debate from now on out from the people smart enough to tie their own shoes

[yowzayowzayowza]

22. An a.m.

:kick:

for the passion we're gunna need to dump shrub.

[Eloriel]

27. And another

:kick:

Eloriel

[dusty64]

24. Yup, this election cycle

may be the last I fight for. If massive rigging and fraud occur again, or worse yet, the People actually vote for the repigs after the slow destruction of our Country I think I'm going to have to hang it up. Self preservation and my sanity will become job one, until then however ...........................

[UTUSN]

26. Great Post - and Add This One:

The nation most able to access intellectual resources, succumbing to medieval religious fundamentalism.

[BeFree]

28. If i didn't know better

I'd say there exists a conspiracy to destroy the 21st Century America and return it to the 19th Century.

The real crazy part is that with all the enemies of America around the world, the pugs play right into their hands. PNAC, and all that.

The country is on a knife's edge.
With a world record deficit,
a bleeding away of our sustainability,
and with the creation of a horrible fear of all things American across the globe, it's hard not to think it was designed to come out this way.

[democratreformed]

29. I've been saying this for a couple of years

I used to think it would be kind of fun to live in the "good old days". Now that I am close to being there, I have definitely changed my mind!

[sendero]

30. never...

... attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity :)

[yowzayowzayowza]

31. Not a conspiracy or stupidity.

Newt Gingrich declared straight out "I want to repeal the New Deal." IIRC, "Repeal the New Deal" was the title of the keynote address of the annual Federalist Society get together a few years ago.

...and a little history lesson for those afraid of attacking from the left: http://www.ips-dc.org/disrespect/pd_truman.htm

In 1946, the Democrats lost control of Congress and it was taken for granted that Truman would lose the presidency in 1948. Pundits and pollsters alike saw Truman's campaign task as impossible. Nevertheless, he won election in his own right, campaigning on the program that the New Deal had to be completed with his own Fair Deal. His program included extending social security benefits and raising the minimum wage. He was convincing in his attacks on Republicans, arguing that they wanted to repeal the New Deal. He claimed that the 80th congress, dominated by the Republicans, was a "Do Nothing" congress without any feeling for workers or unions. .... He also supported a national health insurance program. Truman won an impressive victory in the electoral college.

Yet another :kick:

[Ardee]

60. yes yes yes

a sterling refutation to those nay sayers who continually attempt to pour cold water on the notion that the american public is not liberal or fairminded. Truman had the guts and moral fortitude to stand on what was right and best for the nation and he won! the current neocons running the democratic party have neither guts, souls or concerns for the public, they are focussed only on how best to raise money.

[leftofthedial]

33. Time to seize power and start the purge

to the barricades!

[LeftofU]

35. Amerikkka Uber Alles

The christian fascist now have their playgroung. Just wait and see what they do with it. And all those that belive that Canada is going to be a safe haven. Just listen to our drug czar. They're in the crosshairs.

[Scott Lee]

39. The late great USA - Ancient Rome part deux?

Being a history hobbyist is annoying, because you have a tendency to view everything around you in comparative historical terms. Even some of the most trivial stuff. Wow, my toast is burning...I wonder if Tacitus ever burned his toast?

I notice a rising tide of despair and anger with many of us at the state of affairs in our own nation. People are pissed. Disillusioned. Disenfranchised. Put out. They are sure that we shouldn't be this way, under the new Police Daddy State. But my question is, are you so sure?

More and more I am seeing parallels to Ancient Rome. Look at how they started out (we can skip the two little brats suckling off a Shewolf). Borrowing all that democracy from the Greeks and dreaming up this way cool notion of one hundred representatives from around the realm (100 = "cent", hence Senatus or place of the hundred) gathering in one place to discuss and solve the problems of the young republic. The people would be citizens, not all slaves to the state (yes, I know Rome had plenty of slaves but so did we in the early years of our nation as well), they would be "citizens" and pay taxes (tribute) to fund the great republic. They flourished in the arts, sciences and grew in power.

Then they became Empire. The military got increasingly powerful, spread its adventures far and wide, taking ever more territory for Greater Rome (no doubt telling the newly "conquered" that they were liberating them, not enslaving them in a vassal state). The conquered peoples were made "citizens" of Rome, in an eerie precursor of what later would be the US determination to include all nations in the "family of democracy".

But the weight of a military empire got too great. The law became savage, Draconian. Its symbol became the Fasces, representing the unbending, brutal and literal application of its full weight. Emperors came an went, were installed and assassinated. The Senate lost its prestige and power. Revolutionary government became rank and corrupt. The empire shrank as money for the efforts dried up and rebellions began squeezing in on it.

When the pissed off hordes of former conquered peoples showed up at Romes gates, they met little to no resistance, as the once great empire had rotted from within and the citizens could care less.

Does this all sound familiar? Is the USA merely playing out another round of what inevitably happens to "republics" that become too powerful?

[bpilgrim]

50. a good recent book on this topic is 'The Assassination of Julius Caesar'

A People's History of Ancient Rome by Michael Parenti

http://www.michaelparenti.org/Caesar.html

:hi:

peace

[UTUSN]

55. I Like Comparing Shrub to Caligula, as in

"three years, ten months and eight days" takes us to, uh, November 2004.

******QUOTE*****
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/suetonius-caligula.html

.... rearing a viper for the Roman people and a Phaethon (": a son of Helios who drives his father's sun-chariot through the sky but loses control and is struck down by a thunderbolt of Zeus") for the world. ....

.... he poisoned Tiberius, as some think, and ordered that his ring be taken from him while he still breathed ....

.... By thus gaining the throne he fulfilled the highest hopes of the Roman people, or I may say of all mankind, since he was the prince most earnestly desired by the great part of the provincials and soldiers, many of whom had known him in his infancy ....

.... He even used openly to deplore the state of his times, because they had been marked by no public disasters,.....and every now and then he wished for the destruction of his armies, for famine, pestilence, fires, or a great earthquake. ....

.... ruled three years, ten months and eight days ....
*****UNQUOTE****

[tom_paine]

52. Very possible, but the outcome is not yet certain!

The future is not yet written. And while I agree things look bleak (and as parallel to Rome as you say) we musn't stop trying to alter what we know is to be if these trends remain unaltered.

I'm guessing, as a fellow Roman History Buff, that you have seen and/or read "I, Claudius", so let me say this.

We may end up like Asinius Gallus (or Paul Wellstone), but it is better to do so striving against Empire than to go limp and accept it.

[Scott Lee]

53. Let's just say the historical precedent is there....

But I agree, the final chapter has not played out. History is not only a teacher but a beacon of alarm. Can we heed the signs?

[Character Assassin]

44. What are you babbling about?

The strongest economic power in the world..and over 9% are unemployed with jobs lost forever.

Forever? Without even addressing the relative accuracy of that statement, you are discounting jobs that may not yet even exist.

The oldest democracy in the world..and our votes are stolen in fraudulent elections decided by the Supreme Court.

No, that would most likely be Iceland, not the US. And if Gore were president, it still would have involved the SC.

The best teachers and professors in the the world..and our graduates are encouraged to avoid history and ethics.

Bullshit. Name names.

The most sophisticated corporations in the the world..paying foreign workers 10 cents on the dollar, while our professionals go begging at home.

Yawn. Same thing in Germany, Japan, England, etc....

The greatest leaders in history, from Washington, to Jefferson, to Lincoln, to FDR, to JFK...and we are led by an AWOL puppet, who never read a book, does not know the meaning of compromise, fair play and democracy..who has himself stated that a dictatorship would be better...and who is depised and hated throughout the world.

Some of the greatest leaders in history, but not the only ones.

The world's greatest medical facilities... but 40 million cannot get insurance..

Those two characteristics are largely irrelvant to each other.

The most advanced environmental research and controls... not utilized as the Kyoto accords are ignored and the countdown to global warming and worldwide environmental destruction accelerates.

I, for one, am glad we're not signing on to the joke that is Kyoto.

The world's most powerful nation changing the established, proven rules of the game... from containment and retaliation to that of pre-emptive wars for hegemony and oil.

Speaking of not being familiar or interested in history, this is nothnig new.

The most powerful member of the United Nations... acting unilterally in defiance of the Security Council, demeaning Old Europe..

So what?

A most compassionate nation...hiding casualties of war from the American people...

This has nothing to do with the nation itself, per se.

A nation of former true, decorated war heroes.... providing honor to those undeserving, for propaganda purposes, book sales and TV ratings.

Again, this is not characteristic of the nation.

The former powerful and independent Fourth Estate... a propaganda arm of the government, daily misrepresenting and hiding the facts about the economy, war and corruption.

'Twas ever thus.

The voting process, the ultimate democratic weapon and essence of democracy....no longer assumed to be legitimate by a large segment of the population.

Only the stupid ones.

The realization that our form of government has changed... from a democratic republic to a corporate fascist state.

Wrong. It hasn't 'changed' into anything. It's been that way for a long time.

[bpilgrim]

51. he is lamenting the fall of our democratic society to big money

of course this has been a battle that has played out throughout history makes it no less palateble especially considering the progress this country has made in it's short establishment and has rightly been considered an experiment in democracy since it's inception admired everywhere.

hope that helps :hi:

peace

[yowzayowzayowza]

56. A final...

:kick: for TruthIsAll.

[undergroundpanther]

62. Hmm

It's weird how people who are struggling to pay thier rent or afford healthcare, can tolerate a super-wealthy person pushing a tax cut for themselves,a ceo giving himself a golden parachute as his company falls because of his incompetance,or some rich pundit saying it's 'nessary' to put a limit on minimum wage.When in reality minimum wage barely pays the rent,and most people getting minimum wage have to work 2 jobs to live.What ith caps on minimum wage and the cost of living rising,they'll have to find a way to work all day and all night and swear off sleep,they already eat from vending machines and let other people raise thier kids.

It's weird to me how so many people can swallow the idea of cuts in medicare,vets benifiets,and worthless 401k's and will not force these issues by forcing the rich to comply with simple human needs.

But if you dare propose limits on the reach of the wealthy into our pockets and it's blasphemy. Why???

What is so awful about putting a cap on how much excess wealth can be hoarded by a single person or family? Why not put a limit on the MAXIMUM wage someone can earn? I mean limiting wages to,say,two million fore every year is that a decent enough wage? I can't imagine getting two million dollars every year.Wealth caps would free up alot of money the rich are hiding in banks and free up resorces others need,and such for everyone else to use .I bet we would have decent public transportation, universal healthcare,old people wouldn't have to choose between food or medicine,and we'd have top notch schools if all that hoarded money was given back to the producers of wealth the citizens who are not wealthy but work all day and thier families. We would have the stability we all seek,but gets taken from us bit by bit by the hegemony of the wealthy..
After all it's a collective effort to create this civilization,society and this system,we should all benifiet from it whether we work or not,because we are all human beings,we have needs,limits and differences, and none of us chose to be here..WE are all worthy of a decent life,different and Equal.

The super wealthy have way too much if they can with a straight face, to cook up crazy crap like PNAC,wars or voodoo economics and sell it to the public..and apparently they have too much money and power for most people who are around them to be able to keep thier integrity working and intact enough to speak the truth about them to others so that they might be accountable if not to law,than to the people they exploited ,robbed,abused or harmed.
The super-wealthy have armies of lawyers, goons and suckup newspeople to silence,smear, sue and bribe whistleblowers and thier critics. They can isolate themselves from the realities they create in this society that we must live under.So thier perceptions are screwed up and shouldn't be taken seriously.

(I really think having too much money is just as bad psychologically as having not enough it just has different effects on a person)


The super-wealthy tend to use thier wealth to secure themselves at our expense.We are so easily duped into selling ourselves out to leaders,representitives,images or symbols.To unattainable hopes and tough guy swaggering, pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps and making it our own two feet bullshit.NOBODY including the superwealthy made it on thier own two feet with civilization suporting them.
The super-wealthy avoid even considering things like a maximum wage limit,these topics terrify them because thier greed is seriously out of control and they are like an addict.

The super-wealthy are the last ones to see the awful effects thier sickness and the policies that enable thier sickness has on others.And in a saner world they should be the first ones to see it,but in our culture it is rigged that they don't have to.And no one can force the issue without getting a label like communist ao anarchist or threat tacked onto what they say,that might actually help the lesser classes see they are being exploited.

The top 1 percent families are so rich they will never will suffer an eviction,never have an empty fridge,never have to work long hours,or go to war to go to college, they'll never want things they can't afford,they'll never have to put thier dreams on holduntil old age and tthan never get to live them, they'll never be sick and have no place to go to get help,They won't have to get stigmatized if they fail, they'll never have to feel responsible for anyone else's well being because they can can smooth over any problem ,just throw money at it and lie your ass off about how much you care until the complaints die down.

The rich really live like modern day kings except they must hide themselves, appear 'normal',hide thier bank accounts,tax records,thier affiliations connections,mistakes,crimes..from us so that we will not rise up against them,personally and take back what was stolen from all of us.The super wealthy really are like hungry ghosts with bottomless bellies.Some appear downright sociopathic.


This classist hierarchical money system has an intetrnal flaw nobody wants to look at.

Everytime it is brought up the middle class gets shrilly defensive,the poor get restless and the wealthy get nasty. And ironically it's the poor who have nothing to lose so they can afford to see what the flaw is,and they are least in the position to do something to make the world more just..And that flaw in our economic system is denied too much,like now,it leads to corporate ogliarchy.
It does not self- create corporate ogliarchy if wealth acumulation by individuals and corporate monopolies are limited,taxed or 'handicapped' somehow by laws that are enforced.If the wealthy and powerful are not controlled ,thier greed and egos held in check,thier schemes exposed and investigated,by the middle/lower classes that have some self-esteem left in them..,our current economic system leads right to ogliarchy and feudalism.


Companies are NOT human beings,and we as a society have made a grave mistake by treating them like they are people.


Why do people with wealth try to get us to agree they have the right to hoard obscene wealth and power? Is it only because we have given them too much of ourselves until we identify with them and we can't see they want more? Why do we as lesser classes tolerate being taken by the rich,and stolen from the CEO with no scruples/Why are there no limits on thier aquiring ,no stops upon the appatites of those who have more money than most of us ever will have, see,or use in our lifetimes 10 times over?
Why do we refuse to share what we have with each other,as if sharing somehow diminishes us? What kind of crap is this? Why do we work hard to hoard wealth ,to ape the rich,and compete amonst each other to the point we fail to make the wealthy prove their worth in our terms,and then whine when we get screwed out of retirement by the company.

Some of the old rich, who are today telling us through thier hired pundits to pull ourselves up by our bootstraps, got a free ride,they got thier start when America did.They started thier companies when land was gotten for free. Having space and a home was free of landlords,and rent they had more security than we do moth by month making ends meet.For them there were no monopoly laws,child labor laws and enviromental laws were around to limit them in thier schemes.They hoarded until the market crashed,and they do it again and again.
The wealthy will continue to take until they are LIMITED by those who have been taken.You know cut off from the trough,given portion limits to trim thier pork.Giving them a longer leash by relaxing laws because we are aping them only harms US.Relaxing corporate laws what THEY desire because it allows for more exploitation and less accountability.

If they can't get thier greedy ass way here,they will run overseas and exploit them there, because they don't want to have to pay fair wages and offer healthcare benifiets,they have too much money to have to have empathy or integrity or a sense of indebtidness to the workers who gave up thier lives so they could be so rich.The rich they are not threatened with accountability from whom they rob anymore.And what person in a far flug third world country will demand more when the new wealth pouring into his poor country is dazzling him at the moment.

Are we still hoping for that ship to come in that much? Why we put our faith in the rich to deliver it to us? What a joke! Do we dream so deeply of what we cannot get by our own hard work and these puritan work ethics that we are willing to sell our soul and the souls of the future to an ogliarchy for this get rich someday fantasy that is stunted for us from the start.
Because we won't face up to looking at how the process is rigged and our system is flawed in it's founding premises,so that the rich won't have to share ,give a little,or compete with someone who does the same thing better than they do ior the workers who make them rich or the society that allows thier games?


When wll we be willing to admit to ourselves why we work 2 jobs is to keep the rich,rich and powerful in power..food on the table is a side effect because we are alive and workers need to eat to work.

When will the middle class notice it's consience and integrity twords it's fellow man has been twisted into a sick thing by that hope for a 'better life'and the persuit of it all. Aping the rich is doing nothing to help society becaome better .That carrot called the 'american dream' is the kind of social fantasy that leads only to slavery in a culture like ours who suckup to power and wait for the rich to give even though they know the rich they never give by thier own volition,unless it gets them a goodguy badge,a tax break, or some other payoff..

Ever realize how much you have to sell out your own integrity,time and selfhood to climb the corporate/government/military ladder? Most poor people never get to climb that far.
There are really 2 worlds living parellell to each other,Poor and wealthy. The middle class is the transition and when the middle class sells out to the values and ethics of the wealthy classes than things go bad for everyone.And if you are not careful you can change your own beliefs,perceptions and priorities inside your own heart when you transition between these worlds..

[spanone]

63. And that's the good news!

tragic

[linazelle]

64. Thoughtful and thought-provoking post

This country has been sold to the highest bidders right from under our noses. I'm not very hopeful that we will get it back.