argument with a "NON-VOTER"

[radfringe]

not really an argument, more like a "loud" discussion

a friend of mine isn't registered to vote, hasn't voted in years even when she was registered..

her reason: all politicians are alike, they are all crooks

:sigh: :eyes: :sigh:

I replied - could the reason that all politicians are alike, they are all crooks is because people don't vote? You can't get in a new "breed" of politician if you don't vote. Not voting is essentially the same as voting for the "same crooked polticians" you are so against.... Politics as usual won't change until people stop throwing up their hands and ignoring what is going on - the toilet assumption won't work - we have to get informed, get involved and vote.

sadly, it fell on deaf ears....

There's always talk around election time about voter apathy - i think it's worse than just apathy - it's disinterest, alot people just want to be left alone and not bothered by "issues" -- and this means that for the most part we end up with the "same politicians" running things

[bluestateguy]

1. Mandatory voting would get her butt to the polls

A $100 fine tends to change behavior for most people. Citizenship comes with responsibility, and if she won't exercise it, I say, send a police officer to her house to "escort" her to the polls on election day.

[Speed8098]

2. I'm not for fines, but

I think if we made election day a national holiday, more people would get to the polls.

We need to do SOMETHING, but I don't think another law on the books is the answer.

[leftyandproud]

4. you must be joking...

...

[baldguy]

11. Mandatory voting would be stupid.

Unless you LIKE celebrity-politicians - Arnie, Jessie Ventura, Sonny Bono, Fred Thompson, etc.

How about Bo Derek as the next Sen from California? Rush Limbaugh for Gov of NY? Bill O'Rielly thinks he can be Prez. THAT'S who we would get if the current ignorant & apathetic population were forced to vote.

We need a well-informed citizenry first. For that we need an independant news media telling the truth about our government. Then the people would know enough to demand better leaders - and vote for them.

Democracy is never going to be pretty, but to work it requires that the general population knows what thier representitives are up to.

[Ani Yun Wiya]

13. Objection...

"send a police officer to her house to "escort" her to the polls"

It is not the job of police to interfere with someone who is not commiting a criminal act.

You say fine people for NOT voting, do you also advocate paying people TO vote?

[democratreformed]

27. I don't know about fines

but I sure believe that our citizenship comes with responsibility. When are we going to see that people live up to the responsibility that comes with freedom and democracy? That really bothers me too.

It's like "Gimme, gimme, but don't you dare expect a thing in return".

[bearfartinthewoods]

30. the responsibilities are to follow the laws and pay your taxes

good luck trying to extend that to voting

[hang a left]

3. I have talked until I have been blue in the face

to my husband who REFUSES to vote, register, or even be willing to learn about the craziness going on in this country. He feels that there is nothing I nor he nor anyone else can do about it. He tells me that his exercizing his right to not vote.

It drives me crazy! Sometimes I think he does it just to be argumentative. He can be such a macho bonehead!

[Speed8098]

7. Shame on him

I will not denigrate your husband, but he needs to wake up. If things stay status quo, he may find that someday, he will not have the RIGHT to vote.

The non-voters in this country kill me. They always make excuses like your husband makes.

I wonder if they realize that if EVERYBODY took that stance, we would no longer have elections.

Good luck Liberalnproud, it sounds like you have your work cut out for you.

[Touchdown]

20. Was your husband paying attention in 2000?

Something like 568 people in Florida was all that made a difference in the nation's election. Because 569 people in Florida decided not to vote, we're stuck with Chimpy destroying the entire country. If that's not a rebuttal to the old "My vote makes no difference" whine, then there really is no hope.

"sigh".

EDIT: I know there are many other factors involved, such as scrubbing lists, machine fraud, and I know Gore really won Florida, but we're talking about arguing with a non-voter here. Keep it simple.

[HawkerHurricane]

31. My wife, who is better informed than me

on local issues, refuses to vote. Says it would not be right, since she is still registered to vote in Venezuala. She's been living in the US for 20+ years, citizen since birth (dual citizenship), but still won't vote. I won't force her, I just try to talk her into it.
My 84 year old aunt doesn't vote either, but since she's legally blind, semi-senile, and can't walk without assistance, that's probably a good thing.

[Clark Can WIN]

42. Mind if I ask

how old is he?

[izzie]

5. I hear this all the time and also from people who do vote.

Not voting is a statement in its self if it is done for that but I willing to bet not voting for most is that they really do not care who is in. They fell it does not count in their lives.Course it does as every law is put in by someone voted into office or the rights he gives to someone to make those laws.

[kanrok]

15. True, but

if they really wanted to make a point about not voting, they would go to the polls and submit a blank ballot, like they do in France, where over 70% of the people eligible to vote, do.

[0007]

6. I vote - but I wonder why and what good it does.......

I first voted in 1954 and nothing has changed since.

We still have crooks and dishonest politicians, except now we more and braver ones.

Plus crooked voting machine run by crooked people and owned by crooked people.

Nothing has changed much and your girl friend may have a point.

Who doesn't cheat on their in-come tax return?

[radfringe]

9. nothing has changed?

it's gotten worse.... the less people vote means that a minority of people are electing the politicians

politicians are all alike because "we" keep electing the same politicians over and over again.

nothing will change for the better until people get involved and vote and kick the bums out

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

29. ....a minority of people are electing the politicians...

50% of eligible voters don't vote.
Of the 50% that do, the support is basically split 50/50 between the two parties.

Iow, elected officials are being put in office by 25% of eligible voters. Something to remember whenever there is a "landslide" election.

[izzie]

10. Well older people are better off than they were.

My big thing is we just become more and more war like. My first vote was for Ike and he wanted war to stop. He ran on it.My God we are still in Korea, Japan and Germany. This has got to stop. We should be educating our people not blowing up the world.What a waste of our tax money.

[Clark Can WIN]

43. "I first voted in 1954 and nothing has changed since. "

Really?

Civil Rights
Intigration
Roe v Wade
Fair Housing Act
Environmental Conservation laws
OSHA
Family Leave Act

these are just the few things that come to mind immediately

[JackRiddler]

8. I didn't vote for many years...

not because they were "all crooks"; but the major-party candidates were self-evidently liars, unwilling to describe the reality of the country, the system or the world.

I didn't want to legitimate undemocratic elections between mentalities that essentially add up to nuke-em-now as opposed to nuke-em-later.

Meanwhile, things have become so much more extreme and Bush is so evil that I'm ready to accept "the lesser evil." I have always kept myself well-read in the issues, and active in various ways, and I do believe that so far some of these activities (like working a few months to save a refugee from deportation, or like my current 9/11 truth work) have made more of a difference in the world, or at least in people's perceptions and therefore politics, than the votes I have cast (for Mondale, the 86 elections, and Nader and Hillary in 2000) ever did.

Voting and then forgetting about politics until the next election is about as irresponsible as not voting. I'm not going to equate voting with not voting; but I am going to place these two forms of (in)action in the same league.

It's after elections that promises are broken, because that's when politicians can safely assume that almost no one is paying attention anymore.

A higher percentage of right-wing activists are working towards their goals all the time, and not just at elections, which is why they mobilize more people for elections than your typical well-informed, well-read liberal who merely votes and occasionally expresses an opinion and thinks that this fulfills the ideal of responsible citizenship.

Who is doing more to change society for the better? Someone working in a progressive or at least charitable organization 24/7? Or someone who votes once every four years (let's say, in an informed fashion) but who fails to do anything else political?

Who *sways* more voters? Someone who engages in campaigns on issues and communicates to hundreds of people, whether or not they themselves vote? Or someone whose total involvement in politics is to stop off at the polling place once every two or four years?

And if they had made voting mandatory, I would have been among those who went to the barricades. Mandatory voting is totalitarian: enforced consent.

[ablbodyed]

12. I agree about the mandatory part....

They had forced voting in all the 'commie' countries.
The solution? There is none. Most people are sheep, so wrapped up in their own great/okay/pathetic lives that they don't have the energy to THINK about anything remotely intellectual. The voting stats, the movies, the ABSOLUTELY vacuous popular 'music'. Do you really want these people voting? The problem is that the thugs on the right have mobilized their forces and there are enough of them to sway elections.

[anakie]

16. we have mandatory voting in Australia

backed up by a nominal fine - $20 I think. It is not a problem to most people to vote, everyone accepts it. If one feels strongly enough about no voting you can always put in a spoiled or blank ballot paper. At least everyone gets their say.

It seems over there that to be elected you only need 25 percent of the people to vote for you; a pretty easy number for the RW churches to organise.

[Johnyawl]

32. And what good has that done Australia?

Mandatory voting elected John Howard.

[dofus]

14. In March of 2001

I was taking a shuttle service home from the Kansas City airport after two weeks in Australia (that trip is another interesting story) we were riding with two middle-aged women from a rural part of Missouri. One held some kind of elected office at the county level, auditor, commissioner, some such. We were expressing our dislike, distrust, and dissatisfaction with George W Bush, and the woman who was an elected official said she'd voted for Bush, but it didn't matter, because in the end she was always disappointed by politicians and her vote didn't really make a difference.

We were flabbergasted by this, especially coming from someone who herself held elected office, and ever since, it's been our benchmark for what's wrong with so many people in this country and why they don't vote or don't vote thoughtfully.

I didn't vote the first time I was eligible, in 1972, because I honestly couldn't see enough of a difference between the two candidates to matter, and I realized that my one vote hardly made a difference anyway. The ensuing Watergate mess changed my mind and I've voted in every major election and most of the minor ones since then.

But so long as we have the electoral college system in place I'm not sure I will bother to vote for a presidential slate of electors in 04. I live in Kansas, and it's hard to imagine this state going Democratic. I don't expect a free and fair election next November. The current administration came to power in a coup three years ago, and you can be sure they will do everything necessary to retain power.

There are so many ways the election can be stolen that it's frightening. Black Box Voting is perhaps the least of these. The fact that we don't directly elect the President is crucial. Since the it is the state legislatures who certify the slate of electors who will actually cast the votes that count for President we need to pay more attention to this process. How many states have Republican controlled legislatures who would certify the Republican slate regardless of how the popular vote came out in their state? Remember, the Florida legislature was making it crystal clear that they didn't care in the end how the vote count came out. They'd certify the Bush slate.

All it would take is one, maybe two or three changes like that --it would be legal and constitutional and we'll never again have real democracy in this country. Forget any silliness about Jeb Bush will run in 08 or whoever you think the R nominee might be five years from now. Do any of us really think George W Bush is the real president? He's a puppet of Cheney, Halliburton, and all those fine people who are responsible for the Project for the New American Century. They'd just install puppet president after puppet president until there's a new American Revolution.

[HFishbine]

25. Dofus

Please vote for a presidential candidate. Please? All the concerns you cite are valid, but withholding your vote will not help change things one bit. Your vote, on the other hand, is a drop in the bucket, but at least it's in the bucket. For the sake of your fellow man, please vote.

[rucky]

17. An opportunity wasted

Instead of browbeating non-voters about their civic duty, why don't you talk about our crop of 9 awesome Democratic candidates? Sell 'em on the positives: universal healthcare, fair taxation, labor issues - stuff that affects their daily lives.

The next election may come down to the "lesser of two evils" for most people - no matter who gets the nod. So if you can't sell the party - or even the candidate - you can at least convince them that there's something tangible in it for them.

Be patient, friendly & respectful to these people. If you scrap with 'em, all you're doing is reinforcing their opinion.

[TreasonousBastard]

18. I've seen a lot of this, too.

Much different from apathy-- it's a deliberate avoidance of the "system."

I think it's largely because we're stuck with a two-party system. Far too many of us are actually stuck in a one party system. I live in a city with only Democrats ever running, often unopposed, and there are many suburban districts where only Republicans are taken seriously.

Last council election here, a lot of us were pretty well up in arms at the incumbant in our ward, and had good replacement running. They managed to rig the election and keep the bastid in office. Now, all we can hope for is an indictment, but we don't see one in the near future. It was amusing to see 3 Democratic candidates and no Republican on the ballot, though.

When you grow up with machine politics running things, it's easy to get really pissed at the "System."

There's also a problem with disconnect. All of our politicans have been growing increasingly far from us. How many have actually seen a House member, or a city council member?

How many people even get news of what their local government is up to?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

19. It's a common rationalization

even among well-informed people.

Ralph Nader did NOT invent the idea that both parties are the same. He only articulated a belief that has been floating around for a long time.

[Johnyawl]

34. The first time I heard it articulated was in 1968...

...when Gore Vidal made his famous remark that "there is only one party in this country, the money party, and it has two branches; the Democrats and the republicans.

[HFishbine]

21. Isn't that infuriating?

I had the same conversation yesterday. Here was my plea to someone who said voting doesn't matter because all politicians are alike.
------------

It really doesn't matter if fundmentalists judges get appointments?

It really doesn't matter if civil liberties are erroded?

It really doesn't matter if polluting corporations are given leeway to pollute even more?

It really doesn't matter if this country adopts a foreign policy of pre-emptive war at the expense of international law?

It really doesn't matter if this country decides to withdraw from the anti-ballistic missle treaty?

It really doesn't matter if a women has a right to make her own reproductive choices?

It really doesn't matter if this country pursues a fiscal policy destined to place a financial burden on your children?

You can arguably make the case that on some issues there is little difference between republicans and democrats. But please don't pretend that the differences that do exist are on issues that don't matter. That's moronic.

Furthermore, anybody who suggests that they will not vote because there are SOME issues on which there is no difference between the two parties is extremely self-centered. They are no friend to their fellow man if they willingly allow things to be as bad as they can get because they cannot have things as good as they would like.

Go ahead and snipe at the "machine" from the outside. I'm sure some people are waiting for the "revolution" that will never come. Such sad sacks are going to end up on their death beds ashamed that the world turned rotten before their eyes -- knowing they could have done more; or they'll see a world that improved before their very eyes and feel the regret of knowing that they left the heavy lifting to others.

[Ilsa]

22. I'm against mandatory voting, but

I sure as hell don't want to listen to her whine and bitch about the state of affairs if she is unwilling to do her part.

Was it tv journalists in Canada that were upset that voter turnout for their last election fell to 70%? If only we could get people that involved!

[kodi]

23. remind her that people died for her right to be stupid and lazy

send her a snap shot of arlington cemetery

[bleedingheart]

24. It just isn't worth it really

typical excuses are:

1. Don't want to be on jury duty
2. All politicians are corrupt...don't you just love sweeping generalizations.
3. Pride in being politically unaware...a hard one to imagine but true.

[GreenArrow]

26. Professional politicians

Somehow, get the money out of it. Make elections publicly financed. Get the big business influence out of it. Lower their salaries; as public servants, politician's salaries should be along the line of the national median. Prospective candidates must undergo testing for psychosis and other anti-social mental and emotional disorders. Democratize the candidate selcting, and voting processes. The system as it is now is designed to choose, select, and elect "crooks", self servers, and so on. When Bush and some of the more egregious freaks in congress talk about "america" they are not referring to the country or the nation, but rather, to the business that they are running, and whose profits (their own profits) are the only imperative they are concerned with.

At least on the local and state levels, I'd like to see about selecting candidates from something similar to a jury pool. If you're a certain age, born in the USA, registered to vote, not currently serving a prison term, then you're eligible. Term limits would be prescribed. People that tend to go into politics for a living tend to be dishonest; after all, appearance is primary, and they have to tell lies and make false promises continually. There are some exceptions to the rule, but there are people living in your town and mine, teaching in our schools, working at the factory or shop or office who would be better leaders than the vast majority of those currently serving.

Until we get money out of politics, until we have an educated populace, cabable of analyzing and breaking down information impartially, (and as things stand now, the system is geared towards doing exactly the opposite)things aren't going to change. Mandatory voting is fundamentaly un-democratic, IMO, and useless unless the population is educated and capable of critical, impartial thought.

[Xyxzy34]

28. It is good that most people don't vote

If people don't take the time to be informed, and it does take time, why should they vote? The Republicans know how to appeal to the misinformed, stupid, average white American very well. The fewer people who vote, the better we will do.

The issues facing our country are very complicated. The average American does not want to take the time to understand them, and that isn't going to change any time soon. Nor does it need to. Some people just aren't skilled in that area.

[Instant Karma]

33. When one uses generalizations such as all, you aren't arguing

with an apathetic mind. It at least takes energy to be apathetic. You are arguing with a lazy mind. Find out what is important to this person and find a politician to use as an example of how something that was important to that person was affected by that politician.

[Astarho]

35. non-voters

If it's a sweeping generalization to say "all politicians are corrupt" than it's also a sweeping generalization to say "all non-voters are stupid/lazy/apathetic/etc." Everybody has their reason for not voting, some are convincing, and some aren't. The same is true for people who do vote. Many have said Kucinich falls most in line with their views, but think he is unelectable, so they won't vote for him. Here on DU some people go to great pains to point out how unelectable Kucinich is. If someone says that, than they should not be surprised that people don't vote.

If you want people to vote, give them a reason to. The Dems have not given people much of a reason, since they could have slowed down Bush from the beginning (if one Senator had stood up to challenge the election results) The Dems voted for the war, voted to confirm Ashcroft. Many people feel the Dems no longer represent them. From this perspective all politicians do seem to be alike. Some who still feel their vote is worth something vote for third parties, but we know they are viewed here:

We don't need Greens or wanna be greens taking 93,000 votes in Floriida.

He is only a bush vote......

Greens are scum and should be publicly shamed.

This will probably be written off as another "Bash Dems" post, but if you want to convince your friend, seeing from her point of view could strengthen your arguement.

edit- I know you did not call her lazy/stupid whatever, but others on this thread have.

[NoPasaran]

36. I was so disgusted when Reagan was elected

I quit voting after 1980. I figured that if so many people were so determined to elect right wing morons and wreck the country, they were welcome to it. I was tired of fighting them.

I have to admit that neither Mondale nor Dukakis drew me back to the polls. In 1992 though, Bill Clinton seemed to have a new tone. It seemed to me that he was the candidate of a new generation, MY generation ready to take the reins from our fathers' generation. So I registered and pretty much haven't missed an election since.

Now, I have lived in Texas since 1969, so I have seen it go from a one-party D to a one-party R state over the course of my life. More and more my vote really does not seem to matter. At the behest of the Evil Bug Boy Tom Delay my congressional district was perrymandered into three which stretch across half the state. But I still vote for no other reason than preserving my right to BITCH.

[Cat Atomic]

37. Anyone who can look at Bush's carnage and say "all politicians

are alike", is either stupendously apathetic or downright stupid.

[camero]

38. Tell her the solution

Vote for people who will put thier butts on the line to get money out of politics and make all campaigns publicly funded.

[eleny]

39. Does she have kids or are there kids in her family

at or nearing draft age? Ask her if she would vote if there was a possibility of a draft. That might get her thinking.

[Grins]

40. Don't bother, but...

Don't bother educating her. She's set in her ways and that's it. BUT - every time she starts bitchin' about roads, taxes, schools, trash collection, her utility bill, snow removal, gasoline, dirty water, etc. - not to mention the major stuff on healthcare and the military; just tell her "YOU DON'T VOTE - YOU DON’T BITCH! Now, please be quiet." Then change the subject.

I have friends in Virginia that are constantly complaining about Virginia roads and traffic congestion. One day I lost it with them. Told them to just shut up. They went to the polls in 2002 and voted against the only bill that was to raise revenue for highways and mass transportation (the anti-tax hard cases campaigned hard against it). It went down in defeat and the state not only cancelled future projects - it cancelled or curbed exiting ones! Last month the DC Metro admitted they desperately need more rail cars. They are not going to get them. The millions they needed were part of that bill. So, you got want you wanted, now SHUT UP!

[eridani]

41. It's about more than voting, it's reclaiming the notion of citizenship

And that means not just voting, but constant public oversight of elected officials, police, and government programs.

http://www.counterpunch.org/smith05052003.html

'Customer' and 'consumer' were not the only words being used to change the nature of citizenship. David Kemmis, the mayor of Missoula, MT, pointed out that the word 'taxpayer' now "regularly holds the place which in a true democracy would be occupied by 'citizen.' Taxpayers bear a dual relationship to government, neither half of which has anything at all to do with democracy. Taxpayers pay tribute to the government and they receive services from it. So does every subject of a totalitarian regime. What taxpayers do not do, and what people who call themselves taxpayers have long since stopped even imagining themselves doing, is governing."

Then there was growing use of the term "stakeholder" that covertly diminished the citizens' role to that of a minor participant. Ironically, 'stakeholder' literally means a person who holds the money while two other people bet. Whoever wins, the stakeholder gets nothing.

Another phrase that started cropping up was 'civil society,' a patronizing description of people who, in a democracy, are meant to be running the place. The term has come to used in elite circles with roughly the same condescension of a bishop talking about a church altar guild.