DU military-types: back me up on this helo crash...

[Robb]

SkyNews reported US ground troops were being ambushed, which led to the Blackhawks being called in. Then from out of nowhere, someone with an RPG hits a tail rotor and helicopter A crashes into helicopter B....

This is awful; but does this tactic sound familiar to anyone? Sort of an ambush within an ambush. This really rings a bell historically, but I can't put my finger on it... :shrug:

[Don_G]

1. It Reminds Me Of

Something out of a Tom Clancy novel, but for it to happen the two Blackhawks were flying way too close together in the first place.

[secretshopper]

5. It's the evasion tactics against an RPG attack

When they see the RPG, the helo pilot has only a few seconds to try to dodge it. They gyrate every which way to avoid impact. Given the rotor size and the difficulty of getting close in for a rope drop, it's a serious bummer, but not impossible for this to happen.

The lower bird was probably attempting a drop near the soldiers that were being ambushed. There would be two teams involved in the attack, maybe three. With one team engaging the foot soldiers, the others just waited for a clear shot from somewhere nearby.

I read on Asia Times online that there are thirty attacks a day. This one was more successful than the other twenty-nine that happened today.

I wish we could send Jenna and Barbara and the spawn of Cheney and Rumsfeld there. That would end this right quick, I bet.

Secret Shopper

[mikehiggins]

2. The IRA

used to do this all the time, and many other terrorist groups have adopted the tactic. Lure the enemy into range with a visible attack and then spring the larger attack when enough foes are present.

The IRA used to set off a bomb in a crowded area, and when the emergency crews showed up, a second bomb would go off.

Most recently, I beleive, this has been the tactic of choice of the Palestinian suicide bombers in their attacks against Israel.

[secretshopper]

3. Mogadishu

The Somalis fighters knew that the US would do whatever it needed to get the crews back, so when the extraction raid was underway, they launched an RPG against the first set of BlackHawks. As soon as they did, thousands of Somali supportes who were also pissed off that the BlackHawks would, among other things, blow down their shanties, get dust and grit in their food (during a *famine*) and so on, and knew that there were bounties on Americans, swarmed around the crash site.

There is an excellent book entitled Mogadishu, as well as the very famous Black Hawk Down book and movie.

I believe Michael Durant, the captured and surviving helicopter pilot, also wrote a book about it.

The Somalis studied at the same anti-US schools that seem to be in Iraq. We trained them through Afghanistan in the 1980s.

It's classic blowback.

Secret Shopper

[JailBush]

4. I'm not a military expert, but...

it's hard to imagine that anyone could have planned for one helicopter to crash into another. They might have lured the helicopters within range - or perhaps they simply anticipated their arrival and were ready. They got lucky, hitting one, which crashed into the second helicopter.

If the helicopters were under heavy fire, the pilots may have been confused. They may have been trying to target the enemy and taking evasive action at the same time. If both helicopters were drawn to the same target, then it isn't too hard to understand such an accident.

From a political point of view, the freedom fighters hit the Trifecta - the incident allegedly occurred in a Kurdish area just days before Bush visits London. That doesn't do much to support the White House line that we're fighting 5,000(?) Baathists (spelling?).

I'm just guessing, but this incident could be as historic as Jessica Lynch - and far more important.

[secretshopper]

6. You nailed it, JailBush

It was luck, but as Babe Ruth is said to have stated "The more times you step up to the plate, the more chances you have to hit a home run."

With 30 attacks a day, and a 1% success rate, about every three days you'll see headlines like this. That's just math.

*That's* why we need to get those boys out of there.

Unless the number of attacks begins to drop, it's only going to get worse. Operation Iron Hammer gets the ones who were on the fence even angrier.

The Israelis have years of experience pissing off the Palestinians, bulldozing houses and orchards, identifying and murdering people without any transparent system of trials or justifiable determination of guilt, and most Israelis probably don't feel any more secure today than they did 10 years ago. Why would we think that Iron Hammer will produce resuts better than similar operations in the West bank and Gaza?

My 2 Cents...

Secret Shopper

[Red_Viking]

8. Hey, there are girls there, too...

Or did you forget?

Since you're sitting right next to me, I suppose I could just turn around and tell you...

:evilgrin:

RV

[HFishbine]

11. That's freaky

"Honey, will you get me a soda."

"I'm on the computer."

"I can see that. I'm on the computer too."

"I can see that."

[Patriot_Spear]

7. It's an old sniper trick...

Wound a guy then pick off his buddies when they go in to get him. French Foriegn Legion snipers (former SS) used this tactic quite often in SE Asia.

There was an incident in the Revolutionary war in the Hudson Valley area where an American relief column heading to besieged fort was ambushed by Indians allied with the British.

Laying in wait for relief forces is not a new trick.

[Patriot_Spear]

9. I'm so thick- what it reminds me of is the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan

The Mujahadeen used to wait for HIND-D and HIP-8 helicopters to come to the aid of Soviet patrols under fire, then they'd use the Stingers we gave them to knock them down.

Soviet helicopter pilots wouldn't fly into narrow canyons because the Afghans would sometimes simply throw grenades down onto the rotars.

[Robb]

12. That's it

That's what tickled my weak, weak memory. Thanks.

F-ing grim, this.

[Aidoneus]

10. seems to have been a "fortunate break" on their part

I'm not familiar with the inner workings of the Iraqi guerilla movement, but I am very familiar with the Chechens who are in a similar situation resisting an occupation of their lands. It's perhaps comperable, adapted to mainly urban/desert surroundings instead of the good cover the Caucasus foothills provides. They work in many detachments of small groups (a dozen, maybe, provides good mobility and is enough power for an endless series of small engagements), most armed with a rifle or a Kalashnikov, but always keeping at least one anti-tank/shoulder-fired RPG around in the event of a random unlucky find of heavy armour (like a tank or helicopter), so the units are always ready to take advantage of such a situation.

It's likely the Iraqi fighters keep RPGs around to fire at convoys (from what I understand they're not too terribly heavy, can be carried around without a strain and are shoulder-fired), but happened to have found a helicopter to use it on instead. On the other hand, they are undoubtably studying the tactics of the occupation forces, to get a feel for the routines they go through in these situations and would thus obviously know a lot more than I could answer.

Also not sure how the two helicopters crashed into one another, unless one was disoriented enough by the RPG hit to blindly smash into the other. Not quite clear on how things exactly played out yet, as initial reports are usually contradictory if not outright useless.