Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Were the copters hit by RPG's or did they crash?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU
 
bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 07:03 PM
Original message
Were the copters hit by RPG's or did they crash?
Earlier today the reports all said that one copter was hit by an RPG causing it to collide with the other copter. Now all the media reports seem to be backing away from this indicating that the copters simply "crashed", which just seems like a pretext for quickly blowing off the whole thing as unserious because it was not an act of hostile fire. I really lose my patience with news agencies who change their stories in the middle of the news cycle.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
berner59 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
1. crash but....
CNN says it was avoiding gunfire and rose up and then hit the other one...avoiding gunfire...I'd say that was hostile forces!!!


http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/11/15/sprj.irq.crash/index.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LastKnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
2. all copters are pretty fragile things...
despite thier somewhat menacing appearence, small arms fire to the rotary blades can take em down if they hit the right spot, (although you gotta shoot alot or be pretty damn lucky to hit the right spot)... they are held aloft by very little material so they dont have alot of room for armor like the tanks do.

-LK
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Aidoneus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
3. it seems
one was hit by an RPG by Iraqi fighters, that disorientated it enough that it crashed into another.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
maggrwaggr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
4. considering they bombed a village in retaliation for the last "crash"
I'd say this was probably no crash.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
demconfive Donating Member (578 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 09:07 PM
Response to Original message
5. One copter was hit in the tail....
From what I read , one copter was hit in the tail from a rocket propelled grenade, (RPG). It then rose up and crashed into the second copter.
Tail rotors on helicopters are powered from the same engine as the main rotors. Their job is to counteract the rotational forces of the main rotors,(otherwise the entire helicopter would spin in the opposite direction). When a tail rotor is damaged the horsepower used to rotate it is instantly transfered to the main rotor, which produces instant lift, causing the helicopter to 'jump' upwards rapidly. At the same time, the pilot will have lost control.If the two helicopters were close enough there would be nothing either one could have done. Poor bastards.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Military Brat Donating Member (999 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Thanks for the clarification, demconfive
I was wondering what caused the helicopter under assault to rise upwards. Now I know.

News reports immediately began backing off the RPG claim as a definite cause; now the reports are only saying "witnesses claim." I'm so disgusted with the CYA policy in Iraq. The bodies aren't even cold, and the dissembling begins.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:31 PM
Response to Reply #5
18. "Poor bastards."
In more ways than one, most likely.



Have I said how much I hate these people?- Mike Malloy
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DemoTex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
6. RPGs vs SAMs
Edited on Sat Nov-15-03 09:31 PM by DemoTex
Who knows what brought these two Army helicopters down? But, I do think that they are saying RPGs when they mean SAMs. An RPG (rocket propelled grenade) has no guidance. One might take down a hovering (stationary position, but airborne) helicopter at close range with an RPG, but a connect with a moving helicopter is an extreme long-shot, odds-wise.

I think the RPG story is a smokescreen. I think they are firing SAMs and the regime knows it. I think that the general public might get really upset if they knew how many shoulder-fired SAMs there are out there.

Tet-II, as someone posted yesterday. Reminds me of a Bedard poster, "Sitting Duck."



Been there, done that. This poster hangs prominently in my study.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Don't believe the RPG stuff either. Last week it was Russian manpads
For some reason our liberal press has been trying to keep Russia out of this? I suspect the reason is that if Russia is or has recently supplied Iraq with SAM's our guys over ther are really screwed and most Americans would recognise that.

Don

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DemoTex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I think if they start talking SAMS, the lid will come off of estimates ...
... of SAMs in the Homeland. They are here, believe me. It's just a matter of time. Picture a Boeing 737-300 departing runway 27 at BOS hit by a SAM at about 2000 feet. Guess where the impact will be. Downtown Boston. Same-same DCA or LGA. Matter of time, Don. Mark my words. Keep the lid on the effectiveness of portable SAMs. Call them something else. That's Prime Minister Cheney's way.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Patriot_Spear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. Now wait just a second...
Edited on Sat Nov-15-03 11:08 PM by Patriot_Spear
The first time I picked a LAW up, I hit a scrapped M-60 three times in a row, with three different LAWS, at about 200 feet. Now compared to a LAW, the RPG-7 is a pretty unsophisticted weapon, designed for easy use by slightly trained troops- are you telling me a group of Iraqi's who trained on them routinely couldn't get good enough to hit a hovering Blackhawk?

The Afghan's got pretty good at using them against the Soviets- the only problem there was that the HIND is like a flying tank compared to our helicopters.

RPG's make total sense to me; cheap, reusable and durable- in an urban, up close enviroment- hell yes they could bring a chopper down.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DemoTex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Wait! Don't try to twist what I said!
I basically said that a RPG (not a LAW - that's wire guided, right?) at close range against a stationary helicopter (or Humvee, or tank) could work. However, an RPG against a flying - moving - helicopter becomes an outside art, not a given science.

Your text contains the best clue ever: The first time I picked a LAW up, I hit a scrapped M-60 three times in a row, with three different LAWS, at about 200 feet.

Short-range, stationary target, and a relaxed training situation! Did you ever make it to a combat zone? Deal with RPGs?

You said: RPG's make total sense to me; cheap, reusable and durable- in an urban, up close enviroment- hell yes they could bring a chopper down.
RPGs make a whole lot of sense to me too, although I hate the sense they make. The RPG is not a recognized or effective anti-aircraft weapon. It is a part of the small-arms category that occasionally scores a lucky hit. Again, been there - done that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Patriot_Spear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. The RPG has variable ammunition...
Edited on Sat Nov-15-03 11:28 PM by Patriot_Spear
...And one is a fragmenting anti-aircraft round. The LAW is not wire guided- you're thinking of the TOW and TOW II or the Infantry carried DRAGON (fired both).

Your points are well taken, but you have to remember Saddam's regular and irregular forces had a bunch of experience fighting the Iranians and the Kurdish rebels to the North.

I can easily some old hand catching a hovering Blackhawk waiting for a clear LZ- but what is more likely is that they're working in packs- three or four gunners- that's how the attacks on our convoys have been going down.

My two cents as a non-REMF.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Patriot_Spear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. RPG in Afghanistan Against Helicopters using the PG-7N Shrapnel Grenade
Phase Four Operations in Iraq and the RPG-7

by George J. Mordica II, Senior Analyst, CALL
Center for Army Lessons Learned
Nov-Dec 03

Troops beginning Phase Four operations in Operation Iraqi Freedom (OIF) are involved in a different type of combat that focuses on ending attacks against the coalition forces. Initial indications suggest these attacks are not being directed by a central command, but are being executed by small bands of resistance displeased with the changing political situation in Iraq. The weapon of choice used by the resistance is the rocket propelled grenade (RPG)-7.

A recent review of data compiled by the Operation Iraqi Freedom Study Group (OIF SG) indicates that fifty percent of U.S. soldiers killed in action in post-war operations were the result of the RPG-7. In production since 1961, this antitank grenade has proved to be a cheap, reliable, easy-to-use weapon that is readily available all over the world. Iraq was one of the countries authorized and licensed to produce their own RPG by the old Soviet Regime. The RPG-7 was a mainstay of the Iraqi Army and was issued three to a platoon in the infantry TOE.1/ Center for Army Lessons Learned operations officers reported that this weapon system with ammunition is readily available in Iraq, thrown to the ground in piles and in warehouses and on the streets.

This article is based on A Weapon For All Seasons: The Old But Effective RPG-7 written by Les Grau of the Foreign Military Studies Office and available on the CALL MOUT website at http://call.army.mil/homepage/mout.htm. Written in 1997, Grau's article about the use of the RPG-7 against helicopters in Afghanistan is still relevant today. To analyze the problems caused by the RPG-7 in Iraq, one must understand the weapon and the tactics used to employ it, and analyze how these two factors relate to close combat and the physical environment in Iraq.

The RPG-7 is a shoulder-fired, muzzle-loaded, antitank and antipersonnel grenade launcher that launches fin-stabilized, oversized grenades from a 40mm tube. The launcher with optical sights weighs 6.9 kilograms (15.9 pounds) and has a maximum, effective range of 300 meters against moving point targets and 500 meters against stationary point targets. The maximum range for antitank grenades against area targets is 920 meters. The round self-destructs after a 4.5 second flight. The antipersonnel grenades reach over 1100 meters. Among the production grenades are the PG-7, PG-7M, PG-7N, and PG-7VL antitank grenades with armor penetrability of up to 600 mm of rolled homogeneous steel. The PG-7VR is a tandem warhead designed to penetrate explosive reactive armor and the armor underneath. The OG-7 and OG-7M are high-explosive antipersonnel grenades.2/




Generally, recent reports suggest that survivability doctrine developed in Vietnam is being relearned in Iraq. Standoff is considered to be the best doctrine for survivability against this weapon. Standoff doctrine concerns the actual range of the weapon (500 meters stationary and 300 meters moving target) which is, in essence, a factor for defense. Standoff is also a consideration when using a barrier or obstruction between the flight of the grenade and the actual surface of the target and can be a major consideration in force protection in the urban conflict environment seen thus far in Iraq.

The RPG-7 is an excellent weapon for close combat operations. Long used by the Mujahideen in Afghanistan, it is ideal for fighting in mountainous terrain. It is equally adaptable to the urban canyon fight of Iraqi cities and the back streets of villages. This weapon is easy to use against vehicles and dismounted personnel. As in Chechnya, the RPG is very effective when used in urban combat, and survivability is greatly increased when they are fired in volleys.

The use of the RPG-7, no matter how well camouflaged, leaves a tell-tale blue-gray smoke and flash launching signature that can help identify the firer. The user must relocate immediately to avoid identification and retribution. In Iraq, however, the collateral damage and potential civilian casualties created by the response become problematic. The RPG-7 used as a point or area weapon creates problems in determining a response.

The RPG-7 is an effective tool against convoys, isolated checkpoints, and observation posts. The weapon was engineered to use at close range and becomes increasingly dangerous when fired in coordination with two or three others. The bursting radius of the antitank round is about 4 meters or 13 feet. Although it has a specifically shaped charge warhead, the concussion, blast effect, and shrapnel are very effective against infantry. There are three main advantages to using the RPG-7 in close combat:

Coalition forces have limited response to an RPG-7 attack because of the desire to reduce the collateral damage caused by air and indirect fires.

Close combat by its very nature makes detection of the firing positions more difficult. Confusion, the presence of non-combatants, compressed terrain, and limited visibility further complicate the problem.

The RPG-7 is perfect for close in fighting. It has a minimum arming distance, cheap but effective sights, and requires limited training to attain proficiency.

The most effective use of the RPG-7 against helicopters has been to use the self-destructing round to bring down a platform with shrapnel. Engaging from 800 meters away will allow for the 920 meters self-destruct to activate and kill the aircraft. Obviously this technique takes a lot of practice to be effective, but the results of RPG-7 attacks against Soviet helicopters in the mountains of Afghanistan prove that it can be effectively trained.

Because the effectiveness of the RPG-7 against a moving vehicle is only as good as the trained gunner, the best way to engage a vehicle is to stop its movement. This can be done with obstacles, roadblocks, crowds, vehicle accidents, or demonstrations. In a tactical scenario, having a vehicle stop to provide a base of fire is not always a good idea, especially when infantry is not available to provide security.

U.S. forces learned a lot about the effectiveness of the RPG-7 in Vietnam. The weapon proved very deadly in the hands of the North Vietnamese Army. At the time, broadcast news would show photos of jeeps, trucks, and M113s laden with sandbags and encircled with chicken wire. Because the RPG-7 is a shape charge munition, the first encounter it has before meeting the hard skin of the vehicle will set it off. If the initial fuse strikes an object such as a railing or wire and the round goes off, it spares the vehicle's surface from penetration. With the invention of the tandem warhead for the RPG-7, this technique was thought to be obsolete. However that specific warhead, developed as an answer to reactive armor, has not been identified in Iraq. Initial reports from Iraq indicate that the add- on rails used to store TA-50, the TA 50 itself, storage boxes, chicken wire, and sandbags have all been effective in setting off the grenade before it comes in contact with the vehicle's skin.




Third Infantry Division reported in their after action review that "most 3ID units fabricated open racks on the sides of the BFVs and on some M113s. They used them to carry all the duffle bags, rucksacks, and assorted items of equipment and supplies that usually fill up the inside of the vehicle. Although the exterior racks were intended primarily to free up space, not to provide protective stand-off against RPGs, the effect was the same. RPGs that struck the rack or its contents detonated some distance from the actual side of the vehicle."

A serious problem with the RPG-7 round is its point initiating base detonating fuse. The impact of the round sends an electrical charge through the round that sets it off. As a result, in Vietnam fabricated chain link, chicken wire, or concertina draped over a vehicle and pushed out from the vehicle many times caused the warhead not to explode and tended to short out the fuse. In many cases this left the grenade intertwined in the wire array. The Soviets attempts to reduce the susceptibility of the grenade to this countermeasure met with limited success. In Chechnya, the Russians used wire mesh cages fitted 20-30 centimeters from the hull of their troop carriers to protect their vehicles from their own invention. When and if the grenade did make it through the wire, it also had a tendency to explode early reducing the impact of the warhead exploding against the vehicle itself.

The following are proven tactics, techniques, and procedures to protect against an RPG-7 attack:

Avoid using the same route at the same time daily, weekly, or monthly.
Plan for and conduct aerial top cover for ground routes to detect ambush set up, focusing on the roofs of buildings and elevated firing platforms.
Helicopters should avoid take-off and landing on the same helipads, allow 500-meter dispersion to allow wingmen the full use of his ordnance against suspected targets.3/
Ensure M1A1 Abrams and M2 BFV are responsive to possible RPG-7 ambushes and are aware that they must push through ambush positions (to stop and provide a base of fire only sets up a target).
Dismounts must work with armored vehicles to provide local security and support to prevent multiple RPG attacks.
Pre-planned indirect fire on suspected ambush sites is a very effective method in dealing with a possible ambush and a logical solution to disrupt or destroy an RPG team.
Use smoke grenades and obscurants to interfere with RPG targeting.
The RPG-7 is a test case for a review of weapon evolution. This grenade launcher is in fact a hybrid of the World War II German Panzerfaust. As a weapon system it gives infantry or guerrillas a capability to attack and destroy vehicles of all types given the right conditions. The real advantage of this weapon system is the cost, ease of use, and lethality. The disadvantage of conducting a close combat attack is the danger of immediate retribution from a superior force. In Iraq that disadvantage is diminished because the attacker is often willing to give up his life in an effort to create casualties and political unrest. Superior planning and execution against this system is the key to success. This is not a first use throw-away weapon system. Training and expertise have to be developed with the RPG-7, and once attackers are killed, new soldiers must be found, motivated, trained, and rearmed to make the system effective.

Footnotes:

Captain Scott C. Jansen. "The Story of the Rocket Propelled Grenade." RED THRUST STAR. April 1997.
Jane's Infantry Weapons. Terry J. Gander and Ian V. Hogg, editors. Surrey: Jane's Information Group, 1995, p. 303-305.
Les Grau. "The RPG-7 on the Battlefield of Today and Tomorrow." Infantry Magazine, May-August 1998.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DemoTex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. OK Ace, what is your point?
This is a theoretical paper by the same motherfuckers that got us in this quagmire and the last (Vietnam). The citations are specious, at best. The solid evidence of RPG efficacy is against hard, stationary targets. Again, I will not argue that some slow, low hanging fruit is not plucked by an RPGer. But you are not convincing in your meritritious argument that an RPG is an effective AA weapon against a helicopter in most modes of flight other than HIGE/HOGE, and/or translation to or from the hovering modes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Patriot_Spear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. My point was a minor one...

Don't get your panty's in a wad-

The RPG-7 is a versitle, effective weapon; it was used very effectively in Afghanistan. I don't think it's all that far-fetched to think that the Iraqi resistance is relying on unsophisticated weapons they know inside and out.

That is all.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DemoTex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Have you any combat experience against Soviet or Chicom RPGs?
My panty's are not wadded or stained. I've dealt with the RPG - older versions, but like the AK-47 and ZPU-57 the old is the new. Very little difference in these weapons. Again, OK for shooting down a helicopter HIGE/HOGE, but a long shot for a fly-by. BTW: Know what HIGE/HOGE is?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Patriot_Spear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. NO.
Edited on Sun Nov-16-03 12:01 AM by Patriot_Spear
I was 19D Cav Scout from 84 to 90. My experience is strictly peace time. What is HIGE/HOGE?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DemoTex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Well, FWIW
Edited on Sun Nov-16-03 12:13 AM by DemoTex
I cannot remember a single shoot-down, or even a discussion of a shoot-down, by a RPG, B-40, or any similar weapon in the whole of the Vietnam war. I'm sure it happened. I could shoot down a HIGE (hovering in ground effect) helicopter with a sling-shot, I guess. Once that helicopter translates to forward flight, the best marksman in your unit won't shoot him down with an RPG.

Sorry: HIGE is hovering-in-ground effect. HOGE is hovering-out-of ground effect. Ground effect is usually defined at 1/2 wing (or rotor) span.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Patriot_Spear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-16-03 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. What was your MOS?
We got to play around with the Soviet equipment at Benning and up in North Georgia at Camp Merril- But I did spend some time in Blackhawks- eve crashed in one. I read accounts from Soviet Vets from Afghanistan about how the Afghans used the RPG on everything.

At the end, I just don't think Saddam had that many SAMS lying around. I guess we'll find out one way or another.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ksec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 10:40 PM
Response to Original message
10. So would that be considered
taken by the enemy or an accident caused by the pilot?

He rose to avoid fire..and collided with the other one in the act of trying to get away from groundfire..
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DemoTex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Just like flying the Ho Chi Mihn Trail at night ...
If I jink to avoid 57 mm AAA fire, my wingman damned well better spread and jink too. However, sometimes that shit happens too quick. Way too quick. I could never see the tactical rationale of real close helicopter formation flight anyway, other than multiple landings in a tight LZ.

One can normally bail out of a close encounter with another F-4C. Helicopter mid-air collisions almost always sends good people to graves registration (the morgue).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
11. It Doesn't Matter
Edited on Sat Nov-15-03 10:44 PM by Beetwasher
To the people to which it counts the most it's a kill. They are going fucking nuts over this in Iraq, you can count on it. You think they don't know about David and Goliath?

In this country, it doesn't matter much either how they try to mitigate it. It's still VERY bad news for chimp who would be Ceasar..
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DemoTex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-15-03 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Excellent point, my friend!
If they indeed shot down helicopter #1 with a slingshot (or SAM), and in doing so got a second helicopter to a mid-air collision, a bonus - lagniappe as they say in New Orleans - they are indeed going fucking nuts. I've been thinking along those lines all day.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri Apr 19th 2024, 08:25 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC