NY Times review of the Jefferson-Jackson dinner

[pruner]

Forget Dean, Gephardt and the Rest. For a Night, the Focus Is on Hillary Clinton.

From the moment the doors opened Saturday night to the Jefferson-Jackson Dinner — the annual fund-raising event that the Iowa Democratic chairman, Gordon Fischer, described with sardonic understatement as the most important political event "in the world" — it was clear that the dinner was largely about someone who is not even running for president, at least not this year.

It was more about Hillary Rodham Clinton, the New York senator who was the dinner's mistress of ceremonies, and who, in coming here, began a new phase in one of the most closely watched political careers in the nation.

<snip>

That is not to say to say that the candidates running this year did not seek to make a splash in this crowded and colorful celebration of politics in downtown Des Moines. In particular, Senators John Kerry of Massachusetts and John Edwards of North Carolina offered what aides described as attacks on Dr. Dean, whose raucous reception here served as a testimony of his political standing in the race.

"Anger won't change America, action will ," said Mr. Edwards, who, like Mr. Kerry, never mentioned Dr. Dean by name. "If we are the party of anger in 2004, we will not win. But if we transform that anger into a positive vision of America, we will win in 2004."

Mr. Kerry said: "We need to offer answers not just anger, solutions not just slogans. So, Iowa, don't just send them a message next January — send them a president. We need somebody who can do the job."

When his turn came, Dr. Dean ignored his two rivals, instead working the crowd into a frenzy as he chanted, "You have the power to take this country back!" Mr. Edwards and Mr. Kerry watched, stone-faced, with their hands in their laps.

<snip>

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/16/politics/16HILL.html?ex=1069563600&en=74b5a9f9ffd8601a&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

[JCMach1]

1. So dies the DLC...

and none too soon...!

[oasis]

2. Forty three busloads of supporters should make an impresssion.

[tlb]

38. So the DLC is rejuvinated.

Hillary was the star, not the people who might be able to retaek the party from the DLC.

Showing them who the boss is I suppose, and how they better remember their place if they want access to the Clinton money machine.

[MessiahRp]

101. That report is BS...

As was the extremely skewed AP report that said that there was this massive push to "Draft Hillary" is so full of shit it's amazing, yet they tried to act like there was a massive push.

Here's the legit story.

One guy had a small table with a handmade sign made with marker on tag board that said "Draft Hillary" on it. He manned it alone and had nothing else on it. Wow, that's intense!! (sarcasm)

I suppose the one guy that took a Gore/Lieberman 2000 sign and duct taped over Lieberman and wrote a 4 over Gore on it made it seem like thousands wanted Gore to run too.

I was there. Hillary got support, as a strong Democratic leader and a good hostess, which she was. She gets our respect for what she does for the party and being a first lady of one of the best Presidential Administrations in the 20th Century.

But everyone was there for the candidates. It was the Kerry and Dean show quite honestly. Edwards had a distant third in supporters, and Gephardt was a very disappointing fourth. Kucinich had like 20 people and Braun didn't even have a sign. Pretty sad actually when you consider that Braun had to follow the loud and enthusastic support garnered by Kerry and Dean and got respectful applause more than anything.

Hillary was a nice touch to help Iowa Dems fundraising efforts, but the people were there for the candidates plain and simple and this is just the Media doing it's best to try to water down Bush's opponents. The rich continue to help the rich.

Rp

[blm]

59. Hardly. Dean has converted many liberals here into neo-centrist supporters

The DLC must be thrilled that so many lefties now see Dean and his LONGTOME centrist record as "pragmatism." Dean is one of those DLC who throughout his career kept pulling the party right, even while his own state was shifting further to the left.

It was liberals like Kerry who maintained their lefty credentials and balanced the rightwingers at the DLC throughout that same time period.

[SahaleArm]

3. Howard Dean supports busing.

Supporters, particularly those of Howard Dean, the former Vermont governor, were bused in to fill the streets and the seats..

Dean's now resorting to busing? :evilgrin:

[pruner]

4. only because so many supporters showed up

the campaign had to get a parade permit

[ShaneGR]

7. I'm a Clark guy, and I have NO problem with Bussing

Actually, I hope to god Clark does it in the South. And I hope to God the Democratic Nominee, whoever it is, does it during the General election. People SHOULD be given the opportunity to travel to their canidate. From EVERYWHERE.

[SahaleArm]

13. Off topic.

tOSU needs to bring back the glory days:evilgrin:

[Skidmore]

9. In this rural state, it is not out of the ordinary for groups of people

to charter buses to go to events of any type that are some distance away. People even charter buses to take trips to large malls or family reunions. We do not have routine public transportation between towns or cities here--no passenger trains or buses. I don't read this as anything more than an urban person's interpretation of what he/she thinks happened in terms of people getting to the event. I wouldn't read much into it. I don't believe Howard Dean or any of the other candidates are like Bush at all.

[sandnsea]

12. He's been doing it all along

I wouldn't be surprised to find Kerry did it too this time, to be honest. Other campaigns might want to get 'on board'. There's no rules this election season.

[Skwmom]

33. It's really nothing new.

Doesn't George Bush bus in supporters all the time?

[killbotfactory]

58. You're just jealous he's the only one with enough supporters to bus in...

:evilgrin:

[Skwmom]

94. So he busses in these young kids

who like to listen to Dean chant you have the power, you have the power, you have the power.

[aldian159]

92. Good point

I was there for Kerry and most of us drove, not bussed.

And I think we we're louder.

We set ourselves up by the exit chanting "Kerry" and "JK all the way" and "Bring it on!." John Edwards himself had to run our gauntlet to get to his motorcade (but he was very classy, stopping to shake hands and hug Kerry fans. Edwards rocks)

The Kerry campaign is alive and kicking, ladies and gentleman.

[MessiahRp]

100. Much louder

The C-SPAN airing didn't show it but the Kerry people almost matched the numbers of people that those "43 busses" that Dean brought in had. We were there, we were loud, and quite honestly we did a better job supporting Kerry than the Dean people did for their guy. When our guy was up we chanted all the way and cheered extremely loudly and when Dean people tried to shout us down they were practically muted by our enthusiasm. When they went nuts we still were able to chant "Kerry" over them.

Saturday Kerry's campaign was practically revitalized with the new Real Deal approach, and the after bar meeting with him was awesome as well. I traveled 8 1/2 hours each way via car/bus from Appleton, WI to Des Moines, IA and although my feet were nearly dead from standing, my voice was nearly gone from yelling, and my energy never wavered because I really felt that the man I would be talking to later that night was the right man for the Presidency.

Dean's supporters did well tonight, but at least for tonight, Kerry supporters did better and we should be proud that Kerry's speech and approach matched our undying support tonight.

If anyone paid serious attention, really it became a two man race tonight. Kerry and Dean.

Rp

[DrFunkenstein]

5. Why Does He Assume They Were Talking About Dean?

<>

[SahaleArm]

6. You have the power!

[DrFunkenstein]

8. Are You Suggesting Dean Is Using Self-Help Psychology?

<>

You have the power!!!

(Doesn't Skeletor kind of look like Gephardt?)

<>

[SahaleArm]

11. The Church of Dean

She just changed her shirt to Dean for America:evilgrin:

[pruner]

24. bow down before you enter

[bearfartinthewoods]

39. i decided not to watch last night

so i was reading in bed with my back to the TV when she-bear turned the channel. i heard, what i thought was some rerun of jimmy swaggart
chanting powah-powah-powah. imagine my surprise when i rolled over and saw it was Dean.

[blm]

63. That's the whole thing that irks me. No substance

just soundbites. Big on Faith, short on Hope for REAL solid answers.

I think the world is tired of shoot from the lip, demagoguery from American politicians. They'd like an intelligent, thoughtful wellspoken leader with a strong grasp of world matters, who they KNOW they can work with.

[Julien Sorel]

17. Holy shit, is that photoshopped?

His head looks like it's about to pop off. There are people who think this guy is presidential?

[Spider Jerusalem]

19. Wow, his face is brick-red.

Looks like he's about to give himself a thrombosis, or something. Looks like a man deeply in need of anger management. We ALREADY have an intemperate loudmouth with a short fuse in the White House...why do we need to replace him with another one? (this will inevitably draw some criticism; see Dean's various sniping and petty comments regarding other candidates; blatant generalisations and off-the-cuff remarks he's retracted or quantified; prevalence of anger as his driving emotion and the one he seeks to tap into with voters, etc.)

[salin]

61. not as red as some of the others in the pic... think color tone of picture

when you see a crowd with that many redfaced people. The comments above are really misleading - it is an awful pic in color tones - for the whole audience. Thrombosis... right.

[Spider Jerusalem]

62. I just looked at the picture, very closely...

I don't see this "color tone" you're speaking of. The only other red face I see is a woman in the left background who doesn't seem to know how to apply rouge or blush or whatever you call it properly...and note, if you will, the variance in skin tone between Dean's face and his hands and wrists. Most definitely RED, excess of blood to the head, flushed, angry, etc.

[salin]

67. tone

on the nose/cheeks and ears of the man just behind him (slightly right). Fingers of the hands clapping just behind Dean's face (slightly to the left). Fingers of the palm side of the hands clapping in the right hand bottom of the picture (and for some reason the palm side has it but the back of the hand doesn't).

There are so many reasons to take a critical look at each candidate - but when we blur silly things (and this - to my eyes appears as one - it is a funky tone in the picture -and the odd color aspect shows up throughout the picture (eg also the left hand cheeck of the man behind the woman with the red cheeks) - to tie it to an aspect that you are critical of (legit opinion) to "prove" or strengthen the opinion - sort of cheapens the discussion point - and discredits it to those who are fence sitters (by making it a more apparent slam rather than point of consideration - to which many then just dismiss the content). It also helps to perpetuate the level of discourse here that sometimes is so superficial, ugly - and off point (having nothing to do with the policies/stands etc. of candidates) that get thrown about and pointed at each of the candidates in these fora.

Not to worry - this post is not alone in this category - just targeting it to the red-face made it an easy example to hold up. These types of criticisms (that move to superficial or subjective 'evidence' to prove a point) pointed against any of the democratic candidates (and we do post a lot of them here) always read as a bit fatuous - at least to some DU readers. Well - I shouldn't say that - can't speak to others (except reading sentiments that are similar) so I should say more precisely that they come off as fatuous to this DU reader.

[Spider Jerusalem]

70. I was commenting upon the picture...

Not using it as "evidence" to prove any sort of point; Governor Dean's documented actions and observed public behaviour are quite enough to convince me that the man is an angry, spleen-filled demagogue most of whose support is based upon an appeal to emotion rather than logic (as I've stated elsewhere in this thread); more bluster than substance, more presentation than product; and that is more than sufficient reason for me to come to the conclusion that he's entirely unsuitable as a serious Presidential candidate (but I'll still vote for him if he's the nominee).

[Eloriel]

68. Oh, get real

When you're shouting to be heard, you're going to have a pretty intense look about you.

You folks who are jumping in this shit need to actually watch the guy sometime. You know, to like, GET A FUCKING CLUE.

Eloriel

[Spider Jerusalem]

72. "shouting to be heard"?

With a microphone and a stadium-grade speaker setup? Perhaps you should get some fucking manners. Seems you're sorely lacking in them.

[aldian159]

93. I have seen the guy live, Eloriel

and he is a lot of anger.

Dean is the ultimate Monday morning QB, saying he would have done this and wouldn't have done that. He never got a chance to vote on the bills he bashes Kerry and Edwards and Gephardt for endorsing, which isn't his fault, but saying what he would and could have done gets me nowhere.

I felt like I was at one of those Bill Graham preach-a-thons at the JJ last night when the doctor was in.

[Skwmom]

95. How do you think Dean would have voted considering he

made the following statement 9 times (well according to Dean that is)

He (Dean) gets a deluge of phone calls from reporters asking him to clarify his position. Which is -- "as I've said about eight times today," he says, annoyed -- that Saddam must be disarmed, but with a multilateral force under the auspices of the United Nations. If the U.N. in the end chooses not to enforce its own resolutions, then the U.S. should give Saddam 30 to 60 days to disarm, and if he doesn't, unilateral action is a regrettable, but unavoidable, choice.

http://fordean.org/aa/issues/press_view.asp?ID=398

Can we say anti-war opportunist.

[sandnsea]

10. This is a total lie

From the time the first Democrat opened their mouth to speak the entire focus of that event was Democratic unity and offering hope instead of anger. Not just from Kerry and Edwards, from all of them. Dennis made a huge deal about praising all of the candidates. They all did. Those were the only two comments that could be remotely considered digs against Dean.

Then it was Dean's turn. And he was a moronic ass. He stood on stage basking in the applause saying thank you thank like some kind of diva. Then it was Bash Bush, Bash Democrats, send money, you've got the power. It was weird and scary. I've seen the same kinds of comments posted by supporters of the other candidates too. Here's a much fairer report, from MSNBC of all places.

http://msnbc.com/news/994031.asp

[pruner]

14. Dean's turn – in your words

He stood on stage basking in the applause saying thank you thank like some kind of diva.



Then it was Bash Bush, Bash Democrats, send money, you've got the power.



It was weird and scary.

[sandnsea]

20. You forgot the finale

:nuke:

[pruner]

23. you're right… he killed

[sandnsea]

27. himself

from self-inflicted wounds.

[unfrigginreal]

15. If I had to defend Kerry's performance tonight...

I'd make up crap about the other guy. Sure would.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. Why Are People Posting At 5 A M?

NT

[unfrigginreal]

18. You go first.

nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

21. I'm Doing Penance For My Wrong Prediction

see my Jindal V Blanco thread.....

[sandnsea]

22. Read the article

I didn't make anything up.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. Without Getting Into The Partisan Thicket

these events are Rorsach tests for the press...

MSNBC and the NYT saw two different events...

[sandnsea]

28. Yep

I saw the MSNBC event. I don't know where the hell the NYT was at.

Seriously, I hope Dean posts his 'speech', and all the rest of the candidates too, so we can compare. I've only seen him in debates and interviews. If this was his standard stump power 'em up type speech, we're in so much trouble.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[chimpymustgo]

37. Why so bitter? Dean seemed "off" last night. And the creepy chant...

He should really re-think that. Maybe it works when it's just fellow travellers. But in mixed company - it is very off-putting.

[Spider Jerusalem]

41. So finding things to dislike about Dean means one should go to FR?

Wow, you're intolerant, eh? Bit thin-skinned, too...it's not about the campaign, it's about the candidate...and it's possible to see negatives in the candidate without being a right-wing disruptor or whatever other bitchy insults you want to sling at people who just DON'T LIKE the man (although I have to say your little burst of anger is very appropriate, as, from what I've seen of him, I've no doubt the good doctor would do the same).

[blm]

66. Kerry sounds like a world leader, not Jimmy Swaggart

or someone auditioning for talk radio.

[Julien Sorel]

26. Holy shit, part II

At the end of his speech, in a stentorian voice, Dean shouted the phrase “You have the power!” 14 times.


Christ, what is this party coming to? If the Republicans had a candidate who did this sort of shit, the same people who have nightly masturbatory fantasies about Dean would be giggling in superior mirth at the freeper fools -- but they don't see it at all. Dean is a ridiculous, pandering clown, but he's theirridiculous, pandering clown, so that's what counts.

Just what the average, non-politicized American wants to hear in a general election: a short, slightly fat, awkward-looking little man with a beet-red face chanting 'You have the power,' who, they are told, wants to raise their taxes, is soft on terrorism, and whose only governing experience was of a tiny, liberal state with a population smaller than lots of cities have.

The whole thing is fucking absurd.

[chimpymustgo]

29. BillyBunter - THANK YOU. It's a parallel universe.

Howard Dean is a parody of a candidate, with his creepy, finger pointing, preaching, sceaming, come-to-Jesus JIVE.

He cannot be the nominee. This is absurd. Wake up.

[blm]

75. Yes...they WANT a demagogue. They want THEIR demagogue.

They don't seem to want a thoughtful, well spoken world leader with a strong grasp on national security.

All the things they saw as weaknesses in Bush against Gore, they now praise in Dean and treat Kerry as Gore was treated. Go figure.

[Skwmom]

83. Check out this entry from the Dean blog .

"So make no mistake about it fellow Deaniacs ... this will only get more difficult with each passing day.

When the going gets tough and you feel like you can't possibly get that defiant neighbor to even give you the time of day about our candidate ... take a deep breath and repeat after Howard Dean, "You have the power .... you have the power!" "

I think an expert on cults should take a look at the Dean campaign (and I mean this in ALL seriousness).

[Skwmom]

34. I called several family and friends to get their reactions.

Most thought Kerry did the best(Kucinich was complimented for his sincerity and touching story). They thought Dean was scary with his repeating of you have the power, you have the power,you have the power, you have the power, you have the power...... Earlier he said something along the lines of this isn't about electing Howard Dean president, this is about electing us president. This is really weird.

[blm]

76. Perot did the same in 92.

Perot + Jerry Brown = Centrist demagogue using populist rhetoric.

Dean

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

30. You know what gets me about this thread?

I read, again and again about Dean and why he was bad, but I didn't read any details about the POSITIVE things said by the candidates. Kerry's speech, which was quoted on another thread, I found to be quite good. I've only heard that Edwards and Kucinich said some good things, but notice no positive comments about them here. I've seen nothing about Mosley-Braun's speech, and am not sure what Gephardt, the front runner in Iowa, said. This disappoints me, as I don't get CSPAN and came here to get information about the JJ Dinner.

IMHO, bashing a candidate is counterproductive, as it doesn't change anyone's mind. Personally, although I support Dean, if he isn't the candidate, I'll gladly support whoever is the candidate. The important thing is to keep your eyes on the prize-the White House.

So, does anyone out there who saw the event have comments about the great speeches ALL the candidates made?

[chimpymustgo]

31. There are whole THREADs full of comments about the dinner.

Edwards gave a fantastic, upbeat rousing speech. Kerry was also excellent.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

32. I'm finding that out

Just started reading the threads, and I go from the latest news back. But no matter where threads are, I do get discouraged when one degenerates into candidate bashing, be it Dean bashing, Kerry bashing, Clark bashing, or whatever.

[JNelson6563]

36. here's some explanation

In an hourlong interview on a public radio program in Concord on Wednesday, Mr. Kerry, who two months ago publicly chastised his campaign manager for assailing Dr. Dean, again and again turned questions about his own views into attacks on Dr. Dean, until his host finally politely asked that Senator Kerry use his time to talk about Senator Kerry.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/09/politics/campaigns/09DEMS.html?pagewanted=2&hp

It's just an obsession. I'm not sure about the Clarkies who revel in hate mongering though....only theories. ;-)

Julie

[bearfartinthewoods]

50. maybe because some of us are coming to the point of ABD

i'm not an Edwards supporter or a Kerry supporter or a Geph supporter.

i am now officially ABD for the primary. that chant thing WAS creepy.
i believe in the seperation of church and state and extend that to seperation of cult and state as well.

[CWebster]

40. Well gee, how helpful it is to have our loyal Democratic candidates

do the Republican's work for them.

Edwards, I can't even be bothered to watch him, but Kerry, gawd, what an embarrassing loser he is.

[Spider Jerusalem]

42. WTF?

So you think the candidates SHOULDN'T contrast themselves from the other contenders for the nomination in their speeches? You think doing so is "doing the Republicans' work for them"?

You don't think Dean is an embarassing loser when he pointedly and deliberately makes statements which insult other Democratic candidates? Hmm? Which, you know, he's done MORE than the others...same rules apply, or should. Are you just pissed because the other contenders aren't giving up and anointing Dean as nominee (even though the primaries are still MONTHS away)? If so, too bad...get over it.

[Julien Sorel]

44. Embarrassing loser:

"You have the power." "You have the power." "You have the power."
"You have the power." "You have the power." "You have the power." "You have the power." "You have the power." "You have the power." "You have the power." "You have the power." "You have the power." "You have the power." "You have the power." "You have the power."

[Philosophy]

49. This is exactly why people SUPPORT Dean

He has enthusiasm and can fire up a crowd, unlike the other frontrunners who simply drone out statistics and soundbites like robotic Al Gore clones. In fact I think a good part of Dean's appeal is that he is so unlike Al Gore in temperment, and the name Al Gore does have a connotation of loser, deservedly or not. We don't want to lose again, so we are trying something completely different.

[Skwmom]

56. I'm not a Kerry supporter but I think Kerry did a great job

of firing up the crowd at the Iowa Dinner. But he did it in a manner which wasn't creepy or frightening.

[janx]

64. Absolutely. I talked to a friend of mine last night who could

not bring herself to vote for Gore. She voted for Nader because she couldn't stand Bush but didn't like Gore either. (She said she just didn't have any enthusiasm over him.) But she's fired up by Dean! I took her to one of the "live" Dean events early this year, and she really liked Dean but she said he was too good to be true. Now she's ecstatic and sending money.

The Dean campaign is really about grass roots democracy. Everyone is trying to imitate it, understandably, but we got an early start, so we're ahead. I'm hoping beyond measure that the general election, regardless of who the Dem candidate is, retains this momentum. If it does, it'll be a bright day indeed!

[Zomby Woof]

77. *completley* different?

Hey, Hitler and Mussolini had "enthusiasm" and could "fire up a crowd" too. Plus, they had anger to burn. Nothing new under the sun.

[blm]

80. ouch....you don't mess around.

I was being polite using Jimmy Swaggart.

;)

[CWebster]

45. By using Republican talking points?

Please.

Dean is gonna sweep it. He spoke for me and all the other rightfully angry and disappointed citizens who watched the Dems cave and stand "shoulder to shoulder" with the dimwit son. His criticisms had to be spoken, we were waiting for someone to represent us and speak to the reality, rather than be swept up in the spin. So, while the others spout their bitter resent at an outsider crashing their party, Dean connects with us.

The choice is yours.

[Spider Jerusalem]

46. Dean DOESN'T connect with me...

as I should think I've made plain. In fact, I find the man rather off-putting. Dean may be a fine candidate for people who make decisions on the basis of emotion and not logic; I am not and never will be one of those people. As you say, the choice is mine, and, should Governor Dean win the Democratic nomination, I shall vote for him in the general election...but he hasn't won the nomination, and, as we're still months away from the primaries, it's very far from certain that he will.

[CWebster]

47. A quick overview of the threads

indicates so much open hostility towards Dean from other camps---even on threads where Dean went out of his way to help someone who needed a Dr, only indicates how scared, desperate and bitter those other campaigns have become. Like I said, who needs Republicans?

[CWebster]

48. And another thing...

The use of superior argument based on self-appointed reason or logic is indication of lack of substance.

[Spider Jerusalem]

51. No...

the use of argument based upon appeals to emotion rather than logic is indicative of a lack of substance (and a classic technique of propaganda and psychological warfare). Nice try, though.

[bearfartinthewoods]

52. the problem is most of the voters in this country are not angry

you really think most regular people, not dem activists will sit through you have the power, over and over and not get the creeps?

[Ardee]

55. I respect your opinion, CW

but I do not share it ,in this one case at any rate. I do not wish to make this a Dean bashing post but the poster who mentioned that Dean excited him because ,"He has enthusiasm and can fire up a crowd, unlike the other frontrunners who simply drone out statistics and soundbites like robotic Al Gore clones" scares the shit right out of me!

What that poster seems to be saying is, never mind the platform, never mind the politics of the candidate, never mind common sense and logic, Im going to vote for the demagogue who excites me most............

I wish that the supporters of every candidate would first do their homework, research the history of the candidates, as well as their voting records, instead of simply sitting on their fat behinds waiting for the first phoney who comes along, lies to them, but does it with passion and energy...what the fuck kind of way is that to elect a President?

[CWebster]

81. Ardee?

That a candidate is exciting and inspiring is a bad thing? What makes it an exclusively emotional reaction devoid of reason? It is is the presentation, the ability to connect and resonate while conveying the message.

Kerry falls flat because of his inability to combine the issues with any human depth of character. Clark is a blank slate for fulfilling hero fantasies- Clinton's ace in the hole. Kucinich is just a little too unconventional. Dean is decent, intelligent, steely, direct, with a solid record and a broad appeal. I like him but I am not blind to his flaws. I can vote for him with some enthusiasm - any of the others would be votes against Bush.

[Ardee]

105. Deans solid record

is solidly to the right! He has come out against reduction of the bloated military budget, he has expressed concern that a national health program is unworkable unless privatised. He has, in his tenure as governor, reduced education budgets, cut safety nets for seniors and weakened environmental protections in favor of attracting corporations to vermont.

So , because he speaks with passion, you prefer to vote for a man like this?

[Gin]

43. Hillary was nothing more than the Mistress of ceremonies...

She didnt steal the show and didnt try...I will be happy once primaries begin.

If the Re-thugs like one thing for sure...it's discontent. It's their mothers milk.

My choice is Dean...if he doesn't get the nomination..then..my choice id whatever Democrat gets it.

Getting our country back is the issue.

[Rose Siding]

53. A la Fox News after the Wellstone memorial

and when Noonan wrote in Wellstone's voice about how his sons "should" have behaved.

There sits some of the establishment casting judgement on the appropriateness of public response to someone who doesn't warn us off of crying in our teacups but rather channels the energy into hope and determination and organization.

BTW, I saw a multiplicity of veins popping last night- Harkin hollered, God knows Kucinich, Kerry tried to work up to it (I guess because he's so mad that Dean's mad), Hil was even hooting with the best of them. And Dean, most effective, as usual. GOOD

[Karmadillo]

54. Adam Nagourney wrote the article, so it MUST be true.

last night was all about Hillary and Hate. And if you have any doubts, just remember the Times' reporting on Al Gore and Whitewater. All true, all the time.

Of course, if you watched the event on C-SPAN, you'd realize Nagourney is doing his usual spinning. Excellent speeches with substantive proposals ignored to focus on disagreements among the candidates. Disagreements? Horror! Candidates for the Presidency suggesting they're better qualified than their opponents? Outrageous! Those crazy Democrats clearly shouldn't be elected, no matter which one of them wins.

If you're interested, here are a few links to the Daily Howler about Nagourney's record of partisan spinning, including an endorsement from the equally trustworthy Andrew Sullivan.

http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh102703.shtml

EXTRA! IT’S TIME FOR NAGOURNEY TO GO: Adam Nagourney needs to be fired for his work in this morning’s New York Times. Our report appears later on in this post, under the heading “Unbearable lightness, part 2.” But Nagourney’s work is a piece of pure fraud. As Americans, we put up with this throughout Campaign 2000. It can’t be allowed to start again. It’s time for Nagourney to go.

more...

http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh073102.shtml

<edit>

HOW MULLAHS DECIDE: The pre-Enlightenment never stops when the winds blow you through Sullivan’s wild, tribal land. On Monday, the sultan patted himself on the back as he found something good in the Times:

SULLIVAN (7/29/02):
TWO SUPERB REALITY-CHECKS: Who says I can’t praise the Times? Their invaluable reporter Adam Nagourney reminds me today of why it still publishes superb, measured journalism. Here’s one smart piece of analysis. And one little scoop.

In fact, that “smart piece of analysis” is a classic example of a shaky reporting procedure. In preparing his piece, Nagourney conducted “a series of interviews over two days” with voters in Ontario, California...

more...

[Logansquare]

74. I agree-don't believe anything as interpreted by Nagourney

Talk about a "filter." He is consistently anti-Dem and tries to show us in the least-positive light. And I must say, this thread does as well.

[killbotfactory]

57. So optimism and empowerment = anger now

Do Dean's rival's have their fingers on pulse of the democrats, or what?



Look out for the anger!

[xchrom]

60. that gave me a chuckle

thanks.

[janx]

65. HA! I know...such an angry guy, eh?

What a great photo!

[killbotfactory]

89. Dean's a bomb waiting to explode!!!!

Would you trust this man with the nuclear button?!??!

[wildwww2]

106. If Bu$h is the only other choice. Then Dr. Dean can man that button. Yes!

I would not trust that Bu$h could run a McDonald`s without destroying it. Howard Dean can perform surgery for christ sakes. Bu$h has only performed surgery on our constitution. Am I not supposed to be afraid of this court appointed idiot?
Peace
Wildman
Al Gore is My President

[gristy]

69. Please, no more "You have the power"

This is the only thread I've read about the dinner, and Dean's behavior while chanting "you have the power" 14 times sounds familiar. I think the man is just getting carried away with himself. Lets cross our fingers that Trippi is going to pull back hard on his reigns (sp?) soon. As with many other posters on this thread, that kind of behavior makes me uncomfortable and is really kind of nuts.

[Rose Siding]

71. Is everyone so uncomfortable when marchers chant?

Is it kind of nuts to chant "this is what democracy looks like" at a rally?

I've seen Dean criticized here for not attending peace rallies but wouldn't that have just associated him with more of that "creepy" behavior?

[Skwmom]

82. Even if Trippi "pulls back hard on the reins,"

the fact remains that Howard Dean uncontrolled would engage in behavior that really is "kind of nuts." Is this the type of person we want with their hand on the button? I don't think so.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

86. What does that mean?

I hate to ask, because I think I know what the response will be. LOL.

[SahaleArm]

90. Some people like the televangelic attitude.

Some don't; I'm in need of a new President not a self-help guru.

[Zomby Woof]

73. Edwards is exactly right

I have been saying the same thing for weeks on end. Anger is a good selling point for fascists, but it doesn't serve the Democrats well.

And no, I don't support an Edwards candidacy - he needs at least another Senate term under his belt, and I don't like him giving up his Senate seat so that Elizabeth Dole becomes the senior senator from NC.

As for Edwards and Kerry sitting there with their hands in their lap - that is just polite attentiveness.

[Skwmom]

97. The irony of the situation.

They will paint the democratic party as raving, hate filled partisans (akin to Gingrich) during the general election and will pull it off if Dean is the nominee.

[CWebster]

78. What am I seeing?

A desperately frantic Clark corps with shock troops manning the board 24\7.

[DemNoir]

79. Rethinking my Dean support

I thought Dean was truly awful last night, embarrasing really. His attempt at southern preacher phrasing could not sound more phoney, and that "you have the power" thing went on so long it was horrifying.

While I like many of his ideas, I am coming to realize that his personality just will not play with the public.

Kerry is probably our best chance to win.

[chimpymustgo]

84. You are wise to see the reality of Howard Dean. Horrifying is an apt

description of the scene last night. There's plenty of time a settle on a candidate. As Dems we have to put forth our best - and we can most assuredly do better than Howard Dean.

[CWebster]

85. Dean ruled the night

The audience was his. This, of course, would be alarming to the supporters of other candidates - so where possible, like political web sites, they will be the foot soldiers for their candidate in smearing the most popular candidate.

I find it highly unlikely that any sincere Dean supporter would be disappointed with that performance.

[slinkerwink]

87. hey, the audio level on C-span didn't pick up the fact that Dean's

supporters were chanting "We have the power" back at him--that's why he said it a few times. I believe there's a post on the Dean blog from one of the supporters that was there that said that C-span's audio feed didn't accurately carry the full impact of the Dean supporters' vocal cheers there.

[DemNoir]

88. That may be true

But that is not that first time I have seen "you have the power" flop on television, where BTW most people see the candidate.

[Skwmom]

96. His supporters have been well trained

or should I say brainwashed.

Posted on the Dean blog:

When the going gets tough and you feel like you can't possibly get that defiant neighbor to even give you the time of day about our candidate ... take a deep breath and repeat after Howard Dean, "You have the power .... you have the power!"

[Forkboy]

98. I see the same thing from all candidates supporters

people aren't brainswashed because they like Dean,Clark,Kerry,Kucinich etc.Some of your own posts have much the same tone to my non-Dean non-Clark ears.

[SahaleArm]

99. Eventually it gets absurdly shrill.

14x?

"You Have The Power" has converted more people than any other phrase."

"Dean is right WE have the power. Even the Russians had to back down in Moscow, to the people."

http://www.blogforamerica.com/archives/002279.comments.html

http://www.blogforamerica.com/archives/002283.comments.html

[slinkerwink]

103. it's the same on the Clark blog...

don't make damn generalizations....:nuke:

[lumpy]

91. The repubs are celebrating all of this

Dean bashing that is leading to nowhere. This doesn't influence anyone. Sounds like the Baathists against the Shiites. Why don't youall' point up the qualities you like in your favorite candidates instead of bickering. The republicans are making hay out of this innane bickering and consider it to be a rift in the party. Or is that the intent?

[Red State Rebel]

102. Things are always contentious during the primaries...just remember

how nasty things got between the McCain and Bush camps during their primary.

In the end, when it really counts, we will all pull together for the chosen candidate.

[Zomby Woof]

104. who gives a shit what the repubs think?

There is no such thing as "bashing". If you don't think a candidate is any good, you say so. Democracy is messy and it requires conflict and differing opinions to sort things out. The Repubs hate democracy, and by the same token, demand conformity of thought and deed. Most of us will gather 'round when the time comes to - 11 months before the election is not the time to engage in happy talk and mobthink. Let the Repubs have that domain.