A Tale of Two Threads- Black Folks and White Folks on DU: The Lesson

[DuctapeFatwa]

The first thread was called "What's it like to be black in America?" and once the white posters got done saying what they thought it was like, it settled down into some very thoughtful, very informative posts from people answering the question.

The second thread "What's it like to be white in America," contained a lot of honesty, too, and some (maybe) unintentional humor: My favorite line -
"As a white, I rarely see racism"

The remarkable thing is that both threads took place on a message board which is supposed to be the raw bleeding edge of progressive leftism.

Another remarkable thing was the way the threads segregated, like public school lunch tables in 1960's Alabama.

America, even progressive America, is not ready to "have that discussion" as one of the bushlite ectomorphs blurted that it should, to his later regret.

America is not ready because white people do not want to hear the "How to tell if you're Black at Work" list, they don't want to believe the Driving While Black stories, all the little everyday things that add up and up and up if you're a person of color (because although we speak in terms of black and white, it is generally understood, at least by those affected, that we are talking about what it is like to NOT be white in America, whether that non-white is black, brown or beige.)

America is not ready because it is getting harder and harder for white folks to find black folks who will tell them what they want to hear: that everything is so much better now, and that all people of color are inexpressibly grateful to the immense sacrifices the white folks have made to let some crumbs fall down below the table, thus ending racism as a problem and making us all just Americans, no hyphens needed, and we won't forget it, no sir!

The process is slow and it is a process neither graceful nor complimentary to the human species, nor even confined to the United States, thus both threads can help us all come to a better understanding of events abroad as well as at home.

The sad old overplayed song of European colonization is the dominant note in the sulphurous fragrance of the conflict played out in the US weapons depot in the Levant, the list of countries - not only in the Middle East, but in Asia, Latin America, and the Mother of us all, Africa, is still in the throes of it, for the "end" was only in name, as the typical strategy of Great White Father has been to install Great Beige Father even as he has one snowy foot on the departing ship that will sail him back to his beloved land of ice and fine cheese.

However, in the haunting and true words of Jeanette Jurado:

"seasons change, people change"

Remember that it was barely over a half century ago that racial apartheid was the law of the land in the US, an artificial country born of genocide and suckled on slavery, all in the name of bringing more light unto mankind than Zion, based on a moment or two of lucidity in which Thomas Jefferson expropriated the Great Law of the Iroquois, in between impregnating a black woman whom he would not take as his wife.

Less than half a century ago, you could find African-Americans who would say, even when no white people were listening, that segregation was just and right, that they, our Mother's princely sons of Africa, were inferior to these remarkable Pink Ones who were among the last of humankind on earth to use tools or written language.

And you could find similar attitudes across the globe. But Roy Wilkins, and his homologues in Asia and Africa and elsewhere, died, and with them died the Majority World's love affair with Europe and everything European, leaving only a rather anachronistic but brisk trade in skin whiteners.

Needless to say, that is not enough for Sahib, who wants his loyal bearer back, not this brash new bearer who insists that the oil, and the diamonds, and the mahogany, and may God help us all, the toothfish, are HIS, and not Sahib's.

Pity Great Beige Father, for whom all the dollars in the world cannot buy the ability to go into a common marketplace with his people, without a battalion or two of Dyncorp indies, and return alive, doomed is he to spend all his days blushingly pissing Karzai-like, surrounded by a crowd of gaping dollabought rentacops.

So it is about transition, but not a rapid one, especially for those who are accustomed to measuring their country's history in centuries rather than millennia.


-------------
In accordance with the Uniform Code of Shape-Shifting Posting Rules, Volume 23, Chapter 87.5, Section vv-t, Paragraph mcmxviii, I have neither endorsed, volunteered for, contributed to, had sex with, or received crack from any candidate or fat-free candidate-like substance, nor am I employed by, affiliated with, or scheduled to have brunch with any regime or any government or principality, legitimate or illegitimate, natural or supernatural, nor any corporate entity, political action committee, focus group, quality circle, task force, college of cardinals or manufacturer of snack foods, and my views do not necessarily represent those of this site, the Vatican, Al Qaeda, or the Coca-Cola company, and I specifically deny knowledge of any pending agreement between myself and any combination of the above entities and Sanrio.

[JailBush]

1. The best symbol of racism in liberal Seattle is its public school

district, which liberals almost unanimously support or don't give a damn about.

Speaking of the Education Mafia, here's a topic that's as important as it is provocative: The Black Mafia.

I heard teachers use that term years ago, though not one would mention it in public. I discovered what I meant as I discovered frighteningly derelict black school officials. Most principals in the Seattle School Disrict are corrupt, but African Americans - who are grossly over-represented numerically - are all over the map. They are known for their tyranny, embezzling school funds, having sex with students and on and on.

But how can one say these things without sounding racist? And how DOES one explain the difference between black and white school officials? After years of brainstorming, I think I have the answer.

First, the Black Mafia does NOT represent the black community, any more than Bill Gates represents the white community. And the Seattle School District is run by the white Seattle Chamber of Commerce (which includes Microsoft). The Black Mafia is merely a smaller organized crime unit that is allowed to run roughshod over the district. I'm still not entirely sure why, but I have some clues.

First, blacks do have some political clout, and the white corporate masters may seek to pacify them by giving them a share in the spoils.

Second, modern principals are groomed to function as pit bulls, keeping the public at bay. Black principals have even more power because white teachers are afraid to criticize them, lest they be labeled racist. Virtually every black "leader" in Seattle - from the NAACP's Reverend Phyllis Beaumonte to former Mt. Zion pastor Samuel McKinney to Seattle Chamber of Commerce wh*re James Kelly is a collaborator - an Uncle Tom in popular slang.

What's especially remarkable is the intensity of the Black Mafia's war against Asian Americans. It's more invisible than wife beating, but it's very real.

And this isn't just a Seattle phenomenon. George W. Bush recruited several token blacks to serve in his cabinet, including Condoleeza Rice and Education Secretary Rod Paige. Another token black, John Stanford, was being groomed for Paige's position, but he died of leukemia.

But how many Asian American superstars can you name?

The black and white community could both move mountains if they just had the backbone to finger the Black Mafia and the larger corporate White Mafia. Yet few people criticize either one.

[Isome]

10. This is interesting.

It's not clear if you're referring to criminals in general (regardless of ethnicity), or a situation & circumstances specific to Seattle.

Here's something else:

"the Black Mafia (never heard that before) does NOT represent the black community, any more than Bill Gates represents the white community."

Wouldn't it be more analogous to say the Black Mafia doesn't represent Black people, any more than Asian Triads represent Asian people... or Pam Smart represents White women...?

[Terwilliger]

2. I agree with everything except...

The remarkable thing is that both threads took place on a message board which is supposed to be the raw bleeding edge of progressive leftism.

Who said that? I think it more reflects a moderately progressive liberal leftism that is afraid of seeming to be too far to the left already (as some would, no doubt, tell you)

[linazelle]

3. Excellent post

People just aren't sympathetic to special interests and that includes racial and ethnic issues. I think this is a natural since we gravitate toward people who are like us and to topics that reflect our own interests--not our differences. That's why we are here at DU instead of at Free Republic.

I am pretty guilty of this--if you want to call it guilty. If a hispanic movie is aired, I am likely not to watch it just like I won't watch golf or car races. I probably won't watch a movie about gays. I'm just not interested. And that's why I don't think America is ready--they aren't interested in the topic and they may never be.

It took civil unrest, a civil rights movement, to spark the changes we've seen so far. With most of America being marginalized by politics, it will take more than a dialogue to further the transition that's needed to equalize race relations in America.

[BevHarris]

4. Yes, we still have our tribal tendencies

Going back to the days where clans had to stick together; perhaps it is something in our genetic makeup. We trust our own, and we generally want to hang around our own.

When I married an African-American, I confess that at first I was annoyed that in my new, blended family, they seemed like they were always, ALWAYS watching black movies.

But you have to reverse that, don't you? I mean, all of the videos I brought into my marriage were predominantly white. Oh, I'd think "Shawshank Redemption, that's got Morgan Freeman" -- but then look at the role. He's the "safe" and supportive black man for a white hero. That, you know, is one of the real problems Al Sharpton has with getting elected -- he's not perceived as "safe" like Colin Powell (yet who killed off our sons?).

We have a long, long way to get close to each other. Speaking as one who's gotten very close to one.

Bev Harris
http://www.blackboxvoting.org

[_Jumper_]

24. I thought our tribe was the United States of America

:shrug:

[DrWeird]

26. "Us" depends on who "Them" are.

nt

[Karenina]

29. Oh you WEIRD DOC!

You lucked out this time. My keyboard still works!!! :silly:

[_Jumper_]

48. Why cannot we all be part of "us"?

Why cannot we be a national tribe where we all consider each others as being "our people"? "Them" should be foreign nations.

[DuctapeFatwa]

49. Because "we" ARE foreign nations

That is part of the roughness of the transition.

Tribalism has no place in a nation where you can find streets filled with children eating biryani burritos made with injera bread and topped with kimchi and arguing in a peculiar mix of various languages about whether tortillas come from Mexico or China, which they know because their respective Pakistani and Ethiopian mothers said so!

We are one tribe, but borders and geography have for all practical purposes, gone the way of the 8-track tape.

We just have to help out the silly old Luddites who haven't made the appropriate changes to their music collections and dashboard.

[BevHarris]

36. Jumper: America is a tossed salad, not a melting pot

And that's a good thing, not a bad thing.

[Insider]

5. and an excellent reply

however the special interest known as 'corporation' seems to be covered nicely. they get EVERYthing they want... (including defjam and BET)

[BevHarris]

6. Well, let me tell you about BET

for a long time now, I've know this: I've had a publicity firm with a preponderance of black publicists. They always did great with all groups, except certain BLACK media outlets like BET. We learned to have the white publicists call BET, because we invariably got a better response.

Actually, this race thing is way complex.

Bev

[Karenina]

20. "Actually, this race thing is way complex."

You KNOW it girlfriend from up close and personal. Reading through these threads together, my kid tells me of being followed by security through a store UNTIL he calls out to his white dad. SUDDENLY he's no longer a "risk." Would that those in homogeneous family structures cared enough to understand. They don't. They don't have to.

The BBV phenomena is but an extension. Would that those in their homogeneous political bubbles cared enough about DEMOCRACY to understand. They resist. They don't. They don't have to.

It's SOOOO FICKEN STOOOPID as anyone with a Microshit-filled PC has been there. Crashes, lost data, glitches... DENY, DENY, DENY.

Those intimately involved with people "different" from themselves constantly face those whose programs are filled with superflous shit. Their arguments crash, their data is faulty, and the GLITCHES... "Don't you realize that was a DEMOCRATIC policy that allowed you to be paid a living wage, get a loan, file a complaint, feed your kids... :argh:

Your BET story does NOT surprise me at all, having done a stint at Rogers and Cowan back in the day. :-)

[BevHarris]

38. Hi, Karenina.

great imagery.

Those intimately involved with people "different" from themselves constantly face those whose programs are filled with superflous shit. Their arguments crash, their data is faulty, and the GLITCHES... "

[Sapphocrat]

16. Fascinating (seriously)...

If a hispanic movie is aired, I am likely not to watch it just like I won't watch golf or car races. I probably won't watch a movie about gays. I'm just not interested. And that's why I don't think America is ready--they aren't interested in the topic and they may never be.

Sincere question here: Why do you think you're not interested?

Okay, this may turn into something that sounds like I'm hassling you, but I swear, I'm not trying to. I'm really puzzled by your statement, and I really, really want to understand why you feel this way. So I'm going to throw a bunch of scenarios and questions at you; my apologies if any of it makes you feel defensive, as that's not my purpose at all.

That said...

As a white woman myself, I've always been "interested" in movies about people different (on the surface, that is) from myself. Simply put, these are cultures unlike my own, and I guess my interest lies in my enjoyment of seeing how alike we are, rather than how we are different. My life experience is far removed from that of, say, the poverty-stricken protagonists of "Sounder," the traumatized and desperate brother and sister of "El Norte," or the duty-bound concubine of "Raise the Red Lantern." But the thing that draws me to such films is that regardless of the situation, I can indeed personally relate to the joy and pain of each of these characters.

It's been said that the reason a movie can make you cry is that something in the film triggers a painful memory from your own experience. And maybe that's exactly why I can feel so much for a character in a film whose experience seems so different from my own: I may be white, but I'm also a lesbian. I'll never know exactly what it's like to be black, or Hispanic, or Asian -- but I understand on a much deeper level what it's like to be treated badly, discriminated against, and torn between one's nature and the expected "norm."

(Technically, I won't ever know what it's like to be a gay man either, yet I bawl like a baby throughout the latter half of "Longtime Companion," every time.)

Do you (or does anyone reading) think that one needs to share that sort of thin thread of experience in order to be "interested" in movies or books or other media that on the surface have no relation to one's own life?

What about non-U.S.-made movies? For instance, are you not interested in, say, Lina Wertmuller's films, because they're Italian -- or because they're "foreign-language"? (Remember that the main characters in Wertmuller films are predominantly white.) What about French films? Russian?

How about Australian movies? Aussie culture is mind-blowingly "American" -- but Aussies do sound different from Americans. If an Aussie movie (think "Muriel's Wedding," "Mad Max," or "Crocodile Dundee," to jog your memory) might interest you, would you no longer be interested in Australian movies if that category included films in which the protagonists were Aboriginal? Now there's a culture extremely different from your own...

Or what about a movie about a family of Kiwis who look, live, and have the same problems as countless American families -- but whose lives are bound closely to Maori warrior culture?

Here's a good one: Would you watch "The Nun's Story" (Audrey Hepburn) if you weren't a nun? How about "The Trouble With Angels" or "The Secret Lives of Altar Boys" if you couldn't relate to the Catholic-school experience?

I go could on forever (and almost have) with countless other examples. In the end, I'm asking: Why do you think you're not interested in movies about blacks, Hispanics, or gay people? Is it just because you're none of the above? Have you ever seen such a movie and decide you just couldn't relate? I mean, did you try "The Wedding Banquet" and decide you had no future interest in movies about gay men or Chinese-Americans? (And would your lack of interest in movies about gay men preclude you from watching, say, "Philadelphia"? After all, it stars Tom Hanks, who is extremely popular -- and white, and not really gay.)

By the way, you made me chuckle (in an ironic way, not a nasty way) by mentioning that you wouldn't be interested in watching a gay movie. I love gay and lesbian movies,* naturally -- but I've never not been "interested" in a straight movie. I still choke up when Heathcliff carries Cathy to the window for her last look at the Moors.

It's just puzzling to me: Peel off the skin, and the emotions are the same for you, me, and Sanjit Ray.

* That is, I love gay and lesbian movies if they're good. "Claire of the Moon" sucked as bad as anything I've ever seen. And I hated "Personal Best" with a passion.

P.S. There, I just broke my promise to myself to make posts 700 through 799 all religion-based. I'll have to make up for it well into the 800's, I guess!

[linazelle]

22. We make choices as to how we spend our time...

I'm not saying I don't watch ANY hispanic or gay movies--and I am definitely not intolerant of either group. It's just that, given a limited amount of time, and a choice, I'd more than likely do something else.

There is a type of movie that I'm referring to when I say "hispanic" or "gay" or even "black" movie. Sometimes movies are billed or marketed so that you pretty much know they're stereotyping a certain group. Those are the types of movies I'm not interested in.

I love seeing blacks, gays, hispanics, orientals and any other ethnic groups in movies in general. For the most part, I prefer to a story, not tied to any racial line or gender line. When I think there's stereotyping, or too much emphasis on race or gender, I get turned off. We see too many stereotypes in the media as it is and all in unison with the CON platform which is based on stereotypes of blacks, hispanics and gays.

I'm black. I don't like all black movies and I can understand that many other races wouldn't like them either for the same reasons.

[_Jumper_]

23. OK

Thanks for the clarification. It sounded pretty bad initially.

[Sapphocrat]

27. Fair enough

And I'll certainly agree with you on stereotyping -- you couldn't pay me enough money to watch that "comedy" (whatever it was called) with Cuba Gooding and some other guy pretending to be gay on a cruise ship. (And I'm truly sorry I even gave a chance to that Kevin Kline flick where he can't figure out whether he's gay or straight. Brought back the "limp-wristed" stereotype in no uncertain terms.)

I'm still scratching my head a bit (my take is that a story "tied to any racial line or gender line" is precisely what can make a movie so interesting in the first place), but I'll get over it.

But I'll still urge you to check out both "El Norte" and "Longtime Companion." Films don't get much more "tied" -- or more human -- than these two.

[Catherine Vincent]

45. Just for clarification,

Cuba and his friend wasn't pretending to be gay. They were put on that cruise out of spite by their travel agent without their knowledge. They thought they were going on a cruise to find women. They were disappointed.

[Kanary]

31. Sapphocrat!

Wonderfully worded post! I've thought about this so much and you've covered so much of the ground I've gone over in my head. I liked your term "that thin thread of experience". Pinpoints it exactly. Basically, you're/we're talking *compassion*.

Here's where my thought goes off a bit further.... maybe there is so much reluctance to even think about any of those issues we find so "foreign" to our own, (even though they're not) because we find it so difficult to even feel our own emotions about our own experience. So, going to those movies, or reading those books, or --heaven forbid-- listening to someone who is hurting makes it likely that we would actually feel some of our *own* pain.

We're so programmed to "tough out" our own problems, and not to actually let ourselves experience how badly it makes us feel. Look at how often "whining" is used, even here. It's just not cool to feel what we're feeling, let alone to express it. I would go so far as to say that probably most people have squashed their feelings so much that they don't even know what they *are* feeling anymore. Given that, it would make sense that they wouldn't want to have it right in their face.... too much risk of having their own feelings surface, and not knowing what to do with 'em.

In a perverse sort of way, those of us who have been discriminated against enough that we *must* feel it are fortunate. At least we still have our souls.

Kanary

[foreigncorrespondent]

40. Normally I would avoid...

...trying to respond to your post Sappho, but only because we are partners. But I just had to reply to this one.

How about Australian movies? Aussie culture is mind-blowingly "American" -- but Aussies do sound different from Americans. If an Aussie movie (think "Muriel's Wedding," "Mad Max," or "Crocodile Dundee," to jog your memory) might interest you, would you no longer be interested in Australian movies if that category included films in which the protagonists were Aboriginal? Now there's a culture extremely different from your own...

Perhaps the best movie for anyone into foreign culture movies is Rabbit Proof Fence. It is an Aboriginal/Australian movie which records the history of the lost children. For those who know nothing about the lost children I strongly suggest you research it.

Or what about a movie about a family of Kiwis who look, live, and have the same problems as countless American families -- but whose lives are bound closely to Maori warrior culture?

And the name of this movie is Once Were Warriors. The second installment which kind of answers all the unanswered questions left over from the first is What Becomes of the Broken Hearted. I own both these movies and have never once regretted spending the money to get them.

I don't consider myself a true foreign movie fan, but I do watch foreign movies a lot more than most people I know. (My sister had to go out and get World Movies Channel on her cable just to satisfy her husbands and my need for decent foreign films.)

I will sit up until the wee hours of the morning watching a decent foreign flick. And don't forget to me,all AMERICAN movies are foreign. (Maybe I will give my opinion on the American movie market one day.)

[Karenina]

17. Hi Linazelle!

Please permit me to make one important point to you as YOUR grasp of it is what will determine our collective future. These are not "special interests." They are YOUR INTERESTS. As a former U.S. statesman put it (and I'm paraphrasing) "You cannot claim for yourself benefits you would deny to another."

I would sincerely encourage you to take interest in those who are not like you. It is REALLY FUN!!! The upside is, new food, music, art, languages, knowledge, ways of relating, stories, dances... The downside is... hmmm... let me think about it and get back to you.

[Sapphocrat]

18. Thanks, Karenina...

The phrase "special interests" caught my eye too, but I forgot to say anything about it -- which may be for the best: That phrase is quite a hot button for me, as it smacks of "special rights" (as in "those queers want special rights!").

Glad you mentioned it.

[_Jumper_]

21. Why would you not watch a movie with predominantly Hispanic people?

Why must everyone be white for you to watch a movie? Why not watch movies for entertainment? You cannot be entertained watching people with brown or black skin?

[noiretextatique]

28. actually i appreciate differences

i like 'ethnic movies,' e.g., "my big fat greek wedding," and "fire." i also liked "bridgette jones' diary" and "soul food" and "bound" and "tales from the city" and a documentary i saw about second generation mexican-americans....and another one about immigrant children in ny being shipped off to the midwest in the 20's. i'm not one for xplotation flicks featuring any particular race or culture or sub-culture. i guess i am weird...sometimes i even like watching golf tournaments and car races :shrug:

[Nikia]

30. I've always been intersted in diversity

I am suprised that some people are opposed to learning about other cultures, listening to different music, eating ethnic food, and watching movies with characters of different groups. It is just anti intuitive to me. We're all human. Why wouldn't you want to see others point of view and experiences? You can even relate them to your own.
I do think that all oppressed peoples need to unite and fight the common enemy of oppression and discrimination. There are issues unique to different groups though that also need to be dealt with. I think that different groups need to support the struggles of each other too. Even the heterosexual, middle/upper class male can have a role in this. It is simply the right thing to do.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

41. One of the things that made me crazy

when I was teaching college was the refusal of many students to expose themselves to other cultures, even when the school made it easy for them.

For example, once a year, the foreign students took over the dining hall and cooked foods from their native countries. Since something like 20 countries were represented, many faculty and staff ate in the student dining hall that evening. For once, the dining hall was serving edible, interesting food instead of steamtable glop.

But the dining hall was never overcrowded that evening, because a noticeable percentage of students headed for McDonald's. It wasn't because of previous bad experiences with the particular cuisines, either. Where in rural Oregon would one get Malaysian, Guatemalan, or Kenyan food?

Students also avoided foreign movies, opportunities to study abroad at very little extra cost (only $1000 over normal costs and they could use their financial aid), and even foreign students. I occasionally had foreign students in class, and the other students didn't talk to them, for the most part. I finally resorted to assigning conversation partners at random so that the one Korean or Costa Rican student wasn't the last one chosen.

It was as if the middle American students from small towns and suburbs in the Pacific Northwest were trying to stay ignorant on purpose.

[noiretextatique]

51. "trying to stay ignorant on purpose"

it certainly does seem that way, doesn't it? seems to me this applies to A LOT of americans.

[Walt Starr]

7. See, this is exactly why the reparations argument is wrong

Nobody should be seeking reparations for slavery. Slavery was too long ago.

What the Reparations movement should concentrate on is reparations for segregation. There is hardly an American of African descent today who would not have standing in such a case. The only ones who would not would be those who immigrated during the current generation.

So to hell with reparations for slavery, I say go after reparations for segregation! African Americans would have an argument that NOBODY could deny!

I could be wrong, though. I'm mostly of European descent.

[Isome]

12. *tsk tsk*

The reparations movement does seek compensation for the Jim Crow (segration) era.

I am puzzled by the objection that it was too long ago since laws were passed by white people to ensure the formerly enslaved Africans, and their progeny, were not able to access the political system, let alone wield political clout. That essentially prohibited any reparations demands for practically 100 years after the end of the civil war.

[noiretextatique]

14. reparations were never paid

to african slaves, and will never be paid to their descendants...because of exactly what you mention. and...the reason why the reparations issue gets an attention now is because black people have gained some political clout. and the reason reparations will never be paid: just follow the circle back to the inevitable beginning/conslusion.

[Walt Starr]

44. I can tell you precisely why the "too long ago" argument is valid

White people cannot relate to it, that's why. They didn't see it, they haven't watched films of the actual events. They are seperated from it by a century and a half. Most of the ancestors of most white people weren't even on this continent when slavery was a part of the national fabric, so most white people feel they are being held accountable for something that neither they nor any member of their family was involved with.

The policy of official apartheid in this country is well documented and nearly every white person in America can relate to it. It was going on not that many years ago and continues today in an undercurrent of events.

If you frame the argument in terms of Jim Crow and stress that point, using the slavery argument only as an underlying theme, you'll actually get somewhere. No white person in America can honestly disagree that the national policy of apartheid was wrong and that those who suffered under it are due compensation.

Once reparations for Jim Crow have been achieved, you will then have a legal basis for the argument that those who suffered under the double standard had no ability to gain reparations for the underlying root cause of the entire thing. After you have reparations for Jim Crow, you will have formed the foundation for recieving reparations for slavery, and not a moment sooner.

In my eyes, the reparations movement is doing things backwards. Until you have a foundation of reparations for the most recent treatement, you will not have a sound argument for reparations for the treatment of 150 years ago.

Edited to add: In the most basic of legal terms, nobody in this nation has legal standing to claim reparations for slavery. If you win reparations for Jim Crow, then every person winning such reparations would have standing for reparations for slavery due to the precedent set so long as the underlying argument of slavery as a root cause for Jim Crow is made during the civil proceedings leading to reparations for Jim Crow.

The legal system may seem backwards, but you need the precedent of reparations for the more recent events before reparations for older events can even come under consideration. It is the only way that anybody can have legal standing.

[Isome]

52. Ahhh, but if that were the way it was...

This particular discussion could change the course of this thread, so I will limit my response to address just a few points from your post.

First there is the implication that individuals are liable (or should feel liable) for reparations, when in fact it is the government that is liable. A person feeling responsible, or their family's presence in the country, isn't germane. Moreover, a government's liability is not limited to the lifespan of humans; as long as it is in existence it is liable. That is evidenced by the reparations paid to Japanese-Americans. I didn't benefit, and my parents didn't approve of the order to hold the families in internment camps. Yet, our tax dollars went to pay reparations because the government was/is liable. Our feeling responsible, or empathetic, doesn't have relevance to the legal question.

"As the government is an entity that survives generations, its debts and obligations survive the lifespan of any particular individuals. . . . Governments make restitution to victims as a group or class."

You contend no one has legal standing to claim reparations, I disagree. The legal standing is plain; the probability of the claim being successful in court is not. Finally, after hundreds of years, there is an absolute necessity in asserting that legal claim.

[noiretextatique]

54. let me state the case in even more clear terms

it matters not one iota if reparations claims are based on slavery or on jim crow. there will still be opposition to the claim, as there as always been...it's the reason why reparations were never paid, and it's the reason why reparations will never be paid. simply put...slaveoweners didn't feel the need to pay reparations, nor did those who enacted and enforced jim crow laws, nor will the current generation, or the next. the bottom line...slavery and jim crow (in the minds of many) were perfectly justified per the prevailing thinking of the time...and this time...and that will most likely be the case in my lifetime. those responsible didn't feel responsible, and neither do their progeny...including those who, like trent lott, are still longing for a certain "way of life." but...perhaps i am just feel really cynical tonight.

[starroute]

8. Racism has gone underground and become invisible

I had an incredibly frustrating argument with my younger son a few years ago, when he was a senior in high school. He kept insisting that racism no longer existed in America and that I was just an old fogey to think it did. I told him that it might seem that way if you were white, but that black folks knew better.

It was frustrating because he wasn't arguing from a conservative position, but from a liberal position. He knew that he wasn't a racist, his friends weren't racists, and he hadn't been taught racism in school -- and he thought I was just refusing to recognize that things had changed. How can a parent tell a child, "No matter what you may think, things are no different now than they were forty years ago"?

I'll have to ask him when he's home from college for Christmas whether he still thinks there is no racism in this country. Not that he's likely to have observed any at his college, which is painfully PC, but he may have at least have heard stories from his friends.

[Skittles]

9. I'm white and I see racism all the time

everytime I see Jessica Lynch or Elizabeth Smart, or Laci Peterson's picture, I'm reminded that such attention would NEVER be paid to black women.

[Bluerthanblue]

19. as the case of Shoshandra

Johnsons experience clearly demonstrates-

://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/special_packages/5min/7213679.
As the white mother of a black son living in rural New England, i can tell you that racisim is still very much alive and sadly VERY well-

Those who refuse to admit this REALITY are as guilty as those who act out thier racist views- Silence and denial are no bodys allies-

[Karenina]

35. There's a saying...

Silence is complicity.

Americans LOVE to bash the Germans about their history in this regard, but do allow me to say LOUDLY: THE GERMANS HAVE DEALT WITH THEIR SHIT AND CONTINUE TO DO SO. The Amis NEVER have.

This was brought home to me last year when I had to X-out my closest X-pat friends. The flaming vortex was race and "sex" (Hey Solomon, are you lurking?) Nothing of "scandal" proportions occurred, but it sure pissed off miss blondie that a visiting brother seemed to prefer my company. Couldn't possibly be due to shared interests, chalk it up to a whorish Nigratude that NO ONE PRESENT witnessed but all felt the need to protect the LIE of the perception. These were people in whose lives I'd been a constant presence for 7 years.

The mother of my darling godson, (who clearly recognized and responded to my voice when I first held him in my arms,) with whom I'd discussed over the years the many very questionable comments miss blondie had made to me, reacted to my statement that her perceptions were certifiably "stealth racist" by saying "SHE'S my friend and I have to protect her." I calmly asked her if that meant that somehow I'd become the "enemy." She stood silent as the others mobbed me.

Silence is complicity. It happened here and stands as a lesson. It's happening again as we have not collectively learned it.

[BevHarris]

37. Shoshanna and Lori Piestawa -- blink, forgotten.

Black and Native American.

[Skittles]

39. yes

as a blonde, blue-eyed female veteran, I can honestly say I would have been painfully aware of the inequity and I would have told the book and movie people to go to hell.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

42. I see it, too, Skittles, and hear it as well

Anyone who can't see it just isn't looking.

[DUreader]

11. Where is the white thread?

[noiretextatique]

13. it's in the longe. eom.

[DUreader]

15. found it, link here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=414976&mesg_id=414976

[DrWeird]

25. As a self-admitted reverse oreo...

I'm in a position suited more than most to have commented in both of those threads.

As a white man I am angered, frustrated, and continually surprised at just how many self-named progressives can be so incredibly ignorant as to just how much racism permeates this society like a badly infected in-grown toe nail. It's as clear as day, and the only way I can explain it is racism, that subtle racism that didn't vanish with the civil rights movement, just went underground. And I can say that because I used to be one of those white people who was completley blind to racism. And that's why I'm almost always the most vicious to attack racism when I smell it out. I believe that being white and ignorant is no excuse for being a racist.

Having recently married into an african-american family, I'm quite thankful for the new perspective I have on society. I just recently learned that my wife's aunt was one of the first black women to attend Ole Miss, just the year after James Meredith got in. My heart swelled with pride when I learned that, to know that I had some miniscule link to such a noble struggle. The fact that she was forced to drop out due to threats from racists came as no real surprise to me, for at this point I've certainly learned that the big gains in the sixties didn't translate to equality.

Most white people are quite disconnected from the crime and violence of the inner-city. My eight-year-old nephew, whom I help raise as if he were my own son, had his father murdered when he was only a few months old. The case was dismissed by the corrupt Tacoma P.D. as being gang-related; it wasn't, it was just a black victim. The murderer got seven years, he's out now. I'm convinced he'd be in for life if my brother-in-law had been white. Disproportionate penalties based on the race of the victim is just one example of how racism is ignored. Why more white people don't get upset over something so obviously horrible is beyond me.

Sorry for blathering on and on. Had to get it off my chest.

[Lars39]

32. I think threads like this are so important to help

educate about racism. So many black people experience things that aren't even on a white person's radar. Once a person's eyes are opened to it, he can't ever go back to being ignorant. I'm white, and the written personal experiences of black people help me understand the nuances and subtleties of racism, hopefully so that I can help combat it.

[Karenina]

43. Thanks Lars39

for paying attention and NOT accusing us of being "paranoid" or "exaggerating." I, as far as possible having intergrated the school at 7, have seen the world through "your" eyes. My fondest hope is that you are willing to see it through mine.

[Lars39]

50. Willing to see, but I'm not sure the teaching will ever end, or should.

Racism seems to be like quicksilver, everchanging, so the lessons never end. Being white, I'm not sure I'll ever totally recognize all the racism that black people will encounter, because no one is 100% empathetic/omniscient(not sure if these words cover what I'm trying to say). Perserverence even in the face of innocent ignorance has got to be frustrating as hell, and innocent ignorance seems to be the least of the problem(or is it?) Paranoid/exaggerating? Oh, no; I'd never say that. I've observed some pretty cruddy incidents to ever disbelieve how bad it can get. Makes you wonder about the future of humanity.
Exploring race feels like a minefield; I'm afraid I'll show my ignorance and be forever branded, when with just a little direction/nudge my outlook can be forever changed. :)

[1songbird]

33. You are a very good writer.

Quite impressive!

[G_j]

34. Ironic also

that the coming chapter seems to be "we ALL get screwed" (if we aren't members of that little country club on the hill). I'm not sure if there's even enough time left to 'grow up' and face reality, the world is in such an emergency. Great post, I wish we as humans had it more together.
We're in trouble. :-(

[carolinayellowdog]

46. White privilege is invisible only to those

who are willfully blind to it. Although I have lived a half century as a white man, I was never entirely oblivious to white privilege-- due to interracial marriage in the family, with black stepsiblings.

But lately I have learned through genealogical research that two 18th century ancestors were classified as mulatto in the colonial era but promoted to white after the Revolution. And two other ancestral lines appear likely to have experienced the same kind of "passing."

The more I see whiteness as socially constructed and arbitrary, the more grotesque it seems that anyone should have special privileges for being "white." And the more painfully evident it becomes that such is indeed the case!

CYD

[DuctapeFatwa]

47. "promoted to white" I love it! LOL

It reminds me of a person I know who complains that he has no life - as the lightest skinned member (and with colored eyes and hair, too!) of his multi-continental party mix family, he is constantly prevailed on to do all errands involving officialdom or bureacracy, simply because it is more efficient than making anyone else in the family suffer all the various slings and arrows of the terrific race relations progress the US has made in recent decades.

Fine, he says, but it doesn't save HIS time! ;)

[BevHarris]

55. "Promoted to white" -- My ex, who is Japanese, went to South Africa

This was during aparteid. I asked him which bathroom he used. Well, you see, he is a somewhat high profile person, and it turns out that they gave him a special ID card: "honorary European."

I kid you not. Here's the difference between my ex and my current: The ex perceived this card to be an honor.

Bev

[maddezmom]

53. we see racism from both spectrums

My husband and I have 2 children through adoption. One is full caucasion and the other is bi-racial. (Please excuse me if I'm not using PC terms)

We are currently living overseas so to give an example, yesterday we went to a neighbors farm with our children. We had a wonderful day, my husband and kids both rode horses for the first time. Had a great lunch...

Then our hosts and their friends started talking about how in the 70's the government changed and all the rich folks had to give back their land to the people. My husband and I just looked at each other. And both thought the same thing, "Yeah, the ones that it belonged to in the first place." But here is the kicker, they all were talking about how it was just like our civil war. Direct quote from the host..."nothing is worse than putting power in the pueblo, you know just like the blacks(although the word used was different).

See the strange thing is no one here considers our son bi-racial...he is a gringo or American.

[noiretextatique]

56. was just talking to a friend about bi and mutli racial folk

telling her: it's nothing new...just the terms and the politics are different. my cousins tell me about the family get-togthers at their house in fort worth, texas in the 50's...all the neighbohood kids would tell them: "you have WHITE PEOPLE in your house" :scared: in hushed and frightened tones. the very same folks who were siccing dogs and fire hoses on folks...the ones who spat on little children going to school...the ones who your mommma warned you about...the ones who 'disappeared' you in the woods. my cousins didn't know these "white people" their friends were talking about were our family members, so they would go into the house and check in the closets and under the beds for these folks...the ones who bombed churches and hung 14 year-old black boys. they never found those scary "white people," and eventually, as they grew older, they realized their friends were talking about our grandmother, and our uncles and aunts. this is how terrorized those little children were...anyone who looked remotely "white" was someone to fear. i never knew i was "american" until i went to europe...seriously. i never "felt" american...until i was not in america.

[kaitykaity]

57. Locking.

"In accordance with the Uniform Code of Shape-Shifting Posting Rules, Volume 23, Chapter 87.5"

The above sentence can be viewed as a slap at DU policy and the Administrators of this site. In the future, any comments you may
have regarding these issues should be posted in the Ask the
Administrators forum.

Thanks,


kaitykaity
DU Moderator