Question For Those Who Do NOT Support Howard Dean

[THUNDER HANDS]

It's pretty obvious that the Democratic Party, in the next few months, is going to be split into two camps.

The pro-Dean camp and the anti-Dean camp.

Now, since Dean supporters obviously want him to get the nomination, I'm curious as to whom the other group would likely throw its support behind.

Kerry?
Clark?
Edwards?
Gephardt?

Now, this isn't a question of "Who other than Dean" would you like to see get the nomination. This is, "Who would you like to see actively oppose Dean" and be the guy who has to be his main competition to get the nomination.

Who do you think would be the best candidate to balance off of Howard Dean and set a clear parallel that Democrats could choose from.

Because, obviously not every Democrat supports Dean. So they should have someone they could feel comfortable with.

Who's yours?

[billbuckhead]

1. After his pandering to the ConFlag, I'm anybody but Dean.

Any of the four are acceptable to me. In order, I like Clark, Kerry, Edwards and then Gep.

[THUNDER HANDS]

3. does that mean

You won't be voting for him if he gets the nomination?

[w4rma]

16. Before the brouhaha about the rebel flag, billbuckhead said

billbuckhead
6. Coming from a law enforcement family, we won't vote for Dean over this....
issue. Stopping terrorism begins at home. America's promiscuous gun laws force our citizens to live in fear of the highest murder rate of advanced nations. We all live under the gunsights of the right wing gun lobby and their Kulturwar fellow travelers.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=151327&mesg_id=151365

…
Let's keep and enforce the federal gun laws we have, close the gun show loophole using Insta-check, and then let the states decide for themselves what if any gun control laws they want.
…
http://www.issues2000.org/2004/Howard_Dean_Gun_Control.htm

[Stuckinthebush]

17. Bought into that spin, eh?

Come on...Dean has been saying that for a while now. The down and out candidates saw an openning and pounced! Woo-Hoo!

Oh, my! Dean wants to represent all Americans! Even the poor Southern man who drives a pick up and will argue till the death that the flag is a symbol of heritage not hate.

Well, this white Southern man is sick of hearing about "Dean's gaffe". Guess what? There are a lot of poor and middle class white men down here driving pick up trucks with Confederate flags on them who need the Democratic party.

So if Dean does get the nomination (which is likely at this point), you won't vote for him because he understands that the Democratic Party should try to bring every one to the table?

Great. Thanks for nothing.

[Padraig18]

30. Oh, come on, Bill.

You were 'anyboby but Dean' long before the CF flap. :eyes:

[billbuckhead]

35. I've been anybody but Dean since his FIRST ConFlag flap in South Carolina.

The spinDoctor has been yacking about states rights for guns for quite awhile and started throwing the Con Flag in as a states rights bonus almost a year ago. Interestingly the latest controversay wasn't about healthcare, but about guns. Dean was starting to sound like George Wallace on the stump till after all these months that someone finally got the press to pay attention to what Dean was actually saying.

[Kolesar]

50. "Dean was starting to sound like George Wallace " Please elaborate

Sorry, I just don't get that.
And further, did Dean actually say "states rights"?

[billbuckhead]

57. "I STILL want to be the candidate of the white guy in a pickup truck

with a Confederate flag bumpersticker."

[sandnsea]

41. After last night, I'm ABD

I haven't liked him for the longest time, but would have voted for him. After last night, if he's the nominee, I'll find a new party.

A party that can be so easily swayed that they would support a pro-NRA guy who suggests abandoning traditional values in order to court Confederate Flag wavers is not a party I can be part of. Especially when he is such a loon, as I saw last night.

[Lorien]

48. I hope you are real comfy

with the idea of four more years of Bush* in office then. Personally, I'll vote for the Dem nominee, my "concious" won't permit me to allow four more years of war, environmental destruction, the erosion of our civil rights, declining access to health care, increasing corporate power, etc. If Dean turns out to be another NIXON, he's STILL nowhere near as bad as Bush! I don't demand perfection and purity in my candidate-just give me a significant improvment on what's in office now, and we'll work on perfecting what we've got from there.

[sandnsea]

49. He'd be no better

He's just as big of an idiot as Bush. There is absolutley nothing to make me conclude that he'd be any more able to make constructive decisions than Bush. Especially with a Republican controlled Congress. International relations? I shudder to think. Domestic policies? I believe him when he says he supported the Domenici Medicare plan. I believe him when he says budget cuts and balancing the budget are more important than health care. I don't want him. And if he's going to abandon the social progress of the Democratic Party in the process, there's nothing left for me to support. Nothing.

[Hep]

51. Come off it

You've ben anyone but Dean for a lot longer than that. You think we're blind? Christ.

[ulysses]

59. yes, you were such a rabid Dean supporter before...

:eyes:

[mndemocrat_29]

2. I am not a big supporter of Dean

However, if he is the nominee, I will ardently support him and campaign for him in order to beat Bush.

However, my choices for the nomination would be:

1. Kerry
2. Clark
3. Edwards

[Bombtrack]

4. The right has repeatedly shown they want Gephardt to be the "other"

In various editorials etc

because they know those would be the 2 weakest general election candidates of all the serious candidates

[rbnyc]

12. I know this is a little nit-picky...

...but I think ALL the candidates are serious.

[wtmusic]

22. The right also "knew" that Dean had no chance of getting the nomination

A lot of know-it-alls around here

[Ediacara]

24. and the left wanted Bush to be the candidate

because he was by far the weakest of the serious Republican candidates in 2000. We all saw ho well that turned out.

I hear this all the time from DUers, "Dean would have no chance, he's too weak," but when I press for WHY, the answer is either silence or something akin to, "if you're that dumb to not figure it out, I'm not going to waste my breathe telling you."

So anyone wanna bother answering this question? Seriously.

[vdeputy]

29. Dean too weak

in the foreign policy area. I just don't believe most Americans will vote for someone who has absolutely no experience in foreign policy at this time in our history. I think it is Dean's huge weakness, one he can't possibly get around when it comes times to vote.

[Eloriel]

39. And Dean makes a damn good case that he's far better

on Foreign Policy than Bush.

Really, it would take NOTHING at all -- any one of us here could be better than Bush on FP in an instant.

But Dean makes a very strong case.

Eloriel

[Mass_Liberal]

52. Im not going to use the

"neither did Bush" thing because Bush's foreign policy is pathetic (to say the least), but Clinton had little foreign policy experience. He wasn't bad at all.

[Bombtrack]

31. No they didn't

Maybe there were a couple of democrats who did, but certainly nothing compared to there glee and support at every level of the GOP at Dean's primary prospects

[nonconformist]

45. Actually, I recall that the left wanted McCain

There was a word of mouth movement with the Democrats in Michigan (where I lived at the time) to vote McCain in the primary, and we did and McCain won. Much to Bush's chagrin I might add, which was kinda sweet.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

5. I am feeling a Pro-Dean bias here at DU.

I am getting this feeling from that the Pro-Dean posters are more than proactive here at DU. I was taken aback when the Dean campaign thinks that they have the nomination all wrapped up. You know, there are another eight candidates running too! I am NOT overly impressed with the Dean campaign. Also I feel that Clark is much more progressive. TO THE "DEANIES": the feelings you have about Dean are the same feelings that we "Clarkites" have about the General.

My top five choices are as follows:
Clark, Kerry, Kucinich, Braun, Edwards

Clark is my V-E-R-Y FIRST CHOICE!!!

CLARK 04' :dem:


Edit: I WILL FULLY SUPPORT whoever the nomminee is! All nine of them are better than the current occupant of the WH!

[slinkerwink]

10. it's more of a pro-clark bias here on DU

I think that the Clark supporters are more numerous than the Dean supporters are, based on the number of anti-Dean threads on here.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

11. It is not just we Clark supporters that oppose Dean.

There are others too that support other candidates.

[THUNDER HANDS]

14. i don't know about that

They're both two huge groups here. But the Clark people really came out of the woodwork after he announced. A lot of Dean supporters have been here for a while and were pumping him up long before he became a fashionable candidate.

[FrenchieCat]

44. Well Yea???

Our candidate just got into the race....your candidate has been running for over a year.....Duh!!!!

I was busy writing letters to Clark asking him to run...

Prior to that, too busy marching in peace marches in Europe and SF...

Sorry I couldn't tear myself away earlier!

[lastliberalintexas]

56. You assume

that Magic Rat is a Dean supporter. Last I saw, I think he said he still supported Kerry? (he'll correct me if I'm wrong)

Not everyone who defends Dean is a supporter. I've defended a number of the candidates from unwarranted atacks myself, and I am a solid Dean supporter.

[Shakespeare]

26. That's perception, not reality...

Skinner is somewhere now banging his head against his desk in frustration. ;-)

I think any "anti" bias for any candidate is spread out pretty evenly (with the exception of Lieberman). All sides give as good as they get, for the most part.

[quinnox]

6. Edwards

Here is the reasoning. Kerry and Clark are both running on similar concepts, being war heros and the military angle. And Kerry is basically going after the same segment that Dean is, they are both from the same region. Gephardt has the same repeal the tax and use for health care plan that Dean does, so there isn't enough contrast there.

I think Edwards presents the clearest alternative to Dean, he doesn't want to repeal all the taxes, and has the best message to use in a general election vs Bush. He also is from the south, another clear contrast from Dean, and seems to me to be much more charismatic and appealing to a common voter.

In any case, Clark and Edwards are both competing against each other for this position, the moderate Democrat, which is why there are stories about friction between the two campaigns. I could live with Clark winning out over Edwards, but I prefer Edwards.

[Eric J in MN]

8. John Edwards has optimism and charisma

John Edwards has optimism and charisma, and doesn't advocate repealing popular tax cuts.

http://www.johnedwards2004.com/home.asp

I hope Edwards is in the top 2, and that if he dosn't win the Presidential nomination, he gets the Vice Presidential nomination.

[Mass_Liberal]

53. why do we have to keep having southerners?

Nothing against southern democrats, there have been very good ones in the past, but I think it is dumb to make being from the south a prerequisite for being the nominee. WE DONT NEED TO WIN THE SOUTH! Which is not to say we shouldn't try, i.e kennedy's sucess in the south, but Al Gore only needed New Hampshire, and he lost all of the south/southeast.

aherm... sorry my rant is done


Peace

[IndianaGreen]

7. If Dean falters, I will switch to Wesley Clark or Dennis Kucinich

No way in Hell am I going to support the four war enablers: Kerry, Gephardt, Edwards, Lieberman.

We should never forget those that betrayed us:

President, House Leadership Agree on Iraq Resolution



President George W. Bush along with bipartisan leaders from the House and Senate announced the Joint Resolution to authorize the use of the United States Armed Forces against Iraq. "The statement of support from the Congress will show to friend and enemy alike the resolve of the United States," President Bush said during the announcement in the Rose Garden, Wednesday, October 2, 2002. White House photo by Paul Morse.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021002-7.html

[rbnyc]

9. No one.

I'm a Kucinich supporter, but I'm not anti-Dean. In fact I'm doing outreach for Kucinich in a community that largely supports Dean, and I count on the things we have in common when I advocte for Kucinich.

I like to see the candidates working together to actively oppose the Bush Administration. I like to see a party of diverse anti-republicans. I'm worried about people who get to entrentched in opposing other democrats during primary season. I know it's been said a million times, but we obviously don't get it. After the primaries, I hope I'll still be working for Kucinich. But if not, I'm going to be working with the Dean people, or the Edwards people, or the Clark people, or the Kerry people, etc. etc. I'm not interested in destroying my relationships with other democrats while I promote my candidate.

[kiahzero]

13. Didn't vote - False duality

I don't think Dean is going to be a polarizing figure that will split the Democratic party between pro-Dean and anti-Dean.

[THUNDER HANDS]

15. sure he will

If he's the frontrunner, that means by default, the party will be split into two camps.

The "I support this guy and want him to be the nominee" camp.

and the "I'm afraid of this guy and want someone else" camp.

[kiahzero]

18. Well, first of all

He's not the frontrunner. According to almost all the polls coming out, there are two or three people so close as to be within the margin of error (statistical dead heat).

If you meant your question to be, "Assuming Dean will pull ahead of the pack, who else would you like to pull ahead to challenge him?", there were better ways to ask it, then invoking the "anti-Dean" language. I now understand the question better, and answer Clark, seeing as he's my candidate to begin with.

That, however, does not mean that I fear Dean; I just like Clark more. The greater of two goods, in my mind.

[THUNDER HANDS]

20. statistics aside

Dean is the frontrunner.

In terms of...

Money
Momentum
Press coverage
Support

And he's leading or 1,2 - in Iowa and New Hampsire.

If that's not a frontrunner, than a frontrunner doesn't exist.

[kiahzero]

21. ...

If that's not a frontrunner, than a frontrunner doesn't exist.

Well, seeing as my argument was that there isn't a frontrunner yet...

While I will grant that he's ahead in terms of money, I really think the reason he's percieved to be a front-runner is because the press is treating him as one. Perception becomes reality, and such.

[FrenchieCat]

19. After seeing the bad

Tim Robbins imitation of "You have the Power" speech....I shook my head and tried to figure what it was all about?????

Don't know, cause the policies are not impressive...

Losta PIE THE SKY....stuff that ain't never going to pass.

So sad!

[slinkerwink]

23. Dean was saying that because people in the stands were shouting

"We have the power!" several times....you couldn't hear that on CSPAN since the audio feed was rather poor. If you don't believe me, ask the Dean supporters who attended that event.

[THUNDER HANDS]

27. I didn't see the event at all on tv

Did Dean look really freaky when he said it?

How was the crowd reaction afterwards and what did the candidates say about it?

[slinkerwink]

38. to me, Dean didn't look freaky, just caught up in what his supporters were

chanting back to him...

[aldian159]

43. I was there, and he looked possesed

I felt like I was at one of those Christian gatherings you see on TV, you know, like the Graham preachings in areans.

[blm]

55. More like Jimmy Swaggart.

Pass the collection plate.

[Jackhammer Jesus]

25. Not supporting Dean = anti-Dean?

The party will not split into two factions because of pro-Dean and anti-Dean sentiment, but because of pro-Dean and pro-(insert to-be-determined frontrunner candidate here) sentiment. People will look to other candidates that appeal to them, not simply vote for someone else because they fear Dean. From the looks of the poll so far, it'll be Clark vs. Dean.

I voted for Clark because I think he'd make a better president, not because of my dislike for Dean - because, in fact, Dean is my second choice.

[Justice]

28. Don't Like Use Of Anti-______

The Bush Adminstration is infamous for labelling the issue so that you are left with a particular image - and the image shapes your perception. I.e. - Leave No Child Behind, Anti-War. I can't stand that.

In this case, the choices are not limited to being pro-Dean or anti-Dean. There are other choices. Like 8 other choices. Being pro another candidate does not make one anti-Dean.

I am pro-Clark. I have heard Clark speak twice in person, I've spoken to him personally. I like what he says, I like what he stands for. I really like that Wes Clark does not say negative things about other Democratic candidates. His message is hopeful, positive and visionary.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

32. Kucinich

He IS what Dean only APPEARS to be.

[DemBones DemBones]

33. I'm for Kucinich and wonder why he's left out of the choices M.R.

gave in the poll. . .

[Eloriel]

40. Nonsense

There are precious few similarities between the two. NO ONE is confused on that point. Trust me.

Eloriel

[Mz Pip]

34. I'm not anti-Dean

I just like Clark better. I signed up for the Dean Meet Ups and thought he would be my candidate until I saw Clark on MTP in June.
That pretty much turned the tide for me. I've read his stuff, heard his speeches and saw him live in SF. Anyone who thinks he's some kind of PNAC plant has been :smoke: too much.

I'll work for Dean if he is the candidate, which is more than a lot of the Dean supporters will say about Clark.

MzPip
:dem:

[WindRavenX]

36. I'm not anti-Dean either

I'm a strong Kerry supporter as I believe Kerry is more liberal and has a better shot at beating Bush.
I will vote for Dean if Dean wins the nomination.

[bluestateguy]

37. I will support the party nominee without criticism

I will even support Lieberman, but WITH criticism.

Kucinich backers will go to Dean, Kerry's backers to Clark, same with Edwards supporters, Sharpton's to Clark because Clark has been more respectful of him, Gephardt's supporters will probably split off into Dean and Clark.

Dean supoprters better hope it's not a brokered convention between Clark and Dean. The party regulars will give it to Clark if that happens. Clark may not be the establishment's first choice, but given the choice between him and Dean I don't see Dean prevailing in the final primary: the smoke-filled hotel rooms of Boston.

[lastliberalintexas]

58. Not just Dean supporters

A brokered convention likely means our party is split irreparably in the short run, and Shrub wins easily. Dean supporters aren't the only people who should be afraid of that prospect.

[burr]

42. Shouldn't this be a poll on Lieberman?

National polls still show Lieberman on top, and he is leading in many key primary states. In the upcoming primary races Lieberman, Gephardt, and Clark will be the main competitors to Dean..while Kerry's and Edwards' impact in these primaries has been blown entirely out of proportion. :puffpiece:

[frustrated_lefty]

46. I'm a Dean fan,

but think Gephardt has done remarkably well in recent debates. I don't like him, he's a career politician, but he's spoken well.

[gate of the sun]

47. Kucinich

though I don't believe that is how he would run his campaign.....Dean supporters could easily be for Kucinich but somehow there convinced Dean is the way to go.....best to luck to all of us in the future we are going to need it.

[mmonk]

54. I support Clark, not

specifically not supporting someone else whether it be Dean or another candidate. So therefore I'm not interested in who is "opposing Dean" for the sake of opposing him.