The Patriot Act and My Bank

[elfwitch]

I had to call my bank today to deal with an unauthorized charge. After the young lady asked me the standard identification questions (SSN and DOB) she asked me something that just about put me through the roof.

She said, "In accordance with the Patriot Act I am required to ask you if you are a United States citizen?"

I answered the question. And then I realized what she said. I asked her to repeat the reason for the question. And, in fact, it was "The Patriot Act" that was requiring her to ask.

Okay, here is where it got creepy. I told her that the question kinda ticked me off, but I wasn't mad at her. She told me that I wasn't the first person to be more than a little pissed about the question. AND HERE IT COMES.... WAIT FOR IT....

She didn't know what "The Patriot Act" was. This bothered me on two levels. First, she blindly started asking these questions of people based on a law she didn't even see fit to ask anyone what it was about. Second, even after being bitched out several times because of the question, she STILL DIDN'T bother to find out what it was!!!

So I put this to you all....
First, has anybody else been asked this by their bank?

Second, are you as peeved as I am that someone would just ask a question based on a "law" that they didn't know anything about and didn't bother to ask what it was?

Third, does anybody else find this question pointless? I mean if you weren't a US citizen and the word Patriot Act came before a question, would you answer truthfully?

Fourth, what would the bank do if you said that you weren't a US citizen?

And FINALLY, how can people just cruise through life like this without asking any questions? Don't they know that citizenship and democracy are a process that you must take part in or you risk losing it? Aren't they teaching basic civics classes in school anymore?

[T Roosevelt]

1. Did you educate her?

[elfwitch]

2. Oh, you're damn right I did...

I told her what it was. i told her how quickly it came about. I told her that as bad as it is, they are trying to make it worse. I told her to use 5 minutes of Internet time and look the damn thing up.

After I told her about it, she understood why people got so pissed when she asked the question.

[fujiyama]

7. Good for you

for educating someone. It's important for people to know how far their civil liberties have eroded.

[Jack Rabbit]

3. It's a little silly

I work for a bank and just had do to some programming to bring us into compliance. They think they're going to catch terrorists laudering money this way. More likely, they'll catch someone putting the current year down in his date of birth.

Don't worry. The bank has no way to determine what you're reading or what your political affiliations are. If I thought that were the intent, I would have posted the code here.

[mainer]

4. this is scary!!!

I didn't know you had to be a U.S. citizen to have a bank account in the U.S. For god's sake, it's your money, you deposited it, so what is this? You're not allowed to keep your own money in a bank if you're not a citizen? What if you've got a green card? And what if you weren't a citizen? Would the bank confiscate your funds?

[Ouabache]

8. I think the intent is to flag non-citizen accounts and then watch for cash

transfers that exceed certain amounts and involve foreign banks. Since that 'may' have flagged accounts of guys like the 19 ??

You will also be asked if you are citizen and have to supply a shitload of photo id if you take out a loan to buy a car now !! Part of the Patriot Act and they tell you. Salesman said to me "There are certain people we can't sell cars to now."

Go figure. But what is bothersome is that in the process they seem to be collectiong MORE information on all of us, even if we are citizens. Is the government reviewing what we all purchase now ?

[foreigncorrespondent]

5. Maybe you should contact your bank manager...

...and ask what the bank has to do if a person said they weren't a United States citizen.

This bothers me as much as it does you. I find it disgusting that they are even required to be asking this. But as a foreigner who has a partner living in the U.S. I am really bothered.

Sapphocrat and I were able to open a joint banking account here in Australia on her first trip to Oz, without her being a citizen of Australia, or even a permanent resident. Does this mean we won't be able to open a joint account in the U.S. unless I am a citizen? Or I won't even be able to open a bank account period unless I become a citizen?

Please don't get me wrong, I have no problems with becoming an American citizen (it is my dream to become one), but isn't this going overboard?

And that bank worker really should know and understand what the PATRIOT Act is, for crying out loud I am an Australian, living in Australia and I know all about it.

And one has to wonder how many other people really don't know, or understand what it (the patriot act) is all about. Should the Democrats begin releasing pamphlets to help people understand what it is all about?

[liberalhistorian]

6. This is one of the five hundred

gazillion reasons why I hate the PATRIOT Act and TIA and CAPPS (airline screening program which basically finds out everything about you down to your great-great grandmother's favorite breakfast cereal just to get on a fucking plane), and all of the other fascist police state Orwellian bullshit that's been allowed to go through because of 9/11.

No bank/credit union/financial institution/insurance company is EVER getting any information out of me except for address and phone number, PERIOD. It's none of their fucking business, and if they don't like it, they can not only kiss my sweet Irish/English/Scottish/French/German ass but I'll take my fucking money elsewhere and if I have to put in under my mattress, then so be it.

[Catherine Vincent]

14. "...kiss my sweet Irish/English/Scottish/French/German ass ..."

Cute! :)

[wtmusic]

17. LOL that's the Irish part of it!

;-)

[liberalhistorian]

19. LOL!

Guess I can indeed be a bit of a smart-ass once in awhile! And yes, I'm sure the Irish part of it has a lot to do with it.

[pansypoo53219]

20. certainly not the german

german/french/russian/norweigan/english/native american/irish but here.
too much german.

[Jazzgirl]

9. I'm curious about something.

They ask you for your SSN....do non-US citizens have SSN's? I mean, if they don't then its kind of a stupid question if only American citizens have 'em. Someone please educate me??!!??

Jazzgirl :dunce:

[ScreamingMeemie]

10. Yes...and I guess I would say, don't shoot the messenger though

My mother works for a bank and is just as frustrated with these laws and regulations. They really have to do this. We all know that this is wrong, as does my mother...but yet, those are the rules, and most of us are working at changing them by doing are darndest to vote Bushco. out. Just like my mother. (although she is a bit RW on some things, this is not one of them) Basically, she needs the job, and isn't the one making the rules...the idiot in charge is.

As an aside, banks before the Patriot Act could fill out a form on any customer they chose that they suspected of possible fraudulent activity. They've been doing it for years.

I feel your pain, but go easy on an employee just looking to keep her job. ;)

[elfwitch]

21. I was very nice to her...

I told her that I was mad, but not at her.
She said many people had said mean things to her.
I told her I understood that it was the job and not her.
I was most distrubed by the fact that she had no idea what the Patriot Act was. She just started doing what she was told without even asking what or why it was for.

And then....
After she had been bitched out several times for asking the question, she still didn't dig in to what she was being yelled at for. It is the incredible lack of desire to know what is going on that really bugged me out.

[wtmusic]

11. She's lying

Citizenship is not required for a bank account (banks are required to report 'suspicious activity'). Her question was NOT in accordance with USA PATRIOT and out of line.

What bank was it?

[wtmusic]

12. What USA PATRIOT requires of banks:

The Act strengthens federal efforts to attack money laundering, or the flow of assets derived from or intended to facilitate the commission of crimes. To augment the power of existing law, the Act:

-requires businesses involved in cash transactions of more than $10,000 to file Suspicious Activity Reports (SARs) with the Treasury Department

-requires security dealers to file SARs for transactions over $5,000 which they suspect may be derived from illegal activity

-strengthens existing provisions to prevent financial employees from tipping off participants of a suspicious transaction

-authorizes the Secretary of the Treasury, under extraordinary circumstances, to require a particular financial institution to maintain strict records in their dealings with foreign customers and foreign financial institutions

-requires financial institutions to maintain 'due diligence' with regard to identifying the owners of foreign accounts and monitoring potential money laundering activity

-requires financial institutions to respond to Treasury requests for anti-money laundering records within 120 hours and to Justice or Treasury Department summons or subpoenas of records of foreign deposits within 7 days

-adds goods falsely classified, firearms trafficking, computer fraud and abuse, and providing material support to a terrorist organization to the list of predicate crimes for a money laundering prosecution

-increases penalties for counterfeiting

-forbids aliens suspected of money laundering from entering the US

-requires forfeiture of entire amount when more than $10,000 is smuggled into or out of the US, in lieu of a fine

-authorizes confiscation of all property of any individual or organization engaged in terrorism against the US (may in future interpretation run afoul of the Eighth Amendment's excessive fines clause)

-authorizes seizure of domestic bank accounts of foreign banks which are determined to have received money laundering deposits overseas

-establishes a procedure whereby a defendant may be ordered to transfer foreign proceeds of money laundering to the US for confiscation

Source: Congressional Research Service (CRS) summary

[ScreamingMeemie]

15. Basically, because it was over the phone and she couldn't look

at this poster's license, that was how she verified citizenship.

[wtmusic]

16. The PATRIOT Act doesn't require citizenship

Is asking for someone's citizenship even remotely connected to 'due diligence with regard to identifying the owners of foreign accounts'? Shoudn't we take a reading on skin color to handle this pesky chore?

The ACLU should be involved in this.

[ScreamingMeemie]

18. Totally agreed, just feeding what I just asked my mother...

a banking professional...told me. Again, I say don't shoot the messenger, contact the ACLU.

[spanone]

13. I recently rolled over an IRA and had to fill out an extra page that

my broker told me was due to the patriot act.