Separation between Church and State: Are these the kind...

[foreigncorrespondent]

...of nuts we are dealing with?

I found the following letter to the editor this morning (Aussie time) while doing my daily routine of catching up on all the latest LGBT news world wide: (It was the final paragraph that made me almost puke.)


As Americans increasingly accept public opinion for their standard, our country leaves its only basis for stability — the objective (written) standards there were her heritage. The Declaration, Constitution and Bible all served as written standards for behavior that represented right treatment of individuals and nations. If the citizens of America do not force elected representatives to again acknowledge standards higher than themselves, eventually, those representatives’ natural inclination toward sin will cost everyone the freedoms guaranteed at America’s founding.


Full letter can be read here: http://www.reporter-news.com/abil/op_letters_editor/article/0,1874,ABIL_7984_2431698,00.html

I almost died when I saw that. Are these people for real? (Rhetorical question)

I have actually been doing a lot of research lately about the religious right for an article I have been putting together, but this just truly floored me. I mean, I see it when I read stuff by Falwell et al, but this is a regular Jo Blow from Texas.

How can we put a stop to this kind of brainwashing?

[alcuno]

1. They are not "regular," they are part of a cult.

Right-wing religious fanaticism needs to be declared a threat to national security and those participating in it enemy combatants. Let's elect someone who will do that. Actually, I have no idea.

[ellie]

3. Indeed!

Right-wing religious fanaticicm IS a threat to national security. It is the most unAmerican thing I have ever heard. I believe that fervent fundamentalism is a mental illness and should be treated as such: electroshock therapy, lithium, etc. I am not kidding. The things people do in God's name! I am reading "Under the Banner of Heaven," and it will curl your toes.

[Khephra]

2. ummmmm, yeah. They're for real. (yeah, I know it was rhetorical ;-) )

THE DARK MOTIVE BEHIND
THE DEMOCRAT FILIBUSTER

by Falwell

As I write this column, a dramatic debate is taking place in the Senate chamber.


The "Justice for Judges" debate initiated by Republicans began Wednesday evening as a last-ditch effort to compel filibustering Senate Democrats to allow a vote on four of President Bush's judicial nominees.


Democrats have refused to allow a vote on these four well-qualified nominees largely because they embrace a Judeo-Christian perspective in their personal lives. It's important to note that several other Bush nominees face potential filibustering by Democrats in the near future. This type of filibuster has never before taken place in the Senate. (more)

http://www.falwell.com/confiden/index.htm

[foreigncorrespondent]

7. Falwell is an idiot.

He wouldn't be able to give a true understanding of the Bible if God was whispering in his ear. He would still miscontrue God's meaning.

[TreasonousBastard]

4. Did your research include....

"Great Awakening?"

The US has a long history of religious zealotry, often leading to intolerance.

A very long history, and it didn't end with the Salem Witch trials, or the Scopes Monkey Trial.

The US wasn't "founded" so much on Christian principles as Protestant ones. Specifically Calvinism, and it's emphasis on the "saved." There are significant differences between the old Crusades, European witch-hunts, and Inquisitions and our domestic zealotry, but one thing is similar-- our zealots are convinced that only they have the Truth, and the others must be destroyed.

Perhaps after the centuries of bloodshed and the many different beliefs they were exposed to, Europeans have finally decided that it's just not worth the bother to fight over religion. We have yet to learn that lesson.

[foreigncorrespondent]

6. I centered my research more on...

Christian Reconstructionism (Dominion Theology), Center for National Policy, and of course the versus they always quote from the Bible, Genisis 19: 5, Romans 1: 26-27, 1 Corinthians 6: 9, 1 Timothy 1: 9-10, Leviticus 18: 22 and 20: 13.

[liberalhistorian]

5. These people have hijacked

my religion (Christianity) and have almost made me ashamed to say I'm a Christian to non-Christians for fear they'll think I'm one of "them." And many of my Christian friends feel the same way, and we are really, really, royally pissed at the hijacking and stealing of our religion by these morally degenerate, hypocritical, hateful, hate-filled, mean-spirited, judgmental, self-righteous, sanctimonious, holier-than-thou, ignorant, arrogant, fascist, selfish, greedy, hard-hearted, cold-hearted, heartless, materialistic, theocratic fundie nutballs whom Christ wouldn't recognize at all. Actually, he would recognize them, he'd see right through them for who and what they really are. Canada, here I come because I can't fucking take it here anymore.

[Selwynn]

9. Christ did recognize them - he called them hypcocrites and snakes..

I refer of course to the pharisees, the religious leaders of the religious institution of the day.

According to the narratives, Jesus came on to the scene that put him at total odds with the religious establishment - it is essentially why he was killed, for advocating a perosnal piety of indivdual heart and life before God that did not look to the establishment for guidance and dimished the power of the instituion. So they killed him.

The paralells to today are clear, in my opinion.

I do believe that the heart of spiritual life should be about the restoration of right relationships - we are not the full human we can be when we are not at peace with ourselves, truly "related" to ourselves in a healthy and non-destructive way. We are not fully human we can be when we do not exist in healthy nurturing, compasisionate loving relationships with those around us, something which is only possible out of the overflow of a heart governed by compassion and empathy above all else. And I believe we are not the fullest human beings we can be when we do not understand our relationship to the divine as well, and it is through that openness to others, and openness to god that we perfect our own peace and internal joy, and are empowered and equipped to enter into the world in healthy, positive, just and beneficial ways.

I believe when we reject these kinds of relationships, we are less than what we could be, and I believe the world essentially suffers from human beings with "failure to thrive" - corrupted and twisted inwardly into self-serving creatures without empathy and without understanding - alienated from themselves, from those around them and from anything higher than themselves. I believe this is what is destroying the world.

Because I believe that, I do not believe that the further marginalization of religion is the best for society, I actually agree in theory that religion is necessary to democracy, to peace, to justice and to the good human life. I have as much idignation and criticism of the institions of religion today, that like our own government are so often totally corrputed by power mongering and compassionless self-interest. But I believe that a personal spiritual inwardness and an understnading of diving mystery, love, beauty truth and personal interaction are essential to the good life, and the better world. But here's the things that separate me from these wackos:

a) I respect the right of others to disagree, and enjoy hearing other points of view - I know most of you don't agree with this point of view and I'm fine with it. If you're not happy and at peace in your life, maybe its worth considering these thigns. If you are, great! Because that's really all I would want for you.
b) I know clearly that an inward religious piety is not something you can force on others - it cannot be legislated, mandated or dictated and to try and do so is to ultimately betray the very beauty of the spiritual
c) I belief that religious understanding is related to human fullness cannot be mistaken with moralism - its not about keeping a score care of what you "do" and "don't do." It's about healthy relationships and a noble desires steming from a good heart. It's not about performance nad dogman. It's about relationship and desire.
d) The specifics of a persons spiritual experience must be worked out personally and privately, and no one religious tradtiion has a monopoly on truth - therefore the state must honor the freedom of every citizen to work out his/her own path by firmly refusing to endorse, estbalish or take sides with one religious tradtiion over another.

In other words, I do believe spirituality is an essential part of human fullness and that no possibility of a better world exists apart from a change of human heart away from obsessions with greed, power and domaniance and towards compassion, empathy and mutally affirming relationships - this only happens through spiritual awakenings in indvidual heart and minds. But it can't be forced. You can't legislate it. You can't tell others what to think or feel, nor create a society in which government endorses one view over another. Though I wish that more of our public servants had genuine and true compassionate, reasonable relationship-oriented religious faith. I think our nation and the world would be fifty times better than it is now if this were the case. But I also know, there is not way you can force something like this to be. And that is my fundamental objection to all the right wing Christian folks who want to do precisely that.

[Selwynn]

8. People should acknoweldge standards higher than than themselves...

...its just we can't force them to, that's where I cry foul.

[Kinkistyle]

10. I find it ironic that the U.K., a monarchy, has a state-religion

no constitution, no bill-of-rights, yet at the moment has a more secular government and currently has a free-er more democratic government than the United States.

[BloodyWilliam]

11. The very concept of original sin is reprehensible.

And beliving that one's only hope and purpose is some "higher power" is counterintuitive to looking to yourself for improvement. I myself believe in a sort of "higher power," but I also believe that such forces help those that help themselves.

Of course, I also believe that said higher power doesn't hold a bastardly grudge against me for being a descendant of some people who irritated him thousands of years ago. And that said higher power didn't send a clone of himself to be executed by The Man for some convoluded atonement ritual.

Eh. Beyond a certain level, philosophy produces better morals than religious morality. Religion has influenced us, but it takes actual consideration about humanity, not divinity, to analyze, justify, and improve our behavior.

The fundamentalist god is a crutch they keep hitting themselves in the shin with.

[Kinkistyle]

12. God INTENDED for Man to have Sin.

Lets face it. He created two children who had no "knowledge" and did not know right from wrong. Of course, God, that eternal jokester, decides to plant a "Tree of Knowledge" in the middle of Eden and forbid these two dolts from eating the fruit under penalty of death. Kind of like creating "light" before the sun right? Oh yeah.

The devil comes along and of course, finds the situation to be ridiculous and tells Eve the real deal, the truth. Eating the fruit would simply grant them with knowledge and ethical judgement, and that god lied and they wouldn't die.

What do you know, Adam and Eve eat the fruit and they don't die! God kicks them out of Eden and burdens them and their progeny with sin (something God invented) till the end of time.

So what have we learned? God lies and tries to keep Man intellectually in the dark. The Devil actually tells the truth and wants to help man advance himself/herself. Anybody with a brain can see that God wanted for Adam and Eve to Fall, why else would he plant a stupid forbidden tree in the middle of a garden occupied by two folks who don't know right from wrong? Its a perfect case of entrapment and its all their in the first chapter of the bible. This is the very foundation of Christianity. Everything afterwards up to and including Jesus' crucifixion is because of this Fall from Grace.

The scary thing is, fundamentalists like Bush and Falwell and Robertson et al believe this tripe word-for-word and find nothing wrong with it. These people are determining U.S. policy and advising those that do ;(