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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 01:32 AM
Original message
Dean is no McGovern.....
This ought to make those who've been calling Dean another McGovern have another think coming to them....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A50126-2003Nov16.html

Dean has been portrayed, especially by Republicans, as the new George McGovern. But judging by Dean's public statements at least, there is a big difference between the nature of his antiwar critique and the anti-Vietnam critique offered by McGovern and his followers three decades ago.

At the heart of the anti-Vietnam critique was a wholesale rejection of anti-communist containment, the reigning American foreign policy paradigm in those years. Vietnam was not just "the wrong war at the wrong time." It was, McGovernites believed, the logical culmination of two decades of misguided and immoral Cold War strategy. The problem was not just Richard Nixon but the whole foreign policy "establishment," Democrats and Republicans alike, from Dean Acheson through McGeorge Bundy, all of whom who had taken America down the wrong path. And the answer was not just withdrawal from Vietnam but a complete reorientation of American foreign and defense policy. America was on the wrong side of history; its power and influence in the world were a source not of good but of evil. In the McGovernite view, any war was the wrong war. Americans needed to "come home" both to save themselves and all who suffered from their nation's oppressive global influence.

In this respect, at least, Howard Dean is no George McGovern. He opposed the Iraq war, he says, because it was "the wrong war at the wrong time," not because it was emblematic of a fundamentally misguided American foreign policy. Dean has not, in fact, challenged the reigning foreign policy paradigms of the post-9/11 era: the war on terrorism and the nexus between terrorism and rogue states with weapons of mass destruction. "I support the president's war on terrorism," he told Tim Russert this summer. He supported the war in Afghanistan. He even supported Israel's strike against a terrorist camp in Syria because Israel, like the United States, has the "right" to defend itself. (European Deanophiles take note.) Dean does not call for a reduction in American military power but talks about using the "iron fist" of our "superb military." He talks tough about North Korea and at times appears to be criticizing the Bush administration for not addressing that "imminent" threat more seriously. And he especially enjoys lacerating Bush for not taking the fight more effectively to al Qaeda, a bit like John F. Kennedy criticizing Eisenhower in 1960 for not being tough enough on communism.

Of course, all this tough talk could be hot air. Maybe Dean is doing a great job controlling and hiding his inner peacenik. If so, that in itself tells you something about the current state of the foreign policy debate. Even Mr. Speak-My-Mind thinks he has to talk tough. George McGovern didn't.

Another possibility is that Dean's opposition to the Iraq war has been over-interpreted by his supporters on the Democratic left. They think he rejects the overall course of American foreign policy, just as they do. But maybe he doesn't. They think he's one of them, but his views may not be all that different from those of today's Democratic centrist establishment. When Dean criticizes Bush's foreign policy "unilateralism," he sounds like a policy expert at the Council on Foreign Relations, not a radical. "There are two groups of people who support me because of the war," Dean told Mara Liasson a few months ago. "One are the people who always oppose every war, and in the end I think I probably won't get all of those people." The other group, Dean figures, simply "appreciates the fact" that he "stood up early" and spoke his mind and opposed Bush while other Democrats were cowed. Dean may not be offering a stark alternative to Bush's foreign policy, therefore, so much as he is simply offering Democrats a compelling and combative alternative to Bush himself. The Iraq war provided the occasion to prove his mettle.

If so, that has two implications, one small and one big. The small one concerns the general election: The Bushies are planning to run against a dovish McGovern, but there's a remote possibility they could find themselves running against a hawkish Kennedy. The bigger implication, which the rest of the world should note well, is that the general course of American foreign policy is fairly stable and won't be soon toppled -- not even by Howard Dean.

The writer, a senior associate at the Carnegie Endowment, writes a monthly column for The Post.

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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 01:39 AM
Response to Original message
1. I see Dean more like the 'Democratic Reagan' than McGovern
Remember that many people said that Reagan couldn't beat Carter, just as they say that Dean can't beat Bush. Reagan was compared to Barry Goldwater, who was soundly defeated (the biggest defeat ever) by Lyndon Johnson in 1964. Reagan was called too far out of the mainstream. He didn't have the temperment (he was prone to making outlandish statements) or the foriegn policy experience to be President.

Yet, on November 4, 1980, he soundly defeated Jimmy Carter.

So I don't buy the argument that a) Dean can't win, or b) that Dean is the new "McGovern."
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 01:41 AM
Response to Original message
2. I think the McGovern criticism...
Edited on Mon Nov-17-03 01:51 AM by Bleachers7
comes from him looking like a 49-1 loser (unfairly). Not from his organization or even his critique. I think it's an electability issue (not that I agree or disagree).

Edit: Threw in an extra unfairly.
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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. But why is he a loser?
He does just as well as anyone else. Independants like him better than any other Democratic candidate. His issues are popular and receive wide support. The argument is one, where if it is made enough times it must be true. Not that there is any truth to the argument itself, which doesn't make sense.

It's like me saying, well Clark can't win over and over again. Does repetition make it so?
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #4
12. Check post 10.
I should have worded it differently.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. huh? where does that come from?
that's totally unfounded.
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. I wasn't name calling.
I meant that that's the perception. I am not saying that that is reality. I thought I said "unfairly" in my original post.
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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. perception by whom?
Dick Cheney and every Democratic candidate supports civil unions - so I doubt that will be an issue at all. And Dean has already said that this issue is a state issue and shouldn't be introduced at the federal level (which means it is a non-issue).

Second, most people don't have any perception of Dean. Those who do have a 66% to 20% favorable impression of him according to a poll I saw a few weeks ago.

The only people talking about this are other Democrats. And it's never in the context of disagreeing with his opinion, only the "impression" or trying to gauge the "perceptions" of others they haven't even spoken to.
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rumguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 01:42 AM
Response to Original message
3. Dean can win
I usually think so...sometimes doubts creep in...but overall any reasonable examination of his record shows that he is moderate...it's the press that has painted him out to be some kinda raging lefty...

He's also a likable guy.
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Zomby Woof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 01:43 AM
Response to Original message
5. I agree
McGovern was a man of principle and integrity, and even-tempered.

So yeah, the comparisons are wrong and misguided.
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RandomKoolzip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 01:44 AM
Response to Original message
6. It's a shame that being "McGovern-esque" is a pejorative term.
George McGovern would have been a great president. The 1972 election results are still hard to explain, IMHO.

Yes, I know, comparing someone to McGovern is a way of saying "they won't win..." because they're too extremist. I don't think that's an apt comparison when looking over Dean. America today is a far different species of country it was in 1972, and the voting bloc is much more of a polarized bag. THis meme sucks.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. i know, it's amazing how much of that meme is being floated by
Democrat supporters for their candidates. If it hadn't been for them, that meme would've completely died away...
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Silverhair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #6
50. 72 election results easy to explain. $1,000 a year to everybody?
Remember that he wanted to send every single person in the U.S. $1,000 a year as a guaranteed income. At the time that was twice the entire Federal Budget. That alone painted McGovern as a nutcase.

He was a an appeaser at a time when most voters and lived with the results of Neville Chamberlains appeasement. Those voters were scared of appeasement of the communists. The young, for whom Chamberlain was only a name in history books, were more for McG.

And of course there was the Eagleton mess. McG wavered indecisively, at first supporting Eagleton "1000%", then dumping him.

I lived through that election. McG was behind in the double digits after his convention, then his numbers really went down after the Eagleton mess, and they never recovered.

Very easy election to explain. McG scared the hell out of the voters.
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Dr Satan Donating Member (183 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 01:48 AM
Response to Original message
8. yikes
I didn't know Dean was a chickenhawk.
I wish he WAS like McGovern.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. if he was like McGovern, then it'd make you guys happy because he'd
lose....but he's not at all, realistically.
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. No one here wants him to lose against Bush.
I just think that a lot of people want someone else to win the primary (including me, Go Clark :))
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. ehhh....what if Dean gets the nomination--what then?
:shrug:
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. Dean '04 baby.
I can't wait until this primary business is over. I want to get to the business of beating Bush*. I might have more trouble if the nominee is Lieberman.
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TexasPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:02 AM
Response to Original message
16. Dean didn't help himself on this
http://slate.msn.com/id/2090856/
---
A line Dean says to a supporter that he might want to consider dropping: "The only difference between me and McGovern is we're going to be in the White House."
---

If Dean say's he's like McGovern, it's hard for his supporters to tell anyone else he's not. Me, i think the article comparing him to Goldwater holds more water.
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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. I think there are some Democrats who want Dean to lose badly
Just so they can say..."see, we told you he was like McGovern."

Because if Dean wins the Presidency, there will be many people without much to do.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. good point
:toast:
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. I do not want to see Dean lose to Junior.
I don't care about I told you so's or any of that crap. Then again, I do think that Dean being the nominee makes it much harder for us to win the GE.
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ozone_man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #23
51. That means you want junior to lose to Dean.
Its great to be on the same side. :)

Have no fear, Dean will crush Bush in '04.
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Dr Satan Donating Member (183 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #18
25. I want Dean to win
and also say I told you he was like McGovern.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. he never said he was like mcgovern....only his opponents did.
:shrug:
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TexasPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #19
24. the way i read the quote was...
that Dean said, to a supporter, "The only difference between me and McGovern is we're going to be in the White House."

That's from Slate... i dont vouch for the source... but if the quote is accurate, then he pretty much shoveled some of the dirt out of this hole himself. Maybe I'm wrong, though i'm not sure how else to read the quote - i just remember seeing that and thinking 'what an amazingly stupid thing to say'.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #24
29. the difference is that McGovern had a shitty organization
and Dean doesn't.....what part of that don't you get?
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DemPopulist Donating Member (446 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 05:53 AM
Response to Reply #29
48. McGovern did NOT have a shitty organization
He had an excellent organization, which is a good part of why he won the primaries.

Read more here:

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1996/analysis/back.time/9604/17/index.shtml

and here:

http://cgi.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1996/analysis/back.time/9607/19/

Having a great organization just didn't compensate for all his other flaws (as a candidate, not as a statesman).
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dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. and of course he couldn't have been joking
Edited on Mon Nov-17-03 02:15 AM by dsc
that is utterly impossible.

For the record this is the entirety of the quote.

A line Dean says to a supporter that he might want to consider dropping: "The only difference between me and McGovern is we're going to be in the White House."

We are given no idea of context, delivery, to whom he was speaking, who brought up McGovern in the first instance, or any other relevant thing. We just get a snarky comment.
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TexasPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #20
28. i agree completely
it was, as you put it, a "snarky comment" by slate... and it would be interesting to hear exactly why he said such a thing. Was it in response to a supporter who was, perhaps, wearing a smattering of old McGovern election gear? I'm sure it was meant in the most positive way...

but Karl Rove eats that shit for dinner.

I wasn't raising it to say "I think Dean is McGovern" - I was raising it to say that if he's NOT like McGovern (as the title of the thread implies) then he doesn't need to make noises like he might be.

And, it's not about McGovern being a good guy and for the right things - he was! But there's a stigma there and you don't want to brand-bridge to it. It's dumb.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #16
22. Am I the only McGovern fan here lol
:D

I dont get how people go oh so and so is a future McGovern, now the reason why this kinda offends me is simple, one McGovern is still alive and fighting the right wing, I read an article by George last year condemning the right wing, and above all McGovern is and was a fine man. People also need to remember that McGovern's opponent, Dicky Nixon wasnt the rabid right winger George W Bush is, now Nixon was evil but he was moderate especially by '72 standards. All I can say is lol I like Mac.
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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #22
26. No John, I like him too
He is actually a very decent man, who just ran a poor campaign.

He supported ending the Vietnam war, yes. This was of course in 1972. Had he become President he would have ended it once he took office, which would have been on Jan 20, 1973. Richard Nixon ended the war on Jan 25, 1973.

He supported giving all poor and working people a one time $500 bonus that would have given the economy a boost. Bush did this in 2001.

He wanted to balance the budget. Which Nixon had put into deficit.

He was also a World War II hero, who has had books written about him.

What a radical dude.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. yeah, on the upside, Dean's running the best organized campaign
out there :-)
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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #27
31. I have this gut feeling that Dean is going to win big
Whenever people actually hear what he has to say, they like him.

You'll notice the only people who bring up crap about him are other Democrats who are either running against him, or support someone running against.

Notice how they seem to agree with what he is actually saying and then turn around and say "but he can't win because of those positions." It's kind of funny actually.

It's like I wrote above. People just say it over and over again. So it must be true.

On the upside. I think it may be GOOD for Dean that so many people say such things about him. Because when the general public learn his actual positions and realize that he isn't a raving lunatic. They will be extra impressed.

Kind of like how everyone thought Bush was retarded. Then they heard him put together a couple of coherent sentences and thought he was a genius.

There are definitely benefits to lowered expectations.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. I was being a wise ass honestly but you get the picture
The Wild Blue by Stephen Ambrose is one of those books i know. Hes a good guy, I read what he had to say on the lead up to war. Good man, a brave war hero. Why did the AFL-CIO not support anyone then? I didnt know that about balancing the budget and him, its not one of my big priorities but it would be something good to do although not on my high list.
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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. My point John, is that McGovern wasn't a radical
He was soft spoken and gentle. So everyone thought he was kind of flighty. But even then, that's not why he lost.

He actually polled well against Nixon for a long time. But then Nixon went to China, signed the ABM Treaty with the USSR, and the war in Vietnam was coming to an end and his popularity soared by the summer of 1972. Then there was the Eagleson debacle. That killed the McGovern candidacy.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:39 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. I knew the Eagleton debacle was the final nitch
I think McGovern said what made him kind of dovish was his personal experiences in WWII where only half of the bomber crews made it home. People who try to bring up McGovern and such are foolish IMO to do so, Nixon though evil did some moderate things. We cant let ther right wing press lie about who the party is, the DLC will have people believe we lose because we are too liberal but in reality we lost because we let the GOP paint us as what we werent.
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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:45 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. Nixon was a moderate in all domestic policies
He lowered the voting age to 18 (from 21). He created the Environmental Protection Agency. He was very pro-union (part of his southern strategy). He was a strong Keynesian.

He was actually only conservative in appointing judges (although he appointed many liberals too). He appointed 2 of the judges that supported Roe v. Wade.

I meant to write Eagleton. It's really late.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:54 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. but a hawk on foriegn eh
Yes one of the judges who said NO to Roe V Wade was a Kennedy appointee, Bryon White. The other who he appointed still is there today, William Rehnquist.
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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 05:26 AM
Response to Reply #36
45. Nixon was a moderate (a bit liberal, even) in his domestic policies, but..
...immoderate in his rhetoric. He was really the originator of what has become the Repug standard operational procedure: question the patriotism of your opponents, "go negative" as early and often as possible, use attacks on your opponent's character (whether founded in fact or not), reel in Southern white voters with veiled appeals to racism, complain constantly about "the liberal media," and so on. Above all, the keystone in the Nixon (and, later, Republican) strategy was to polarize, to divide the country into "us" versus "them," to demonize anyone on "the other side" as not only stupid but traitorous and personally immoral. Think of how often you hear our problems being blamed on "the Sixties"...Nixon started that. Think of Ann Coulter, and her accusing all Democrats of treason...Nixon started that. Think of how "liberal" has been made into an obscene word...Nixon started that, too.

If you look at most of what Nixon actually accomplished in the foreign and domestic policy areas, and you'd have to consider him a very good President, albeit one with some notable flaws and failures. However, to my mind, all that is as nothing compared to the poison he released upon the body politic with his "scortched earth" style. That is enough, as far as I am concerned, to negate everything else he accomplished, and leave him as a truly evil influence on our country.
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Pastiche423 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:42 AM
Response to Reply #22
35. Nope, you're not, John
McGovern was the 1st presidential candidate I voted for. And that vote has been my proudest.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #35
38. lol I know
I just hate it you know when people say so and so is McGovern all over again. We get it both with our candiates of choice you know. He was my dad's first vote too. He really is a great guy, still fighting the right today.
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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 05:29 AM
Response to Reply #35
46. I wish I had had that opportunity...
...but I was only 16 that year, and so had to wait to cast my first vote for Jimmy Carter, starting a trend of "lesser of two evil" choices (although I will grant that Carter became a much greater historical figure after leaving the White House than I would have ever expected).

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Melodybe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 03:40 AM
Response to Reply #22
39. Dean will win
Edited on Mon Nov-17-03 03:47 AM by Melodybe
I watched the Iowa dinner last night, people that say it was Hillary's night are underestimating how Dean's supporters saw it. Dean can do it and I'll tell you why...

Dean will beat them at their own game... Unlike EVERY other democrat he can turn their game around on them--Bush/Media/People that just don't like him, it does not matter. He won't let them put words in his mouth. If they try, he calls them on it or his supporters do it for him. And he is getting more and more supporters, folks. I beat his book hits the best seller's list in a month.

Honestly, what democrat is going to vote for George W, if he voted for Al Gore in 2000? We are so pissed, the person we voted against has turned this country into an angry, polluted, rundown, police state. WAKE UP!!! We won the damn election! The media is just spewing propaganda. Saying it repeatedly, DOES NOT MAKE IT SO! Believing that is was got us into this mess in the first place!

Lets add these folks up: Gore voters 50,861,000+, victims of Enron and Worldcom 100,000+, anyone that has had family or friends in Iraq killed or horribly disfigured, at least half of the people that now can't pay for their children to go to college or their medical bills, the owners of small businesses that have been taken over due to a relaxation in laws restricting giant cooperations, the woman that finds out her child has some kind of cancer because environmental regulations have been ignored or done away with. I could go on!! Their lives have been ruined, changed for the worst because of the actions of one small group of people: rich, white, bigots!! That the media has the audacity to even suggest that Bush can win makes me chew nails! Do you want to know what 2 industries grew the most in the last 3 years? The diamond industry and the fur industry!! Of course Bush will LOOSE! Dean has taped into that rage and he will use it as his ticket to the White House!

Dean will win, if they try to cheat, he will call them on it. Democrats WILL NOT have another election stolen, we would revolt. Dean knows this and he it using it to his advantage. Do I think that Dean is as perfect as he appears? Hell no, I don't trust politicians in general. Do I think that he will fulfill all of his campaign promises? Hell no, I don't trust politicians, But I do believe that Howard Dean wants to be president, and he is the type of person that gets what he wants. The man has never lost an election! Heck, Bush has lost at least 2. I do believe that once Dean is chosen nominee Democrats will unite in a way we never have before. I do believe that Dean is better for America than Bush. I do believe he will win.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 03:54 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. I dont doubt hes electable
Edited on Mon Nov-17-03 03:57 AM by JohnKleeb
Well if your point is that, then I think my candiate is more electable than most believe. My candiate's book is doing pretty well. I dont doubt Dean can win, now on the other hand, I am a stubborn idealistic sob :). I think just about anyone can beat Bush. I prefer Kucinich's vision above all the candiates, thats the vision we need I think. I was btw arguing its kinda hard to compare this election to '72, Nixon I said though a fuck was not right wing like how Bush is. Personally I think Dean can win but I prefer my candiate's vision, thats why I support him in the primaries, and I too think he could win.
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Melodybe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 04:04 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. I like Kucinich
I wish that we lived in a world run by Noam Chompsky. I think that Kucinich was the victim of a Hollywood-ized America, not flashy enough, not conventionally good-looking enough. The media branded him the second they didn't like what he had to say. It is unfortunate, I think that he cares about people, and could do a lot of good. I think initally he was much more electable than most give him credit for but it is too late in the game.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 04:10 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. A lot of people like Kucinich
:shrug: just aint ready to commit I guess. See this is what bothers me, a lot of people like Kucinich but the unelectablity stuff. Nah its not too late. Its never too late. I tell you, gotta believe, keeps me motivated. Its the superficial stuff you know that makes people not willing to support Kucinich. See we can not let the media choose our candiate, thats why. I really do think, this is a perfect time for a good solid liberal president who has a great vision for American and IMO thats Kucinich.
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Melodybe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 04:33 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. Dean is stronger
I voted for Nader in 2000, however, I had that luxury since I live in MS. We go repub. no matter what I do. You better believe that if I lived in a swing state, I would have voted for Gore (and I really dislike TIpper!). Dean is getting through to people, he is motivating people like me to actively campaign for him. He has that strength about him, he has that power. It is not fair but it is true, Dean is strong enough to bring people together, his supporters come from all over, former repubs/former greens his platform has something for everyone. No other candidate can claim that, that is why he will win. It is great to vote for your morals but don't be stubborn. People aren't ready for Kucinich, but they are ready for Dean. Don't worry Kucinich is young, maybe his time will come, but right now he alienates too many middle of the road folks to defeat Bush. Kucinich is a bit before his time, hopefully he will get his chance to shine later.
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JohnKleeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #43
61. umm Kucinich is older than Dean by 2 years
So that point is kaput. I am not going Green if he doesnt get the nod, I am a lifelong dem, I havent plans to leave but getting edgy is all.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #61
70. really?
I thought Kucinich was younger...
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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 05:35 AM
Response to Reply #39
47. An unfortunate answer...
Honestly, what democrat is going to vote for George W, if he voted for Al Gore in 2000?

Actually, a number of polls have shown that a large number of Jewish voters, at least in Florida, now support Bush despite having cast their votes for Gore (except that they probably counted for Buchanan :-( ) back in 2000. The reason for this, supposedly, is that they saw Junior as being likely to continue his father's middle-east policies, which they saw as tilted too strongly toward the Palestinians. However, they now see that Bush 43 is nothing at all like 41 in that regard, and is in fact a hardline supporter of Israel, probably more so than any Democrat might be.

(Note: Before anyone tries to hang the "anti-Semitic" tag on me, note that I am taking this information from opinion surveys carried out by major polling organizations. These results have been written up in a number of publications over the past couple of years.)

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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 05:11 AM
Response to Reply #22
44. No, you're not...
I think it is one of the sorriest comments I can make about politics in this country that George McGovern is still held up to ridicule. IMO he was one of the finest public servants (WWII hero, original head of the Peace Corps, multi-term Senator from a conservative state) this country has ever produced. That he lost so badly speaks more to the failings of the American voter than to McGovern himself; that Democratic candidates, more than thirty years later, still feel compelled to distance themselves from him speaks more to the failings of the current Democratic Party and its candidates than to McGovern himself.

(Imagine if Republicans -- Reagan, Gingrich, the Bushes, et al -- had made a point, through the years, of finding a way to ridicule Barry Goldwater at every opportunity and assure the public that they weren't anything like him. Do you think the Republicans would have had the success they have racked up over the past few decades if they had been so willing to repudiate their principles and we hadn't? :-( )

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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #16
57. another dumb thing Dean said
which will be used against him. Yep, I'm taking notes.
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drfemoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:33 AM
Response to Original message
32. Additional Links on DU thread
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 06:59 AM
Response to Original message
49. Let's be clear on this. George McGovern had a number of issues that Dean
doesn't have.

1. Nixon had a 65% approval rating
2. McGovern said that he would get on his hands and knees and beg for our POWs back from the NVA.
3. There was the Eagleton mess
4. The convention was terrible
5. McGovern proposed outright wealth confiscation on large estates.
...

You get the idea. There were all kinds of issues that McGovern had that Dean won't have.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. that's true.....
thanks for the additional info
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
52. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
54. That's for sure. McGovern is a WAR HERO!
What's more, McGovern is a LIBERAL!
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. So IS Kerry.....
and look where that's got Kerry now. Dean's a centrist.....
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IronLionZion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
56. Go Dean! , but its not what we think, its what America thinks
Sure Dean supporters know he's tough on defending America. But so many sheep out there think he is a hippie and will sell us out for "peace and love". What can we do about that?
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. um....
isn't it obvious? We're planning on reaching 2 million supporters that'll help us carry out our message by word of mouth which is what the Deaniacs have been doing so far...
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Hep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. Lots!
We have to take it upon ourselves to be the ombudsmen for our local media outlets. Mousepads and shoe leather.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
60. :kick:
:kick:
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ACK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
62. Only one prob with Dean but it could be a killer...
I think that the working class and middle class tax cuts were cool.

It was a good Al Gore style kick for the economy. My problem was that it was a smoke screen for a huge giveaway for the rich.

Dean drives me nuts on this because he makes himself a target for the he will raise your taxes crowd.

As for him being a McGovern, this is a different age with different probs but he cannot put his foot in his mouth politically too much or he is going to get hammered.

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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. he's good at making the argument that
It's either health care or jobs/balancing the budget or tax cuts. That's what threw my support behind Dean. I'd rather have those things than a tax cut.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. Oh is THAT why?
So sign up with Kerry! - you can keep your tax cut AND have health care:

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/healthcare/
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aldian159 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. Absolutly
n/t
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
63. There aren't many simalarities
I can give between Dean and McGovern except speaking out against a war policy. What will be important if he becomes the nominee is his effectiveness in dealing with the republican propaganda machine. The perceptions of the general electorate is all that will matter.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. Dean survived the republican propaganda machine in Vermont
when he ran for his last term as governor. He was running against a popular Republican and an Independent. Dean had to wear a bulletproof vest and he was called everything from child molestor to an abortionist, but the voters in Vermont saw through the Republican smear machine and it backfired on them. So that's how Dean got the last term as governor. If Dean can survive that, he sure as hell can survive anything Rove will throw at him.
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LoneStarLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #66
68. I Don't See The Critique
I'm a Clark supporter and have been since the draft days. This is something that's talked about quite a bit in the Clark camp's followers and I've never thought it had much substance to it.

The McGovern critique hit its high water mark early-on in Dean's candidacy with his not-too-well-thought-out remarks upon hearing about the deaths of Qusay and Udai Hussein. War fever has since passed into war fright and military victory into the less glamorous realms of occupation and guerilla war.

The only point that concerns me in thinking of a Dean nomination is that the media machine and political machine Dean or whomever will face nationally will be nothing like what he faced in Vermont or what anyone has faced prior to this election (anyone of our candidates). If it's Dean he'll wish he was back in Vermont; if it's Clark he'll wish he was back in Little Rock; if it's Kerry, he'll wish he was back in the Senate.

This election is going to be played for keeps by the Bush/Cheney team because they have so much unfinished neocon business to enforce on the rest of us and because this election is going to be a referendum on them and their approach within the Republican Party. If they lose this election then it's probable that the neocon way of doing things will be toppled from atop the Republican Party.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. I know, and that's why it's vitally important to have a huge
grassroots base that can bypass the rethug advertising by advertising their nominee through word-of-mouth.
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