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BBV: Urgent -- Why HR 2239 won't work, what we need to do right away

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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:13 PM
Original message
BBV: Urgent -- Why HR 2239 won't work, what we need to do right away
Folks, HR 2239 won't do what really needs to be done in the short term. Get behind it for the long term, but in the mean time there is something much more important to do.

We need an emergency interim solution. We have two months. We cannot possibly pass legislation and correct the problems with electronic voting (both optical scan and touch screen) before the 2004 primaries begin. Can't be done, and the risk we face is this: The wrong people might win the primary, giving us the wrong choices in the November election.

I told a reporter in October that if no one else had filed a public suit by November 15, step aside -- I'm in. Well, the only people who have (publicly) are two Republican candidates. So it's time. I'm going in, and need as many of you as possible to do what you can to help me. Can we make this "us?"

I think you will agree that I've been ahead of the curve on this issue. I don't want to be ahead of the curve now -- I NEED you to get up to speed on the real issues and go 'round this curve side by side with me, right away.

1) Both optical scan and touch screen systems are flawed, because they are improperly audited, putting out an open invitation for tampering.

2) We have no time to redo legislation or recertify systems or mandate better auditing by the primaries.

3) Therefore, to ensure that we can have confidence in the system, we need, immediately, to go to PAPER BALLOTS, HAND COUNTED for the primary election.

4) Concurrently, we should work on long term solutions, like HR 2239 with a vastly beefed-up audit procedure -- but if we can achieve only one of these two goals, it needs to be getting the plug pulled on unaudited machines for the upcoming primary. Note that I didn't say "get a paper ballot for the primaries." That's no good, since we aren't using the paper ballots to audit.

5) The best way to achieve what we really need is by filing injunctions. We need to do this concurrently in as many states as possible, starting with the 37 Diebold states.

To this end, I am lining up attorneys. Yes, a few have come on board. One location won't do it. We need multiple locations, filed concurrently, and we need clean, quick yes-no type cases, which we have the documentation already to prove.

I am putting out a call for more attorneys, but have little expectation that they will come from DU -- or they would have before. I am not going out and calling lawyers -- been there, done that, it's a waste of time. Have people call me, because I won't trot around the block on that.

Those attorneys who have called me have been coming through. In every case the good ones were referred by activists, like you. So make a pitch and have your contacts call me. But there's more you can do:

In connection with this, we need more researchers. I am talking public cases, not Qui Tam, not copyright disputes, but filing for injunctions to halt machine use until we can put a proper system in place.

The specific legal case varies state by state. We need more people with very good analytical skills to pull together evidence on specific issues identified by the lawyers, which will vary according to the type of action filed.

Here is my contact information:
Bevharriscontact@aol.com
For attorneys and the press ONLY 425-228-7131
(love to talk to others, can't, no time, use e-mail).

I have access to some 65,000 documents, many of which have never seen the light of day. I will provide it for public interest lawsuits. I'm committing my time to this -- and if we coordinate and consolidate information, we can get a lot done in a relatively quick and simple way.

I have also been negotiating with research groups from some of our major universities. Need more. I can put university researchers in touch with the hard-to-find material they need so they can do their studies, but not irresponsibly; I am requiring a curriculum vitae and a project description and an interview first, and the deal must go two ways -- in other words, they must also help us by adding their names, as expert witnesses, pro bono. Feel free to put your academic contacts in touch with me.

According to my calendar, the Iowa primary is in January. Do you really want to risk the result on these machines? Do you really think passing HR 2239 will get us out of our immediate jam? Push HR 2239 if you have time, but first, commit more time to lining up attorneys and helping with the research.

Cases can literally be filed in each county -- 159 cases are possible in Georgia alone. It is not one state per customer.

Tell them to call me. I can discuss approaches with them, some of which can compensate them for their time.

Let's do this thing.

Bev Harris

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donsu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
1. Double Kick
nt
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
2. I just voiced mailed an attorney I know. I gave him your
contact info. His name is Gatewood Galbraith. Yes the same Gatewood, for you who know of him.

I will try to contact my brother in law too. He's pretty busy, but I am sure he can find the time for a good progressive fight.
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Absolutely awesome, Alfredo.
As usual. I'm ready to rock with this.

Bev
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
4. it's always urgent
It was urgent when people were supposed to lobby the League of Women voters to support this bill you're now saying it's urgent to forget.

It was urgent for people to produce scripts for a Flash presentation to accompany your "Pentagon Papers" story.

It's urgent that I call now to buy some crap on the Home Shopping Channel. It's always urgent.

How's the book coming, by the way?
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. The book is done. Ships this week.
Edited on Mon Nov-17-03 02:50 PM by BevHarris
Hell yes it's urgent.

And the lobbying of LWV was specifically to get them to drop their opposition to a paper trail. And read the post: I do not say to forget the bill, I say support it, but it can't help us for the primaries.

The book has been on the Web for a week now. A shortened version, after structural editing, with a better page design is in the printed book, with some new info. Thanks to everyone who contributed to the information in the book.
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ldf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #4
31. and, cocoa, it is urgent that people see you
as part of the problem, and not part of the solution.

you don't want to play ball, get out of the ballpark.

or is it your sole purpose to distract, disinform and play the divider?

geez....
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Room101 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
5. Kick, for when I have time later tonight
KICK
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govegan Donating Member (661 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
7. Great idea, get the heat on!
Of course you have support here in King County. Personally, I can not do much now in legal circles right now.

I support these actions, but one point: I am much less wary of Democratic misuse of these blackboxes. However, I would not put it past the neo-fascist power mad folks to mess with primaries to upset the apple cart. We know how hard they work to marginalize people like Dennis Kucinich! I am sure there are some who would love to throw the Democratic primary contests into disarray.
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Consider this: Suppose you are a neofascist. Would you like
to have access to selection of the Democratic candidate?

In some ways, if illicit control were achieved, it would be even more damaging to exert this control at the primary level.
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. I would like punchcards
which are the best proven way to disenfranchise minority voters. And I would do everything in my power to impede the switch to better methods.

And in the meantime, I would do everything I could to decrease confidence in voting in general, thus increasing cynicism and suppressing voter turnout.

The last thing I would do is support efforts that actually have a chance of improving confidence in a constructive way.

That is, if I were a neofascist.
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Please provide your proof that punch cards are
Edited on Mon Nov-17-03 04:49 PM by BevHarris
"the best proven way to disenfranchise minorities."

I have been researching this issue for a year, and that does not stand up for many reasons.
1) Touch screens, according to the M.I.T./Cal-Tech study, are the only modern system that loses more votes than punch cards

2) According to a Georgia study put out by Cathy Cox's office, there was a huge discrepancy between African-Americans and white voters when it came to confidence in the touch screens. The evidence it provided was that African-Americans mistrusted touch screens.

3) Vote suppression techniques have had a brutal effect on minority voters

4) Voter registration purges had another brutal effect on minority voters.

I don't know about neo-fascists; If I was them, I'd prefer paperless touch screens that are hackable. As for me, I've got five kids, not a one of 'em white. Believe me, I have no incentive to disenfranchise them from their vote. It is because of them that I put my life on hold for a year to help regain a system that we can all have confidence in.

And thanks for kicking my thread.

Bev
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. I'm a minority
but it doesn't make my opinion any more valid than yours.

Neither does the fact that I live in Cook County, which had a 7% failure rate in 2000. I don't really care if my personal vote was counted, I'd thrown it away myself by voting for Nader. But I'm concerned with the ridiculous number of invalidated votes overall.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-nws-elect03.html

The problems even extended to Chicago, where 7 percent of punch-card ballots cast in the city did not include a recordable vote for president. That was a major reason Illinois had the nation's worst performance on ballot errors.


And yes, I know you're an expert in this area. You have been billing yourself as the author of "Black Box Voting" for almost a year now. Good to hear it's coming out this week.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #13
38. I was an election observer in a jurisdiction the last time it used punch
cards. The election officials there told me that in the two decades that team had run that polling place they never had a single spoiled ballot. They said the key was that you have to keep the machines clean ... you have to clear the chads from the receptacle.

In FL, they hadn't cleaned the receptacle out in something like 7 elections.

By the way, in FL the pollworkers had to run a test on the machines in PBC. If the machines failed the test, they were supposed to do something about. They were supposed to send the test results to Election HQ. The ran the tests, dropped the test cards in an envolope, and months later somebody opened up the envelopes. They showed that some of the polling places had 50 percent error rates on the test cards. Yet the people running the polling places did nothing (even thought they could have cleaned the machines or replaced them with backup machines which every polling station had).

So, the thing about punch cards is that you can screw them up if you want to, or you can have virtually error-free elections with them if you want to.
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. Now that is an interesting and valuable observation.
Doesn't HAVA say that counties don't have to spend all this money on unfunded mandates like buying voting machines they won't get compensated for, if they put in a better training program for their punch card system?

I think that is one of the little-known situations with HAVA.

Bev
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RedEagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-03 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #40
43. Nope, don't have to get rid of punch cards
If counties undertake an education program, they don't have to get rid of punch cards.

As a practical matter, some probably should- and maybe buy the systems that work. One of the punch card systems used in the last California election worked better than the touch screens. There is probably a list somewhere Bev, in all the CA research.

Also, another activist found that by federal regulation, Secretaries of State shouldn't be certifying systems that produce hanging chads. And I believe that there is a Florida regulation on that also. Which means, besides other shenanigans, Katherine Harris was not doing her job. Any systems that produced hanging chads should not have been certified. (Which is not the same as not cleaning the darn things in seven years, another deplorable offense let go)
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-03 03:43 AM
Response to Reply #43
46. Correction: 7 elections, not 7 years.
And, if I remember correctly, that eleciton was in '98, the same year they really got the ball rolling with a couple laws, and the voter purge. I'm a little rusty on my FL knowledge. However, I remember when I was reading up on it that it seemed like it was 98 when they began to put the pieces in place for W's "victory."
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. It seems like the thing about elections systems is that they're supposed
Edited on Wed Nov-19-03 09:14 PM by AP
to have the appearance of reliability, but be easily manipulated if someone wants them to be manipulated. You can manipulate punch cards and you can manipulate electronic voting, but at least you have a paper record with the punch cards, and at least election observers can stand there and say "clean out the machine" or "can I see the test results?" in the morning.
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. One thing I know little about is the computer system used
to count the punch cards. Folks told me I'd have enough for a 300-page book. Actually, there's enough for a 2000-page book.

Things I never had time to research include this whole murky thing about punch card computer counting -- because, like optical scans, they give us a paper record but they do get counted by computers.

I assume those computer programs are made by the same players...does anyone know anything about punch card tabulation programs?

I do think they may have fewer back doors. The more complex the system, the greater the likelihood of unintended results. But we'd need to know more about how those punch cards are counted, wouldn't we?
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RedEagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-03 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #42
44. Older programming, probably
I would guess the punch card programming is older, maybe before they figured out they could manipulate the system so easily. And since they quit manufacturing them (didn't they?) it's probably not worth the time and effort to do much with that programming.

That would be my guess. And I'll bet some of those programs don't run on Windows, either!
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-03 03:39 AM
Response to Reply #42
45. At the poll I watched, they manually count the cards, tripple checking the
count, recording what they have (no mistakes at the punch card place I was at) but they send them all to command central for the tally, which I wasn't assigned to watch, so I have no idea what went on there, although I did follow the ballots to make sure they went straight to command central.
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wheresthemind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
11. bump
just put it out on the old MN for Kucinich list-serve!
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Thanks! n/t
.
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
14. now 69 cosponsors
three more joined last Friday. More signed up in October than in any previous month. Odd time to start calling an emergency "no hope" alert.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d108:HR02239:@@@N

Rep Wexler, Robert - 6/17/2003
Rep Baird, Brian - 6/17/2003
Rep Woolsey, Lynn C. - 6/17/2003
Rep Hinchey, Maurice D. - 6/17/2003
Rep Lee, Barbara - 6/17/2003
Rep Kaptur, Marcy - 6/17/2003
Rep Van Hollen, Chris - 6/17/2003
Rep Conyers, John, Jr. - 6/17/2003
Rep Brown, Sherrod - 6/24/2003
Rep Frank, Barney - 6/24/2003
Rep Eshoo, Anna G. - 6/24/2003
Rep Schakowsky, Janice D. - 6/24/2003
Rep Hoeffel, Joseph M. - 6/24/2003
Rep Scott, Robert C. - 6/24/2003
Rep Strickland, Ted - 6/24/2003
Rep Owens, Major R. - 6/24/2003

Rep Filner, Bob - 7/9/2003
Rep Lantos, Tom - 7/9/2003
Rep Rothman, Steve R. - 7/9/2003
Rep Brown, Corrine - 7/9/2003
Rep Case, Ed - 7/21/2003
Rep Davis, Danny K. - 7/21/2003
Rep Farr, Sam - 7/21/2003
Rep Jones, Stephanie Tubbs - 7/21/2003
Rep Wynn, Albert Russell - 7/21/2003
Rep Fattah, Chaka - 7/21/2003
Rep Baldwin, Tammy - 7/25/2003
Rep Kucinich, Dennis J. - 7/25/2003
Rep Hastings, Alcee L. - 7/25/2003

Rep Berman, Howard L. - 9/4/2003
Rep Kilpatrick, Carolyn C. - 9/4/2003
Rep Miller, George - 9/4/2003
Rep DeFazio, Peter A. - 9/4/2003
Rep Kildee, Dale E. - 9/4/2003
Rep Nadler, Jerrold - 9/4/2003
Rep McDermott, Jim - 9/4/2003
Rep Grijalva, Raul M. - 9/4/2003
Rep Towns, Edolphus - 9/4/2003
Rep Green, Gene - 9/4/2003
Rep Maloney, Carolyn B. - 9/4/2003

Rep Smith, Adam - 10/2/2003
Rep Honda, Michael M. - 10/2/2003
Rep Ross, Mike - 10/2/2003
Rep Udall, Tom - 10/2/2003
Rep Johnson, Eddie Bernice - 10/2/2003
Rep Deutsch, Peter - 10/16/2003
Rep Sanders, Bernard - 10/16/2003
Rep Hooley, Darlene - 10/16/2003
Rep Cummings, Elijah E. - 10/16/2003
Rep Thompson, Bennie G. - 10/16/2003
Rep Millender-McDonald, Juanita - 10/28/2003
Rep Lipinski, William O. - 10/28/2003
Rep Capps, Lois - 10/28/2003
Rep Bell, Chris - 10/28/2003
Rep Moran, James P. - 10/28/2003
Rep Jackson-Lee, Sheila - 10/29/2003
Rep Brady, Robert - 10/29/2003
Rep Frost, Martin - 10/30/2003
Rep Carson, Julia - 10/30/2003
Rep Watson, Diane E. - 10/30/2003
Rep Jackson, Jesse L., Jr. - 10/30/2003

Rep Larsen, Rick - 11/5/2003
Rep Boucher, Rick - 11/5/2003
Rep Stark, Fortney Pete - 11/5/2003
Rep Jefferson, William J. - 11/5/2003
Rep Lofgren, Zoe - 11/6/2003
Rep Payne, Donald M. - 11/14/2003
Rep Cooper, Jim - 11/14/2003
Rep Doggett, Lloyd - 11/14/2003
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. All right. I really do want to know, Cocoa:
Does HR 2239 solve the auditing problem? Does it do anything at all for optical scan machines? Does it do anything whatsoever for the GEMS hack? If it gets to the floor, and gets voted on, and is signed into law,

WILL IT BE IN EFFECT IN JANUARY 2004?

Because my post is about having an interim plan for a trustworthy voting system for the primaries.

If you believe that HR 2239 can achieve this in time for the primaries, that would be the easiest way to go. Can you, or anyone else, lay out a plausible scenario to salvage the integrity of the voting system in time for the Iowa primary?

Bev
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. you asked me above if I was a minority
I answered the question, and then you edited your post to remove the question.

You'll understand if I don't answer this one won't you?
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. No, I edited it because I want to make sure and stay on good terms
Edited on Mon Nov-17-03 07:32 PM by BevHarris
and wasn't sure if that fit the rules. I thought it relevant since you were talking about minority disenfranchisement, wanted to know your experience with that. Then I decided to stay safe with the mods and remove all personal stuff -- though it wasn't meant as an attack, obviously, it seemed unnecessary to the point I was making. You'll notice that I also disclosed my own connection with the minority community, and did not edit that out.

The question is for all of us: How can we get a trustworthy voting system by January?

The only way I can see to do that is to take a pause and go back to hand-counted paper for a few primaries, until we know what we're doing with the machines.

Bev
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goobergunch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. HR 2239 is effective for the 2004 GENERAL election (n/t)
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #14
20. not a single Minnesota Congressperson is a co-sponsor
Not a single Minnesota Congressperson is a co-sponsor.

Fellow Minnesotans, let's do more to contact our Congresspersons and spread the word.
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lysergik Donating Member (340 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. *ZERO* Republicans are co-sponsors in this non-partisan issue!
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1971 Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #23
39. *3* Republican co-sponsors to HR 2239
Woo-Woo!

Since 11/14/03:

(D) Rep Payne, Donald M. - 11/14/2003
(D) Rep Cooper, Jim - 11/14/2003
(D) Rep Doggett, Lloyd - 11/14/2003
(D) Rep Gutierrez, Luis V. - 11/17/2003
(R) Rep Shays, Christopher - 11/18/2003
(R) Rep Davis, Tom - 11/18/2003
(R) Rep Bass, Charles F. - 11/18/2003
(D) Rep Allen, Thomas H. - 11/18/2003
(D) Rep Clay, Wm. Lacy - 11/18/2003

SPECIAL THANKS to the much-needed Republican support:

Rep Christopher Shays (R-CT)
Rep Tom Davis (R-VA)
Rep Charles F. Bass (R-NH)

Let's hope they will encourage their fellow GOP-ers to sign-on!

In the meantime...
Gotta get something done about paper ballots for the Democratic primaries, beginning in JANUARY! Yikes!!
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gristy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
17. I've forwarded this to a lawyer I met in Washington at the ANSWER rally
I had already asked him if he could help on this issue and he declined (though not immediately). But I think if you have a framework set up and other lawyers working on it, this may sway him. Hopefully he'll be in touch with you.
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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. Thanks. I've got some work already done.
Appreciate making the contacts.

Bev
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
19. I have forwarded this to a friend in NC......
I hope she will be able to help!

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BevHarris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. Good. "Gaston County has done some fancy footwork..."
(excerpt from a Ken Clark memo)
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #24
30. I read that one.....
Edited on Mon Nov-17-03 09:10 PM by leftchick
fancy footwork indeed! :grr:

I keep spreading the word here in NC and am trying to create a huge group of pissed off citizens to heat up the "I Want To SEE My Vote Count" movement!

on edit: Bev, are you considering bumper stickers? I would Love to have some and think many others wouls also.
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JohnGideon Donating Member (492 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
25. OK, Bev....
I'm not a student. I'm not a lawyer and don't really know any who I would even think would get involved. So what do I do? What do the thousands of others in my situation do to help?

I'll keep doing what I have been doing but what you are talking about now is way over my head.
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1971 Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
26. big kick up
Good idea, Bev.
Hey, everybody, primaries begin in January! Work on those states first.
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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
27. just keeping this on top
:kick:
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
28. This needs a kick.
:kick:
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1971 Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
29. Paper not Vapor (kick!)
:kick:
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dusty64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 07:48 AM
Response to Original message
32. Kick!
:kick:
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
33. Another all important KICK***
Glad to see you back around Bev Harris!*****
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never cry wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
34. Needs a kick....n/t
:kick:
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althecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. And another one Kick
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 06:13 AM
Response to Original message
36. kick
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dusty64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-19-03 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. One more.
:kick:
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laylah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-03 06:27 AM
Response to Original message
47. Keepin' this kicked up! n/t
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Matilda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-20-03 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #47
48. Kick!
I'm in the wrong place to help, except by kicking it back up.
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