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Why George W. Bush will lose the next election (a must read)

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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 06:36 PM
Original message
Why George W. Bush will lose the next election (a must read)
Edited on Mon Nov-17-03 06:37 PM by jeter
The media, many republicans and some people here are convinced the Democrats are headed for certain doom come next November. But I am convinced otherwise. I am convinced we will win. No matter who the candidate. George W. Bush is not the 900 pound gorilla often portrayed. The question, "what will we do to beat him" is misleading and erronious. The proper question should be, "what will he do to beat us." Because George W. Bush will lose the next election. Not because of circumstances beyond his control. Not because of a liberal media. The reason George W. Bush will lose the Presidency is George W. Bush.

Some often cite the victories of the Republicans in this months elections and last years midterms as proof that we are in trouble. But this is wrong. Because the reason we lost those elections have nothing to do with the country moving more conservative. It had to do with a) the nature of the seats that were up for grabs, and b) the fact that the Republicans had a national campaign, whereas us Democrats did not. The President stumped for congressional candidates, whereas the Democrats didn't have a "leader" to do the same. Therefore, they had a coherent message. We didn't. They won. We lost. 2004 will be different in this respect for the obvious reason. We will have a Democratic candidate with ideas and a platform. The Democratic Party will rally behind the said candidate. The Republicans will not have a monopoly on the message that the American people receive. But this is not why Bush will lose. It only debunks the myths that many people believe. A victory in the midterms does not equal victory in a Presidential general election.

So why will he lose? The simple answer is mathematics. The seeds of Bush's impending defeat were actually sewn in his "victory" in the 2000 election. George W. Bush won the support of 94% of his fellow Republicans in that election. With that, he carried every single southern state (historically a Democratic stronghold). By all intents and purposes, George W. Bush received the maximum possible support he could have received in the election and won only 271 electoral votes (only one more than he needed). Also, he lost the popular vote which went to Al Gore by 500,000+ votes. In elections past, whenever a Republican candidate has won such an overwheming base of support from his own party and scored well in the south (never mind sweeping it) he has won the election in a landslide. This was true in 1952 and 1956 (Eisenhower), in 1972 (Nixon), in 1980 and 1984 (Reagan), and in 1988 (Bush I). Therefore, what can we deduce from that? The answer is simple and obvious. The Republican base is actually shrinking, not growing.

States that used to be solidly Republican are now swing states, states that used to be swing states are now Democratic. This has offset the losses Democrats have incurred in the south. In their book, "The Emerging Democratic Majority," Texeria and Judis explain why this is so www.emergingdemocraticmajority.com . I will not go into all the evidence they provide. But if you haven't read the book, I recommend you do so. In it they talk about the growing "ideopolis" and how this group is becoming increasingly Democratic, as well as how moderate or independant voters are increasingly supporting Democratic policies over Republican policies. As a consequence, states falling under the Democratic coalition are growing. The Republicans shrinking.

So that is why George W. Bush can win 94% of his base and carry every single southern state and only win 271 electoral votes and still lose the popular vote overall. Many of you will say, well some of those "swing states" may go to Bush. Yes, that is possible. Because a state leans Democratic, doesn't mean it will go Democratic. But this is why I think Bush will actually lose the next election. For him to win, he needs to expand his party's base of support. Much like how Nixon did with the "southern strategy" after his narrow victory in 1968. He has to appeal to a broader spectrum of support. People vote what is in their self-interest. Politics is a game of coalition building and politicians win when they convince people it is in their best interest to support them. Some of you may disagree. You will say, that many poorer people in the south would be better off voting for the Democratic candidate then they would a republican. Yet they seem to be supporting the Republicans. Well, the reason for that is usually cultural by their nature. Southerners are more culturally conservative than are most Democrats. They may view the "culture war" to be even more important to them than their economic interests and vote accordingly. The GOP strategy beginning in the 1960s played on this division. But like I wrote above, Bush carried every single state in the south. You can't do better than 100%.

So why will he lose? Simple. Because in the three years he has been President, he has done next to nothing to appeal to people outside his base. The southerners and 94% of Republicans. Recent polls show that the majority of Independants are moving away from Bush's style of conservatism and agreeing more and more with Democratic positions. Bush's two main initatives as President have been a) the tax cut and b) the war in Iraq. In both these cases, the supporters have been the same. The right wing of the Republican Party. People will vote their interests, as I wrote above, and Bush has made sure - through his policies - that the interests of the majority of people are either suppressed or ignored. The Democrats can come away with a giant majority in the next election (as much as a 13% plurality) not from Republicans, although we may pick off a few, but by winning over 6% of Independants. That's it. 6% of independants means the difference between a close election and a Democratic landslide. For in the final analysis, which states did Gore carry that will certainly go to Bush now? Which people who voted for Gore will now vote for Bush? By contrast, I think we can do very well among independants. Especially if we hold on to our base. That is why I have always said the strongest ticket the Democrats can present is Dean/Clark (not intended to be a flame war - just my opinion). These two men appeal to the independant voter. They are both from outside Washington D.C. which is a plus. And where one is weak, the other is strong and vice versa. Dean has no foreign policy experience. Clark does. Clark has no executive (political) experience, Dean does. This ticket does the best job at uniting the different factions within the party, etc. Dean has even found a way to neutralize the huge advantage in money being raised by Bush. Imagine after he wins the nomination and if you get 500,000 to 1,000,000 people donating an average of $50 (Dean's current average) that is an additional $25 to $50 million, on top of the $40 million he will have raised to date. That also doesn't include more traditional fundraisers. Dean can reasonably expect to have $50 million to $100 million to fight off Bush's attacks (depending on the duration of the primary season).

So anyway, this is why I believe the Democratic Party will be victorious in the 2004 election. Congressionally, the northeastern and midwestern Republicans are more vulnerable than ever. And we can even do well in the southwest. We have to abandon the old "New Deal Coalition" and create a new "Democratic majority" that will keep us in power for some time.

What do you think?

Please don't let my opinions on Dean and Clark cloud the arguments I have made. I think the same principles are true of any candidate. But it is my opinion, that under the situation I have constructed, the Dean/Clark ticket does the best.

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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 06:37 PM
Response to Original message
1. oooh, good essay.
You're better at this than I am.
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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. thanks slinkerwink
I actually had to write it twice. I closed the window half way through the first time and lost my message. (Stupid me)
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xultar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
3. Clark\Dean...President is always listed first...
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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. If you mean polling
Polling mean nothing. Not at this point. Dean does just as well as Clark anyway. Some show Clark doing better, others Dean.

I just don't think a Clark/Dean ticket is as good a fit. Dean wouldn't be as valuable a VP as Clark would be.
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ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. Won't work
With Clark seen as the National Defense candidate it would be utter folly to put him in the second spot, simply because it could then be used as evidence that the Democratic Party still, as our Republican brethern are sure to frame it, weak on the National Defense and shouldn't be trusted with the keys to the Nation.

Put Clark first and you say clearly that National Defense is the priority of the Democratic Party, then take someone like Edwards and out them in the No. 2 spot to cover domestic policy. Win/Win

Thom

God Bless Robery Byrd
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
5. Yes Of Course, I've Been Maintaining This All Along
No one who voted for Gore will vote for Bush and Bush has alienated ALOT of voters who will definitely NOT vote for him this time around.

It's just not possible he has created new people who will vote for him.

End of story right there.

Now that being said, that doesn't mean he won't "win", just that he won't win a FAIR election.

With the help of a compliant, lazy, sychophantic press they will create the ILLUSION that it's close, which will make it close enough to steal.
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. Agree completely, BW!
If it is a fair election - I think Bush could well lose the biggest landslide in U.S. history! My Repuke in-laws in Ohio have said they will vote for ANY Dem that gets the nomination - because Bush HAS to go! They think he's an idiot, a warmonger, a thief, and a liar! And these folks don't like Dems!
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ArkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #12
45. Yes, republicans will be crossing over nationwide.
They hate dems but they hate Bush more.
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UrbScotty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
6. Worth reading
I recommend this to every DUer.
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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
7. excellent essay
"The Democratic Party will rally behind the said candidate."

And I so hope this is true.
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theorist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
8. My take.
You make several excellent points, but I don't think this allows us be lazy towards any region of the country. We need to study the tactics Bush used to get reelected as the governor of Texas and thwart them. Politically, he has a one track mind.

A few of my ideas so far:
Since television will be pivotal in winning the "swing states", the DNC will have to be very careful with appearances. One idea that I've come up with, is having two of the Democratic candidates (in your case Dean and Clark) run together and proclaim an end to the "Bullyism of American Politics" (or some other catch phrase to combat "compassionate conservatism"). Send out Democratic hatchet men to the FNC, CNN, and NBC talk shows, and then make big spectacles about reeling them in and reprimanding them. Thus, proving to the American people that the Democratic party is the party to "change the tone in Washington". (Of course, they'd have to be careful about what they say about Bush; attack his policies, but not the man. We must maintain a higher level; at least on TV.) Sounds conniving, I know, but Karl Rove needs taste defeat sometime, right?
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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. The one thing I've noticed about Bush
Beginning in his 1994 race against Ann Richards, is that he waits until you attack him. Then puts on this front about how outraged he is and goes on a tear against you.

Remember South Carolina against McCain. There were subtle criticisms about McCain and McCain responded by comparing Bush to Clinton. Bush then came out and spent millions of $$$ against McCain in negative ads in SC.

That's his MO. The one thing Gore did right in 2000, was that he waited for Bush to attack him first. Then Gore reversed the process.

Dean (or whoever) should do the same thing.
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theorist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. There's always the fairness problem, too.
Bush used 'push polls' against McCain (not to mention Pat Robertson's meddling with the network of Baptist churches). Does anyone feel that it would not exactly be reprehensible to form an underground network of "dirty tricksters" (VERY separate from the DNC) to combat the Bush campaign?
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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #15
29. Not at all
We need all the help we can get in swing states...
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JailBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
9. I skimmed your essay rather quickly, but I saw no mention of things like
VOTING MACHINES and PUBLIC STUPIDITY.

I'm going to do all I can to help defeat Bush, but I think it would be very dangerous to pronounce victory at this point. You say the Democrats will have a strong leader this time around. They should have had their acts together in 2002 and 20003. They clearly did not, and they clearly do not at present.

Corrupted voting machines alone could doom us - and that's just one of many dirty tricks Republicans can play. The fact that an ogre like Bush could maintain a public approval rating anywhere near 50% is evidence of the massive stupidity that afflicts America or corrupt media spin, neither of which is an asset.

I've seen virtually no interest in LOCAL POLITICS, which are important even during the presidential election. Candidates running for local offices can rally around issues that will cripple Bush. Reality Check: All the local candidates here in liberal Seattle have been about as inspirational as wet fungus.

Nor have I seen much interest in rooting out the corporate operatives that have infiltrated the ranks of the opposition everywhere. The occasional Freeper is unmasked on this chatboard, but when I ask questions about suspect left-wing columnists and phony activists, people usually either ignore or ridicule me. Clearly, George Bush's opponents have a lot of growing up to do.

If I had to bet money on the outcome of the next presidential campaign, I'd put my money on Bush. That's why it's so important to work harder than ever to unseat him.
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Nlighten1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #9
26. I'm with you here.
While I enjoyed reading the essay I think it is focusing on the positives. A tad bit too much tunnelvision. We can COUNT on wide spread vote fraud by the Republicans and I think this election they are going to pull out all the stops on that.

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RandomKoolzip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
10. What happens if Diebold gets their way and BBV kicks into effect?
I fervently hope and wish that we will win in 2004, but something in the back of my brain tells me that BBV is gonna fuck things up. Plus there's all sorts of people in high places or with inside (suspicious)info who claim that Bush will indeed serve a second term.

So we're gonna have a fight on our hands, guys....
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
14. States that used to be solidly Republican are now swing states
can you list these please? thanks
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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Yes...
California. Went Republican in 1948, 1952, 1956, 1960, 1968, 1972, 1976, 1980, 1984, 1988.

Vermont, Maine, Maryland, New Mexico, New Jersey, Oregon, Washington State, Ohio and Missouri

These states used to be solidly republican.

States like Michigan, Pennsylvania and other "industrial states" used to be swing and now are almost soldily Democrat.

I believe states like Arizona, Nevada, Kansas, and Montana will become swing states (if not in this election then soon after).

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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. PA has TWICE elected santorum and i've lost count of how many times
spectre has been re-upped. of course he's not a right wing pubbie.

i want to have faith in a dem PA but from where i live, in pubbie hell, it's hard.
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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. It has also gone Democratic for Pres three straight times
And Bush's numbers are dropping like a stone. You also elected a Democratic governor there recently.
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #24
43. someone told me last week that whenever PA has a dem govenor
Edited on Tue Nov-18-03 09:14 AM by bearfartinthewoods
they swing pubbie for president and vice versa. i forgot about that until now. if i have time later, i'll reseach it further. i did find this map though.

http://www.presidentelect.org/e2004.html#map

and this one which was done before 2000 showing Pa as a toss up

ON EDIT..quoting

There is good news and bad news for the Democrats.

The good news for the Democrats is that eight of the nine states that shifted from the previous analysis shifted toward them. Florida, Louisiana, and Ohio (worth 56 electoral votes) move from the SOLID BUSH to the LEANING BUSH column. New Hampshire and Wisconsin (worth 14 votes) move from the LEANING BUSH to the LEANING DEMOCRATIC column. New York, Oregon, and Washington (worth 49 votes) move from the LEANING DEMOCRATIC to the SOLID DEMOCRATIC column. Only Connecticut moves to the right in this analysis, but even it remains in the LEANING DEMOCRATIC column. That's 119 electoral votes moving towards the left! With 231 electoral votes, the Democratic candidate is only 39 votes away from winning in 2004.

The bad news for the Democrats is that they are 39 votes away from winning. The electoral map above is the map President Elect believes will be the foundation for the 2004 election. The SOLID states will not budge from now until then (barring some unforeseen extraordinary event). The election will play out in the 14 LEANING states, which represent 162 electoral votes. Of the 231 Democratic electoral votes, only 164 are considered SOLID. While this is a big improvement from the previous analysis, it means they will have to win 106 of the 162 LEANING votes to win. The current analysis only has them winning 67.



http://www.voterzview.com/map.htm

i just don't see a firm trend, more of a bobbeling back and forth.
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #16
47. Most of those are not the swing states
California? Please...
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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. California was a certain GOP stronghold until the 1990s
Jesus, look at the facts:

It was carried by the Republicans in 1948, 1952, 1956, 1960, 1968, 1972, 1976, 1980, 1984, 1988.

It had a Republican governor/legislature in 1938-1950, 1950-1958, 1966-1974, 1982-1998.

Before Gray Davis, California had only two Democratic governors in 60 years. Pat Brown (1958 to 1966) and Jerry Brown (1974 to 1982). And the only time the Democrats carried the state in the Presidential election was the Johnson landslide in 1964.

That looks pretty republican to me.
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. Thank you
You simply proved the fact that Califonia hasn't been a swing state in 16 years.
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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. 16 years?
Edited on Tue Nov-18-03 04:28 PM by jeter
16 years ago was 1988. The GOP won California in 1988. They also had two GOP Senators, a GOP governor (who would serve another 10 years) and a GOP legislature.

I have no idea what you're talking about. The point was that these states that used to be GOP are now becoming more Democratic. That these gains offset the losses we have incurred in the south.

Don't read more into them.
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Nederland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. That makes more sense
Saying it that way makes more sense.

What through me off was your listing California as a swing state. No political analyst today would consider California a swing state.
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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. No Nederland
I was saying that it WAS a swing state or even a GOP stronghold. Now it is Democratic.

That's why Bush can win 94% of his base and every southern state and still win only 271 electoral votes. Because states like California, which use to go Republican, no longer do.

The same trend happening in CA is happening all across the US, especially in the midwest and southwest.

Also, it is important to remember that many states in the northeast - Maine, Vermont, Conneticut used to be considered "swing states" as well. But have gone solidly Democratic.
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kclown Donating Member (459 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #16
51. Don't forget Texas
Could be *'s Achilles' heel.  
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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. The truth is I see Texas going Democratic
but not in 2004. I can see it in 2008 or 2012, same as California did in the 1990s. But Bush's connection to Texas is too strong to be overcomed. That's my opinion. So yes, in the future I see Texas becoming part of the new Democratic Majority. But not in 2004.
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. We Can't Take Anything For Granted
>"what will he do to beat us."

$200 million in advertising,
Diebold,
24x7 free advertising on all the networks
Diebold,
The networks will be able to buy the remaining newspapers and make them all support Bush
Diebold,
The fundie churches will be stumping for him all year
Diebold,
The illegally-disenfranchised voters in Florida will still be disenfranchised in 2004
Diebold,
Diebold,
Diebold,
and if all else fails, there is always the Supreme Court.

> "States that used to be solidly Republican are now swing states"

So are ALL Democratic states now. And I do mean ALL.
We cannot afford to lose a single one of them.

We couldn't even stop Schwarzenagger in California.
That's how bad it has gotten.
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AntiCoup2K4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 07:10 PM
Response to Original message
17. Excellent points
And as another long time prophet of the Dean/Clark ticket, your reasons are almost identical to the ones I've posted here myself. This IS the ticket that will bring down the Bush Criminal Empire.

The Clarkies believe in their man, and I can't fault them for that. But given the current state of the world (even though it's true that the BCE did a lot to make it that way) and the current state of the media (ditto) there's just no way that an inexperienced candidate is going to win at the top of the ticket. And if Clark turns down the VP slot, will he end up in the Dean cabinet as Secretary of State or Secretary of Defense, either of which he would do well at.
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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. He won't turn it down...here's why
There is nothing but upside for him.

If he loses the nomination, which is certain (IMO) then what will he do - run as a Republican? No. He will play the loyal Democratic running mate. If they win, he's vice President. If they lose, he's got another shot to be President in 4 years, this time no one will doubt whether he is a real Democrat or not.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
19. Wrong
Dean will raise more money than that!<grin>

Otherwise, an astute observation. He can't get any more votes than what he got in 2000. Not only can't, he won't. Most of those who did will either sit home or vote Dem.

What I see we've a need to do: Make it an anti-pug election. Don't even mention * by his name. Just say, "The pugs did this and the pugs did that", and "They are just so partisan, they don't even listen to what the other side of the country wants from government. The pugs are too one sided"





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Tatiana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
20. Let's look at that map.


I would say that states that barely went for Bush such as West Virginia (George W. Bush, 331,871 52% - Al Gore, 291,204 46%), Arkansas (George W. Bush, 471,800 51% - Al Gore, 421,136 46%), Missouri (George W. Bush, 1,189,521 50% - Al Gore, 1,110,826 47%), and ESPECIALLY OHIO with its 21 electoral votes (George W. Bush, 2,284,205 50% - Al Gore, 2,111,499 46%)

Oh yeah, and hopefully we can count our votes in FLORIDA (George W. Bush, 2,912,790 49% - Al Gore, 2,912,253 49%)

I'm confident. We've got Byrd in West Virginia, we have Graham in Florida, Blanche Lincoln may be some help in Arkansas, Edwards in North Carolina, Fritz in South Carolina... I don't see where we need a "Southern Strategy." We just need to motivate our base to vote and make sure their votes count.

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AntiCoup2K4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #20
40. Even better map here
Courtesy of the Edwards campaign, an interactive map that lets you play around with the swing vote states or any others, in pursuit of the magic 270.

http://www.johnedwards2004.com/map/

Not an Edwards supporter, but the map's pretty cool.
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lonewolf0507 Donating Member (119 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
22. Very Well Done
Excellent Essay, once again smart minds on this website.
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Wapsie B Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 08:10 PM
Response to Original message
25. Excellent essay!
It gives us all hope. Never thought of it this way before but it is true. He's maxed out. He's brought no new voters into his fold, and if some of these personal accounts are to be believed has alienated many who voted for him the first time around. Thanks. I needed some good news today.
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Penible Donating Member (39 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
27. Pew Research, released November 5

Googled a bit to check for numbers and found this:

http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=196

According to Pew Research, the pubs have gained significantly in party identification since 9-11, particulary in the swing states:

Republican gains have come across the board, both geographically and demographically. The GOP has made significant increases in party allegiance in 13 of 50 states since 2000, and six of these 13 have been crucial swing states in recent elections such as Florida and Michigan. The Democrats have even lost some ground in states that have gone consistently to the Democratic candidate in recent presidential elections, such as California and Washington. In fact, the Democratic advantage in Blue states is now about what it was nationwide during Clinton's second term.

I dont pretend to understand polls very well, and there may be flaws in this one. But the entire article was thought provoking.

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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Ya sure, if you're a freeper
That's why Bush is doing so poorly on foreign policy nowadays.
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Penible Donating Member (39 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Pardon?

You are really going to have to explain yourself, because I genuinely dont understand.

Ok. You DONT have to explain yourself. Peace, anyway.

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Penible Donating Member (39 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. And BTW

Are you saying the article is irrelevant to your analysis, or that it is skewed, or what the heck did your retort mean?

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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #30
33. In the history of elections, no election has been decided on FP
FP = Foriegn policy.

It just doesn't happen. It is always decided on domestic politics. The only time foreign policy comes into play is when it is negative, ie when a war goes badly or something

Examples in US history -

George Bush Sr. (1992) won Gulf War, oversaw fall of communism. Lost convincingly.

Democrats (1946) won WW2, but GOP took over control of Congress.

Democrats (1920) Had Won WW1, established a New World Order (Versailles, Wilson's 14 points) but were defeated nonetheless.

There is no example of a party losing because of foreign policy. 1980, the Democrats loss had more to do with the economy and inflation situation than the Hostage Crisis.

In 1968, the Democrats lost. But not so much because of Vietnam but because of the split between the traditional Democratic base and the Wallace candidacy. It was still a very close election nonetheless.

Then there is the granddaddy of all.

After Winning World War II and saving Britain, Churchill and the Tories were defeated overwhelmingly by the Labour Party (1945).

Because people vote what is in their interests. That was the point of my post. There simply is no historical basis to say that war or foreign policy ever comes into play when deciding a President.

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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. One more thing having reread that article
It says that the GOP have made some political gains. But the article is really about how the two parties are more polarized than ever. Especially on Foreign Policy.

It is not insinuating that this will benefit either party. If you look at some of those graphs, you'll notice that the independant voter agrees with the Democrats more than Republicans by a 42% to 32% margin.

This again confirms what I wrote above in my post. That Bush, is targetting his own base while at the same time ignoring all others.

That is what will do him in. Because more than Republicans vote in elections.

P.S. I wasn't calling you a freeper. I was saying that the article is good if you were a freeper. Because they're the ones satisfied with Bush's handling of the situation in Iraq. Also, they are the ones who support the tax cut.

Everyone can be damned.

That is why Bush will lose.

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jsw_81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
28. Interesting analysis
One point we should remember: no president who lost the popular vote has ever been re-elected. Ever.
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Dems Will Win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. Don't forget New Registers Youth will give Dean (only) an extra 5%
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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-17-03 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Dems will win, another reason why Dean is the best candidate
If he does appeal to younger voters, and that group traditionally does not vote (lower than national average anyway), then getting that group out to vote will benefit us.

For example, let's say that turnout among 25 million young people is only 33% and the Democrats win that group by 60 to 40 margin. That's a 1.66 million vote differential.

Now lets say that that number is increased to 60% and Democrats still win by a 60% to 40%. That mean we win by a 3 million vote differential or a gain of more than 1.3 million votes.
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shindig Donating Member (187 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. you are underestimating the war on terror factor
I, too, read the book you are referring to. It is very encouraging, indeed. However, this time around Bush is going to run on terrorism! And he will say that he is doing the best he possibly can to fight terrorists. And there are many, I fear, who will vote for Bush this time around, who voted for Gore last time. This is on account that Bush positions himself as running against terrorists. As messed up as it is, Bush looks good to people because he frames his opponents as terrorists. And he will do that, BIG TIME, during the general election.

Unless we have a candidate that people will believe can do a better job than he on fighting terrorists, and at the same time can explain to people that democrats are not the same as terrorists, I am afraid we are in danger of losing the next election. We need a candidate who can say, with a straight face, that Bush is fighting terrorism in the wrong way. That Bush's approach is leading us, as the mayor of London so aptly put it, to the extinction of life on this planet.

While we remain brave and while we do not let fear dictate our actions, it is quite true that there is a fairly large segment of the world's population who want to kill every single one of us. This is not an illusion, and it will be, again, as it was in 2002, the big campaign issue!

I support Wes Clark because, 1. I think he is our best hope in diffusing terrorism in the most effective way possible. Why? He has experience in this line of work. He is both a warrior AND a diplomat. He will lead. He can inspire our allies. Our allies are worried about terrorism, too. But they are just as worried about Bush. 2. Wes is the best chance at convincing the electorate that he is the candidate most qualified to be the commander-in-chief of the United States. He can win the election based on his qualifications to head the job of diffusing terrorism; 3. I agree with MOST of his domestic positions (his positions should be popular with the segment of the population comprising the democratic progressive majority--the premise of the book refered to in your post); 4. He's one tough son-of-a-bitch who(like Dean, I will grant you), will dish it right back during the general election; 5. If elected, he has the best chance of pushing through his agenda in Congress, even without "official" governing experience (although managing large military bases does count as having governing experience in my book.)He has the best chance of pushing through the democratic agenda, because he is the least polarizing figure, between he and Dean. We will have to work with the republicans after we beat them next November. After the bruising election, I see the new loyal oppostion party as willing to work with the Clark style more so than they would with Dean.

I think Clark is our best chance. But I am weird, I am not a Dean-hater...he is my second choice! I thought he was great in Iowa on Saturday night. What was I doing home on Saturday night watching that? :)
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. Bush will lose for reasons mentioned and beyond.
Come, we buy fireworks
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July Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #36
44. Wasn't there an article on young voter participation recently?
I'm pretty sure that registration in that group (as a percentage) is only in the teens, with actual voting in the last election a single digit percentage. Wish I knew where I read that. Anyway, if that's true, it's a huge opportunity for us. We know the pubs are focusing on colleges; it's time for us to do the same.
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Trek234 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #28
41. Just like no president
has ever been installed by the SCOTUS before. Ever.

Things change.
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 12:32 AM
Response to Original message
39. In polls against named Democrats, the Democrat loses
When people are asked "Will you vote for Bush or the Democrat," more people say the Democrat, but when asked "Bush or Clark" or "Bush or Dean," more say Bush.
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jeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #39
46. the polls are meaningless at this point
Polls are almost always wrong at this point.
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dusty64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 07:44 AM
Response to Original message
42. I certainly explains
their desperate push to get through their entire extremist agenda and judicial nominees before the next election/selection. I hope the attempt to gut Medicare and Social Security are filibustered as well as their corporate donor welfare/energy plan.
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leyton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-18-03 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
55. Question...
This article seems to suggest that if Bush doesn't expand his base, he will lose. That is, he has maxed out.

But mathematically... he hasn't. If the electoral map were identical in 2004 as in 2000, Bush would win by a larger margin than before because his states have gained electoral votes. Bush's electoral base has already expanded, giving him a cushion of eight electoral votes.

Sorry, but he's coming in with a mathematical advantage, not a disadvantage.
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