When a nation of law turns lawless

[Q]

- It has happened all throughout history. Kings and their enforcers and 'favorites' remain above the law while the 'commoners' feel the full brunt of it. The king's favorites and enforcers live like barons in luxury as long as they maintain the illusion that the king rules by 'divine right' and is not subject to the same laws as the commoners.

- In New America, John Ashcroft plays the role of the pious enforcer who keeps the masses distracted with harsh laws and selective morality. Rush Limbaugh is treated as a 'favorite' for licking the king's boots and attacking his enemies.

- The whole world once envied the United States of America and their grand experiment of representative government. We had a government where no man/woman was above the law...as the resignation of Richard Nixon demonstrated.

- But now the world recognizes that the United States has become a lawless nation. While millions of US citizens sit in prison cells for minor crimes...the King and his ruling class break the law with impunity.

- A nation that doesn't apply the law equally to all citizens has no business calling itself a Democratic Republic.

[MSchreader]

1. The "R" word

I hear it more and more every day ... from people who would never say it otherwise. We really live in interesting times.

Martin

P.S.: Glad to see you're still here.

[Q]

2. Good morning!

- Just spouting off this morning.

- Over the last few years I've noticed that more and more Americans end up in jail or prison for breaking the same laws the 'ruling class' breaks with impunity.

- The plain truth is that 'our' government has committed treason and other high crimes...yet they remain 'untouchable' because their 'enforcers' and 'favorites' provide a layer of protection and deniability.

- We have indeed become a 'lawless' nation when those with fistfuls of cash and social status can escape justice while WE are punished for not wearing seatbelts or smoking a plant.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Q]

5. You say you want a revolution?

- We literally can't oppose the 'lawless ones' with guns and violence. It would be like bringing a knife to a gun fight. They would simply mow us down or build new prisons to hold the dissenters.

- We've allowed our government to slip into totalitarianism and we're one step away from martial law. As I see it...the only option left is to use the law they abuse against them.

[MadHound]

7. But there is a ray of hope in your analysis

With the cut in soldiers' and vetrans' benefits, the lack of proper medical care for those wounded in Iraq, the lack of even basic survival supplies(like body armour), the members of our military might just sit out a revolution. Or better still, switch sides, bringing their equipment with them. We might have a high tech, push button military, but if you don't have the personell to push the buttons, well you have no military.

This is why I've found Bush's snubbing of the military so bizarre. It is obvious that he is no student of history, for if he was, he would see many accounts ranging from the Roman empire to the British empire of disgruntled troops overthrowing their superiors because they weren't even given the basic supplies and compensation. But hey, if Bush doesn't want to learn from history, so much the better for us.

[Q]

9. But as long as the enforcers and favorites...

...can maintain the illusion of a representative government...any complaints from the military will be seen as insubordination. Notice how the RWingers treat anyone in the military who complain about serving in Iraq or say bad things about Bush*?

- A despotic government can do anything they want as long as they have the media on their side...willing and able to spread misinformation to keep the masses confused or polarized.

- This is why the Bushies have been SO successful in hiding their trail of blood and deceit. They have an 'echo chamber' that repeats their lies until they become the truth.

[in_cog_ni_to]

20. No, I don't "want" a Revolution,

but can see one happening. A Hegemony society cannot survive. Roman Empire? British Empire? I would hope we would have other countries more than willing to participate to stop the giant America from taking control of them and the world? Help the PEOPLE take back the government?

The only way we can use the law they abuse against them is to get control away from them. Unless BBV is made to have paper ballots, I suggest we prepare for what's to come because they WILL steal the election. :shrug: Like Madhound said...he/she thought perhaps the military has been weakened/pissed off enough by the shrubs cuts that perhaps they will lay down their arms or join the fight against the fascist regime?

Underground Railroad/American Revoulution? :shrug:

Here's a couple of old articles I saved. Interesting read.


<snip>Whatever the military outcome of the U.S. war effort, the Iraqi people will never accept going back to the days of colonialism. Nor will the peoples of the Middle East ever accept such a counter-revolutionary overturn. The minds that have conceived this plan--the Cheneys, the Rumsfelds and the Wolfowitzes--have been shaped in an era of retreat and setback for the socialist camp and the world liberation struggle, beginning with Reagan.

Their entire program is predicated upon the assumption that the masses of people, in the United States and abroad, will passively accept this new world order without struggle and resistance. But all of history shows that repression and reaction breed resistance, rebellion and revolution. When reaction is applied worldwide, resistance is bound to grow worldwide<snip>

http://www.iacenter.org/iraq_historyturn.htm

Does anyone think internment camps are a possibility? Here's an article about martial law being set in place. It's an old article, but speaks to this thread. :(

<snip>Foundations are in place for martial law in the US
By Ritt Goldstein
July 27 2002





Recent pronouncements from the Bush Administration and national security initiatives put in place in the Reagan era could see internment camps and martial law in the United States.

When president Ronald Reagan was considering invading Nicaragua he issued a series of executive orders that provided the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) with broad powers in the event of a "crisis" such as "violent and widespread internal dissent or national opposition against a US military invasion abroad". They were never used.

But with the looming possibility of a US invasion of Iraq, recent pronouncements by President George Bush's domestic security chief, Tom Ridge, and an official with the US Civil Rights Commission should fire concerns that these powers could be employed or a de facto drift into their deployment could occur.<snip>

[Tellurian]

23. Yes, I believe internment camps are an OPTION..

more than a possiblilty...if in fact, Bush is elected or appointed this time around.

The PNAC plan!

What makes me angry is the assumption our Congress is so corrupt and in deep with Bush and his minions....we have no voice at all through the representaion we elect year in and year out!

[in_cog_ni_to]

25. I have an old article/site? about internment camps.

I'll see if I can dig it up. It's very frightening, but at the time I first read it, I thought..."Conspiracy Theory." Now, I wonder? I'll see if I can find it and post a link.

[in_cog_ni_to]

26. Here's a site about "American Concentration Camps."

First a Truthout.org Jonathan Turley article about it.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/08.15B.ashcr.camps.htm

Camps for Citizens: Ashcroft's Hellish Vision
Attorney general shows himself as a menace to liberty.
By Jonathan Turley
Jonathan Turley is a professor of constitutional law at George Washington University.
Los Angeles Times

Wednesday, 14 August, 2002

<snip>Atty. Gen. John Ashcroft's announced desire for camps for U.S. citizens he deems to be "enemy combatants" has moved him from merely being a political embarrassment to being a constitutional menace.

Ashcroft's plan, disclosed last week but little publicized, would allow him to order the indefinite incarceration of U.S. citizens and summarily strip them of their constitutional rights and access to the courts by declaring them enemy combatants.

The proposed camp plan should trigger immediate congressional hearings and reconsideration of Ashcroft's fitness for this important office. Whereas Al Qaeda is a threat to the lives of our citizens, Ashcroft has become a clear and present threat to our liberties.

The camp plan was forged at an optimistic time for Ashcroft's small inner circle, which has been carefully watching two test cases to see whether this vision could become a reality. The cases of Jose Padilla and Yaser Esam Hamdi will determine whether U.S. citizens can be held without charges and subject to the arbitrary and unchecked authority of the government<snip>

AMERICAN CONCENTRATION CAMPS

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/camps.htm

[Tellurian]

32. Thanks, Cog..

Believe it or not, shortly after Bushes appointment, I received the info you posted via e-mail from a Conservative friend of mine...as a friendly warning...not to make waves...because he would be unable to help. He has distanced himself from me ever since, although we are cordial to each other, when we meet F2F..

<just a note>...when the DU went down last year my posting log was somewhere around 800-900- many of my posts were lost due to the crash..I did receive the notice to e-mail the old number but never did...ho-hum!

[sujan]

48. 'the assumption our Congress is so corrupt

and in deep with Bush and his minions....we have no voice at all through the representaion we elect year in and year out!'

Prove it otherwise.

[Tellurian]

38. bump n/t

n/t

[mmonk]

4. Great post

Getting to a crux of a big problem of what is happening.

[Q]

6. Jefferson speaks from the grave:

"Unless the mass retains sufficient control over those entrusted with the powers of their government, these will be perverted to their own oppression, and to the perpetuation of wealth and individuals and their families selected for the trust. Whether our Constitution has hit on the exact degree of control necessary, is yet under experiment." --Thomas Jefferson to M. van der Kemp, 1812. ME 13:136

"I sincerely wish... we could see our government so secured as to depend less on the character of the person in whose hands it is trusted. Bad men will sometimes get in and with such an immense patronage may make great progress in corrupting the public mind and principles. This is a subject with which wisdom and patriotism should be occupied." --Thomas Jefferson to Moses Robinson, 1801. ME 10:237

"An elective despotism was not the government we fought for, but one which should not only be founded on true free principles, but in which the powers of government should be so divided and balanced among general bodies of magistracy, as that no one could transcend their legal limits without being effectually checked and restrained by the others." --Thomas Jefferson

[Tatiana]

8. This is a civil war.

I really do believe that. And I also believe the way to successfully win back our country from this totalitarian regime is to attack the other side from within.

Make no mistake... Bush is no "conservative." We need to encourage and appeal to conservatives, maybe at a grass-roots level, to take their own party back.

We need to bring back the Fairness Doctrine. We need to take back our media, for we will never be able to effectively disseminate the truth and our opposing viewpoint unless the media is out of the hands of the RWers and back in the hands of the people.

[Q]

10. The media portrays Bush* as a 'conservative'...

...and that's all his followers need to know. Real conservatives have been marginalized to the point where they no longer have any kind of voice in government.

- The RWing echo chamber has characterized the 'fairness doctrine' as a tool of repression of the 'liberal media'. There are too few liberals and 'real' conservatives left in government to mount an effort to bring it back.

- In fact...Bush* favorite Limbaugh was instrumental in getting the fairness doctine thrown out.

- But you're right: this IS a continuation of the civil war. So far...guns are optional.

[Tellurian]

12. Our government has turned into an "Anarchy."!!

I Posted this elsewhere last night..

The gist of it is..our government has become and anarchy..or lawless as you've mentioned.."Q"-


" "In a free government the security for civil rights must be the same as that for religious rights. It consists in the one case in the multiplicity of interests, and in the other in the multiplicity of sects. The degree of security in both cases will depend on the number of interests and sects; and this may be presumed to depend on the extent of country and number of people comprehended under the same government. This view of the subject must particularly recommend a proper federal system to all the sincere and considerate friends of republican government, since it shows that in exact proportion as the territory of the Union may be formed into more circumscribed Confederacies, or States oppressive combinations of a majority will be facilitated: the best security, under the republican forms, for the rights of every class of citizens, will be diminished: and consequently the stability and independence of some member of the government, the only other security, must be proportionately increased. Justice is the end of government. It is the end of civil society. It ever has been and ever will be pursued until it be obtained, or until liberty be lost in the pursuit. In a society under the forms of which the stronger faction can readily unite and oppress the weaker, anarchy may as truly be said to reign as in a state of nature, where the weaker individual is not secured against the violence of the stronger; and as, in the latter state, even the stronger individuals are prompted, by the uncertainty of their condition, to submit to a government which may protect the weak as well as themselves; so, in the former state, will the more powerful factions or parties be gradually induced, by a like motive, to wish for a government which will protect all parties, the weaker as well as the more powerful."

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/federal/fed51.htm

[Q]

13. Yes...some 'get it'...

...but many are left wondering about what's going on and what THEY can do about it. America has NEVER been confronted with THIS type of internal danger before Bush*

- I hate to say it...but I believe that Americans may need another four years of Bush* before they fully understand what they've lost.

[Tellurian]

14. We Can't afford another 4 yrs...

You know it...and I know it..

The enslavement will be complete by then-

[Q]

15. We know it...

...but there are millions of Americans who still think GWB* is a great leader and humble, God-fearing man who only has their best interests at heart.

- They will give Bush* enough votes for another 'close' election that can be manipulated to give him a 'win'. Keep in mind they're quite capable of doing this because the media considers them above the law.

[Tatiana]

16. The media is KEY.

We will never be able to take back this country unless we take back the media.

1 - There must be a concerted effort to expose the highly politicized nature of Faux News. Harry Reid did this during the pointless RW 30-hour marathon when he read the memo being sent out by Bill Frist's staffer:

"It is important to double efforts to get your boss to S-230 on time ... Fox News Channel is really excited about this marathon and Brit Hume at 6 would love to open with all our 51 senators walking onto the floor -- the producer wants to know will we walk in exactly at 6:02 when the show starts so they get it live to open Brit Hume's show? Or if not, can we give them an exact time for the walk-in start?"

This was an important step. No longer can we make the excuse that Fox News is a source of factual information. We need to attack Fox as viciously as the RW attacked such "liberal" media outlets as CBS or The New York Times.

2 - We need people who share Democratic principles and have MONEY to get on the media's corporate boards. It's a sad commentary that money buys influence and power, but in the short-term, it's the fastest way we can turn this ship around. We need someone like Ted Turner was at CNN. We need to be on the boards of Disney and GE. We can't just confront our politicians or the hired hands of the RW. We need to confront and change policy at the corporate level because the corporations are the ones who are dictating policy to the neo-cons at the Defense Department, at the FCC, at the EPA, with respect to our country's energy policy.

[Q]

17. The media shouldn't 'belong' to anyone...

...and in a 'Democracy' must be a neutral force that gives the citizens enough information to vote with 'informed consent'. It's not informed consent when the media hides or distorts the truth so that the leadership isn't held accountable to the people.

- Our first step as a nation must be to recognize that our government is corrupt and then do something about it.

[Tatiana]

18. By "take back the media" I don't mean the media should be LW

or Democratic. I just believe it must be taken away from RW control so that it can be the fourth estate it should be.

I think the majority of this nation realizes our government is corrupt. The people are either:

a) too lazy to do anything about it
b) don't care because it hasn't affected THEM yet (in which case, 4 more years of Dumbya would do those people a world of good)
or c) feels powerless to do anything about it

Which leads to another point... Whoever is the Democratic candidate MUST be able to empower the masses to do their own part to rid this nation of the rampant corruption of the current administration.

[Q]

11. We're reliving history....

...where citizens of a nation remain quiet as long as government corruption and warmongering doesn't directly touch their lives.

- Germany experienced the same thing. The German people felt powerless to stop the Nazi party's grab for power. Once the NP had absolute power...it was too late.

- We're now a country that 'accepts' the fact that the government can investigate and exonerate itself. Traditional checks and balances and coequal branches of government are a thing of the past.

[Tyler Durden]

22. We do not always agree, Q...

But we are 100% on the same page with this one.

Control of the sources of information bring the doom of Republics.

The only thing we differ on is the armed insurrection part: I don't advocate it, but I live less than 30 miles from the Headquarters of the Michigan Militia. These people and their attitudes are mainstream enough here that the MM sponsors a 2 mile stretch of the interstate in Port Huron for cleaning the shoulder of the road.

These people have paramilitary training, extreme ideology, and GUNS. They are following the lead of the Minnesota Militia, and starting to practice Small Cell organization and tactics.

If the Bush Bund can't take down Iraq in an ideal situation (desert) with advanced weapons and sattelite imaging, how are they going to fare HERE, where the Militias can melt into the woods, and they have learned to live off the land.

I'm going to Canada where my family will be safer.

[Tellurian]

24. O/T Anyone watching "K Street"?

They've gone off on tangential issues making sleeze the focus of the show..

Very disappointing...when they had a chance to be the White Knights building a following and most of all fending leadership ideas in the form of docudrama!

[Q]

27. It was someone else talking about Guns and Revolution...

...so we do indeed agree that an 'armed insurrection' isn't the way.

- No..this will have to be a revolution of activism and peaceful resistance.

- It WOULD help if the Democrats would be more forceful in making sure the laws of the land apply equally to everyone. I understand this is difficult to do...considering the 'other side' literally controls the media and the debate.

[Tyler Durden]

35. Actually we do agree...

Armed insurrection not only won't work, but it would be suicidal for the entire civilized world. The problem is that the Mich. Militia (think buddies of McVeigh) not only think it might work, but they think it's NECESSARY.

[Q]

19. A relevant article: Tell Us The Truth!

Published on Monday, November 17, 2003 by The Nation

Tell Us The Truth!

by John Nichols

"The truth is the truth. Not just the government's truth or the church's truth or the truth that won't upset the advertisers and stockholders but THE TRUTH and the TRUTH is that when the very institutions that we depend on to inform us and guide us omit any part of the truth for any reason whatsoever then that is called a lie." -- Steve Earle

Furious with the Bush Administration's deceptions, and even more furious with the failure of major media outlets to expose and challenge those deceits, thousands of Americans are chanting, "Tell us the truth!" Their cries are being met not with the stony silence of Washington but with a protest chorus that mixes rock, rap, folk, soul and alt-country into a call to arms.

The Tell Us the Truth Tour has set the sentiments of millions of angry Americans to music, and taken the show on the road. Traveling by bus across the eastern United States on a tour that began November 7 in Madison, Wisconsin and will finish November 24 in Washington, some of the most innovative artists in American music -- and a comrade from Britain -- are raising a ruckus about the Bush administration's push for greater media consolidation and for international economic policies that are devastating the economies of both the U.S. and its trading partners.

"Media consolidation needs smashing and globalization needs unmasking," says Tom Morello, the guitarist for Rage Against the Machine and Audioslave, who has joined the tour along with keyboardist Mike Mills of REM, British folk rocker Billy Bragg, genre-bending singer-songwriter Steve Earle, rapper Boots Riley of The Coup and Lester Chambers of the Chambers Brothers. They'll be joined at a number of later shows by singer Jill Sobule and comedian Janeane Garofalo, and perhaps by other artists. Morello, who is performing as The Nightwatchman on the tour, sums up the sentiments of the musicians who have donated their time to the effort by explaining that, "When presidents and politicians lie, it is the job of the press to expose those lies. When the press fails, the lie becomes the law. The point of the Tell Us the Truth Tour is to help others make connections, and to show them that activism can change the policies of this country." - http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1117-13.htm

[Tellurian]

21. Thanks Q...

Hasn't Gore recently purchased a radio or tv station?

[Q]

28. Gore is working with investors to buy a 'network'...

...but the purchase is being held up.

- I've heard of no plans for 'Gore's Station' to actually 'speak truth to power' and tell the whole truth about corruption in government. But at least it may be a good start in that direction.

[buddhamama]

29. enabled by a populace

that is weak of character and conviction.
sniveling, whiney, self absorbed spoiled brats.

they've eaten the bait, hookline and sinker
they sit in their cozy middle class living rooms watching FOX
shaking with terror that the bogey man is gonna get `em

trying by beyond hope to live up to the propaganda that someday, they too, will rise above and make it big; as long as they work hard and play by the rules.
but first we must clean up the riff-raff so they won't be stealing what you got.

once we've done that, we can all live fat, dumb and happy forever and ever.

[ShaneGR]

53. q

hi

[JanMichael]

30. Brother you should have seen the scene at the "Tell Us the Truth"...

...concert.

Between almost revolutionary performances and a naturally pumped up crowd I was almost ready anything.

I learned that I can't repeat "Four Dead in Ohio" more than a few times before I get a little crazy (and a little choked up...).

[Beam Me Up]

31. Great Thread! ::: Global Criminal Culture

My perspective is that the BFEE is where they are because they are the 'meenst muderfkrs' on the block.

I agree, we need a revolution. But it needs to be a REAL revolution. That can't be won with guns and bullets or guns and bullets alone. It needs to come from within ourselves, first of all. We need a new vision of what is humanly possible for us as individuals, for our society and for the whole of humanity on this planet. We need a plan that will deal directly with the GENUINE threats (peak oil, for example, environmental catastrophe for another) that are directly ahead of us. Such a revolution may take generations to complete but it must begin here, now. I mean that quite literally. RIGHT HERE RIGHT NOW.

[Tellurian]

33. If Bush and Cheney are Impeached; it can be done.

I'd rather see our militery marching into the WH rather than aiming and shooting American protestors.

[camero]

34. What we need

is a people's war a.k.a. Gandhi and MLK. Millions in the streets saying that Bush and Co must go. Hey, it worked for Russia.

[Tellurian]

37. Absolutely Not!

what you propose is a fools errand..

It's WAY TOO late for that.

That Rule of Law must prevail!

[Q]

40. I agree...we must use the law...

...to bring everything back into balance. I've always believed in activism...but when the very rule of law is being subverted and the free press is complicit...activists and protestors can too easily be labeled as the enemy of the state.

- The Lawmakers in DC have a responsibility and duty to enforce the laws. We must convince them to do the jobs they were 'hired' to do.

[camero]

46. and how do you propose we do that

We have one of two ways:

a) bring out the guns
b) non-violent protest

The most we have had protesting the last 30 years is just a couple hundred thousand. They would have a hard time branding a million or two as "enemies of the state".

[tom_paine]

36. Imperial Amerika is no longer a Democratic Republic

It is on it's way to becoming a Totalitarian-Orwellian Oligarchic Empire.

But as one of the few Free Americans left on Imperial Shores, I will not bow before an Emperor!

[Q]

39. But few want to hear about it...

...as it's easier to pretend that we're not the bad guys or that Bush* is simply a temporary thing that will go away with the changing of the guard.

- But what if the guard is corrupt?

[tom_paine]

41. That's a whole 'nother question, Q

And denial is perhaps one of the most powerful human motivations (or de-motivations).

Truthfully (and I hope I am wrong and I am NEVER giving up while even the slightest hope remains) I think that, even if Clark or Dean wins, the Old American Republic's days are numbered.

A Republic cannot exist without a Free Press, a people cannot be so passive and retain their Liberty...and on and on and on.

Hell, to be quite honest (and selfish, I suppose), a Dean or Clark victory might push the horror back a decade or two.

But think realistically (ignoring for the moment the scope and magnitude of corruption of the Democrats, which IMHO can't even hold the tiniest candle to Bushevik corruption) about the multi-billion-dollar, multi-faceted assault on the Old American Republic financed by the Busheviks and their allies. Think about what they did in Texas, Colorado, California (Emperor Ahnold, providing them with such good cover for their Imperial Dynasty, is a foregone conclusion now). Think of the Party-Loyal Right-Wing Sub-Media and it's Orwellian abilities to launder lies into "conventional wisdom" and obfuscate factually demonstrable truths. Think of all the Bushevik-owned Touchscreen "Voting" machines being installed around the Empire already with no end in sight, in spite of Bev and all her good work...

Even if a Democratic candidate wins, none of these Imperial Infrastructures are going anywhere.

[Q]

44. Clinton's impeachment showed that...

...the 'imperial infrastructures' can work outside the law and Constitution if it suits their purpose. Gore's exile proves that the 'imperial media' can make or destroy a candidate and keep them from office even if they win.

- The Bush* presidency COULDN'T have happened without the direct assistance of the American media. He would have never made it through the 2000 campaign without the help of the free press to cover up his horrible past and record.

- I believe that many Democrats are 'passive' because they're taking a que from the party leadership. That is...there must not be anything seriously wrong if the Dem leadership isn't up in arms about the Bush* government and their 'doctrine' of preemptive wars and destruction of the 'American Way'.

[Cleita]

42. I agree and it's time to retool our country

with a new Constitution, new and more modern concepts of governance and new elections for new "servants of the people" not kings.

[Q]

43. Of interest:

"We must make clear to the Germans that the wrong for which their fallen leaders are on trial is not that they lost the war, but that they started it. And we must not allow ourselves to be drawn into a trial of the causes of the war, for our position is that no grievances or policies will justify resort to aggressive war. It is utterly renounced and condemned as an instrument of policy." ---Robert L. Jackson, Chief U.S. Prosecutor at the Nuremberg Tribunals, 13-Mar-03

[Tellurian]

45. Would that statement be...

too long to be emblazoned as the Front Page headline of the NYT?

<swoon>

[Q]

47. I'm not sure we need a 'new' Constitution...

...but we must elect a government willing to abide by it. The Founders had the right idea...but with all the different factions wanting their say in the document...made it too ambigious in some cases when it comes to deciding legal issues.

- But again...a free country MUST HAVE a free press to enable citizens to vote by 'informed consent'. An ignorant citizenry votes personality over substance every time.

[Tellurian]

49. agreed...

an excellent choice of words...

"An ignorant citizenry votes personality over substance every time."

[Q]

50. Americans can't be told the truth about Bush*...

...or they wouldn't vote for him. Some Democrats have tried...but they're ignored and called 'partisan'. So it's up to the corporate media...who doesn't want a real Democrat in office because they'll spend the national treasure on people instead of bombs and tax cuts for the richest among us.

- The founders thought the idea of a free press was absolutely essential in a Democracy. How otherwise could voters be informed enough about their government to choose the right leadership? Bush* was never qualified to be president and the media knew it. That's why they created an IMAGE for him.

- But it seems that ignorance is bliss in America. They don't even seem to care when they KNOW their government and free press is lying to them.

[Tellurian]

51. Q...one more thing...

Is Soros a "Good Thing for us?

I think he will be supporting Dean all the way.

[Q]

54. Soros could be a 'good thing'...

...no matter which candidate he supports. The RWing Machine is financed by the likes of Scaife and Murdoch. They fund everything from 'think-tanks' to various media outlets.

- We could use the kind of money Soros has and seems willing to give to fund like projects for the left.

[Tellurian]

55. Thanks...

now if he can keep his backside protected well enough...

hmmmm...

[dawgman]

56. I am a leftist but shouldn't the goal be an impartial press that will

tell the truth and will let the people decide what's right for themselves? The problem is that people don't vote because the see no candidates that speak for them, and if any do speak for the common (for not like, GW) they are marginalized. Give someone outside the corporate machine and people would vote for them (that's not Dean or Kerry or Clark.)

[Tellurian]

52. My post #51 has been overlooked..

I guess.

Maybe not?