Why the gay civil unions won't hurt Dean

[jeter]

It's very simple and i'm surprised no one has thought of it. Because Cheney's daughter(s) are gay and are currently living in a domestic partnership.

It's very hard to attack someone for supporting the same thing the vice President and President's running mate also supports (or at least condones, since she was given a job with the government).

I really see it as a non-issue.

[slinkerwink]

1. plus, if the stupid right-wing tries to do so...

Dean's more than prepared----it was Rove who helped back the right-wing backlash in Vermont, and despite having a Republican and an Independent run against him, Dean still won the vote.

[sable302]

3. ahhh, so much for Cheney

but the PACs will have a field day with it. Just wait and see.

edit: should be a reply to the original post.

[TLM]

7. They will try, but to those for whom this is a red meat issue...

the ones who will vote no on Dean because of civil unions, are not generaly going to vote dem in the first place.

So no votes are really being lost.

[slinkerwink]

12. yes, but Dean's campaign can play a video of Dick Cheney

saying "It's a matter that should be left up to the states on civil unions" with the voice of Dean talking afterwards "that's also my same position, to offer gays and lesbians hospital visitation rights, inheritance rights, etc...."

[PissedOffPollyana]

26. The only problem with Dean's position...

... is that it may very well lead to a Constitutional amendment banning gay marriage, even the pale substitute of "civil unions". If even one more state passes legislation to ban gay marriage of any stripe, the door is open.

While it may not hurt him with the anybody-but-Bush crowd, it may soften his support among those who could really rally around him and I think will hurt him in a general election. I can honestly say that I am disappointed in his luke-warm response to something that should be a central issue in the campaign for the Dem candidate... equal rights for everyone, not just those who 'do it' like we do.

Throwing it to State's Rights is a cop out and anyone who tries to assert otherwise just digs the Dean mystique a little too much to admit that Dr. Dean is dead wrong on this one. If he was really true to the values of the Democratic party, he would support marriage for gay & lesbian Americans and champion real equality. If we choose him as a party, we are slapping the GLBT community right in the face and spitting on everything we are supposed to stand for.

Well, that's my opinion anyway...

[Sagan]

2. All Dean (or anyone) has to say is this..

"I don't think this is any of the government's business. The government should be less intrusive into our lives, not more so."

Couple that with some shots at ASSKROFT and you're golden.

Easy money.

[HFishbine]

5. Not bad

for a Texan.

[jeter]

9. Another thing...

...I really don't think the gay issue has the same effect as race on working class people. No matter how hard the GOP tries. Because with the racial issue, there's always an economic demention to the debate.

...black people...special rights...taking white jobs

...immigrants...special rights...taking American jobs.

etc.

That formula doesn't work the same way with gays. Will Bush just go on a rampage over gays?

I see it as the easiest thing to defend against:

First, we bring back Bob Jones University, and claim that every time Bush is in a political jam he becomes prejudice.

Second, we accuse Bush of breaking his promise of being "a uniter, not a divider."

Third, we bring up the fact that Cheney's daughters are gay and currently living in a domestic partnership themselves. Accuse the GOP of a double-standard.

I don't see how the GOP will argue out of that.

Dean can always say, what he said today. "I don't support gay marriage." "But, I support equal rights...blah, blah, blah."

What are the GOP going to say..."no. Gays shouldn't have equal rights." Jesus, my Mom who is a staunch Catholic and opposes gay marriage even believes that gays shouldn't be discriminated against.

[caledesi]

27. Very well said Jeter! nt

[Jacobin]

14. You nailed it.

It will play well among the normal people in the south and midwest. We will never get the support of the fundies anyway. fork em.

[sangh0]

4. naive

You don't really think Bush* and/or Cheney are going to attack gays, do you? "Independent" interest groups will raise the issue through fundraising letters which wont register in the media. It's done to rile up their base. It will draw the Freeper-types to the polls, but it won't bring one vote to a Dem in response because the Dem voters won't be receiving those fundraising letters.

There are many ways to skin a cat. It's naive and limited to think that the only way to attack is to have Bush* and Cheney leading the charge.

[HFishbine]

8. That's why

we need people like you to counter -- to go door-to-door and convince your neighbors to vote for the right candidate. You'll do that, won't you?

[sangh0]

15. I already do

but there aren't many Freeper types in NYC where I live. People here are pretty cool on the whole range of gay-related issues.

But thanks for completely ignoring my point. I appreciate how your suggestion does nothing to counter the problem I pointed out.

[HFishbine]

19. Read for comprehension

I did offer a counter for the problem you pointed out. I even used the word "counter."

[sangh0]

23. I do

and just because you used the work "counter", that doesn't mean it will actually "counter" anything.

As I said before, I live in NYC, one of the most gay-freindly cities in the world. It won't be my neighbors who get the fundraising letters claiming that gays are attacking religion by demanding that they be allowed to get married. It'll be the people in the less gay-freindly areas.

[sable302]

10. absolutely

Fundies will make it their number one issue, imho. They will say the Dean wants 'special rights' for gays that us ordinary folk don't have. Therefore bush/Cheney will be freed from even mentioning the word gay.

[dsc]

11. Gays and their supporters can read

Some of us can do so very well. We also get fundraising letters about candidates who support our position. Many of us would crawl maked across broken glass treated with bleach to vote for the candidate who codified civil unions.

[sangh0]

17. Gays and their supporters already vote Dem

As I said, this issue will not get any votes for Dems. It will get votes for Repukes, and repel some Dem votes. The people who vote Dem over these issues will vote Dem regardless of whether the Repukes make an issue of it.

[Cha]

30. Then why is there a "Log Cabin Republicans"? n/t

[jeter]

13. Those "independent interest groups"

Will ultimately be connected to Bush. Just like that Willie Horton ad was always tied to Bush Sr.

We can still go on a rampage against Bush. That was the problem with Dukakis. He never fought back.

[sangh0]

20. They will be connected by Dems and ignored by the homophobes

just as the Freepers didn't care that Bush* was connected to Willie Horton. And while I agree with you about Dukakis, that has nothing to do with the issue I posted about - this issue will get votes for Repukes, and not for Dems.

[ieoeja]

21. Agreed, however I still LIKE this issue.

Current political discourse has revolved around rightwing issues. On abortion, flag burning, religion in government, etc at best nothing changes. At worst, we lose our rights. It would be nice to see us arguing about EXPANDING civil rights for a change. I don't particularly want to lose the election over it. But then again, the Right browbeated us with their agenda long before they started rolling us in the elections.

They apparently believed they had to actually argue their position before they would convince everyone to accept it. Where do they get such weird notions?

[sangh0]

24. And I don't blame you

In fact, I think you are absolutely right. We should be EXPANDING civil rights, and that is exactly how we should be playing this issue.

[Cocoa]

6. I agree

not so much about Cheney's daughters for me, but just because I think society has progressed and that a republican attempt to use it will backfire.

Also the plummeting credibility of moralizers like Bill Bennett, Rush Limbaugh and Dr. Laura will contribute.

[jeter]

18. Sang, you didn't read one of my responses

The gay issue doesn't play well in middle America the way racial issues did. Because there is no economic element to it. Only gay bashing.

Christ, in 1992, the GOP tried to smear the Clinton with being "gay lovers" and giving in to the "gay lobby" over his plan to allow gays to serve in the military.

It was roundly criticized.

I agree that the GOP will try to make an issue of it. But they will fail. We have to be ready for it. In fact, I think it may benefit us more than hurt us - especially with independent voters. Who are pro-gay rights (to an extent).

If the GOP try this, I think it will hurt them more than us.

[sangh0]

22. My apologies

I think I caught up to it, but I'll respond to this one too.

The GOP didn't lose any votes over gays in the military. The people that condemned them for it were Democrats. My point here is not that gay-bashing is popular. My point is that when done "correctly" (ie. stealthily) it gets votes for the GOP, and nothing for the DNC.

In addition, this won't be portrayed as "Gays are evil!" It's going to be "Gays are OK, but they shouldn't be allowed to tell the religious what to believe in"

[KaraokeKarlton]

16. All Dean has to do is talk about the gay man on the PA plane on 9/11

If he was patriotic enough and brave enough to fight terrorists and prevent that plane from hitting the White House he was surely patriotic, brave and valuable enough as a human being to have the same rights as everyone else.

When Dean uses this it silences opposition immediately and frames the issue as just being the right thing to do, period. No one can argue with that without looking like an idiot.

[caledesi]

28. Or the story he tells about the 80-year old Vet...

This one always grabs them. After one of his speeches where he didn't even talk about civil unions, an 80-year guy walks up to Dean and says "Thank you for passing civil unions." HD says, "oh, do you have a son or daughter that's gay?" The Vet says "No Governor, I am gay and I served in the military on the beaches of Normandy and a lot of my friends didn't come home." I thinks he says something about being "in the closet" most of his life. But then Dean unloads on the crowd with a bellowing "Well, if a brave man like comes back to the US, shouldn't he be entitled to the same rights as that we do?"

Crowd goes wild. If you get to see the vid of this, watch it (he used this story in many of his stump speeches.

[realFedUp]

25. and actually Dean/Vermont have made it safe for other Dem

candidates to address. No fumbled responses from
any of the candidates because Dean had already
addressed it so many times during his speeches.

[jeter]

29. Yes, that's key

He should hit the subject head on. He shouldn't seem like he is trying to hide something. That will kill him. If he addresses it in a reasonable and thoughtful way I don't see how it does hurt him.