Opinions on difference between USA and W. Europe

[cryofan]

I have recently had the opportunity to do some research on the difference between America and Western Europe. What prompted the research was some experiences I had read and been told by acquaintances.

I am starting to believe that the USA has its priorities completely misplaced. We should raise our taxes and concentrate more on health care and welfare of our citizens.

To help spread the word about how the lives of ordinary Europeans and Americans differ I am looking for examples on the Net of writings from people who have living in both areas who are willing to compare the two.

Here is a posting from Usenet from someone currently living in the Netherlands who has lived in the USA:


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I find all this nationalism very disturbing....every country is screwed up
and judging people so bitterly because they're from somewhere else is
terrible.

I am American, lived in the US for 30 years and I don't like it, so I moved
to Europe for a bit of a saner, saferm slower life, but I wish to say that
there are reasons the USA is so crazy that I don't think Europeans can
appreciate.

Although there is a lot of opportunity in America, it is an incredible
struggle for most people to live there. Americans get no vacation time (2
weeks if they're lucky), are worked incredibly hard and competitively and
have little if no job security (layoffs/firings are very common), are not
given adequate governmental support if they are unemployed or sick, and
live in a constant, pulsating 24/7 society surrounded by loud, big
over-the-top advertising and a constant bombardment of useless
information/input. Nervous breakdowns and depression/anxiety is almost
common place. At my last job there, EVERYONE in the office was taking
Prozac to help cope with their stressful lives.

Hence, everyone lives with a strange, sort of unspoken tension and fear,
which results in an incredibly aggressive and violent society. America's
main problem, imho, is greed. You only have what you earn and if you don't
earn it, you don't deserve it, hence if you don't work 40 hrs a week, 50
weeks a year, you don't deserve/earn decent health care. There is not
enough compassion to help others, almost dog-eat-dog.

I think the absolute biggest problem is that most Americans themselves
don't realize there are better systems. They are raised/brainwashed that
America is the greatest power in the world, everyone wants to be there, etc
etc. They don't question the lack of social services that most other
"western" countries take for granted. If, instead of reprimanding them, we
could try to educate them more, maybe they could start demanding better
services from their governments.

Some half-baked ideas of mine:

1) Guns should be illegal....the right to bear arms in the 21st century??
pathetic....
2) Advertising, religion and politics should not mix....
3) People should undergo a mandatory class on the issues before they are
allowed to vote (most people have a Nation Enquirer knowledge of the world
affairs that their votes affect)
4) Health care should be everyones right, not a privelage
5) Taxes should be higher to support programs/care for sick, unemployed,
elderly, etc etc
6) Employees should be given more free time so they don't "go postal"


Anyhow, not to sound like a rapper or anything, but let's educate instead
of criticize :-)




>>>>>>>>>>>>>END QUOTED TEXT]

Wow, this dude nailed it! He has described very what I am talking about: the presence of universal healthcare, easily accessible welfare unemployment has taken the strain off of the working Europeans. The immediate pressure to "compete or die" that we have here in America for so many people who live paycheck to paycheck does not exist in western Europe, at least not nearly to the extent it does here.

Comments?

[La_Serpiente]

1. I totally concur with you

and I would like if we had the European way of life here. I really don't believe that Americans think there are other, greater systems of government out there.

Hopefully, the Democratic nominee can paint a system where we can be like Europe. Maybe that will tempt them. :-)

[Yupster]

2. I lived in Austria for a year

my junior year in college. I lived with a family as an exchange student. I lived in one of their smaller state capitals, Bregenz, capital of Vorarlberg province. This was now over 20 years ago. I lived within a few miles of Germany, so spent lots of time there too.

To me the most interesting note was that life was not too different between us and them. Their families lived about like ours and had about what we had.

The biggest differences were from my noticings ...

1. The society moved around a lot less than ours does. Pretty much every family had lived in the same village and even the same homes for many generations. The family that owned the carpet store and the one who owned the book store had owned it forever.

2. There did not appear to be a lot of very poor people. This is probably a result of # 1 as much as anything.

3. There were no minorities in society. The only minorities seen were "Guestworkers" mostly Turks and Yugoslavs who were not really in society. They were pretty much on their own. I never saw them at any social functions with the Germans other than as "help." I'd be interested to go back and see if this has changed.

If you think about everyone in Austria being German, this is rather weird as Austria not too long ago ruled a mighty empire full of Hungarians, Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Ruthenes, Slovenes, Serbs, Croats, and Muslims. There was much less of an imprint of this diversity than I would have expected to see.

That was my view from a long time ago. It may be all different today.

[Kellanved]

14. hmm It is not completely different

It's difficult to answer, as Germany isn't that homogenous. I'd say things are pretty much unchanged in rural areas.
In the cities it's a little different (again: depends on the city) now.

#1: Berliners are world champions in moving; statistically people in the Berlin-Brandenburg region move once in 8 years. Most High-School graduates in the "new" states (pre-academic High-School; translates to Bachelor's degree) leave the eastern states in search for a job.

#2: The Social Net is still in place and limits the amount of visible poverty. People not covered by social security (illegal immigrants) can be very poor. The official statistic says that one in seven children grows up in relative poverty (every 4th in cities).
Homeless people exist (although it isn't quite clear why ).

#3 Minorities are underrepresented. Very few people of Turkish descent have risen to the upper tier of the society (only a handful house members, etc; even though the overall social mobility is better than in the US). They are hit especially hard by unemployment and poverty; few get higher education (despite it being free). A new immigration law addressing some of those problems has been blocked by the conservative upper house (actually by a partisan decision of the Supreme Court).
However the minorities are very visible and no longer considered "Guest workers" (jus solis has been introduced). The fact that Germany has (and needs) in fact immigration is understood by a growing percentage of the population.


Can't say anything about Austria.

[theboss]

3. Difference is stability versus freedom

The main difference, I see, between Western Europe and the US is the ability to move up (or down) social classes. Western Europe seems to place its emphasis on stability. Hence hire taxes and more social programs. This means that you are not going to suffer the lows of American life but you are not going to enjoy the highs either. It's really a question of what you value more. And also, whether you feel stability and freedom are mutually exclusive concepts.

[cryofan]

4. Our "lottery culture" imposed upon us by elite mass media

which is controlled by the upper income classes and the corporations and business lobbies. And of course if we raised taxes in order to achieve the European laid-back and secure and healthier lifestyle, guess whose fortunes and status would be at risk?

So the question is, was your philosophy born of your own natural instincts and predilections and knowledge, or was it put there by mass media propaganda-news stories that tell you what and how to think by claiming that everyone thinks that way?

We all think we are going to get rich. Well, guess what? Rich can only happen to a minority, by definition. I think most Europeans have figured that the house always wins. But Americans have not figured that one out yet.....

[theboss]

5. Well . . . .

I'm an Ivy League grad. My grandfather who just died was a high school drop-out with illiterate immigrant parents. I believe that the US is still largely a meritocracy based on the fact I am not working in a coal mine.

[cryofan]

6. You should be so lucky

The coal miners make more money than you do, I would wager...

[theboss]

7. Um, no

But even if they did, I would rather sit in an office and chat with you on the Internet than die in a mine collapse.

[Frederic Bastiat]

9. Is this before or after taxes?

<I>The coal miners make more money than you do, I would wager...</i>

[camero]

12. That is true

Since there are only so many resources to go around, you can't have rich people without poor people. Someone will be left behind.

[JackRiddler]

23. this is bullshit, sorry

I've lived in Germany for 14 years and virtually every adult person I have met had moved up in the economic sense relative to their parents. The system entered the same global crisis a few years ago as in other countries, but as for the "highs" of American life, they are just as present here as in the States. More so, the average (west) German lives like the American upper middle class, with less hours to work.

It's also bullshit that the taxes here are significantly higher than in the States. Take off the health plan and it's about the same. The difference is that the wad is not blown on the war industry and paying the interest on past wars. People do not pay more on average for healthcare, either; it's socialized but provides the same level of care on the whole as in the States - for everyone.

[Frederic Bastiat]

8. I prefer the middle - Canada eom

[Paschall]

10. Comparisons of this kind are always difficult

And expatriat Americans' experiences--if long and deep enough to fully comprehend and somewhat assimilate European culture--are usually limited to only one country.

From over two decades of living in France, I would agree and disagree with a few of the things said above.

The French educational system is very much a meritocracy. If a kid can get a high school diploma, his college education is virtually free (comparatively speaking to the US; there are tuition charges, but they are very minimal, a few $100 per semester, even for highly specialized training like medicine and engineering). On the other hand, obtaining a high school diploma is not easy, and kids get tracked into specialized programs very early. In fact, high school diplomas are already specialized. You can't graduate with a speciality in literature and expect to get into engineering college if you change your mind later... without a lot of hard work.

Geographic stability is extremely important. Employees are very reluctant to relocate for jobs, and this stability has enabled many local traditions (like those 300+ cheeses produced in France) to survive. I think the emphasis on preserving communities with long traditions is one thing that in itself tends to reduce violence and stress in French society.

But that is not to say French society isn't stressed. In fact, I think we are the world's largest consumers of anti-depressants and tranquilizers.

I appreciate very much certain concrete aspects of French legislation: Advertising for prescription drugs is prohibited. Doctors, lawyers, and others in such professions are also prohibited from advertising. (I hate the sleazy ads from ambulance chasing lawyers in the US.) Medical care is a right; hospitals cannot refuse you treatment because you are unable to pay. Medical costs are strictly controlled and totally capped and/or free if you fall into a low income bracket. Our Good Samaritan laws guarantee that medical care is not only a right, but an obligation. Our data privacy is protected. Our private lives are protected; no personal information about anyone--including facts on a chief executive who gets "serviced" in his office--can be made public unless authorized by the individual himself. That means political candidates' religion, marital status, etc. stay out of the news. French politicians very rarely campaign with their wives (Chirac does so, but his wife is also a politician, mayor of a small town in the provinces). Employers cannot inquire into such personal aspects of your life: marital status, etc. The period of job contracts is also controlled; you cannot be hired repeatedly for consecutive short-term contracts by a company--at a certain point you have to be offered an open-ended (lifetime) contract. Etc., etc., etc.

As for taxes, despite all our social services, only half the French pay income tax. Most of the country's budget is raised from sales tax (which is very inequitable, but not likely to change in the near future). Social programs such as unemployment insurance and public health care are funded by employees and employers. The employer share is considered too high (by employers, of course), and this is often considered a hinderance on hiring.

Well, I could go on, but perhaps others will give us some input.

You might want to see what relevant information you can find on the internet. I know there are sites designed for Americans planning to move to Europe that explain the social systems. Might be a good place to start. But, as I say, every country is different.

[cryofan]

15. re: the stress in French society?

Can you or anyone else explain the stress in French society? Here in America, unless you are a welfare mother or disabled, you are basically on your own until you reach 65 (soon to be 67, if the elite and the upper class have their way). But in France, besides free medixcal care for anyone who needs, what causes of stress are there? My understanding is that welfare is more available to everyone there, not just welfare mothers. Now THAT would be a big stress reliever for me--if I cannot find a job, I could rely upon French welfare to get a roof over my head and food on the table. Can you speak to this or other causes of stress in France/Western Europe?

[theboss]

17. Just being French . . .

Look at me; I am giving a cigarette to a baby. You can do nothing about it.

[Paschall]

25. Not sure I can answer that question

In regard to our high usage of anti-depressants, I think that can in part be attributed to abuse by prescribers who are "under pressure" from major French drug companies.

On the other hand, as the extreme individualism of American culture generates stress, so, too, the "collectivism" of French society, which in many ways is more conservative than the US, also generates stress. As one American student in France remarked rather naively, "The French are all free to become Frenchmen." There's social pressure to conform, even if only in terms of dress. However, the French as individuals, in their private lives and their attitudes, are generally much freer than Americans... at least that has been my experience.

It's also worth noting that French schoolchildren are faced with a lot of pressure. Not much is done to actually teach study habits; students are simply expected to perform. In fact, teacher training is a relatively new field in France. I was among a small group of students in one of the first experimental teacher training programs at the Université de Paris. This lack of training also puts teachers under stress, because aside from their expertise in their own fields, they don't go into the classroom armed with teaching methods. Until recently, those skills were acquired only on the job.

I think statistics show--in terms of wealth generated--that the French are more productive on the job than Americans. But I don't know if that accounts for more job stress or not.

Regarding welfare, you should understand that there are few social programs in France comparable to American welfare, that target only the poor, homeless or otherwise disadvantaged. The system covers the whole population, regardless of income status. The universality of these programs is one of their central principles. For example, all French parents receive monthly payments for every child living at home (until the age of 25 I think). They also receive "back to school bonuses" to help cover the cost of school supplies. I could give you other examples.

Unfortunately, if you are homeless and unemployed in France, trying to get a roof over your head and keep food on your table are not all that easy. But the social safety net includes other things, like legislation that prevents the electric company from turning off your juice during winter, and laws that give tenants a lot of clout when faced with eviction.

Anyway, hope that helps. :-)

[Cleita]

16. Just a note from the past.

<<I appreciate very much certain concrete aspects of French legislation: Advertising for prescription drugs is prohibited. Doctors, lawyers, and others in such professions are also prohibited from advertising. (I hate the sleazy ads from ambulance chasing lawyers in the US.)>>

There was a time advertising by those entities you mentioned weren't allowed in the US either. I do miss those days.

[not systems]

11. half-baked ideas...

1) Guns should be illegal....the right to bear arms in the 21st century??
pathetic....

I disagree strongly. Goverment monopoly on force is a
encouragement to tyranny. I believe that if citizens
were not armed police gangs like the Ramparts gang in
LA or the riders in Oakland could operate with impunity.
The tyrants need not be federal but everyday local
robbers with badges.

2) Advertising, religion and politics should not mix....

A law regulating this would be a masive suppression of
free speach. "Should not" is fine but this is not enforceable
without widespread censorship. Who would be the censors?
They maybe exactly the people you oppose. A increase in
state power for ones own aims can be later turned against
it original purpose.

3) People should undergo a mandatory class on the issues before they
are allowed to vote (most people have a Nation Enquirer knowledge of
the world affairs that their votes affect)

This would be a disaster. I would make it very easy to
suppress the votes of the poor and people with low levels
of formal education. I am 100% sure this would be used to
suppress black votes in the south. In the past a voter
test was common and used for this purpose. If this test
was any thing other than a basic literacy test it would
easy becoume ideologically tainted.

4) Health care should be everyones right, not a privelage

Agree 100%.

5) Taxes should be higher to support programs/care for sick,
unemployed, elderly, etc etc

Agree but I would put children and education ahead of the
unemployed and elderly. Generaly agree with the idea.

6) Employees should be given more free time so they don't "go postal"

Agree 100% I believe you are correct about americans being
caught up in survival and that it negativly effects our social
and political climate.

[info being]

13. Mostly agree with your response...

except I don't like the "Advertising as Free Speech" argument. Corporations are not individuals and do not have an inherent right to free speech. Advertising does affect behavior, and when it obvioiusly goes against the public good, it should be regulated.

[not systems]

21. Advertising as Free Speech

I don't think I was making the "Advertising as Free Speech" arguement.

I was speaking of the phrase "Advertising, religion and politics should not mix."

I am in agreement that free speech rights are individual rights
not corporate rights.

This is tricky around issues of political and religious speach
because churches and political pressure groups are often corporations.

[Scott Lee]

18. The trendy Euro-bashing goes nowhere with me.

My family lived in Germany for 11 years. During that time I had lots of opportunities to go visit with them and cruise around Europe. It was not only eye opening, it has made me a better person in almost every way.

I found Europeans in general to be wonderful people. They are well educated, intellectually curious, gracious and multilingual. There definitely was a feeling that they are more concerned with the benefit for a society rather than a single individual or just themselves. One example of this was the custom of restaurant seating when I was in Deutschland. If I ever went out alone, and a party of two or more had an empty seat at their table, it was not only expected that a lone diner (even if a stranger) be sat there, it was welcomed. And the tables always interracted with me and I left with more friends than when I had arrived.

It's fashionable these days to bash "Euro-trash" (nice little sobriquette bandied about by the rightards). Especially if they are French. But behind alot of it is anger and hate at what Europe in general holds as higher social priorities. We could learn tons from our friends across the sea if we could just get over ourselves.

But learning is not what the Right does with any ease, so I'm not holding my breath.

[cryofan]

19. it's not just "the right"--it's talk show hosts like Leno, too!

I say it is a campaign to demonize the european "social democracies" and break them economically, just like the cold war propaganda eventually broke the Soviet Union.

[Kellanved]

20. interesting

Could you give me an example?
For some reason NBC does no longer show new Leno and Conan (just reruns) shows here.

[JackRiddler]

24. except...

in this struggle the Europeans have a good shot of breaking the American economy. Unfortunately, Americans are much more ready to be the total-worker fodder in this "war," so who knows.

[BonjourUSA]

22. Some months ago a French poll didn't surprise me

This one questioned the French people about their style of life preferences. And the answers at two questions seem exactly to be a draft of the French society.

1) Is your personal aim to be rich ? only 7% said "yes".

2) Between your life quality and spending much time at work for earning much more money, what do you choose ? 68% answered that they choose their quality of life.

[Paschall]

26. Or to put it more succinctly:

The French don't live to work, but work to live.

The French don't eat to live, but live to eat. ;-)

:hi:

[BonjourUSA]

27. I completely share this philosophy !!!

The life is very, very short !

Et que personne ne vienne nous faire chier !

[Paschall]

28. D'accord à 100 pour cent!

Les amerloques en Amérique! ;-)

(Je ne pouvais pas m'empêcher d'emprunter ta deuxième phrase.)