What I realised today: The GOP are terrified of Dean

[jeter]

I was watching MSNBC and they had Pat Buchanan and Bill Press on to talk about yesterdays ruling by MA Supreme Court.

Buchanan said, "I was hanging out with Karl Rove (last night) and we drank 27 bottles of champaign...this will sink the Dean candidacy."

That was strange to me. I thought they wanted to run against Dean. Now they are happy that this will "sink the Dean candidacy."

I found it all kind of amusing to be honest. But that is when it occured to me. They are really scared of Dean. Now they see this a potential weapon to use against him. I still don't think it'll work. Read my post from yesterday. But it does give you a glimpse on their mindset. They are afraid of Dean's message on the war and the economy. They now hope that this will sink him. Curious.

[slinkerwink]

1. they're clutching at straws while their ship is sinking

;-)

[jeter]

2. Exactly.

I didn't realise that they were so obsessed with Dean. I still stand by that Dean is the Democratic Reagan.

You see, in 1979-1980, it was seen as political suicide to be against abortion. Only radicals were against it, it was said. The ERA was popular then too. But Reagan came out against the ERA and completely against abortion. Yet, he won the Presidency.

These types of issues never play out.

[Emboldened Chimp]

3. They're realizing Dean's got the message

And the one with the message wins. They also know that people are sick to death of the Chimp; people want change. Add Clark as VP into the mix and * is done.

[jeter]

4. That's right...

...he has the message and the strategy that will beat them. They are afraid of him.

[Lorien]

29. A little message, but mostly mojo

voters go with the one that has the most "Elvis"; that was the reason both Reagan and Clinton had two terms, voters just "liked" them better. Now, generally speaking, people only really come out in droves to vote when they aren't happy with the way things are going, so that might work in our favor. I don't think policies will matter to much of anyone outside of political chat rooms.I'm sorry to say that I think it's going to come down to "how content are you with the direction of the country"? and "who would you rather drink a beer with"?

[slinkerwink]

5. lol, 27 bottles of champaigne?

no wonder why Karl Rove's so fat.

[Scott Lee]

40. Well Pat's been known to hang out in Pubs alot

and drink his lunch out of a paper bag....not that I'm hinting at any Irish stereotype (being born of Scots, who also are fond of the water of life!).

[IronLionZion]

6. Haha, they should be terrified

Dean has such a strong cult following that only grows with time. He has been exposing Bush's hypocrisy and lies from the start. If he wins, there better be some unified support so he can destroy Bush.

[slinkerwink]

7. cult following? I beg to differ.....

it's 500,000 supporters....

[rucky]

24. Bigger than the Bagwan

just kidding.

If we consider a movement wanting to take their country back from special interests a cult, then I'd hate to see the leader we end up with.

[CMT]

8. they put up a front of wanting Dean

but actually they don't really know what they will get if they get Dean. I think they fear the unknown. They think Dean may be another McGovern type man of straw but they also see his fund-raising prowess, his strong organization, political savvy, and grass roots army of volunteers which are reved up and I honestly think they would rather have someone who is known rather than an unknown quantity to go up against.

[slinkerwink]

9. yep....that's what I think also.

The fear of the unknown can be very strong---especially with Rethugs who like predictability. Dean doesn't fit any boxes they've set out for him. First he was McGovern, now he was Goldwater, etc.

[jeter]

12. You know what...

...I think the Dean/Clark ticket is the worst case scenerio for the GOP. Clark never had a chance to win the nomination. But his declaration of being a Dem puts him in first place for the second spot.

Dean (has executive experience) Clark (has foreign policy experience). Dean appeals to the left of the party. Clark to the right. Dean is moderate enough to appeal to the moderates/rights among Democrats. Clark is left-wing enough to appeal to the liberals. Dean is from the northeast. Clark is from the south.

They both oppose and support virtually the same things.

This ticket will be the strongest. Anyway, you look at it. It'll unite the Democratic Party in a way that hasn't been true in a long time.

I think Kerry will endorse Clark when he loses NH. I think Braun will endorse Dean. I have a suspicion that Lieberman will endorse Dean as well. Don't know why, just a hunch. It'll come down to Dean - Clark in the end. But Clark just started too late. He can't make up what Dean has built. Which goes to show the sad state of the Democratic Party organization.

Clark will make it okay to be for Dean. The DLC will be for a Dean/Clark ticket. The Greens will be happy that the Dems were willing to put up someone who was willing to address their issues.

It's good anyway you look at it.

[Emboldened Chimp]

14. I concur

Remember the closed door meeting between the two when Clark announced? I believe they were talking about this very possibility. I think they talked about being the other's VP, which is why they're kid gloves when it comes to attacking on another.

[slinkerwink]

15. yep, I saw Lieberman defend Dean at the AARP forum

so your hunch might be right.

[Emboldened Chimp]

17. I don't think Lieberman will endorse Dean

He'll stick it out for as long as he can and probably offer no endorsement. Gephardt will definitely endorse Dean because of all the union support he's getting. The others will fall in line as well, just not Holy Joe.

[progressiverealist]

23. why does Clark have no chance?

that seems unsupportable to me.

[Emboldened Chimp]

11. That's because they thought it was going to be Kerry

Kerry was the front runner at the start, so they gave their props to Dean because they thought he'd be a push-over. Now that Dean has a huge following, they're realizing that they screwed up. They completely mis-underestimated Dean. Just wait: if he gets the nod (which I think he will), Dean's support is going to explode. He'll have millions signed up when all is said and done.

[jeter]

16. manco, it'll be like a friggen freighttrain

That's why I always compare him to Reagan. Not on philosophy. But on how everyone grossly underestimated Reagan (compared him to Goldwater) and he had this thing that Washington officials couldn't understand. Dean has that too.

The problem is that the Republicans are fighting the last war. Dean is fighting a new war.

Dean appeals to Independant voters like nobody's buisness. I don't see how you can stop him.

[Emboldened Chimp]

18. I've got a good vibe about that ticket

I've been thinking about it since Clark got in. The same thing keeps popping to mind: Dean/Clark will kill Bush/Whoever. I think the republicans overestimate how utterly sick of * many Americans are. He's a broken record with his mantra of tax cuts and war. Most people don't want perpetual war and a government you could drown in a tub.

[JackSwift]

10. 27 bottles? Did they get it on? I don't get it.

How drunk would Pat Buchanan need to be to show his man love for Karl Rove and vice versa? 'Bout 27 bottles.

[Emboldened Chimp]

13. Maybe Chimp was there to help them out?

:shrug:

[jpgray]

19. These "the GOP is afraid" statements always sound ridiculous to me

So what's the image? All the Republican party leaders meet in some masonic temple, wearing ritualistic robes, and then when the name of *insert candidate name* is invoked they all cower in terror? Please. Our candidates are easy enough targets since they can't fight back, so the pundits enjoy tweaking them.

[progressiverealist]

20. my thoughts on Dean... every Repug I know wants to face him!

I was initially a Dean supporter but now I can't decide. On one hand I love that Dean talks straight, doesn't seem to pander, and that he has experience in the executive branch of government. He's charismatic, which counts for a lot, and he is uncompromising in his criticism of Bush. I agree with most all of the policy statements he has made.

On the other hand, every last conservative I have spoken to on the subject says they want to face Dean, to the point that several are going to vote for him in the (Wisconsin) primary. I'd dismiss this as Rove disinformation if it was coming from ANC or Faux, etc... but this is from everyday folks I know.

In the end, I'm an ABBer. I think Dean *can* win but I think Clark may be the better choice, from an ABB perspective. I could see a scenario where Dean wins the popular vote by taking dem-leaning states like NY, CA, MASS, etc by large margins, but loses the electoral vote because he gets trounced in the south and narrowly loses swing states (of which I would consider Wisconsin an example).

If Dean gets the nomination, I'm 100% for him. For now, though, I fear he may not be our best shot at ousting the squatter.

[slinkerwink]

21. Dean doesn't need to win the South, and he's polling well in

those swing states.

[progressiverealist]

26. well... partially true IMO

If you look at the last election, Gore "lost because he got trounced in the south (including his home TN) and lost WV. Gore won Penn, WI, MI, IA, all of which are definately in play in '04.

I think it unwise- and again this is only one person's opinion- to expect the dems to carry every one of those states again. So, we need to pick off a few in the south- not the whole south but a few. We could get, for example, AR (with Clark), or FL, or LA. I think Dean's an easy winner in WV. But while many like Dean in WI, for example, this is no longer the progressive state it was when I was a kid. We're becoming very divided, almost 50% repug.

[Kahuna]

33. Exactly! You cannot assume that we'll pick up every blue

state this cycle. That's stupid to say the least. We do need a plan that goes for a couple of southern and a couple of western stares.

[jeter]

25. Who cares about your GOP friend

Every Democrat wanted to face Reagan in 1980. What happened? Reagan became President.

So let them get their wish. That's my opinion.

Why would they want to face a guy who can unite the Democratic Party and bring along so many independents?

Only a retard would want that. Because politics is about self-interest. You should've read my post here a couple of days ago called "Why George W. Bush will lose the next election."

You can't run away from numbers. They don't lie. People vote what is in their best interests and Democrats and independents are thinking the same way, whereas the GOP are going in a totally different direction.

Dean appeals to independents.

[progressiverealist]

28. I did read your post and it was outstanding

but these pugs are not retards. They are pugs becuase they either buy the "self-reliance" bullshit, or else they have a bit of a selfish streak IMO.

But they're not all retards. Just an observation. To me Dean is fascinating.

[Guaranteed]

37. You know what, the Republicans don't even know him.

Unless someone has paid a good amount of attention to Dean's campaign, they don't know what they're going up against. Ask them if they even know about his stance on gun control.

[Scott Lee]

44. It's a poker face, dude. The GOP know they can't best this guy

And they are putting up a "bring him on" front.

You aren't gonna fall for that are you?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

22. Everything is a potential weapon to use against him

I think you're jumping to the conclusion that they're thinking: "Well we really didn't have anything to use against Dean BEFORE the gay ruling because Dean's war and economic message were so fucking scary and damaging to Bush."
One does not prove the other. They are all potential issues and points of debate. I'm afraid you're simply jumping to conclusions which are based in an emotional response, not a logical one.

[jeter]

27. The problem NYerfromMA is...

...and i'm not accusing you of this, that many people opposed Dean on the basis that he couldn't win. Now that it looks that he'll do just as well as everyone else, people have nothing to say about him.

So they hold on to the myth that Dean can't win.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

30. Many people oppose Dean because they're SURE he can't win

And winning the Democratic primary is no guarantee of winning anything beyond that. And beyond polls, you have to dig into each candidate's closet of skeletons looking for the really damaging stuff which will come out in the campaign. And that is the dynamic which is NOT reflected in any poll, but which the polticial insiders pay heed to in assessing chances.

[RetroLounge]

34. Many people oppose Kerry because they're SURE he can't win

And winning the Democratic primary is no guarantee of winning anything beyond that. And beyond polls, you have to dig into each candidate's closet of skeletons looking for the really damaging stuff which will come out in the campaign. And that is the dynamic which is NOT reflected in any poll, but which the polticial insiders pay heed to in assessing chances.

[RetroLounge]

36. Projecting again?

"I'm afraid you're simply jumping to conclusions which are based in an emotional response, not a logical one."

[Julien Sorel]

31. I suspect they are talking about the general election.

They are about as terrified of Dean as a Rotweiller would be of a French poodle.

Think of it differently: would being pro-civil unions sink Dean in the primary?

[RetroLounge]

35. I suspect they are talking about the general election.

They are about as terrified of Clark as a Rotweiller would be of a French poodle.

Think of it differently: would being pro-civil unions sink Clark in the primary?

[Julien Sorel]

42. From the Deanite Handbook on Argumentation (subtitled

'A Guide To Debating For the Completely Helpless'):

When presented with an argument you are intellectually unable to handle, or simply the truth, it is generally best to reply in one of four ways: Lie (preferred, it's what Howard does); Attack the other person (also a favorite of Howard); Change the subject; Repeat what they have said back to them. Notice that none of these is an actual argument; however it is extremely important to the rest of the cult that you at least appear to have something to say, in order to keep morale as high as possible. Above all, avoid doing anything that would encourage anyone to start thinking for themselves!!!! This cannot be stressed enough, as people thinking for themselves could lead to de-programming.

[Kahuna]

32. Dean against bush. They're right!

They do not fear Dean right now. That could change if he gets the nomination though. Remember the adage.. be careful what you wish for...

It's like this. While they probably at this point are hoping for a Dean nomination..Dean would also be the Dem they would least likely see prevail in the general nomination. So, they have to wonder if a scenario is in play that any of the top tier candidates could defeat bush, Dean is the one they would least likely like to see defeat bush. Of course it would be poetic justice if Dean got the nomination and then won the election.

[formactv]

38. It is simple

Intelligence and sincerity. Imagine Dean and Bush debating. Dean is for real. He is honest, and so he knows where he stands. He wouldn't have to think as hard,and he has far more mental equipment (internal).

[ACPS65]

39. Yeah, right.

Dean can't win a single southern state, and the Republicans know it. I know DU is far left, but sheesh....gotta step outside the box.

[_NorCal_D_]

41. Nonsense.

On more than one occasion, Republicans have stated that they want Dean to become the nominee, not because they are terrified of him, but because he will be easily defeated.

[Julien Sorel]

43. Actually, I think they are terrified *for* him.

They are terrified he won't win the nomination.

[andym]

45. I don't understand their reasoning

I don't understand their reasoning. Why would the MA
ruling affect Dean's ability to win the nomination?

If anything, it makes his own civil union stance seem reasonable, if not a bit moderate. Democrats, especially progressive Democrats like fair-minded social policy. It just doesn't make sense if they're
talking about the nomination.

It seem more possible that they're talking about the general election.
Here they can try to scare moderates/independents by tying the Democratic candidate into being "anti-family." I think all of the candidates are potentially vulnerable, and perhaps Dean is more so given the Vt civil unions law. That is what they probably mean.

Their public gloating is worrisome, why are they so overconfident?

In any case, the only defense here is going to be that our candidate stands up for what is right. I think an appeal to the fairmindedness of Americans is the only way to proceed, no matter what the polls say.

[teryang]

46. They are terrified of Dean

Dean is rich, he is one of them, the privileged social register types who really run things. What's worse is that he is a doctor.

With all the medicare fraudulent plans shot full of more holes than a health insurance policy, he may just mobilize some of opinion makers among the health care providers in this country to lay down the law to the drug companies and insurance plans.

It's one thing when a Dukakis or Kucinich runs for office, but Dean is a serious social and economic threat, similar to that of the John and Robert Kennedy. If he succeeds in mobilizing significant portions of the upper castes against the current regime, he will attract plenty of horsepower, as the well-to-do see the handwriting on the wall. Being a progressive, instead of a dyed in the wool obscurantist, mouthing meaningless platitudes will become fashionable again. The reactionary turning back the clock process will be at an end.

[AmericanDem]

47. yea, they are shaking in their boots..

:eyes:

[poskonig]

48. Clockwork responses from the same people.

The Dean partisans claim the Republicans fear them, while the other partisans quickly deny the claim and boast of how the GOP fears their candidate and prefers Dean. Republicans accordingly claim they fear nobody.

Yawn.

Meanwhile, Bush's polling numbers continue to sink.