citibank customer service in India now

[drool_n_yank]

Maybe just me but more and more when I call any company service number I get someone in another country. I know tech support jobs have been outsourced for a few years now but these days its seems like everything is. I wish I knew of an alternative to citibank to use in good conscious .... Tonight I got a customer service person in India, she refused to tell me where she was . I asked for a supervisor and got transfered back to Texas and she confirmed I had been talking to a person in India. I got AT&T person in Canada recently and it goes on and on , is there a list somewhere of companies that keep jobs in the states and dont participate in globlization .

[liberalmuse]

1. I knew it!

I was going to ask the last time I got a call from them. I'm going to pay off my card and just use my other one from now on. I believe they're based in CA, but you never know.

[sujan]

2. nothing wrong with that

more jobs for the citizens of India.

[redqueen]

3. Citizens of India deserve better

Sorry, but I know someone who traveled there recently and told me how horrid the living conditions are for the majority of the 'citizens'.

That's the ONLY reason these corporations move all over the globe -- to exploit slave labor.

Why is it so hard for people to imagine that once all workers have living wages, that all economies will benefit? (Consumer dollar is 2/3 of the driving force of the economy!)

[SahaleArm]

6. Have you been to India or Asia?

Cost of living is much cheaper than it is in the US. $10000 dollars is about 500,000 rupees. That goes a long way and white collar jobs aren't the same as manufacturing.

[redqueen]

14. I'm sure it's cheaper

But I'm also pretty sure these people aren't getting a living wage.

I also know firsthand that Indians that come here mostly want to stay.

[sujan]

17. getting a living wage?

they're getting more than living wage.

[SahaleArm]

20. Ignorance is bliss.

I heard from a friend of a friend of a friend that all Indians live in shantytowns :eyes:

[redqueen]

25. That's very rude.

Click here, if you want to know one of the reasons why India has such cheap labor.

Or did you think it was some magic economic secret?

Hint: ANYWHERE there is cheap labor, you will find similar reasons. ANYWHERE.

[redqueen]

21. Yes

The CALL CENTER people are.

Care to educate us as to the people who make rugs?

Or the people who clean houses?

[sujan]

29. hmm

I have no disagreement about the people working in the garment industry and about people who clean houses? how's that the result of outsourcing jobs?

Lets stay on topic. India is poor, I am not denying that. The employment of Indians at the call centre which pays them good salaries is obviously a good thing.

[redqueen]

31. Follow this.

The reason the outsourced jobs are outsourced there is because the labor is cheaper.

The reason the labor is cheaper is because the ENTIRE spectrum of wages is forced down by things like child labor and other factors.

If the LOWEST were raised up to living-wage status, the WHOLE spectrum of wages would rise accordingly, hence the hemorrhage of jobs to third world countries would stop.

[sujan]

37. first of

labor is cheap because people have been poor.

what is a living wage? How much? You decide.

When people do not have basic necessities to sustain themselves to begin with, I do not believe they will complain about the slight opportunities that will allow them to survive.

The outsourcing of jobs will not drive the wage down because it is at rock bottom. And for people who didn't have jobs to begin with, they aren't complaining.

[htuttle]

41. Enjoy it while it lasts (which may be for quite some time...or not)

However, take a look at the Corporate America's first experiment with outsourcing, Mexico.

While for a time, business was booming, and employment was good (as were wages, locally speaking), now that the initial duty-free status has expired, they are finding that many of those maquiladora factories are now moving to Asia and elsewhere.

Race to the Bottom, Second Leg: Decline of the Maquiladora
http://www.globalpolicy.org/nations/sovereign/statehood/exportpz/2002/0429race.htm

So I hope that people in India use this time when the jobs pay well to get themselves organized, because it won't last. No doubt, this might drive the jobs to Vietnam, or China or maybe Africa, however, so we all have our work cut out for ourselves. It won't be done until workers can organize everywhere.

[SahaleArm]

44. Then your only option is Protectionism.

Billateral trade agreements are a farce.

[htuttle]

49. Well, I agree

However, I think that unless workers unionize, corporations in general will be able to play us all against each other.

I agree that protectionism is ultimately self-defeating, and globalization, on the balance, can be a very good thing. We are only one planet, after all.

But since we can't count on government looking out for our interests, and we certainly can't count on corporations doing so, and all the international organizations are mostly powerless, we have to protect our own interests as workers (meaning, simply, 'not the owners, but the employees') -- that means unions.

All I can see doing on a government level that would matter would be to restrict certain trade benefits (like most favored nation status) to countries that follow certain trade practices, the right of workers to collectively bargain being one of them. It wouldn't mean that wages would equalize all over the planet (not for a long, long while, anyway), but it would start the process.

Other than that, I'm not sure government can do anything about globalization, other than to not make it worse (by not catering to the whims of it's corporate patrons, for example).

[sujan]

45. yes

Unionizing would be a good idea but people who will get the jobs wont look for that long term effect. Mainly because of the opportunity of survival and of getting a good pay. I can't blame them because they do not have a choice at that moment. When they do realize, it may have been too late.

Either way, there is not much choice for them to begin with.

[htuttle]

50. I don't blame them either

I'm talking about 5-10 years down the line, when the corporations start making noise about moving to China (assuming present conditions remain).

What is China becoming, after all, but a huge labor camp? Once they go high-tech, India is going to see real problems with loss of these jobs. I'm not sure there is anything that can be done at that point either. But one thing I do know is that it's got to be done by us, the workers, because nobody else will, and it has to ultimately be global in nature, or it won't work.

Might be instructive (years from now, once everyone is feeling a little better, due to a full belly and roof over their heads) to take a look at what corporations did NOT move out of the US at that point (and could have), and figure out what's kept them there.

Then we can talk about how the hell we can unionize China...

[Trek234]

51. I notice you drop entirely

my question regarding working conditions. Not surprising, as I doubt you could possibly justify it.

I'm with Dennis Kucinich on this one - the US has no business exporting ANY jobs abroad UNLESS those nations agree to provide for acceptable protections for workers. US corporations have NO business exploiting people as they do. They can damn well afford to pay a good wage, and they can sure as hell insure the people they employ are being treated as they should be.

"When people do not have basic necessities to sustain themselves to begin with, I do not believe they will complain about the slight opportunities that will allow them to survive. "

Oh I see. So let's take a person who otherwise would not have enough to sustain themselves. We give them a 16 hour work day - 7 days a week - no benefits - bare minimum amount of money to live (key point as this justifys it all apparently) - place them in fear of loosing that job so they "aren't complaining" (and so long as they aren't complaining no problem) - have them in hazardous working conditions in which they may loose vision, hearing, may become ill, may loose body parts in hazardous machines - employ children as old as 5 - etc. And of course if they DARE "complain" about the generous oppurtunities they are given to survive they can look forward to loosing it all and dieing. And of course if they complain a little too loudly/well they can look forward to being found floating in a river.

These are the working conditions some people in the world face at the hands of American (and other western) corporations. But what the hell - "poor is poor".

[sujan]

54. what the hell?

Oh I see. So let's take a person who otherwise would not have enough to sustain themselves. We give them a 16 hour work day - 7 days a week - no benefits - bare minimum amount of money to live (key point as this justifys it all apparently) - place them in fear of loosing that job so they "aren't complaining" (and so long as they aren't complaining no problem) - have them in hazardous working conditions in which they may loose vision, hearing, may become ill, may loose body parts in hazardous machines - employ children as old as 5 - etc. And of course if they DARE "complain" about the generous oppurtunities they are given to survive they can look forward to loosing it all and dieing. And of course if they complain a little too loudly/well they can look forward to being found floating in a river.

> Ok, the premise is those people were/would have been unemployed without the American jobs. So, If I am unemployed and cannot sustain myself,I would welcome any job opportunit. Enough with your bullshit about the work conditions, worst of the worst working conditions are found in Indian companies. Take that issue upto them. For one thing, Americans do not employ majority of Indians. Sure you wish to bicker about Indians not getting a good wage and bad work conditions, hell go fight the Indian companies. And be ready to give alternatives to those now unemployed. Rhetoric is good but put your mouth where the money is and give us some *real* solutions. Most of the Hi tech jobs outsourced by American companies pay very good salaries. Since, you dont see any outrage from the Indians happily employed by them but you're trying hard to invent few. Good luck.





These are the working conditions some people in the world face at the hands of American (and other western) corporations. But what the hell - "poor is poor".

>what the hell is there not to understand about that? People who are starving do not care ( and better believe this )if your company allows you to join the union or has luxurious working conditions.
Might apply in this country (since most of us are overfed anyway) but not in places like India. Good grief, buy an airline ticket, go to India and try to survive there for a year. I challenge you.

[Trek234]

59. You sure sound like a democrat

To hell with with how American business treats employees. Let me guess - you're probably one of the people here who is always first in line to jump on the "Bush family nazi slave labor" threads? Or do you have no problem with that either?

"give us some *real* solutions."

How about forbidding American business from participating in such things for one thing? We can do nothing about it as long as we continue to allow the problem on our end.

We can't control the nation of India or any other. What we CAN do, however, is lead by example. After that we can work with those nations diplomatically to, if it is so desired, bring American business to those nations. A key point of such diplomacy would involve agreements with those nations to improve working conditions in return. Not only in the American operated business, but in all work places.

"what the hell is there not to understand about that? People who are starving do not care ( and better believe this )if your company allows you to join the union or has luxurious working conditions.
Might apply in this country (since most of us are overfed anyway) but not in places like India. Good grief, buy an airline ticket, go to India and try to survive there for a year. I challenge you."

I never disputed these facts. The point is, however, we should NOT simply use the system as it is under the nazi like justification that no one will complain.

American business and American government has the power to work to improve conditions in those nations. Instead of bombing Iraq, for instance, we could have devoted our foreign policy to such a task as this.

Now please don't tell me that this isn't possible. We (and certain EU nations) have negotitated for similar things before. Environmental protections come to mind.

Hell, it could be done TODAY.

Congress could today pass legislation that said something to the effect of "starting November 2004 in conjunction with negotiations with X nation the united states shall send X number of inspectors to X US owned businesses in X nation. Any US owned business found to be in violation of <insert mutually agreed upon US/X nation regulations> regarding working conditions shall be fined X amount of dollars, and shall be prohibited from importing any and all products from that location". (draft bill here, but you get the idea)

Watch how fu**ing fast working conditions would improve.

There are COUNTLESS aditional measures that could be taken. Hell, the above example is probably one of the poorer ones available to us.

I know one thing, however - as progressives/democrats/liberals (perhaps you should look those terms up) we will get NOTHING done adopting the policy of the Republican party and sitting doing not a damn thing about it as you seem to think is the only possible solution. We have options available to us, and we should use them.

[sujan]

64. obviously

you're mad at jobs draining from this country. I can't blame you but your concerns for the working conditions of the Indians are obviously fake or misplaced because

1) you ask for a 'legislation' which
would

"starting November 2004 in conjunction with negotiations with X nation the united states shall send X number of inspectors to X US owned businesses in X nation. Any US owned business found to be in violation of <insert mutually agreed upon US/X nation regulations> regarding working conditions shall be fined X amount of dollars, and shall be prohibited from importing any and all products from that location".


2)Since most of the workers who are working in the horrendous conditions are being employed by Indian companies, how does it make any better for them by complaining about an American company that outsources jobs there?


Point 1 would keep third world countries entirely out of American picture because of the corrupt and ineffective government in those countries.

I stated that hi-tech jobs outsourced by American companies pay decent salaries to Indians. India does have safety regulations but it is upto the *Indian government* to enforce them. You dont expect the company to discipline itself, do you? Or the US to intervene? Maybe send few people from the labour department down there. Hell, the companies here wont give a penny about safety conditions here in the US if starting tommorrow OSHA inspectors were to stop investigating.

I am a progressive that's why I wont complain about Indians getting GOOD PAYING JOBS.

[Trek234]

69. Hmmm

"I wont complain about Indians getting GOOD PAYING JOBS."

At the expensive of their lives? Yea, ok.

"you're mad at jobs draining from this country. I can't blame you but your concerns for the working conditions of the Indians are obviously fake or misplaced because"

HAHAHAHA. Says the "damn the Indians. Let's not do a damn thing to even attempt to improve working conditions" ring leader.

I STRONGLY suggest you read my message again. That proposal would NOT eliminate US jobs from India. They could still be payed much lower than in the US - and thus incentive for US jobs to exist in India will still be around. It WOULD, however, provide for better WORKING CONDITIONS both at US AND, with appropriate foreign policy, INDIAN work places.

You of course ignore the part about the proposal being a DRAFT and treat it as if it has actually been worked on for more than 2 minutes. Furthermore you ignore the fact that I conceeded it was one of the poorer options available to us.

"Point 1 would keep third world countries entirely out of American picture because of the corrupt and ineffective government in those countries. "

BS. How so? It will be done ENTIRELY through AMERICAN regulation of AMERICAN business abroad. Did you miss the part about AMERICAN inspectors? It would in no way be operated by any government other than the US, and the only involvment those nations would have would be consent they would grant.

[sujan]

74. nonsensical ramblings

"I wont complain about Indians getting GOOD PAYING JOBS."

At the expensive of their lives? Yea, ok.

>> like what jobs that would be taking their lives ?

"you're mad at jobs draining from this country. I can't blame you but your concerns for the working conditions of the Indians are obviously fake or misplaced because"

HAHAHAHA. Says the "damn the Indians. Let's not do a damn thing to even attempt to improve working conditions" ring leader.

>> Yeah right, people working in call centres and Hi-tech companies getting good paying salaries are working in dire conditions, well only to you.


I STRONGLY suggest you read my message again. That proposal would NOT eliminate US jobs from India. They could still be payed much lower than in the US - and thus incentive for US jobs to exist in India will still be around. It WOULD, however, provide for better WORKING CONDITIONS both at US AND, with appropriate foreign policy, INDIAN work places.

>>Well I said, majority of people work under Indian companies, your proposal would improve conditions there? How? The rest of your talking point is just rhetoric and it will never happen. You talk as if the most of the Indian population is somehow employed by American companies and the poor working conditions is attributed to American companies, well, they're not.

[Trek234]

79. Please tell me

"like what jobs that would be taking their lives ?"

"16 hour work day - 7 days a week - no benefits - bare minimum amount of money to live (key point as this justifys it all apparently) - place them in fear of loosing that job so they "aren't complaining" (and so long as they aren't complaining no problem) - have them in hazardous working conditions in which they may loose vision, hearing, may become ill, may loose body parts in hazardous machines - employ children as old as 5 - etc."

You really consider that LIFE? A life of work, fear, and suffering?

Not surprising for a person that supports slavery.

"Well I said, majority of people work under Indian companies, your proposal would improve conditions there? How? The rest of your talking point is just rhetoric and it will never happen. You talk as if the most of the Indian population is somehow employed by American companies and the poor working conditions is attributed to American companies, well, they're not."

I gave more than one solution. One of them specifically addresses AMERICAN business abroad. The other (you know, the part about diplomatic negotions that have worked before in regards to environmental reforms and a host of other issues) solutions regard diplomacy and deals with foreign nations to improve working conditions in non-american work places.

And as far as "never happen" - there were tons of people that said that about slavery, segragation, gay rights, workers rights, etc. Guess what - it all happened despite defeatests (or collaborators) like your self who worked against it.

[sujan]

81. ha!

"16 hour work day - 7 days a week - no benefits - bare minimum amount of money to live (key point as this justifys it all apparently) - place them in fear of loosing that job so they "aren't complaining" (and so long as they aren't complaining no problem) - have them in hazardous working conditions in which they may loose vision, hearing, may become ill, may loose body parts in hazardous machines - employ children as old as 5 - etc."

>>So all that in a Hi-tech American company, sure, I believe you especially the last part.

And as far as "never happen" - there were tons of people that said that about slavery, segragation, gay rights, workers rights, etc. Guess what - it all happened despite defeatests (or collaborators) like your self who worked against it.

>>I dare you if you could do that in India, I would vote for you.

[Trek234]

90. WTF?

"So all that in a Hi-tech American company, sure, I believe you especially the last part"

When did we start talking about high tech American companys? Please show me the part of my post that reads high tech american companys. We have been talking about working conditions in nations that American corporations employ people in. Specifically NON high tech work.

[sujan]

93. wtf???

I think you're in the wrong thread. This thread does talk about Indians getting decent paying jobs at call centres, doesn't it?

[Krakowiak]

53. Those jobs are the good ones

Those workers in the call centers are getting paid quite well (about 10-20% of what U.S. workers make for the same job). The problem is that there are 1 billion people in India, and not nearly that many jobs that have been exported over.

[Trek234]

55. Think outside citibank

Maybe they are decent. But there are tons of others that aren't. Tons of clothing/shoe companies come to mind.

[SahaleArm]

56. Different issues.

Enacting a trade agreement bringing wages up to a liveable standard in India won't bring jobs back to the US. It's nice rhetoric though, seems to sell well here on DU.

[Trek234]

61. Wages and working conditions

are entirely different things.

Secondly - how would brining wages up NOT bring jobs back to the United States?

True or false - many jobs go abroad because people can be payed less than what they are in the US.

If we required US nations to pay equal wages abroad that would pay here it would only further decrease the motivation for such jobs to leave the US.

[sujan]

67. ha!

knew it.

So you want the Indians unemployed at your expense. Well, too bad.

Fine, your point is taken but dont complain about Indians who get those jobs saying how bad it is for them. Because they disagree.

[Trek234]

72. Wrong

I don't WANT US jobs out of India. If you bothered to read the post above you would see the Clarkie wanted to know how to bring jobs back to the US. I gave him a method. I said NOTHING about personally supporting it.

[SahaleArm]

75. I missed it, which reply?

This thread has too many branches.

[Trek234]

80. It's a simple tree

If you can't follow it you have no business argueing economics.

[SahaleArm]

85. I'm still waiting...

for an answer that proves you are a sentient being. Not just a protectionist-bot.

[Trek234]

88. I can't show you something that doesn't exist

I said "I said NOTHING about personally supporting it." You want me to show you something that says that? Hmmm show you something that says nothing. Right...

Why don't YOU show me something that says I personally supported it?

And of course here you are talking about how nothing is brining back US jobs that prompted the response:

"Enacting a trade agreement bringing wages up to a liveable standard in India won't bring jobs back to the US."

[SahaleArm]

91. See reply #61.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=741325#742317

[SahaleArm]

70. With equal working conditions...

and equal pay based on cost of living, labor will still move to SE Asia. It's simply cheaper to live there compared to the US or Europe. None of those jobs are coming back or ever will unless you enact tariffs or remove trade agreements (Protecionism). Cut my wage by 75% and I still live better in India than in the US.

[newyawker99]

58. Hi Krakowiak!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Trek234]

30. I thought Clark was a great economist

Perhaps it is not a trait he shares with his supporters.

Wow - you've converted dollars to rupees. And this shows what exactly?

Tell me, how many of those people working for American corporations are making amounts equal to 10,000 dollars? Or even anything CLOSE to that? Show us how many people are making decent wages.

And also please share with us how working conditions are. Tell us of all the protections they enjoy in this regard.

[SahaleArm]

40. High-tech workers are well paid and live quite well.

Same goes for call-centers and most other white collar jobs. The problems that do exist are in the textiles industry. Most exported manufacturing jobs are in China.

[sujan]

43. and the majority of the textiles industries

are owned by Indians and they are the ones who actively employ Children. For one thing, most of those children employed there are homeless, secondly, if they do have parents, their parents are likely to work alongside them.

Many DU'ers who complain donot have a grasp of the reality down there. It's harsh. It doesn't mean it has to be that way but people need to survive.

[SahaleArm]

47. Sheltered lives.

Potable water is a bigger issue than low paying jobs.

[Trek234]

62. Yea

After all having money to get decent water certainly won't help you get decent water.

[SahaleArm]

66. The Indian government has taken great steps...

to improve access to potable water in rural locations, fully subsidized and free. What are you barking about?

[Trek234]

73. Where did you mention India specifically?

You said -

"Sheltered lives.

Potable water is a bigger issue than low paying jobs"

I was speaking in generic terms. I was assuming you were as well. If you wanted to talk about potable water specifically in India you should have specifically stated India.

[SahaleArm]

77. This whole thread is about jobs moving to India.

So yes that's what I was referring to.

[Trek234]

86. Yea how wrong of me

to assume you might have been talking about other nations besides just India. REALLY wrong of me considering just a post or two above mine you said

"Same goes for call-centers and most other white collar jobs. The problems that do exist are in the textiles industry. Most exported manufacturing jobs are in China. "

Yea, just India huh? I'm glad to see you are keeping it to India.

[SahaleArm]

89. I can't argue with absurd logic.

And yes potable water is the biggest issue facing the rest of the world, not just India.

[Trek234]

63. Thank god

for the people of this nation who gave their lives fighting against people who thought like you. If everyone sat around making excuses and saying "well it's harsh but oh well" we would all be working in conditions you don't seem to have a problem with OTHER people having to deal with.

Of course you probably would be the one benfiting off of said people, or at least trying to...

Do you support slavery? At this point I can not see how you could NOT support slavery with out shooting the "logic" of your arguments to hell. By your logic the slaves of early America had it good in comparison to what they would have had if it weren't for the grand Americans at the time. They should have just kept their mouth shut.

[sujan]

65. you talk a lot but do you walk the walk

go to India, go to any textile mills, and ask the children working there to stop working because the working conditions are bad. Oh yea, BTW, be prepared to feed them when they're out of work.

You obviously do not have any *clue* how people survive.

Do I support slavery?

No.


Do you support starvation?

[Trek234]

71. Nice way to drop everything

Are you conceeding the fact that you support slavery? You didn't address it so I must assume you do.

No one told them to stop working. Get it? We can improve american operations abroad with absolutely NOTHING needed from any worker abroad. Congress could easily pass mandates on those corporations.

[sujan]

76. lol

American government passing legislations to improve work conditions in Indian companies. That's quite funny.

You dont want to stop those children from working. Does that mean you support child labour?

[Trek234]

83. <sigh>

I really wish you could read.

"American government passing legislations to improve work conditions in Indian companies. That's quite funny. "

I said at AMERICAN owned businesses in India. Usually AMERICAN OWNED means the corporation has an American base. My quote exactly "We can improve american operations abroad with absolutely NOTHING needed from any worker abroad." Notice the part about AMERICAN OPERATIONS? Please tell me how you read that to be "Indian companies".

If we were to establish agreements (i.e. a treaty) with (for example) India in the manner which was suggested before congress would have full and legal authority to impose fines or other penaltys on AMERICAN based corporations that exist in the United States.

[sujan]

87. which American company

is employing children in call centres in India making them work 16 hours a day?

We should take actions against that company in India in their court.

[Trek234]

92. Never did I specifically say call centers

Please show me where I said we would be improving working conditions specifically in call centers?

[sujan]

94. re read the thread

and state where I condoned child slavery by American companies?

[sujan]

8. you certainly haven't been to India

thats for sure.

[redqueen]

13. No, as I said, this was a friend who went.

However the descriptions were quite vivid.

Had to keep the car windows rolled up because of the smell.

Shantytowns...

and let's not even go here

[sujan]

15. and that somehow relates to

people getting a decent paying job in Citibank customer service centre? How?

[redqueen]

19. Because

The only reason these pennies-per-hour jobs are 'decent paying' is because India has a vast pool of ridiculously cheap labor.

If the lowest were raised to living-wage status, those taking the call center jobs for pennies-per-hour would be paid more, etc.

[sujan]

32. I

dont believe you have a clue at the urgency of people who're looking for a job there. They're trying to survive and NO they wont be paid in par to what the workers in the US get paid. It is simply not a good idea for an outsourcing company to do so. On the other hand of the bargain, the indians who do get employment are getting decent salaries and I donot believe they are complaining.

I dont think you're concerned for Indians, otherwise, you'd see of this as a good thing.

[redqueen]

34. That's patently absurd.

Mexico has worse poverty as a result of NAFTA. When I talk against NAFTA it is not because I don't want good things for Mexicans. It is becaue I see past the smoke and mirrors.

Wait 10 years, and if nothing changes wrt labor outsourcing, you'll find all the jobs are in China (or whatever other serfdom is available), and we'll talk again.

[sujan]

38. oh please

Mexico has had poverty since ages. Mostly attributed to poor planning and a corrupt government. NAFTA is a non issue. It is easy to spout Kucinich's talking points, but the man doesn't have a clue.

[juajen]

60. And exactly what are your qualifications and why should

your opiinion count here any more than any other poster?

[SahaleArm]

18. Complaining about the smell? Sounds like a 3rd world newbie.

Countries like India have their issues but there has been lots of change for the better. You can't undo 4000+ years of history over night. We live in the materialistic lap of luxury here in the US so it's easy to look down at poorer countries; always assuming change will happen immediately.

[redqueen]

22. Sure, dismiss the smell issue

But why ignore the shantytown issue?

[SahaleArm]

27. No ones ignoring shantytowns but preventing

living wage labor (call centers) isn't going to fix that problem.

[SahaleArm]

4. Most people don't realize that bi-lateral trade agreements

won't stop from labor moving to Asia. I could live well in India for $1000/month.

[sujan]

9. $1000/month would put you on the gold collar category

[SahaleArm]

12. I know - $20/day was luxury in Nepal.

And that included staying at a nice hotel with a running hot shower and electricity:).

[redqueen]

33. Wrong.

If those agreements enforced living wages, the wages of such employees would rise. Not to the same level as American wages, but enough that most companies wouldn't pay so much to re-locate.

[SahaleArm]

42. Kucinch plan - all trade will be between the US and EU.

Basically every other country can't match, or come to 50%, of US/EU wage averages and environmental levels. Basically it's a f*ck you to everyone else until they reach our level.

[rman]

96. less jobs for the citizens of USA

cause the USA has jobs to spare?

[chimpymustgo]

5. American Express, too. At least the night shift.

I called last night, and talked to a nice fella in India.

[Wwagsthedog]

7. So has JP Morgan Chase moved theirs to India

I've been banking with them (via Texas Commerce Bank) for over twenty years because they have never made a mistake with my account. Recently, I had occasion to talk to customer service. The person who answered had an accent I'd been familiar with in the past. When I asked, "Where in India are you?", he answered,"Bangalore". Frankly, I don't know what to do. All those jobs that used to be done by welfare mothers and others on the lowest rung of the economic ladder are gone. Sad.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

10. i may be travelling to India soon

to train call-centre managers...if that gives you any idea about the magnitude of the situation

TheProdigal

edit : I can teach...just not type

[redqueen]

16. Really?

Well please do us a favor and do write about the conditions there.

There seems to be some disagreement.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

24. if I end up going...

count on a report...

TheProdigal

[redqueen]

35. Gracias.

:D

[ProdigalJunkMail]

39. De nada

and no problemo!

TheProdigal

[SahaleArm]

52. Go by train and don't just hang out in the cities:)

And don't go by 1st class: http://www.indianrail.gov.in/

International Tourist: http://www.indianrail.gov.in/intert.html

[in_cog_ni_to]

11. Rahm Emanuel was on the House floor

today talking about AT&T laying off 3000 (?) Illinois AT&T employees and they will outsource those in India. I called my computer company...Gateway, was on hold for 20 minutes and when someone finally answered, it was a person in India. Called my cable company and was talking to someone with an Indian accent, I just ASSUMED he was in India....could have been in the states, I didn't ask.

[htuttle]

23. The whole world is going to have to unionize

Either everyone gets a living wage, or nobody gets one anywhere. Corporations will just keep moving the work around to the lowest bidder.

There's nothing else that can be done about it -- it's like the weather.


http://www.iww.org/

[redqueen]

26. Exactly.

Why has this taken so long to realize?

We figured out unions were necessary... how long ago?

[redqueen]

28. Due to the indefensible dissmissiveness my posts were met with.

Here are some examples of how India's labor is kept cheap.

http://hrw.org/editorials/2003/india013103.htm

For 15 million in India, a childhood of slavery MEANWHILE
By Zama Coursen-Neff (*)
Published in International Herald Tribune
31 January 2003

A new school for former child workers is expected to open in this town in the state of Tamil Nadu later this year. But 13-year-old Nallanayaki will not be enrolling. Since she was 9, Nallanayaki has labored 13 hours a day, six and a half or even seven days a week, in a silk weaving factory.

Nallanayaki cannot leave the silk loom until she pays the $146 loan her parents took from her employer. But her salary of less than 17 cents a day won't allow her to buy freedom until long after she is dead. Nallanayaki is a bonded laborer working in conditions of servitude. An estimated 15 million children are bonded in India.

Of course, bondage is illegal under Indian law. So is all child labor in the silk industry. The laws promise that employers will be prosecuted and children will be freed and sent to school. But the legislation is not being enforced.

In India in March, I found bonded children as young as age 7 working in the silk industry in the three states I visited, Uttar Pradesh, Tamil Nadu and Karnataka.

[SahaleArm]

46. No one defended child labor.

I can argue all day that fixing manufacturing/manual labor inequities won't stop outsourcing. You can change the subject if you wish but it doesn't answer the question w/ respect to white collar jobs.

[davidinalameda]

36. another reason to drop Citibank

but I get airline miles with my debit card damn it!

I was pretty pissed when they bought out Cal Fed, but the change-over was pretty smooth

[NNN0LHI]

48. Hate to lose jobs overseas but...

...I hold three credit cards and I get the best service from Citibank. Its obvious to me they go out of their way to please the customer. Just my opinion.

Don

[juajen]

68. I'm late here, but I just have to answer your post

Don't think you are immune. What happens when you don't have a job to pay those credit cards? This whole outsourcing deal is ludicrous. We need to outlaw outsourcing, period. It's just a way to break unions that people all over this country worked hard to form because of horrible working conditions and lousy pay. NO OUTSOURCING, period.

[sujan]

78. yea yea yea

shut up already.

[SahaleArm]

82. Amazing how many progressives are all talk

When it comes down to it, it's:

"I want mine and I don't give a damn about anyone else!"

[sujan]

84. yep

Notice how the thread started saying the call centre jobs were moving to India, obviously a good thing for the Indians.

The next minute you get people screaming bloody murder because Indian companies have bad working conditions, blame it on the American companies.

:shrug:

[Krakowiak]

57. Good list from current issue of Fortune Mag

This is a good list of some of the companies that have outsourced to India:

Land of Opportunity
Outsourced jobs are popping up in every major Indian city. Next stop: the provinces.
Area Outsourcing and IT Workers Focus Who's there
Delhi 73,000 Call centers, transaction processing, chip design, software GE, American Express, STMicroelectronics, Wipro Spectramind, Convergys, Daksh
Kolkata (Calcutta) 7,300 Consulting, software PwC, IBM, ITC Infotech,TCS
Pune 7,300 Call centers, chip design, embedded software Msource, C-Dac, Persistent Systems, Zensar
Hyderabad 36,500 Software, back office, product design HSBC, Microsoft, Satyam
Bangalore 109,500 Chip design, software, bio-informatics, call centers, IT consulting, tax processing Intel, IBM, SAP, SAS, Dell, Cisco, TI, Motorola, HP, Oracle, Yahoo, AOL, E&Y, Accenture, Wipro, Infosys, Msource
Chennai (Madras) 51,100 Software, transaction processing, animation World Bank, Standard Chartered, Cognizant, Polaris, EDS, Pentamedia Graphics
Mumbai (Bombay) 62,050 Financial research, back office, software Morgan Stanley, Citigroup, TCS, Mphasis, i-Flex Solutions

Source: NASSCOM


the full article can be found on the Fortune website (worth the read):
http://www.fortune.com/fortune/subs/article/0,15114,538786,00.html

Where Your Job Is Going
A visit to Bangalore, India, a city where tech is hot, the drinks are cold, work is plentiful, and the salaries are a lot lower than yours.
By Justin Fox


(it's subscriber only content, so I don't know if my link will take you to the full text, I had to logon)

[redqueen]

95. This entire thread

Beautifully outlines how corporations pit the poor against each other.

Nice work.


And for anyone interested in picking up the actual meaning here... it's not that progressives are against jobs going to other countires. The problem is that BECAUSE of child labor, lack of unions, etc... THAT is why the wages are so low.

IF India did something about these companies locking children to looms, to cite one glaring example, and forced these companies to pay a fair wage to even the LOWEST paid jobs, ALL wages would rise.

It's simple economics.

As wages rise, jobs are more evenly spread out, instead of having a glut to Mexico, then leaving Mexico in the lurch and moving them to China, for example.

India is just another rung on the way down in the race to the bottom.

Don't let these multinationals divide us.

We must all support living wages for all employees.

No one person decides what a living wage is in any area. That is decided by the economics of the area, and will change over time.

This thread got really nasty because the multinationals are very successful at dividing and conquering.

Don't play their game.

We're all on the same team. Remember that.