But, What if Michael Jackson is Innocent? What if he is? Have any of us

[KoKo]

thought about this? I think he's so strange and disgusting, that I have to say I might believe anything about him. Dangling his baby off the rails of the Paris Hotel was truly the worst I can imagine. I thought charges should have been brought against him for that alone. "Endangerment of a Minor," or something like that.

But, the Smarmy CA Police Chief (or some head official mouthing off),who was smirking about the charges and how they were waiting to get Jackson since CA Law had been re-written to be stronger since his first "problem" reminded me of the "smirking, smarmy" Repugs in the Senate and House who salivate from their wolf like grins when talking about Dems they want to skewer. So, I'm thinking something is really not quite on the "up and up" about this, timing wise.

Jacko upstages Bush and Rush in One Day? Can this be possible? Or, is he one more person to be the "Lacy Peterson" of the News that Isn't News to take your mind off the "Mutual Fund, Derivitive, Wall St. Scandals, the Rush Scandal, and Chimps big World Wide Disaster.

Michael the VICTIM? ON EDIT: Maybe he's just a "Howard Hughes type" freaky individual who's so "out of it" that he's "too out of it," for us to understand? Wouldn't he have been caught before...even if he did settle with the kid in the early 90's for millions? Wouldn't there have been more stuff shortly after that?

[wtmusic]

1. Hopefully he'll get the benefit of the doubt, but

the guy has never been completely upfront about his relationship with kids.

A truly pathetic individual.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

45. He took 8 year old Webster on a date to the Grammys

and went on a Carribean cruise with that kid from Home Alone. What I don't understand is why his handlers and the media companies just looked the other way? Let's see, he goes out on dates with these kids, vacations with them, and has them sleep in his bed. Sure, even if you never saw anything explicitly illegal, wouldn't this raise a whole lot of red flags?

This is my first, and last, posting about Michael Jackson.

[Karenina]

55. Never mind his "predatory predilections"

are as "secret" and "unsubstantiated" as Governor Gropenator's grabbing "tendencies." :SIGH: What a delightful distraction from the hundreds of thousands in the streets, rubber bullets, police provocateurs, tear gas, rockets red flare and bombs bursting in air...

Michael Jackson is a pedophile. If they nail him THIS time, great. OK. NEXT!

[xultar]

2. I have...then I think of Rush who's not in Jail, no one has searched

his home or done an arrest warrant for him.
What about Ken Lay, he's livin it up?
They let that guy go who killed and hacked up his neighbor.

[G_j]

4. How many children has Bush

murdered in Iraq?

[Mal]

3. In a perfect world

The press would stay informed, but only inform the public AFTER the event (has been convicted ot cleared), or upon noticing improper investigation. That would eliminate much of the 'Trial by Media' crap.

[JackSwift]

5. As an American, I presume he is innocent till a jury says otherwise

although I'll admit that is a bit out of style.

[liberalmuse]

6. Check out this link...

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/mjdec1.html

It's 4 pages of court documents that recount what happened in 1993 in the words of a 13 yr. old boy.

[hlthe2b]

22. Did you read these docs? Jackson rents "RENT A WRECK?"

Getting past that, though...
quite a bit of the language in that document seems very improbable for a 13 year old boy-- even given transcription 'liberties.'

I won't turn this post into a sexual discussion by including examples... just perhaps those who assume the first case was a "slam dunk," (no pun intended) should reconsider...

[Noordam]

23. And think about the money the family got

10-20 million....

OK it maybe 5 in real life but maybe it was cheaper to pay off than fight it.

Maybe there was no sex but a smart family that saw $$$$$$$$4

[LisaM]

7. Well, what does that nasty blonde prosecutor have to say?

Isn't she the one who decides these things?

[cthrumatrix]

8. Upstage, distraction and more.....I wish him well..but quite frankly there

seem to be bigger things affecting our collective lives

the fact the media prays on this is a "sickness" in our media and sheeple that follow the folly.

[terrisel]

9. Yes he may well be innocent

In the first case against Jackson the family wouldn't let prosecution go forward.

In this case we really have little information.

This could be like the infamous daycare abuse trials in many parts of the country where ambitious prosecutors and coaching therapists caused the false convictions of innocent people.

I think the "raids" are for publicity and to plant the image of guilt in the mind of the public. On that basis I am sceptical.

There is really no way to tell guilt or innocence from the "news" stories.

[AWD]

10. Innocent people don't....

Innocent people don't write 20 million dollar checks to people they didn't molest.

[KoKo]

13. But, crooked people often take 20 million dollar checks not to go to trial

Look at our Wall Street Settlements lately, look at all the high profile cases where people have done that. I think Jackson is disgusting and perverted, but doesn't the timing seem odd? And as "odd" as he is, maybe he's just "odd?"

[sfecap]

11. He IS innocent.

Until such time that he is proven guilty.

We still have that in amurka.

[NoMoreRedInk]

31. That's only in a court of law. He's either innocent or guilty right now..

He's guilty if he did it.

He's innocent if he didn't.

[chiburb]

54. Agreed.

The good DUers willing to dismiss or ignore the presumption of innocence is frightening.
Makes me want to do a search and see if they support Gitmo too...

[hlthe2b]

12. Ok, let's assume he is innocent...

First of all, MJ has the resources to buy the best defense money can buy (and as evidenced by the acquittal of the confessed billionaire killer in Texas recently, no one would argue that that can make quite a difference). Will he get a fair trial? With that kind of legal muscle, I really think so. While the exuberance of the prosecutor/sheriff in announcing their charges may suggest determination to "get him," it also may suggest that they learned from the last time and really DO have their ducks in a row-- and thus the confidence that that implies.

What he can't assure is the PR side of things. That's because innocent or not, the things he has openly shown us and volunteered about his own behavior have done enough damage. Is he a socially arrested childlike man, whose interest in young children may be totally nonsexual? Possibly. If so, it really is tragic that his family and friends who rally around to defend him, could not have gotten him some help, so that he could understand the implications of his behavior and help him modify it to avoid "misunderstandings."

I see horrendous potential for escalating tragedy here. Jackson's life has become such a mockery. Sadly, though, he may have already caused some significant "damage" to his own kids, simply by nature of his own bizarre antics... One has to wonder, though, why the mother of (at least two of) his kids or members of his own family would not have intervened to protect Jackson's own children, if they had any inkling that child molestation or other illicit sexual activity was going on..

[KoKo]

18. Intervention with family/friends/people we love is sometimes impossible,

but your post is excellent in pointing out things that could have been done, and is fair in it's argument of both sides...!

I think it's my overinflated sense of "injustice" that makes me feel that Jackson might be getting an unfair deal, while my head says he has a lot of weird stuff on his plate and one can only overlook so much in human behavior before one says "enough is enough." "If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, then it IS a duck, scenario."

[hlthe2b]

30. I agree with you, Koko1, but I worry less about people

who jump to the conclusion he is guilty, than those who take obvious satisfaction from this episode (and their conclusion)....

He's an icon for most of us and I'm extremely saddened to see him (potentially) self-destruct. His failure to recapture the success he had earier in life was potentially difficult enough to witness, but now I fear we may see something even more wrenching and pathetic. I see nothing good coming from this episode for anyone and certainly not from another media obsession.

But, again, I can't help wondering "what if...." That's where the real tragedy is likely to reside-- Could Michael have been helped somehow?

[Minstrel Boy]

14. I believe his obsession with children could be asexual,

which isn't to say it's harmless.

Given what I've seen, I think it's quite possible his interest, while disturbing, is of a non-sexual nature. At least in the sense which adults understand it.

This is a sick man, whose position has enabled him to indulge his sickness rather than treat it. Just look what he's done to himself. Does that make him a predator? I don't know. Certainly not a common predator. He needs an intervention. But prison? Until I see evidence of gross sexual misconduct, I think he's in greater need of medical attention.

[Scott Lee]

15. Sorry - this is TWICE Jacko has been suspected of molestation

Now once could be a fluke. But twice? I'm beginnning to think the guy has a serious problem.

Of course he should enjoy the full measure of due process and I will assume him innocent until guilty. But my gut is telling me that he is not going to walk from this. I'm as liberal as they come, but screw with kids and you're walking on the fightin' side of me.

[Sterling]

19. "I'm beginnning to think the guy has a serious problem."

No, really? You don't say? This is something you recently decided?

[KoKo]

53. Kick!

:donkeykick:

[kentuck]

16. I've thought about that...

Who knows? Perhaps the 12 year old and his parents think they can get $20 million like the othe person did?? I think we should operate from the premise that a person is innocent until "proven" guilty.

[doubles]

17. It is fishy that they charged him the day he released an album.....nt

[msmcghee]

20. Thanks for articulating a thought that passed . .

. . my mind more than once today. But I never thought it through as well as you. Mine was just a fleeting suspicion.

We are in a truly bizzarro world now - and I expect much more bizzarreness in the weeks and months to come.

Didn't there used to be a :thumbs up: graphic?

[Eloriel]

21. KoKo -- I'll let you in on a little secret

If you study the issue of child abuse, child sexual abuse, dysfunctional families, domestic violence, substance abuse and addiction, you come to recognize the signs and symptoms.

For all his fame and fortune, Michael Jackson had a very dysfunctional childhood in a pretty darned dysfunctional family. I read his sister's book a number of years ago and in it she said that her dad brought people into Michael's bedroom while he was sleeping to get a look at him, because he was a star. That may not sound so "terrible," but it's exploitation. And if she felt safe in revealing that, you can bet there was a lot more that went on that she didn't feel safe disclosing and/or that she didn't even know about. Old Joe drove the kids pretty hard, too, and took advantage of them in other ways as well.

Trust me, after all these allegations, yes, he's not innocent. Children, except in very rare instances, don't make this shit up. And no child (or his parents!) would want to go through what's coming up for them if there weren't considerable substance to the charges.

Eloriel

[KoKo]

26. Eloriel, I know the family is all dysfunctional, but still...I wonder..the

timing. When this has all been known so long....but yes, he's probably guilty of weird stuff, but the "Press Conference in CA" sent up alarm signals to me...it seemed like a "witch hunt." But then, there really are people who deserve a "witch hunt." :shrug:

[NashVegas]

28. Yes, The Timing Sucks, Absolutely

All this crap going on w/Medicare and SS privatization in the works, the Boy King in London, and the networks choose fricking JACKO to interrupt my soap operas. Grrrrr.

Asides, I'm with Elorial. I believed the charges the first time around the day Jackson's private investigator, Tony Pellicano, called a press conference and played for the corps a portion of recording of a phone conversation between that kid's Dad and MJ (might have just been an answering machine message), wherein dad said, "when the truth comes out. ..." Until that moment, I'd kept an open mind.

Gossip, rumors, word all "get around," but the truth is that genie that pops out of the bottle no matter how hard you try to keep it corked. If that guy was lying, then he was a very good liar with an excellent understanding of how we use language.

[msmcghee]

24. He may be guilty, but . . .

. . if you exchange the word "witchcraft" for "child molester" in the above posts, and you found a rather strange looking person - from the early American 1700's (on edit: 1692)- this thread could be an account of the thoughts of the good citizens of Salem, Mass. at that time.

That's not a value judgement - just an observation.

[KoKo]

27. I was just posting about "witch hunts" while you were! ROFL..Some minds

are thinking "in sync., here." That was weird!

[msmcghee]

33. Welcome . .

. . to the twilight zone.

[Jacobin]

25. No pity

In this country, money to hire lawyers will get you "justice" (read acquittal)even if you are guilty.

It's poor innocent people I'm concerned about. They get plea bargained and thrown in jail and forgotten.

[sujan]

29. I still believe he is innocent

I say 'believe' because I do not 'know'.

[economic justice]

38. Did you feel the same about Arnold? Also, a little about the DA.

Let's get real. A HUGE majority of the people in this country think MJ is a strange man and probably should pay his due time in jail. If not, he needs serious, serious help. But, I am a bit amused reading the replies that say to give him the benefit of the doubt. Did we all feel the same about Governor Gropinator? NO. With some things there's so much "circumstantial" evidence in the court of public opinion that to say "Wait, wait..." actually looks silly. Fool me once (which he didn't) shame on you, fool me twice: shame on you. It certainly applies here.

I also don't think Sneddon timed this in any way. He's not a horrible guy. I have always admired him for not jumping ship into private law firms that have wanted him for years. He is considered one of the all-time great prosecutors in LA County history before he became DA in SBC. He's tough, a moderate man, and NOT the type to "go along" with something like this just to take the heat off of somebody , or anything else. He's just not. I worked with him when Notre Dame was selecting a new head football coach (he's a big Irish alum) and he was gung ho on hiring a minority, Ty Willingham in particular, and has long advocated for more minorities in head coaching jobs in major college football. Sneddon is NOT the bad guy in this deal.

[linazelle]

32. I'm hoping he's innocent....and disgusted at the media

ABC News all day long Kobe (aids testing) and Michael. In the meantime they're reporting Bush had a slam bang visit and made the greatest speech ever.

To top it off, CBS has pulled Michael's special. Unreal. If Michael is guilty, he deserves this but if he is not, nobody deserves this.

[MrSlayer]

34. I'd charge the parents too.

Any parent who willingly lets their child stay over with Michael Jackson after all the allegations of before should be put away themselves. They are as guilty as he in my eyes. I'm all for innocent until proven guilty but there have been too many previous incidents in Mike's case. 1993 was only the first time actual charges were brought against him. Child molesters deserve the worst kind of punishment. Send him to the sodomites in the darkest, hardest part of the nearest state prison for the rest of his short, pain filled life.

[BlackFrancis]

35. yeah..

I think that he would be the biggest damn fool ever or completely self-destructive to ever want to be alone with children ever again if he was innocent in the 90's.

If he is some railroaded victim he went out of his way to want to be one. On a related tangent any parent who left their children with him alone unsupervised after those allegations (true or false) should share some portion of blame. However, this doesn't excuse Michael from either screwing kids or sticking a target on his forehead for reasons that obviously make him a danger to himself or others.

[Old and In the Way]

36. Guilty

Of being stupid and being naive that he could build a little kids world for himself by using real kids as props. The man hates himself (I think his self-molestation speaks to that).

I have no idea if he did what he has been accused of. But he (or the advisors that counsel him) is guilty of allowing himself to be exposed to these charges...he really should have learned his lesson the last time.

But, OTOH, what of the parents who enabled their children to be in this position...what's their excuse?

[bloom]

37. it's too bad the other case didn't see the light of day

I don't think high profile cases should become televised events - and maybe when people have so much money - the trials are never fair anyway - but when people are NOT convicted for crimes then where is the accountability?

The settlement might have been the best thing for the alledged victim at the time. But was it best thing for possible future victims? It seems like that is what the court system is about.

[economic justice]

39. Yes!

That is absolutely right. This is what the DA (Tom Sneddon) has said for years. In fact, after Jackson slimed out of the first thing with his buy-off, Sneddon set out to change the law in California....and he succeeded. California (like most of the rest of the country) no longer needs the cooperation of the child and/or parent to prosecute. This time IS different.

[arewethereyet]

40. He's got money enough for great lawyers

If he's innocent, he'll walk. He could walk even if he isn't.

[KoKo]

41. I still think he might have his own story to tell about this, much as I

dislike him.

[grannylib]

42. CNN already called him the "most famous child molester in history" so

I guess presumption of innocence has truly gone the way of free speech, etc....

[TrogL]

43. Did he drop the baby?

Micheal did not "dangle a baby over the balcony". He held the baby up for the crowd to see. Everything else is right-wing spin.

[Terwilliger]

44. in the spirit of your question....who cares?

I really don't care. If MJ is a pedophile and someone makes a complaint against and he's dealt with by laws and precedents...I could really care less. I'm sure justice will be served somewhere.

[KoKo]

50. Terwillger, I still want to see him get a "fair" trial, not a Media Trial,

however your point is taken in that...given his "history" why not "throw the book of laws at him."

Still...he's such a pitiful figure, and disaster, but with so much talent.....I hope to give him a "little room" if it isn't what we think.

After all...Howard Hughes didn't get put into prison....and he was one really "WEIRD DUDE!" With much more influence than "poor little Michael in his last days....with his masks and "supposed children" in "see through" Burka's!

[freeminder]

46. I support "delusional" : Michael looked to me to be an insane young boy

in an adult body, in the "documentary" filmed under false pretenses by Martin Bashir.

It looks to me as if, due to the very unusual circumstances of his childhood, he never grew up and lives in a dream world. He is a kid among kids, and I felt he has positive feelings for the kids with him.

I can imagine him sleeping with other kids in one bed, and fooling around like kids do.

That could be grounds to say he needs to be put in a mental hospital, but NOT to say he is a child molester.

To me he looks like a sad victim of success, and the media storm about him is a Red Whale (instead of herring)

[msmcghee]

47. I don't know if he did anything wrong, but . . .

. . from what I've read he is a distrurbed person in that he seems to have a fixation for young boys. That does not have to be sexual in nature. Of course it could be. I do know he suffered through a very difficult childhood with a maniac father figure.

But the question is - did he do anything that could be construed as sexual assault or sexual molestation with a minor. You can be as upset as you wish with his wierdness and self mutilation - but unless he sexually molested or assaulted a minor then he's not guilty.

While we are all getting so upset about his wierdness - just remember the frenzy and terrible destruction of innocent peoples' lives that occurred when the Manhattan Beach Day Care Center thing happened. And those peoeple were not even wierd - or rich.

Then there was a similar public panic up here in eastern Washington that also turned out to be groundless. I think prosecutors get some sort of a "prosecutor complex" where they sometimes feel helpless to convict real criminals so they compensate by wanting to save society from the worst of evil - and what could be more evil than child molesters?

So they reach for evidence knowing that a jury panicked by lurid accusations might not care too much about real proof - especially knowing that their friends and neighbors would be outraged if they found him innocent.

Many posters here in this thread in fact seem to convey the feeling that he has to be guilty - because he's so wierd. I'm not sure myself - but I'm leaning on the skeptical side right now.

I'd be very careful jumping to conclusions.

[KoKo]

51. Good Points, msmcghee, there are many "child molestation" incidents which

are suddently coming to light as not being quite what we thought on the surface of it all. In today's media, it's so hard to separate the true from the "hype" in these situations. Sensuality and Sexual Orientation, and Deviation" are big SELLERS in the Media today.

Who knows what might be "McCarthyite tactics."

But, gotta say Michael has certainly done EVERYTHING to promote this with his extremely weird, disgusting facial "redo's" and his "lifestyle."

Still....I hope to keep an open mind, here, even though the "looks of it" seem to point to Jackson as guilty.

[KoKo]

48. "Billy Jean, Knocking at My Door, Saying' I'Am the One, the One,the One!"

He thought they were after him then, but he's really a "nutcase."

[kskiska]

49. I know exactly how you feel.

I had no sympathy for Jackson – until watching the smarmy coverage this afternoon, and heard his brother's call to CNN. I'm getting the feeling he may be railroaded. If he's guilty, that will most likely become evident at the trial, but in the meantime, the media is gleefully conducting a lynching, doing what they do best. Ask Bill Clinton or Gary Condit.

[KoKo]

52. Why do so much "Media Overkill" when the guy looks so guilty anyway?

Agree, Kkiska, it makes even some of us who thought all of it was true, shrink back and say......"hey, wait a minute here!"

[Silverhair]

56. Not much chance of innocence. He has been running his...

mouth. He has so insulated himself from reality that he doesn't realize that some of the stuff he has said has let the cat out of the bag. He has had little boy spend the night in bed with him. That is enough. There doesn't need for anything other than that to have happened.