Need help to counter repug arguments....PLEASE

[ablbodyed]

I watched a PBS docu on the Kennedy's. It was even handed, often critical, but never fawning.
One of the main points was about the 1960 election and how it came down to Texas and Chicago organizations 'getting' those states for Kennedy/Johnson.
It got me to thinking: how was that any different from Florida 2000? Before you flame me I ABSOLUTELY believe that the election was stolen by the repugs, both before and after the voting, in subtle and direct ways.
I do have some handle on what I want to say, but would REALLY appreciate your perspectives, arguing points, facts, anything that I can use in a discussion; but also to come to grips with the uncertainty about the differences in my own mind. Thanks in advance

[liberalhistorian]

1. I've never believed the repuke

allegations that the mob somehow "gave" Chicago to Kennedy, thereby giving him enough votes to prevail in the election and the electoral college, as a favor to Joseph Kennedy.

All the so-called "evidence" I've seen has seemed to me to be nothing more than bullshit sour grapes from repukes who couldn't stand the thought of someone being in office who was actually on the side of the people and not the corporations and the military-industrial complex.

If it were true, though, you would certainly have a legitimate point, and there would be no difference between that and the Bushistas stealing of the election. But I really don't think it's true.

[Cloud]

2. My history professor was talking about this the other day

He was talking about how he was around in 1960 and that dead people voted in Illinois. It was when we were on the subject of the Kansas-Nebraska act and 5000 votes were cast out of 1500 eligible voters on a slavery bill in Kansas.

I think we can all agree that election fraud is wrong. No matter what the party. Whether it is dead people voting in Illinois or minority voters being disinfranchised in Florida.

[tritsofme]

3. I dont know about Texas,

but old man Daley was notorious for having the dead show up on election day.

Vote early and vote often.

He was one of the last true political machines in the country.

[arewethereyet]

11. my friends from Chicago have no trouble believeing this

I'll accept what they think

[never cry wolf]

4. Elections results and myths

Many have said the Daley stole the presidency for Kennedy, not true. Kennedy won the electoral vote 303-219, Illinois 27 votes that years did not make or break the election, Kennedy would have won even without Illinois.

http://uselectionatlas.org/USPRESIDENT/frametextj.html

http://uselectionatlas.org/USPRESIDENT/GENERAL/pe1960.html

[LinkingRings]

5. But

with Texas's 25 electoral votes, if Texas and Illinois had gone Nixon he would have won.

[never cry wolf]

6. But, But

With California's 32 electorial votes (00.55% for Nixon) Kennedy still would have won, and that was the first blue state I clicked on. You think Nixon didn't have a machine in his home state??

[LinkingRings]

7. Original questoin

The question asked was about Texas and Illinois. You addressed one of the states. I addressed both.

[never cry wolf]

8. There really was no actual question asked...

...but I believe this was the gist of the original post:

One of the main points was about the 1960 election and how it came down to Texas and Chicago organizations 'getting' those states for Kennedy/Johnson.

My point is that every organization tried to 'get' states. Nixon 'got' Cali by 00.55%, Kennedy 'got' Texas by 2.00%. Yes, 'if' Texas AND Illinois had gone to Nixon the math is undeniable. All I am saying is that each state's electoral vote race is separate, some are won, some are lost for a variety of reasons.

I am not endorsing vote fraud by any party. It may have happened to some extent in 1960 but with Nixon's record I'll warrant it happened on both sides to a large scale. In 2000, it was clear that it was quite one sided on a large scale and even at that would not have worked without the SCOTUS selection.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[never cry wolf]

10. I suggest that 50,000 voters

were taken off the rolls in Fla by shrubbies campaign manager, more than a small percentage for having to commit felonies at some point in the future, according to the software program used to ferret them out.

In addition, the repugs bused in angry "citizens" from all over the country to try to intimitae the recount process. There were already numerous electronic balloting machines in use at the time and of course, that id the repug way to "clean up" vote fraud.

[bobbyboucher]

12. Spouting RNC lies are we?

Don't say "our side", because I doubt your sincerity. All the allegations that you make regarding 2000 are either false or pale in comparison to the GOP manueverings.

Please list some CREDIBLE sopurces for your claims. Next thing you know you will be carping on about how the DNC tried to disqualify legal military votes because of some infamous memo.

[Mentalist]

13. false?

Which ones were false?

The dead wanting to keep the polls open? Sorry. Its fact.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/HallsOfJustice/hallsofjustice76.html

From the article...

So the Dems filed a lawsuit to keep the polls open till 10 p.m., three hours later than the legal closing time.

Bond's report points out that the only named plaintiff who was not a candidate for office was one Robert D. Odom. The suit stated, "Robert D. Odom is an individual registered voter residing in the City of St. Louis and intends to vote for electors for the President of the United States and for other federal, state and local candidates. Odom has not been able to vote and fears he will not be able to vote because of the long lines at the polling places/machine breakdowns in St. Louis, Missouri, that have lasted for several hours."

Those representations were attested to by local counsel for Gore/Lieberman, who even told the judge that Odom "is here and prepared to testify."

The judge went along, and at about 6:30 p.m. on Election Day ordered the polls to stay open till 10 p.m. Republicans raced to the Missouri Court of Appeals, which quashed the lower court's order at about 7:45 p.m. The appellate court noted, "It is probably impossible to know how many voters were improperly permitted to cast a ballot after the polls should legally have been closed."

But wait, there's more!

Unfortunately for the Democrats, as Bond points out, Odom "was either dead or never existed." When the May 1999 death certificate for Robert D. Odom surfaced, there was an attempt by the Dems to say oh no, not that Robert Odom; we really meant Robert M. Odom, known as Mark Odom, who works in the office of Democrat William Clay. Only problem: this Mr. Odom had actually voted, prior to the filing of the lawsuit, and thus could not have honestly complained of being unable to vote.



I hope you see this quick and there is no doubt the supressers of truth will be swooping in shortly to remove this post.

And I agree with you 100%. The BS pulled by the GOP in Florida with the purge is an outrage that the compliant media willfully covered up to protect their choosen one.