U.S. commander may face court-martial 'go to hell with a gasoline'

[dArKeR]

An Army officer fought back tears Wednesday as he acknowledged threatening to shoot an Iraqi prisoner to extract information about a planned attack, saying that to protect his troops, he would “go to hell with a gasoline can in my hand.”

http://msnbc.com/news/995835.asp?0cv=CB10

Did the suspect or the commander say the above? I thought for sure the suspect did but then reading again I'm not sure?

[plm135]

1. tough situation

Clearly, what he did was wrong, and he should receive some punishment for it, but he was trying to protect his troops, and he shouldnt be thrown to the wolves either.

I think that he should receive a reprimand and maybe be allowed to give his resignation, but he shouldnt be courtmartialed.

[Walt Starr]

2. Nope, he's a war criminal plain and simple.

He violated the UCMJ and international law. He should spend the rest of his life breaking big ones into little ones in Leavenworth.

[Superfly]

3. Disagree

and as an ex-Army guy myself, I too would walk over my own mother to protect my troops. No question.

[Walt Starr]

4. If you did, you would also deserve to spend the rest of your life

in prison.

I was in the military. The UCMJ is non-negotiable.

Court Martial follwed by a long sentence. There is no other option under the UCMJ.

[Superfly]

5. You must not have a thourough understanding of UCMJ

The UCMJ gives the JAG authority to impose a range of sentences for each crime.

And as for deserving to spend the rest of my life in prison for wanting to protect my troops, I think not.

[Walt Starr]

8. If you did what that asshole did

you're DAMN STRAIGHT you would deserve to spend the rest of your life in prison.

I;'d even support sending your ass to the Hague to stand trial for war crimes because that is what it fucking well is, A WAR CRIME!

He is no different than any other war criminal who has ever stood trial for war crimes, and you would be no different if you did the same thing.

It is adherence to the international laws covering the conduct of war that has always seperated the United States from many others. If this man does not end up in prison for the rest of his life, there will be no going back. We will all be a nation of war criminals.

[theboss]

10. Take a deep breath

What is the usual sentence for a threat during interrogation?

[Superfly]

13. I'm looking it up right now

The only charges I can come up with are:

Article 93 -Cruelty and Maltreatment - Max punishment: Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 1 year.

Article 133 - Conduct unbecoming and Officer - Max punishment: Dismissal, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for a period not in excess of that authorized for the most analogous (similar) offense for which a punishment is prescribed in this Manual, or, if none is prescribed, for 1 year.

[theboss]

18. Those work for me

I don't necessarily think he should be imprisoned though.

A dishonorable discharge and loss of pension benefits seems appropriate.

[Superfly]

21. Like I said before,

the UCMJ prescribes a max punishment and gives leeway to the JAG to prescribe lesser (or no) punishment.

[OldSoldier]

32. My favorites...

Article 93: cruelty and maltreatment
Article 98: noncompliance with procedural rules
Article 99: misbehavior before the enemy
Article 133: conduct unbecoming an officer and a gentleman

Article 97, unlawful detention, maybe...but that seems to apply more toward kidnapping
Article 104, aiding the enemy, maybe...

[Superfly]

33. One point

Article 99 deals with cowardly acts before the enemy such as desertion, throwing down arms, running away, etc.

[Superfly]

11. All your ranting and screaming is not going to change my mind

and I would do anything to a prisoner under my watch that would end up saving the lives of my soldiers.

You're damned right I would, without question, even if it meant my own life would be forfeit.

[Walt Starr]

14. Okay super Fly

Post #9 applies to you. You have no right to complain when American soldiers are ever tortured in the future because allowing this asshole to get away with it allows everybody to get away with it.

No double standards. You are saying it is okay for U.S. commanders to torture prisoners, ergo, it's now okay for everybody.

[Superfly]

16. And read post #15

for my answer to that.

[Walt Starr]

20. And read post 17, you SUPPORT the torture of U.S soldiers

if you support an American toruring prisoners, you support an enemy torturing U.S. prisoners.

No double standards, you cannot support one and deny the other.

[Superfly]

23. That's what we call circular logic, folks

I do not support torturing American troops and I do not support torturing enemy troops.

However, i will use all available means, including torture, coercion, threats, burning toothpicks under fingernails, whatever...if I knew an attack was imminent upon my troops, and that the prisoner in my custody had knowledge to prevent and/or reduce the number of casualties my soldiers will suffer.

[Walt Starr]

Then you agree, this man is a war criminal

because he tortured an enemy prisoner of war and he admits he tortured the man.

[Superfly]

27. Don't put words in my mouth and I promise to do the same...

I do not agree with anything you've said, so far.

[Walt Starr]

28. Good bye

I don't like talking to brick walls and that's how this thread feels.

Enjoy your double standards.

[Superfly]

29. Same to you

I don't like talking to "I-see-the-world-in-black-and-white" absolutists.

[Character Assassin]

6. Welcome to Township of Zero Sense of Proportion. Population: You

What he did isn't necessarily an LWOP offense, Sport.

[Walt Starr]

9. Okay, character Assassin

I never ever want to hear any complaints out of you when our troops are tortured.

If we let this asshole get away with it, it's open season to torture U.S. troops in any conflict, no exceptions.

[Character Assassin]

12. Which has absolutely zero to do with any possible sentence

I'm sorry, but could you please point out where I said where a court martial shouldn't be considered?

[Superfly]

15. It already is open season on US troops

if you haven't figured it out. Prisoners are raped, sodomized, and tortured by other countries.

[Walt Starr]

17. You have no right to complain, you support that happening

We are no diffeent than any of those cnations because you support this activity through your support of this war criminal.

[Superfly]

19. What war criminal?

As far as I know, he hasn't been convicted, yet. But, you seem to be the one calling for the maximum punishment and beyond...

[Walt Starr]

22. LT. COL. ALLEN B. WEST

That war criminal.

If Bush had not tossed the internaitonal court treay out, he'd be sent to the Hague for war crimes. What he did was torture and a war crime. He even admits he did it!

[Superfly]

26. Intersting signature line

you defend a woman, who by all appearances comitted a fraud on stockholders to make a buck, but your burning a soldier protecting his troops at the stake.

I see where your priorities lie...

[Arianrhod]

36. It is not "open season"; that's a right-wing talking point.

The troops shouldn't even be there. We illegally invaded and occupied a foreign country that was not a threat to us. None of your fine-tuning the UCMJ would be necessary if we had done the right thing in the first place.

[Superfly]

37. And that's what we call a straw man...

do you, for one second think that the soldiers pulling the triggers care one iota about the legality of the war? No, they're more worried about saving their own and their buddys' lives.

B

[Arianrhod]

54. My argument is not a "straw man". It's pertinent to your statement about

its being "open season" in Iraq. We invaded their country, remember?

Our soldiers are required to behave in a manner consistent with law, morality, and human decency. If they do not, they are tried and punished for their actions. So while I can sympathize with the emotional basis of your viewpoint, I don't agree with you.

We ought, first and foremost, to be human beings. If we lose that, it doesn't matter how many wars we win. We will still have lost.

[theboss]

7. God, this is a tough one

He broke the law. This much is obvious. And the situation requires some punishment.

But if I were a solider, I would certainly want this guy looking out for me.

Court-martial may be severe. Forced retirement? Loss of pension? I don't know.

I always wished I understood the Miltary Code of Justice better.

[rexcat]

24. At best Article 15

with some loss of pay and possible demotion, but no jail. Other than scaring the prisoner no harm done and he protected his troops. While I served in the military (too many years ago to want to think about it) none of my upper command would have gone this far for me. In the fog of combat shit happens.

[gratuitous]

25. How odd

I was always taught that the U.S. was the defender of people from thugs who point guns in their faces. It will be noteworthy to see whether the U.S. is still the defender of humanity or if it has become the accepter of post hoc rationalizations ("I was protecting my troops!" "I was just following orders!").

[Walt Starr]

30. Yep, point a gun at PFC John smith

and threaten him with death if he doesn't tell you the troop movements of his outfit. Threaten with violence if he does not give you more than his name, rank, and serial number. Shoot the gun then put it to his head and tell him the next bullet goes there.

That's torture. It's a violation of international law and the UCMJ.

[Superfly]

31. No, that's verbal coercion...a form of interrogation

get your definitions straight.

[Samaka 3ajiba]

67. Obviously some of you didn't read the article...

He got some of his soldiers to beat the guy up. When the prisoner still proclaimed his innocence, they walked him outside, said they were going to shoot him and fired shots near him.

That isn't a threat, its torture and thuggery plain and simple.

[RichardRay]

34. Folks, it's a war...

There are no rules, there is trying to stay alive, trying to carry out orders and trying to remember to be a human being. The gut-wrenching difficulty of accomplishing any of those goals is inhumane. Trying to apply rules and laws to it is absurd. That's why we don't want wars.

There are no good, fair answers, don't look for them. There is no justice, don't look for it. Just work and behave such that we don't have any more of them.

[Arianrhod]

35. You're wrong.

There are lots of rules regarding war, and lots of laws making sure those rules get followed. One of which is the UCMJ, another is the Geneva Convention.

[Superfly]

38. Agreed 100%

When bullets fly, troops care not for the UCMJ or fair sportsmanship. They do care about getting out alive by any means necessary.

[luckyluke]

39. So the Geneva convention is meant for peacetime?

[Superfly]

40. And for wartime

it prescribes the actions of uniformed soldiers.

Do you think a soldier on a two-way rifle range is concerned with either the UCMJ or the Geneva Convention?

[luckyluke]

41. Name, rank, and serial number

An enemy soldier has the right to keep silent on everything else and not be 'interrogated' with live gunfire.

-ll

[luckyluke]

42. That said...

...I respect Col West for reporting it himself and not weaseling out of the charges.

[Walt Starr]

46. That is his only redeaming quality here and IMO

that would be the ony reason he should ever be free of prison before his death of natural causes.

[theboss]

56. What charge and what sentence?

Where are you getting this life in prison thing? Quote some statutes here.

[betio]

57. Maybe West SHOULD be givin a token punishment, but Walt...

ask yourself what you would do in his shoes?

You're interrogating this prisoner. You believe him to have information critical to saving the lives of your men. He isn't talking.

Are you saying you just pat him on the head and escort him back to his cell for evening prayers and humous?

Personally, MY loyalties would lie squarely with my men. I would try not to hurt the prisoner, but I would use pressure and coersion to get some answers-- without regard to how I may be later perceived by the courts.

West did exactly what he should have (assuming the situation occured as advertised).

[Walt Starr]

59. My answer, I throw him in his cell and pursue other intelligence options

I do NOT violate international law and the UCMJ.

This is what historically seperated the U.S. from most other nations. We USED to be capable of conducting armed conflict in something resembling a civilized manner.

[Superfly]

61. Civilized armed conflict? No such creature...

nt

[Superfly]

43. When a prisoner's buddies are about to try to kill you...

well, I would think those rights would be "temporarily" suspended.

[luckyluke]

47. A prisoner's buddies are *always* trying to kill you!

The rules are made for war. Suspending them in time of war makes no sense.

Why don't we just scrap the Geneva Convention and UCMJ and go back to Attila the Hun warfare?

-ll

[Superfly]

48. I said the prisoner's rights

not the Geneva Convention, etc...

[luckyluke]

49. Prisoner's rights are guaranteed by Article 17 of the Geneva C.

Article 17 rules that captives are obliged to give only their name, rank, number and date of birth. No "coercion may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever".

-ll

[Walt Starr]

51. And thus, this Lt.Col. is a war criminal

under international law.

Some, though, would take the Bush route and ignore international law as "inconvenient".

[Superfly]

53. Who hasn't even been tried yet. But, hey

let's string him up anyways.

[luckyluke]

55. There are war criminals and there are war criminals...

...I reserve my strongest ire for worse things, like hurting civilians.

Col West should be disciplined in a way that fits his crime. I find your recommendation of 'locked up for life' excessive to the point of ridiculous.

-ll

[Walt Starr]

58. He's a Lt. Col.

The UCMJ is supposed to hold him to a higher standard than an enlisted man.

An E6 under the same cricumstances could expect at least five years for the same crime.

[Superfly]

60. I'm calling Bullshit on that....

list the charges and the maximum sentences a person can receive for this...

[Superfly]

52. Fine, then he should be brought up on appropriate charges

but I do not blame him one bit. If I were in his shoes, I hpe to God I could have done the same thing.

[Walt Starr]

50. Yep, and anybody who supports americans suspending the rights of

those prisoners they hold supports torture of American prisoners.

You can't have things two ways, although the RAY RAH USA USA USA Patriotic Murkan crowd would have you believe otherwise.

[Walt Starr]

44. Thanks for supporting honesty here

Some have been too "RAY RAH USA USA USA" to see the trees for the patriotic Murkan forest.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Terwilliger]

62. anybody have a problem that this guy is black?

how is it that he is the ONLY fucker in theater to do something wrong enough to face court-martial? what are the statistics on black men in the military?

[Walt Starr]

64. I don't believe that to be the case

The army, for all of its faults, is perhaps the single most color blind organization in the world.

I could be convinced otherwise if I saw evidence to support it, but for now I have to give the army the benefit of the doubt.

Probably the reason he's facing this is he openly admitted to his crimes. There's really very little that can be done. If a guy walked into a police station and says he beat up an elderly woman, he'll be arrested and taken away, regardless of race.

[TSElliott]

63. The only reason that...

this man is being thrown to the wolves is because he's black. If he were white the Army would have pulled a hush-hush on it and no one would have ever heard about it. Plus if he were white I am sure that there would be very few cries for, "off with his head" but because he's black, "well we can't have these black men running around the battle fields making hasty decisions that could hurt America's image."

It's Racism plain and simple, this shit happens all the time in wars and nothing ever comes about it except in this one instance involving a black officer.

[dArKeR]

65. 'go to hell with a gasoline can' - mean he'd commit a suicide attack?

Sorry, I really don't get why he used these words! And, are these words for a commander to be using?

[Mari333]

66. Sad isnt it..

an ILLEGAL occupation of a foreign country by an ILLEGAL administration that has NO accountability to the Geneva Convention or the rest of the world, and the whole ILLEGAL occupation is ignored and called a "war", and the assholes in the WH arent dragged out in chains for their ILLEGAL occupation, and this guy is caught in the middle like the rest of them. Only the soldiers go to the slammer, not Bush, Cheney, Wolfie, Perle, or any of the other fascists at PNAC..no, Ken Lay wont go to prison, or be tried..none of the wealthy bastards will ever see a jail cell.