Dean should be ready to be assaulted in Monday's debate....

[kentuck]

I hope he's wearing protective gear. I suspect they will throw everything but the kitchen sink at him. The heavy artillery will come from Lieberman and Kerry would be my guess, but I would not be surprised if the rest of the pack attacks him also. Whenever you get too high on the hill, there's always someone there to bring you down. I will be surprised if this does not happen.

[Demobrat]

1. I know you're right and I'm almost afraid to watch.

Not because I don't think Dean can handle it, but because I don't want my opinions of his opponents to go any lower. As it is I could hold my nose and vote for any of them if I had to, and I want it to stay that way.

[ShaneGR]

47. If Dean can't handle the primary attacks, how can he survive Rove??

Seriously, anyone who thinks Dean shouldn't be attacked better start thinking about what he'll face in the General election.

[_NorCal_D_]

50. Yep,

if Dean can't take the heat, he should jump out of the frying pan! B-)

[Demobrat]

55. I'm not worried about Dean at all.

He'll handle it.

[ldf]

88. but it's one thing to face attacks by your enemy

and quite another to face attacks from those on the same side you are.

yes, there should be a shakedown in democratic candidates, but, in the process, they can make ALL democratic candidates look bad.

it is all in how you do it. vindictiveness is always a turn off, and does nothing more than make the attacker look small, which in turn makes all our democratic offerings look small. after all, it that is all we have to offer.......

they can compare each other's plans for a solution, or they can "attack" one another.

i am someone that frequently finds myself uncomfortable, even embarassed, by actions by others, even though they have nothing to do with me. i will turn the channel before i will watch someone make a complete ass of themselves. and it is especially discomforting if it is one of my guys.

i do not want to have to hold my nose while voting for democrat.

[Hep]

2. Galoshes

There's going to be so much shit on that stage he's going to need wading boots.

[MuseRider]

4. Hey Hep!

I am coming to your thread to say that Dean can handle it. He has so far. (see I can be fair too even though sometimes it hurts!)

[Hep]

19. LOL

Great. Now I have to buy you a beer.

[creativelcro]

8. Hep, he's gonna be just fine

but thanks for another instance of insightful analysis

[Hep]

20. Wait and see

I think you'll find that my analysis will end up being right on point.

[mrgorth]

3. Agreed. It will be nauseating.

[robsul82]

5. He'll get it done, but...

...it'll be gross to watch.

Later.

RJS

[madfloridian]

6. That says it all about our party.

What a shame. Tommy Franks refers to martial law. They won't have to declare martial law. We will self-destruct before then.

[SahaleArm]

7. You want a debate, without debate?

It's not Larry King Live:shrug:?

[sangh0]

9. Yes

.

[slinkerwink]

10. I know....they'll come after him on the re-regulation bit...

but I think by bringing up the Enron debacle, that he'll be able to defeat it.

[LizW]

17. He could ask the other candidates

and the audience how their cable bills are these days.

[slinkerwink]

25. that's true---whatever happens, I'm prepare to see it with...

a Corona in hand!

[SahaleArm]

32. Use OTA, Get Dish, or DirectTV.

My cable bill has been pretty consistant for the past 7 years.

[madfloridian]

11. Why don't they go after the ones who want to deregulate?

I would imagine the general public agrees that corporations should have some oversight. Even the most right wing people I know think regulation is needed.

[Larkspur]

12. Don't forget Gephardt will be pissed at the Oct. 10, 2002 photo

used by Dean in the Iowa ads. Geppy doesn't like to remember recent history, especially his own treachery.

[slinkerwink]

40. poor Geppy

;-)

[Renew Deal]

13. I am worried about Clark with Edwards.

I think Edwards is going to go after him hard.

[slinkerwink]

41. I'm not so sure about that---Clark should be able to refute Edwards easily

[Renew Deal]

76. I agree but

I still think it will happen.

[Northwind]

14. yep

The campaign of the corrupt Washington insiders, led by Kerry, will attack him endlessly. Afterwards, Dean's numbers will go up and Kerry's corrupt insider campaign will continue its inevitable slide into oblivion.

[ozone_man]

77. What are all those pieces?

Remnants of Kerry's campaign? Its self destructing every day.

[returnable]

15. But what if Dean throws the first punch?

It's been known to happen :)

[slinkerwink]

16. then either way, they'll still go after him....

[Scott Lee]

48. Then ADJHS will show up in full force to cry foul.

SSDD.

[quinnox]

18. I hope so

Phony Dean needs to be exposed for the fraud he is before it is too late and he takes down the Democratic party to another defeat in 2004.

It would be tragic to have Dean, a man of no principle, who changes his position as often as the wind changes, be the nominee of a fine party like the Dems.

[Hep]

21. Oh yeah, tragic!

I swear, I'm gonna shoot myself if he wins.

[slinkerwink]

23. *rolls eyes*

:nopity:

[Zynx]

24. Name your fine man of principle who has never changed a position on

anything. Go ahead. I dare you.

[sangh0]

29. Name a man of principle who has changed as much as Dean?

CFR, Cuba sanctions, energy deregulation, SS age, Medicare, Balanced Budget Amendment, Israel, NAFTA, Yucca Mountain, Affirmative Action, Iraq.

[TLM]

33. As usual.. no quotes, sources, links or context... just accusations

You have to love the fact that the Dean bashers are so empty handed they have to try and spin a change in policy over the course of over a decade in public office, as a flip flop or waffle.

[_NorCal_D_]

58. The truth hurts

B-)

[Hep]

62. That's the truth?

Settin' the bar kinda low, aren't you?

[slinkerwink]

63. lol.....

:hi:

[Hep]

65. You know?

It's not like they'd accept that crap if it were someone attacking THEIR guy.

[_NorCal_D_]

71. Why so defensive?

Can't you take a joke? :shrug:

B-):bounce:

[Hep]

79. It always ends up a joke

When you get your ass handed to you for being a punk.

[slinkerwink]

34. It's called being able to think and realize new realities when the facts

no longer exist to support the original premise.

[SahaleArm]

57. Where are there vanishing facts you speak of?

I didn't realize facts were transient:).

[Hep]

64. Well

We haven't seen them, have we? There's a post below this one that you should read and respond to.

[Schmendrick54]

46. A response but not an answer from me.

Good evening sangh0. Although your question was not directed to me in particular, I would like to reply.

It seems to me that the intent of your question is to make the point that Howard Dean has changed position so many times he must be lacking in principles. I think that is a valid question to raise, and I will share with you why I, a Dean supporter, believe Dr. Dean to be a man of principle despite the litany of issues you list which you believe to reflect his changes of position.

CFR (Which I take to mean Campaign Finance Reform). It seems to me that the underlying goal of CFR is to reduce the influence of special interest financing in modern elections. THis is a problem which evolved from the need for campaigns to spend every increasing funds for media access. The intent of the legislation was to level the playing field for candidates who would not then have to be beholden to special interest money. It is a worthwhile goal, which Dr. Dean has indicated he supports. In this election, George Bush will have $200 Million (at least) to spend before next September trashing the Democratic nominee. If Dr. Dean had not opted out he would not be able to respond to these attacks (which began today in Iowa). I for one am glad that he made this choice. I do not think it makes me a man without principle (your opinion may vary, of course).

Cuba Sanctions - I believe (I may be wrong) that Dr. Dean has stated in the past that he is in favor of lifting the sanctions, but recently said we should not do so now because of recent actions by Castro's regime which we do not want to appear to be rewarding. Again, this does not strike me as an unprincipled flip-flop; rather it seems to me like a reasonable short-term course adjustment based on changing world conditions.

energy deregulation - Again, I am not certain I know what you are referring to here, but I understand that at some pooint in his governorship, Dr. Dean supported some sort of energy deregulation. Apparently he, like many others thought that this might lead to more competition and better prices for his constituents. After witnessing the results of such failed experiments as demonstrated in the (still illegal despite deregulation) extortion of California's energy consumers he has decided that it was a bad idea. This strikes me as someone learning experience, which I regard as a positive characteristic. It is too bad Dubya refuses to acknowledge that his tax cuts for the wealthy solution for every situation isn't really working.

SS age - again, when faced with a serious fiscal crisis in the SS system, at one point in time Governor Dean (and many others) considered raising the retirement age for SS as a viable alternative. More recently, he has declared that a better answer would be to raise the cutoff point (so more income is subject to the tax). I think that is a good idea. I also think that the guiding principle here for Governor Dean is that we have to pay for whatever shoices we make, we can't pretend that we can spend the same dollar on SS and tax cuts. Coming up with a more progressive way to keep SS solvent does not seem like a change the demonstrates a lack of principles.

I could discuss your other examples, but I am not sure it would add anything to my argument. I guess I just wanted to explain why I am comfortable with my choice of candidate. If Dean is not the nominee, I will energetically support whomever is chosen. I think Clark is a great candidate and loved watching him respond to the insinuation that he did not support the troops recently on Fox. I also think Dick Gephardt has been a good and loyal supporter of working people for many years. There is much to like about all of our candidates. I realize that it is inevitable that each candidate's supporters (including Dean's) will and should point out shortcomings of the others during this primary season. I wish those of us on DU would spend a little more time emphasizing our own candidates positives and a little less time on the perceived negatives.

If anyone is still reading, thanks for your attention. I seem to be getting in a habit of longwindedness lately.

[Hep]

51. Not long winded enough

I only hope that some kind of fruitful discussion will take place now.

[Eloriel]

59. Welcome to DU!

One of the things I love about the place is that no one complains about the length of others' posts. (Well, hardly ever.)

Eloriel

[SahaleArm]

72. Dean's Re-Regulation plan.

Dean made his original (VT) choices under theory and conjecture. I can live with that, Clinton made the same decisions and now we get to see the results (the facts). Somewhere between self-governance and re-regulation for the sake of regulation is the answer, a balance of capital interests and labor interests. Until Dean lays out his plan I'll take what he said with a grain of salt. He'll have ample oppurtunity to move beyond the rhetoric.

This is a fork in the road for Howard Dean, he has a chance decide whether he wants to be the reactionary candidate or whether he wants to be the candidate of great ideas?

[Cha]

73. A Welcome from me, too, Schmendrick!

Love your reasonableness!

[newyawker99]

75. Hi Schmendrick54!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Hep]

81. Kick for BLM

Here is the post you need to respond to. Thanks.

[lastliberalintexas]

91. Good post

And welcome to DU!

I agree- we have a great field of candidates this year. None are perfect, but then none ever are! Even if my guy (Dean) doesn't get the nomination, we'll still be in good shape for next Nov.

[Jim Sagle]

49. Dean RAWWWWWWKKKKKKSSSSSSS!!!!!!

[Andromeda]

60. Bad Dean, bad, bad, bad Dean...

:dunce:

[slinkerwink]

61. how dare he try to try Bush's GOP-backed ad?

the nerve of him!

[sfecap]

22. Let 'em attack...

...it just drives Dean's poll numbers up.

When will they learn?

[Rowdyboy]

26. So far, none of the Democratic attacks have had any real effect

on Dean. No new difficult issues have emerged since the last debate, other than reregulation, and thats really not a big issue to the average voter. Dean hasn't stumbled and has continued to stay focused. If Kerry/Gephart/Edwards/Lieberman try to gang up on him, it will be obvious and should work to his advantage. I believe that my guy, Clark, will continue to abstain from cheap attacks.

All in all, Dean should be on cruise control for the New Hampshire debate.

[slinkerwink]

27. what will you do if Clark attacks Dean over the re-regulation issue?

It's a big issue to voters who were gouged by Enron and other corporate companies.

[knight_of_the_star]

30. You seem not to know the facts of the issue

Enron happened not because there were no laws in place to stop them, but because the DoJ refused to enforce them. If what Enron did was legal, why would they have been so secretive about it?

[SahaleArm]

35. Enron is symptomatic of the current administration.

SEC non-enforcement (Spitzer does the work), No-bid contracts (Bechtel, Haliburton); crony capitalism at it's finest.

[Hep]

42. Amen to that

n/t

[Eloriel]

66. That's not entirely true

See Wendy Gramm, and her "accomplishments" at FERC (was it? or another regulatory agency? and then went on to sit on Enron's board) which directly allowed Enron to do what it did UNREGULATED by that agency.

I'm sure there were other laws which weren't being enforced, BUT the whole energy de-regulation fit that went on was directly applicable to Enron -- in fact, Enron helped write the California deregulation plan which allowed Enron to do what it did.

Eloriel

[Hep]

28. I think you're wrong

The real effect is the throngs of new meetup attendees every month.

[slinkerwink]

31. yep....*nods*

[Rowdyboy]

37. I'm unsettled as to how I feel about deregulation/reregulation...

There are so many facets, its not an easily answerable question. I'm really not entirely comfortable with either position.

I wouldn't be happy to see Clark begin attacking yet. There's no reason. He's run a positive campaign and I think a lot of people appreciate it. If he does, I would the expect the character of the attack to be issue-oriented and not some cheap shot. I would also think that Dean's record on deregulation in Vermont would be fair game.

It would take more than one or two issues to shake me loose from Clark. I'll probably be one of the last to abandon ship, should it become necessary.

[slinkerwink]

39. we'll see what happens in the debate. May the best man win!

:toast:

[Padraig18]

36. Bring it on!

Every time they attack him, his polling improves. Reason: people hear "Dean blah. blah, blah, Dean, blah, blah, blah...".

I love it! :yourock:

[slinkerwink]

38. no such thing as bad publicity if it's couched in negative attacks

from other candidates. ;-)

[Padraig18]

53. Yeah!

I wonder when they're going to learn the old Chicago adage: don't give your opponent publicity. Seems pretty basic, to me... :shrug:

[xxqqqzme]

43. I am going 2 a meeting Sunday

in LA & Trippi is supposed 2 B there announcing CA strategy & taking questions/suggestions. May B I'll get a chance 2 get his take.

[slinkerwink]

44. yeah, Trippi will answer your questions---he did that in DC

[xultar]

45. Dean will do GREAT on Monday. Even though it will be un-nerving

to see the Dean field attacks should build your respect for him as a candidate.

[mitchum]

52. It's better to give a contribution to the Moveon.org ad fund...

instead of a campaign contribution to one candidate.

[mitchum]

54. Ignore this (attempted to post on another thread)

"What happened?"

[mlawson]

56. It might not matter; the media will still be obsessing over

Jacko. Perhaps he will be SEEN on Monday somewhere!! That should take care of any media attention to something as trivial as a coming presidential election.

What were you THINKING, kentuck????

[Uzybone]

67. Why are people whining?

even before the debate. Are the other challengers supposed to sit mute or just nod thier heads in agreement with Dean. I dont wanna see Bush vs Gore 2 or Cheney vs Lieberman. They should call each other on any issues they feel are appropiate.

[JohnKleeb]

69. premptive fear

:shrug:

[Larkspur]

68. Looks like Gephardt will attack Dean on his position on the $87 billion

for Iraq.

Hope Dean slams him with the "if the Democrats in Congress had asked the tough questions about Iraq prior to Oct. 10, 2002, we wouldn't need to be sending $87 billion of US taxpayer money to Iraq. That money could have bought healthcare for Americans, and our troops would not be sitting ducks in Iraq."

[slinkerwink]

70. can't wait for the debate on monday!

[Myra]

74. From what I've seen of Dean

He can more than handle himself and his
attackers in a debate.

The real delimma for the good candidates
is how to counter the media whore spin before
and after the debate.

[Capn Sunshine]

78. remember when you're on top,

Its yours to lose.

They can't take frontrunner from Dean , he has to give it up.
Does this sound like something Howard Dean is going to do?

[onebigbadwulf]

80. It will be good because

The public will become desensitized to these attacks. By the time Bush tries to use them, they will be meaningless and old.

[bitchkitty]

82. I don't think CMB will attack,

she'll be the gentlewoman that she is. I hope Clark will not, but I think we can count on Kerry's animosity.

[maddezmom]

83. who is still going to be there?

Lieberman, Kerry and Edwards should be back in DC.

[IndianaGreen]

84. deleted by user

[IndianaGreen]

85. Kerry won't be there, he'll be filibustering the Medicare screw us bill

And Lieberman has the credibility of Ann Coulter among rank-and-file Democrats.

As to Gephardt, remind the sob of his great rudderless leadership in the House, his vote against/or absence during the "partial-birth" abortion ban, Overtime rules, PATRIOT, and most of all, the IWR:

President, House Leadership Agree on Iraq Resolution

President George W. Bush along with bipartisan leaders from the House and Senate announced the Joint Resolution to authorize the use of the United States Armed Forces against Iraq. "The statement of support from the Congress will show to friend and enemy alike the resolve of the United States," President Bush said during the announcement in the Rose Garden, Wednesday, October 2, 2002. White House photo by Paul Morse.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021002-7.html

[jsw_81]

86. I'm not even going to watch the debate

Kerry, Lieberman, Edwards and a few others (I forget) aren't even going to be there.

[leesa]

87. I wish they would stop this nonsense. There are so many really good Dem

candidates, why can't they behave like adults and challenge each other's ideas with the idea of understanding rather than playing these stupid games.

[Woodstock]

89. this is horrible strategy

If they have HONEST* policy debates, that is one thing.

The mudslinging is another. If Dean's military deferment is brought up, I will personally do everything in my power to bring down the person who brings it up.

* not twisting words, but looking at the person's actual intentions, and then and only then if they disagree, bringing it up

[slinkerwink]

90. good thing Kerry isn't going to be there----he was the one who leaked

the draft deferment story to the LA Times...