It's amazing how polarizing a figure Dean is among Democrats!

[rumguy]

How will this play out in the general election? Is Dean to divisive to win the general election?

I like Dean, and will happily vote for him...but I worry about him p*ssing off a sizeable chunk of the democratic base, and not appealing to independents.

Do you dyed in the wool Dean supporters out there ever have any doubts about his candidacy? I consider myself a strong supporter, but sometimes I just wonder....

[Zynx]

1. Ummm...A NH poll completely contradicts everything you have said.

The only non-polarizing Dem out there on the forum is Clark, but there are a good number of people that don't like him either.

http://americanresearchgroup.com/nhpoll/dem/

This shows he has the highest favorables and other polls show that he wallops everyone else when it comes to independents.

[madddog]

10. I dont' get it either

I spent some time yesterday with 2 former Democratic congressmen...they're both fairly dismissive of Dean, saying he can't win, etc, etc. They both think Clark is gonna be the guy. They even think Kerry will do better than Dean as the candidate...I don't share that view, but we had a pretty lively discussion.

[slinkerwink]

13. they're just afraid of losing power so they're playing it safe with Clark

because he won't change the status quo.

[rumguy]

Nadar says Dean won't change the status quo either - n/t

[slinkerwink]

19. and you're trusting Nader who didn't even run as a registered Green?

:shrug:

[LoZoccolo]

80. Neither will Nader.

Because if Bush* gets elected again, well, that's the status quo.

[Scott Lee]

62. Agree. This "division" is really about statist vs. revolution

And the funny part is that the statist supporters won't benefit from retaining the status quo. That's quite odd. There is no vested interest for them, unless they are high party muckity mucks participating on DU.

In the end, it's not about Dean per se. It's about the necessary sea change to the Democratic Party so it becomes a viable opposition again, and wins elections.

[oxymoron]

72. delete - sorry

[John_H]

82. could it be "they" recognize that Clark takes away chimp's only issue?

I love Howard Dean and am torn between him and Clark. The reason I'm currently leaning toward Clark is not because I think he represents the status quo (in fact he's about as liberal as Dean if you look at Dean's record rather than his press office's rhetoric) but because, on balance, I think he's got a better chance of winning.

The way I see it you have two candidates with whom I agree on most social/economic/foreign policy issues. One of those candidates takes away *'s main issue. The other does not.

I'd be damn proud to call either my president, and i don't think dean is "unelectable." It's a matter of percentages.

[slinkerwink]

2. no, I don't have doubts about Dean's candidacy....

it's just a few political people on DU that thinks of him as a polarizing figure. The DLC, to their risk, is painting him as a polarizing figure and the other Dem candidates are buying into that claim. Most people aren't even paying to politics yet like we are on DU.

[PAMod]

22. You are so right about that.

Too often we think that the way things are going here at DU represents "out there", but in reality, most people aren't even thinking about it one bit.

My parents, for example, are checking out Howard Dean, but only because I'm always going on and on, etc. -- they couldn't even tell you another candidate for president (except for the pretender-in-chief Bush) - because they really aren't paying attention yet.

I think we need people to remind us every now and then that our posts here are a bit more intense than the average voter is at this point.

Polarizing? Only among a few at DU.

[artr2]

3. 2 Dean slamming threads in 10 min

Is the second shift on now ??

[SahaleArm]

11. Nah we're running double duty

Ready, Aim, ... :evilgrin:

[slinkerwink]

14. dude, that's just wrong

:puke:

[SahaleArm]

71. This place needs a little levity.

B-)

[Scott Lee]

59. Hmmm, Dean must be making major headway today!

Usually ADJHS doesn't make the kids work overtime like this.

[movonne]

4. I have not decided on Dean yet, but I do like him. I think whomever

gets the nomination will get the election if all goes the same has it has. Bush is dropping in the polls and if this trend keeps up I would say Dean would have just as good of a chance as anyone.

[david_vincent]

5. Divisive?

Today I saw a car that had both Dean and Kucinich bumper stickers!

[Melinda]

That would be my car! Dennis has my......

:loveya: too.

[maddezmom]

6. why do we have to have this threads on DU?

Dean is not my first choice, but all I can think about is the competition reading these thread. :(

sorry spelling errors

[rumguy]

7. I was just looking through a long Clark thread

and I couldn't believe all the fighting going on in there between Clark supporters and Dean supporters. I worry that some of those Clark supporters may not vote for Dean...

It amazes me how entreched people are with their candidates so early in the game...

[maddezmom]

12. it is sad

It'so sad :(

[Rowdyboy]

20. When you've been here awhile you'll see that the

negative posting is all done by a very few people who continually try to insult the other candidates. There are asses like this in all the major groups here (Dean, Clark, Kerry and Kucinich). On the long Clark thread you mentioned, there are only maybe a dozen different attack-dogs, who keep recycling the same attacks, over and over.

Most Clark supporters will support Dean if he's the nominee, just as most Dean supporters will support Clark. Don't be overly concerned by the loudmouths. They don't reflect the general attitude here.

[chimpymustgo]

16. I worry that some of those Dean supporters may not vote for Clark.

Get it?

[slinkerwink]

17. hell, I'll vote for anybody but bush!

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

29. I certainly would

I like Clark a lot, and I certainly like his chances.

[Scott Lee]

60. Many of us have repeatedly said we'd vote for Clark....

if he got the nomination. Haven't you been reading these threads?

[xultar]

40. I worry that some of those Clark supporters may not vote for Dean...

You should worry. I wanted to be so active in the 2004 campaign until I ran into some of the flack from the Dean supporters. I began dreading a Dean nomination not because of Dean but because of his supporters. I was even considering not working for the ticket and just voting.

[w4rma]

53. Weren't you impersonating a Dean supporter, earlier, xultar?

And you were slamming Clark and getting Clark supporters angry at Dean supporters.

[Cha]

63. Didn't you have a Dean avatar on your

post, yesterday? I could have sworn you did and I asked you if you had a "Clark avatar on the day before?" Are you switch hitting? :D

[HFishbine]

81. What does that say about Clark?

That some of his supporters may not vote for the eventual dem nominee if it's not Clark? Kinda makes one wonder about their priorities.

[madfloridian]

8. I alerted on this.

n/t

[rumguy]

9. What's there to alert about?

Is it taboo now to discuss this?

[chimpymustgo]

15. Shhhhhh...can't discuss the shortcomings of Howie Dean.

lalalalalalalalalalala

[_NorCal_D_]

24. Absolutely

Didn't you hear? Dean is INFALLIBLE! B-) :bounce:

[Eloriel]

32. It's inflammatory

If you read the rules posted right here in GD, at the top of the list of threads, you'll see that the first post in a thread isn't supposed to be inflammatory.

Eloriel

[TLM]

49. Haven't you heard... rules don't apply to Dean Bashers.

[rumguy]

52. Lighten up, ok

I didn't start this thread to bash Dean...

I wish I never would have started it now...for crying out loud...

[OKNancy]

61. I can't believe you wrote that

when certain people come in to positive Clark threads and make a point of disrupting and posting hateful comments.

There is nothing polerizing about Dean the man....it's the people who support him that are the problem.

More people support some other candidate than Dean, btw. Add up the numbers for the other 8. If Dean supporters hope to draw from other candidates, I think it would be wise to tone it down a bit.

[Forkboy]

65. At what point does opinion become a bash?

[Cocoa]

18. he doesn't have to be

like here at DU, some people on both sides are trying to cool it down.

[polpilot]

21. Dean is THE REVOLUTION. Is he as angry as the colonists were????

Dean '04...New America

[rumguy]

26. I don't know what that means exactly

but it made me laugh!!!

[polpilot]

54. That's positive!! It means...are we really as mad as the colonists when

they revolted. Of course we are.

Dean '04...

[Nazgul35]

23. It doesn't matter!!!

As i've said on many threads like this....nobody is paying attention to the crap the people of DU obsess about....

Face it...the DU crowd are one of the more obscure corners of the world of the Democratic Party...when 2/3rds of Dems can't even name most of the candidates...there's little to be gained by projecting the disfunctions of some immature posters on DU towards all of the American electorate....

take a deep breath....calm down and dont worry....what goes on at DU is noticed by about a couple thousand here and those horses' asses over at freeper land....and that is it....

[slinkerwink]

25. that's true....

[Cha]

35. Haven't you heard...."from mousepads to shoe leather"?

I post on DU but I take that information that I learn and pass it on to the People I work with and the customers who come into our Co-op and to my Family! It is not without merit that we slave over a hot keyboard! :D

[Nazgul35]

77. yes..perhaps an amendum then...

If all we do is sit at this computer and bitch to the vastness of cyberspace...than you are wasting everyone's time...

I do use this site to get a pulse about what's going on around the country...and get connections to newspaper articles in different states...but for news I go to the sites that frequently get posted here...atrios, dkos, TPM, calpundit, smirking chimp, liberal oasis, take back the media, blah3, mediawhores, etc...

I also spend a considerable amount of time actually working for my candidate...and it aint easy what with me working on my PhD!!!!

Never again....that's my new motto...never freakin again!As long as I have breath in my body and quickness in my limbs I am going to do what I want, say what I want and push for who I support polls be damned....cause polls are made...not reacted to!!!! We create our own destiny and we will win through to a better future for this country if we focus on what's important....and a few malcontents who's maturity is not to hard to acertain is not worth comment or our effort.....

but sometimes they piss me off and I just gotta post!!!!!

:evilgrin:

[LittleDannySlowhorse]

27. I have doubts all the time

Dean is my #1 choice, but I'd be crazy not to have any reservations about him. While it's true that his style is certainly not everyone's cup of tea, and his lack of military and foreign relations experience is a drawback, I don't consider those his biggest obstacles in getting elected --- it's that capital "D" next to his name. In short, as far as his crossover appeal goes, he has the exact same problem that all the other Democrats have, which is that he's a Democrat, which is not exactly a fashionable thing to be right now. There are other candidates who are certainly better qualified in those areas, but I don't think that matters to Republican voters. These are the people who managed to tar Max Cleland as some kind of terrorist-coddling subversive, and I think that's more what the problem is --- these people just don't like Democrats. What qualifications they may or may not have is negligible when your party affiliation is the problem.

Dean is a fighter. This is why I consider him electable, perhaps more so than anyone else running. We Dems have been taking the high road for a couple of years now and it's not working. Our opponents have no compunction about taking the low road and it's obviously working wonders for them. We need to send Bush someone who will call him out on his shit, and not mince words while doing it. We need to send Bush someone who will put him on the defensive and keep him there. In short, it's time to stop being nice. It's time for a candidate who will call Bush on the carpet with an intensity reminiscent of the Spanish Inquisition. I really believe it's the only way to get rid of him. Rove and his minions have already proven that no attack is too low for them to pursue, and no tactic is too dishonorable. These people stole an election. They have no morals and no respect for anything but power. Dean, as far as I'm concerned, is the only candidate capable of standing up to them and pounding them HARD. That is why I consider him the most electable candidate we have. I know that this is not the commonly-held view, but that's my two cents.

[rumguy]

30. Very true - Dean is a fighter

If he gets the nomination no one will be able to say that he doesn't deserve it...

[Eloriel]

42. He's also far better than most if not all the other candidates

at getting both Independents and Republicans.

I think you can stop worrying. We're not likely to get TOO many Republican votes, but Dean has already demonstrated his ability to attract them:

New Hampshire Republican for Dean
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/002058.html

Republicans for Dean
http://atlblogs.com/republicansfordean/

Independents for Dean
http://deanindependents.org/

Eloriel

[quaker bill]

28. Strong things are polarizing

It is their nature.

People who accomodate and equivocate are generally more comforting.

In my opinion we have grown rather accostumed to politi-speak. You know the 'we are going to gather the stakeholders together and develop a consensus position/develop a mission statement' new-age management mumbo-jumbo. Its the let's not offend anyone PC-ness bit.

A strong position stated clearly and in simple language will always be polarizing. It is simply out of kind with current political parlance. But,look back to the policitical speeches of yesteryear. You will find firey political rhetoric was common before the 60's

Accomodation and equivocation allowed GW Bush* to run as a 'compassionate conservative' when his record spoke volumes to the contrary. Why would we want to nominate more of of the same?

It is time we nominated someone who will call out the conservatives based on their destructive record, accurately and bluntly stated in clear simple language. It will be polarizing, no doubt. I think it is a winning proposition, but win or lose, at least our objections will be on record.

[rumguy]

37. good point...

strong things are polarizing, for better or for worse...

stupid things are also polarizing, like shrubya...

[_NorCal_D_]

44. Ridiculous

Strong things are polarizing

Then I suppose Bush is the greatest, strongest leader in the history of mankind?

[Qutzupalotl]

55. Not all polarizing things are strong

maybe?
:shrug:

[rucky]

68. Ding! Ding! Ding!

"If you not pissing people off, you're not doing anything worthwhile."
- rucky

[madison]

31. there may be infiltrators here whose SOLE purpose is to pretend they. . .

Does it EVER occur to anyone on DU that there may be infiltrators here whose SOLE purpose is to pretend they support one Democrat or another and then aggressively bash another Democrat, so that you will all think said candidate is "too divisive" or "too polarizing"?

Ware up to reality: Not everyone here is who he or she claims to be. There are mischief-makers among us.

Or did you think the right-wingers play by the Marquis of Queensbury Rules?

[slinkerwink]

34. that's possible but then it'd make us all really paranoid....

but we're paranoid anyway ;-)

[Rowdyboy]

38. I think its not only possible

but very likely. I can just see snickering college fratboy Republicans snickering because they have us at each other's throats and giving each other high-fives.

[rumguy]

39. I am a paid operative of the RNC

you caught me...

just kidding...I'm just a political junkie with some time on my hands...

[Upfront]

58. Kool Aid

Join us for some Dean kool aid in michigan this weekend. It is refreshing! lol

[Eloriel]

45. Only several times a day, Madison

In fact, I'm sure of it.

Eloriel

[madfloridian]

75. Yes, we know that.

However, if we point it out, we get deleted.

[Myra]

33. Uh, I don't think that's unique to Dean

Case in point:
General Clark.

Plus, the only faction in the US that isn't
polarized is the right. And that's 'cause
they're reading from a script, on topic,
always on topic. Chanting Orwellian lies
until they're Orwellian "facts."

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

36. What is your evidence that he is divisive?

If it is DU, this is a political message board...of course there will be some vociferous advocacy from all candidate's camps.

He can be controversial, but I am not certain that is a bad thing. I didn't care for the manner in which he used the confederate flag statements but I did agree with his point. I find that controversial but not necessarily divisive...in fact, it opened up a conversation that needs to be had.

All Dem candidates will be perceived as divisive at some point. Our nation s very divided right now.

[rumguy]

43. I agree with you

as a Democrat...and one who would vote for anyone over Bush, even Leiberman...I'm just amazed at the bickering I see in here.

I just wonder if this will carry into the general election. I don't think it will.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

50. The bickering is because people are upset, see the direction we are headed

want change and don't agree on which tack to take in order to accomplish that change. That certainly wasn't CAUSED accelerated nor exacerbated by Dean. he got an early start, created grass roots support via the internet and has been effective. He actually RAISED the bar for the kind of campaign we are having and got people involved.

I base his results solely on what he does...not what his advocates do.

Thanks for the response, though. Using DU as a source for news and information can be great. Using it as a litmus test for how a candidate plays out to the nation is less reliable since we are BOUND to be a biased source....it's the nature of the game.



NSMA aka Captain Morgan Girl :D

[tsipple]

41. Dean Is Polarizing to Four People

1. Kerry
2. Gephardt
3. John Edwards

Wesley Clark, Carol Moseley-Braun, Dennis Kucinich, Al Sharpton, and Joe Lieberman don't seem to mind Howard Dean too much.

As for the rest of America, where measured in polls Dean has the highest favorables of any Democratic candidate.

But the press likes drama and conflict -- and will invent it if they need to. And there are three people (listed above) that don't like Howard Dean very much right now.

On edit: The fourth person is Teresa Heinz Kerry. She doesn't like Dean much, either.

[TLM]

46. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

You have to love that bashers attack Dean endlessly... when one attack fails to stick they just launch a new cheaper attack. They keep trying so hard to attack him, and after they've fired off everything they've got and still have no effect, they resort to calaiming DEAN is polarizing?

Basicaly blaming Dean for the fact that bashers are bashing him.

[rumguy]

51. I don't see how you could construe what I said as bashing...

I like Dean, I like him A LOT, ok?

I simply asked a question...we have to able to discuss our concerns and issues without being called bashers, etc.

[tinanator]

64. rest assured

the real anti-war, anti-corporate/fascist, pro peace activists have little or no faith in Dean's direction, no matter how it is misrepresented by the faithful. The old "single issue voter" rubric is a hard one to accept, but when it comes to War, count me in. When it comes to Dean, get serious, he aint the peace candidate. Nothing makes me choke harder than people repeating the absurd mantra that "he is the only candidate that voted against the Iraq war".
How many lies in that one sentence? Ive heard it repeatedly, and it always has me reaching for the butterfly net.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

69. True..especially since Bob Graham voted against the resolution

and didn't even get a peep.

[Forkboy]

66. I defended Dean a lot TLM

but if this is a "bash" of Dean it's the tamest one you'll ever see.You're being overly defensive imo.

[Classical_Liberal]

47. He doesn't piss off the base

He pisses off beltway dems that care more about themselves than the party.

[gristy]

48. You make an assertion in your thread title

and then you provide absolutely no basis for the assertion. :wtf:

[rumguy]

57. My assertion

is just an opinion, based on what I've read in here and from conversations with friends.

I don't even know if I really think he's polarizing...

My post was really just a question about all the in-fighting going on...

I should have worded it better.

For the record, I like Dean, a lot.

[Upfront]

56. You Don't Like Dean

Vote for B****. Hmmmmmmm

[madfloridian]

67. Ah, that "polarizing" byte is from N. Solomon, I do believe.

I thought that had already been done.

Yes, I am a "dyed in the wool Dean supporter", and this kind of stuff makes me more so.

I would recommend some folks to visit some other blogs now and then. That is just a random thought.

[IronLionZion]

70. I'm an independent and I support Dean

as well as Clark. Whoever wins will have to rally people and get them fired up to beat Bush.

[maggrwaggr]

73. The democrats aren't used to having a LEADER

like Dean and they don't know what to make of it.

This is leadership, folks. Get used to it.

[onebigbadwulf]

74. No one can piss dems off more than

Bushie.



"Anyone but bush". Anyone who would vote for a 3rd party is unamerican.

[Cleita]

76. He's not pissing off any of the Democratic base just you evidently.

When strong supporters, like you, stab him in the back, I don't think it is very sincere.

[arewethereyet]

78. yes, he will allienate much of the base but do great with indies

however a goodly portion of that base will pull the 'D' lever anyway just as they always do. He will not inspire the portion of the base that requires inspiration to get off their arses and vote. This can be mitigated as is generally done with heroic effort of the party.

I think he is most vunerable in the election because he is just not "presidential".

[PassingFair]

79. I take issue with this...

The same "not presdential" argument could have (and was) made concerning Abraham Lincoln, too. I have met Dean twice now, and plan on hearing him speak again tomorrow. On both occasions, he took the time to listen to everyone's ideas and well wishes. I love the fact that he's NOT larger than life.
I have faith in his humanity.