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Salon: Kennedy, Vietnam and Iraq (JFK had decided to withdraw fr. Vietnam)

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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-03 12:16 AM
Original message
Salon: Kennedy, Vietnam and Iraq (JFK had decided to withdraw fr. Vietnam)
Fairly persuasive evidence of JFK's intent to withdraw. Discusses Johnson's efforts to stop nuclear escalation and, for those who are interested, there are a few paragraphs on the assassination. Worth getting a day pass if you don't have a subscription.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/11/22/vietnam/index.html

In the Vietnam case, events took an ugly turn, beginning in November 1963, and spun out of control thereafter. As that happened, Kennedy's exit strategy disappeared from history for decades. What will happen to us in Iraq remains to be seen. To be sure, there are those who wanted us in and do not want us to leave; their next move will be interesting to watch. Now, as then, the government is divided, and neither faction is anxious to lose. So it is worthwhile to read the history of Kennedy and Vietnam now, partly for its own sake, partly for general lessons about neocolonial war, and partly with a view to understanding how the questions of national security and domestic politics play out in Washington.

I believe the evidence now available shows that Kennedy had decided, in early October of 1963, to begin withdrawing 17,000 U.S. military advisers then in Vietnam. One thousand were leave by the end of 1963; the withdrawal was scheduled to be completed by the end of 1965. After that, only a military assistance contingent would have remained. The withdrawal planning was carried out under cover of an official optimism about the war, with a view toward increasing the effort and training the South Vietnamese to win by themselves. But Kennedy and McNamara did not share this optimism. They were therefore prepared to press the withdrawal even when the assessments turned bad, as they started to do in the early fall of 1963. This was a decision to withdraw without victory if necessary, indeed without negotiations or conditions. In a recent essay in Boston Review, I assemble this evidence in detail.

<edit>

Now comes McNamara, with confirmation of Newman's argument and the flat statement that there exists a tape as proof. ... . It might be added that McNamara is on record as far back as July, 1986 confirming Kennedy's decision to withdraw, in an oral history closely held since then by the Kennedy Library. McNamara's oral history also makes plain, though his book fudges the issue, that Kennedy's decision was based on McNamara's own recommendation to withdraw in spite of the fact that the U.S. was losing the war."

<edit>

Did Lyndon Johnson participate in a plot to kill Kennedy? Though this view is getting play on cable television this week, I don't believe he did. Was Castro or Khrushchev involved? Of course not. Did Lee Harvey Oswald fire three shots, from an old rifle, along a difficult line of sight, striking Kennedy at least twice and Texas Governor John Connally at least once, as well as a bystander some distance away? No serious person can believe that, either. And so? A great many people since have attempted to solve the mysteries of Dallas on Nov. 22, 1963. Some of this work is useless, some is dishonest; jumping to conclusions is the occupational disease of the genre. But much is valuable. And there are millions of pages of official records now in the public domain. The problem facing the historian now is how to assemble the whole body of evidence in a compelling way, taking account of both the conspiracy (for, once one rejects the lone gunman hypothesis, that is what it was), and the coverup. The task requires both narrative power and analytical precision; jigsaw puzzles properly assembled only fit one way.

more...
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-03 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
1. This Has Been Oliver Stone's Contention for Years.
Plausible. It's hard to know.

Diem was assassinated by the CIA just weeks before Kennedy was killed in Dallas. That has always bothered me.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-03 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. It's a lot more than "plausible"...
NSAM 263
signed by JFK on October 11, 1963
<http://www.jfklancer.com/NSAM263.html>

Excerpt:

"The President approved the military recommendations contained in Section I B (1-3) of the report, but directed that no formal announcement be made of the implementation of plans to withdraw 1,000 U.S. military personnel by the end of 1963."

This was the first step in JFK's plan to withdraw all U.S. troops by the end of 1965.
==================================

NSAM 273
signed by LBJ on November 26, 1963
<http://www.jfklancer.com/NSAM273.html>

Excerpt:

"1. It remains the central object of the United States in South Vietnam to assist the people and Government of that country to win their contest against the externally directed and supported Communist conspiracy. The test of all U.S. decisions and actions in this area should be the effectiveness of their contribution to this purpose."

This NSAM reverses the course of action directed by JFK in NSAM 263, and only four days after his assassination. As of that point in time, the U.S. became combat allies of South Vietnam, and ceased to be advisors.

===================================

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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-03 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. I'm With You.
I posted those very same NSAM's here recently.

Still, JFK did take the number of advisors from hundreds to over 10,000 after Eisenhower's term.

The assassination of Diem and Kennedy's role in it seems to me to be the key to knowing for sure what his intentions were. Did Kennedy actively push for killing Diem or did he just OK it? The closeness of the two assassinations is just to coincidental for me to ignore.

I don't know what Kennedy's truest intentions were. I wish we could find out more somehow.

I do believe firmly, as I have posted here for years, that Allen Dulles' fingerprints are everywhere one turns in all of this---even after Kennedy fired him.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-03 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #4
12. See my post #11.
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preciousdove Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-03 12:21 AM
Response to Original message
2. I was 16 years old and...
living in a Minnesota suburb when I figured this out using the school library. Now that the rest of the country is waking up, are we going to do about it?
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Demoiselle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-03 01:02 AM
Response to Original message
5. Anybody catch Ted Sorensen with Wolf today?
JFK's speech writer was on Blitzer's show, appearing with other Kennedy era people and, when asked by Wolf if Kennedy's assassination had changed the world, said yes indeed it had...and cited among other things the Kennedy plan to withdraw from Viet Nam. Blitzer huffled and fuffled a bit and contradicted Sorensen with a "but...most experts agree that Kennedy had no plans to pull out.." (something like that, anyway.)
I am pleased to report that Sorensen leaped down Wolfie's throat at that point, clearly very angry, saying "Oh...I didn't realize you were there, Mr. Blitzer! I WAS, and didn't see you around at the time.."...and reiterated his contention about the Kennedy plan. Blitzer was clearly knocked off his perch and managed to come close to a sheepish apology, admitting that, in fact, he was in junior high school at the time.
It was great. I was in college during the Kennedy presidency and I still haven't recovered from the loss. Watching the current batch of loons drag our country over a cliff makes me feel that loss all over again. There's been a well orchestrated move to completely destroy JFK's reputation..but I for one believe that he and his brother saved us from a nuclear war during the Cuban missile crisis and would surely have begun to see the folly of Viet Nam even as early as l963.
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-03 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Wish I Could Have Seen That.
n/t
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Demoiselle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-03 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. ..There's more...
First Blitzer questioned a man whose name I didn't get about the assassination itself and elicited from him extremely graphic details about wounds...THEN Wolf turned to Sorensen (speaking from Boston) got no response and said that they had "technical problems with the Sorensen link." When they got him on air Ted immediately said "There was no technical problem...the problem was mine. I could not listen to the graphic description of President Kennedy's wounds so I pulled my earpiece out of my ear."
It made me get a little weepy.
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-03 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Wow.
Thanks Demoiselle. Ted!
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hedda_foil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-03 01:34 AM
Response to Original message
9. Wow! This article is by James Galbraith!!!!
He's the son of John Kenneth Galbraith who was a major scholar and ambassador to Vietnam under Kennedy. This Galbraith is also a heavily credentialed scholar and the research in this piece is first person and top notch.

He nails the reason why the Warren Commission was a coverup, btw.
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tlb Donating Member (611 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-03 01:58 AM
Response to Original message
10. A decision to withdraw would not have required murdering Diem.
That Diem was murdered weeks before Dallas in a plot approved by JFK indicated more strongly then the self serving apologies of Macnamara that the US had every intention to impose and dictate its control over the RVN government.

Macnamara is an old man rightfully afraid of hell I think. He has worked very hard for a long time to shift the responsibility unto others for the disaster he did so much to create.

The "best and the brightest" were neither.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-03 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Maybe this will cause you to change your mind about JFK...
...allegedly approving Diem's assassination.

JFK and the Diem Coup
<http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB101/>

Excerpt of headline:

"JFK TAPE DETAILS HIGH-LEVEL VIETNAM COUP PLOTTING IN 1963;

DOCUMENTS SHOW NO THOUGHT OF DIEM ASSASSINATION;

U.S. OVERESTIMATED INFLUENCE ON SAIGON GENERALS."



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Monkey see Monkey Do Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-03 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. Excellent link --- & also not forgetting that
E Howard Hunt & G Gordon Liddy spent some time forging State Department cables to implicate JFK in the Diem assassination, as part of their "Plumber" role in the early 70's.
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