What Will it Take to End the Extreme Partisan Hatred?

[bobd]

The left and the right seem more polarized now than at any other time in my life (I'm 52 years old). I myself have come to actually hate conservatives. I find myself wishing them extreme pain and suffering. I blame them for the problems that the country, and now the world, are experiencing. For the first time in my life I can actually understand the emotions that lead to centuries of hatred and conflict - in Ireland, in the Balkans, etc. Do these populations feel what I feel? I know there are those on the right that feel the same seductive emotions as I've described in myself.

I fear we're rapidly coming to a point at which this hatred will find expression in the streets. I'm ashamed to admit that part of me wants that; to have it out once and for all, no holds barred. I don't think it will take much to trigger such a societal explosion of violence born of pent-up rage. From my vantage point I don't see how the hatred can be cooled sufficiently to resolve our differences rationally. Perhaps some of you do see a path back to rationality, mutual respect for political differences, and compromise.

I'm interested in other's viewpoints on this. What do you all think?

Bob D.

[joeybee12]

1. Yeah, I'm as polarized as ever

But if you look at what the Repukes did in the House last night to ram through that medicar scam, I don't think the partianship will end any time soon, and I don't think it should. I think the Dem leadership needs to fight back, and if it means fighting at their level, so be it. That's the only thing the Repukes understand, and maybe the only thing that will get their attention.

Can't see fighting in the streets--keep it to the halls of Congress.

[NORML Christian]

2. "What Will it Take to End the Extreme Partisan Hatred?"

All that hate's going to burn you up, man. Have a smoke and listen to Jesus. He said to love your enemies and you will heap burning coals on their heads. Take it easy, man- you'll have health problems over it, and there's nothing FReepers would like better.

[Terwilliger]

6. when the right-wing nutballs listen to Jesus, we all can too

until then, fuck it

[LeahMira]

9. Sorry, but...

Have a smoke and listen to Jesus. He said to love your enemies and you will heap burning coals on their heads.

... that just doesn't cut it. I don't wish any painful diseases or whatever on any of the ultra-right, but loving them would be a betrayal of everything decent. In a better sort of place, those of us who abhor what they stand for would be able to simply stay away from them, but when they are running the country there's not much choice but to stand up to them and fight back.

[vi5]

3. I hate to say this but the only thing that will end it...

Is a republican or Democrat in the presidency who gets caught unequivically doing something that is without ambiguity, regarded by the large majority of the american public to be evil and wrong. I'm not talking about a blow job which a slight majority feels was wrong, or even the corrupt maneuverings of bushco which a slight majority feel was and is wrong. I'm talking about something with irrefutable evidence and something that no person no matter how partisan, will be able to forgive. At that point one of the parties will be so damaged by this as to be rendered obsolete.

It's pathetic that this is the case but it is unfortunately the way I see it.

[Hamlette]

49. happened to Nixon

"regarded by the large majority...as evil and wrong"

his own party told him to resign

We were right back at it within weeks.

Thinks were like this in the 60s. This is part of the backlash.

[rucky]

4. We were united for about a week or so in September, 2001

the media, country singers & political/business opportunists killed that one pretty quick.

It may take another tragedy of 9/11 magnitude - under a REAL leader - to bring us back together. I'm not sure if it's worth it (except for the real leader part).

[leesa]

20. You mean we were deluded for about a week or so.

Most were in such shock that they believed the lies the fascist Buah and company were telling them. Blaming people for the event without any investigation whatsoever into the event. Many still believe the original lies, despite no proof whatsoever.

[liberalmuse]

5. More personal interaction with them.

I have a wingnut co-worker--or so she believes. She votes Republican and loves Hannity (Rush has fallen out of favor). She is actually very open-minded but believes she is a staunch conservative, which, IMHO, is blatantly false. Granted, she could pass for a wingnut at face value, because she will do the exasperating albeit generic wingnut rant at you, but after having many conversations with her, I've noticed she has a liberal perspective on most issues. Her family is wingnut (and I'm beginning to see this as a very bigotted word I use often)--and she is essentially considered the rebel, though she lumps herself in with them.

I do hate conservatives--that is, the conservative stereotype that exists in my head--a fat, pasty-faced, greedy white man and his good 'ol boy network of cronies doing a territorial pissing on the planet and laughing about it, or bleached blond, anorexic women sporting too much make-up and draped in furs--but in all honesty, that stereotype only fits a minute portion of the conservative base. The more realistic conservative is a much more complicated mix of some liberal and mostly conservative ideas about things, and isn't nearly as repulsive as my stereotype. Many conservatives aren't greedy or evil--they truly believe that conservatism stands for all things good in the world. It's much easier to have a simple black or white image of 'The Conservative', but it isn't honest, or healthy.

[liberalmuse]

16. I should add something...

Yesterday at work a few of use were discussing how tired we are of hearing personal opinions from newsreaders--we just want the information. It then morphed into how the news today has gotten so abrasive and mostly what we hear is unqualified opinions about matters--especially on tv. I mentioned that I could care less what Ann Coulter thinks. My conservative co-worker asked who she was, and I told her a few things Coulter has said, such as her rant about 'killling liberals' in so many words. My co-worker said, 'She's right!' and then laughed and said she was kidding. I don't believe she was kidding, by the way. That was disturbing, coming from someone I like, but who is obviously harboring a hatred for liberals she's gotten from listening to right wing radio.

I oftentimes truly hate conservatives, or rather, the conservative agenda and the bullies who are pushing it, but I constantly check myself. I know my hatred stems from fear, frustration and anger at what I feel are policies harmful to the human race as a whole. I mentally chastise myself when I start dehumanizing another human being because of their ideals or my ideals. Could conservatives harboring similar stereotypes about liberals say the same thing? I really don't know, but I suspect not.

[Dogmudgeon]

7. Aversion to conflict and action ... ?

Hate is counterproductive. It's what happens when you get riled up by something unjust, and then don't do anything about it. That's what you describe as "pent up rage". And it can be cured by political/community action. IMHO.

I think a lot of people are simply afraid. There's nothing wrong with fear, but think about how much better you'll feel, and how much better politics will be when you start getting active.

I don't hate Republicans. I do stuff. I don't march in the streets, chant slogans, or put myself at risk of police action, but I do stuff to "spread the word". Mostly, I use the laser printer and copier to make little handbills and cards that I discreetly "hide" in the local Wal-Marts and grocery stores. Since I live near a Naval base, it makes raising the awareness of members of the Armed Forces (to Bush's military desertion) easy.

But that might not be your thing. Letters to editors, contacting local leaders, volunteering for the local Democratic Party, etc., might be more up your alley.

Engagement is far better than self-entrapment. Figure out something politically productive to do, preferably without having to depend on someone else for ongoing direction, then do it.

No, it isn't as simple as it reads, but it's a lot easier than festering in hatred.

--bkl

[lemon lime]

14. I agree!

Let's walk down memeory lane. In the 90's when Bill Clinton was up for re-election, the conservatives were in a position of hate for him that we are in now for Bush. The repubs could not argue with the economy, so they attacked Clinton on his behaivior. They had no ideas of their own as to how to improve what could not really be improved on. They put forward the notion of Bob Dole. A weak if not the only candidate they had.
They were so into the "anyone but Clinton" thing. The hate.
Dole lost. Clinton wins.
Unless we wake up and smell the history, we too will lose and wonder what happened. Wee need to give the fence sitters the choice between Bush and someone else WHO ACTUALLY HAS A PLAN and not just hate.

When you talk about the House and Senate, remember again how we used to operate when we were in the majority. They are only doing it now. Is our entire platform based on the fact that we are no longer in the majority, so we don't like how they are doing what we have done? That is such a poor excuse for a political party as I have ever heard.

We need to start making sense that is not so radical. Nothing happens too quickly in this country that any one president or party can make too big a difference that it can't be undone in latter, more reasonable times.

We need to stop the hate and sit down and re-read the roadmap. We are getting more and more lost. We are putting up candidates that a majority of people can't honestly vote for. I know of many repubs who voted for Clinton. They will not vote for Dean. They will vote for Bush. We have not given them any other choice with our hate and the slogan " anyone but Bush". We need to make more sense than that. Give them new ideas and real policies that work.

[Lars39]

22. Bogus! You're glossing over the fact that there are REAL life and

death reasons for that hate. Bush is easily the most hated man in the world for many concrete reasons. Education of the ignorant is the key.
Unfortunately, not all of the knowledge will be "book learnin'", many of the newly opened eyes will be from deaths of loved ones, via the war or lack of medicines due to the medicare fiasco that is going on right now. The only way to get rid of this particular hate is to get rid of the source.

[FlaGranny]

8. Bob, this

grandmother in her 60s has to admit to the same feelings you do. I also, for the first time in my life actually "understand" those things. I don't like the feeling. This must be the way those in conquered countries feel about their conquerors.

For some time now, I have been somewhat afraid to state my opinions in public. Americans shouldn't be afraid to voice their opinions. Our constitution doesn't seem to mean much anymore.

I've always been a Democrat, but never before have I felt hatred toward anyone. Now, my feelings are very close to hatred - hatred and fear. I felt a tiny bit of fear during the Nixon administration, but nothing like this until the 2000 election. I'm starting to feel oppressed - yes, that's the word. Every day since the coup has been worse than the day before. Sometimes I feel like there is no hope.

It is quite evident that there are enough people in this country who hate us and who are quite willing to put on their helmets and boots and beat us over the head and throw us in jail. Some of them are our neighbors and they have the same potential as the prison guards at the German concentration camps of WW2. There is no shortage of people like this the world over. All it takes to bring them out is what we have now, a near dictatorship.

I have a fear that the great experiment is about to come crashing down around us. I fear for my children and my grandchildren. I HATE THIS FEELING.

I don't know if there IS a way back. I certainly hope there is. I have never wished anything but good on the world, our country, our neighbors. I think (I pray) that most people feel the same way.

The only thing I can say is that I think we have a long, long road in front of us, and I'll probably not live long enough to see peace and prosperity again.

Edit: Despite this morose post, I AM a basically optimistic person, but still, I have to admit to this feeling of opression - which, I guess, doesn't actually equate to hate. I don't think I'm genetically able to really hate.

[buddhamama]

10. not sure we can stop the hatred or the ensuing battle

and i don't think we should.

the hatred yes, should be put aside but, the issues we're battling over should not.

the future direction of our country, and the lives of millions, hang in the balance.

the battle doesn't have to be violent.
strength is not shown through violence
but through conviction of principled ideals.

[11 Bravo]

11. Perhaps we could start by actually electing our next president.

* promised to "change the tone" in Washington, and no one can deny that he has done so. The atmosphere in this town is poisonous, much more so than at any time in my memory.

[kyrasdad]

12. BareKnuckledLiberal hit it on the head...

I don't think it's so much hate as it is fear. I fear what the right wing wants to do to this country. They speak so eloquently about freedom, but yet, allof their policies and ideals fly in the face of that. However, on the flip side of things, I'm sure their hatred is fear also, fear of the unknown, because we as liberals want to progress, and move on from the status quo. The right also, I'm guessing has a morbid fear of losing thier power. I mean, lets face it, the straight, christian, white, old men have been in power since the beginning, and looking accross the aisle to our side what do they see?

We know where we came from, and we're afraid to go back which the right wants us to do. They're afraid of what's in store should we really get the power to change things.

Until we do gain the upper hand an actually change things for good, nothing is ever going to change between the two sides, until they see that everyone being equal is in fact family values and American.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

13. total destruction of PNAC and the neocons!.....only then can we get back

to our regular disputes with the GOP

[Mountainman]

15. When the middle class wing nuts finally figure out they screwed the pooch

The leaders of the conservatives do not have the best interests of the average wingnut at heart. They use them to gain power but then shit all over them. The Medicare bill will hurt the senior wing nut just as bad as it hurts the senior Dem. The environment that's getting trashed is the same environment the wingnuts and Dems live in.

It will take till the average working class wingnuts hurts enough to see that they screwed the pooch and then we will come together again. Of course we will all be screwed too but maybe we can build a better world for our grand kids.

I have given up on the idea that we are building a better world for ourselves but I am working for those who come after me.

[lemon lime]

17. You see? we need new tactics and ideas

These are the same things they say about us. What good is it going to do to say " I know you are, but what am I?"
We need new ideas. We need new ways to find some compromise and thus acceptability with larger numbers of people.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

19. what do you mean...like DLC dems...middle of the raod? that means death

[lemon lime]

24. What I mean is that our hate speeches are

scaring away many of the moderates that usually vote with us.
They are seemingly less afraid of the repubs right now. How can you explain that? We need to step back and take another look at our strategies. Why are they voting and electing republicans in California for example?

[ElsewheresDaughter]

41. it is the repukes that spew vitorial hatred.....

... sounds like Rove talking points..."the left needs to tone it down they are scaring the moderates away" repeat....repeat....repeat

[Classical_Liberal]

42. Well it was a moderate dem at the new republican

that started the hate meme, so what are you talking about?

[AntiCoup2K4]

47. They didn't vote for a Republican in Collie-fornea

They voted for a celebrity movie star superhero. Most of those people didn't vote for "Arnold Schwarzenegger, puppet of the Bush Criminal Empire". They voted for "The Terminator".

However, that DOES illustrate who the real enemy is. The corporate media. You know how many people out there actually believe that Junior WON the debates against Al Gore, even though all the Idiot did was read scripted answers from cue cards?? And they believe it because the drones on FAUX, MSRNC, and CNN told them so. We must find an effective way to counter the corporate media spin in the 2004 campaign, because they have already been given their assignment: Elect Junior. For real this time.

[Terwilliger]

51. California was about Davis...and let me ask you...

if our "hate speech" is scaring the moderates away, wouldn't "hate speech" from the right scare those moderates away? why or why not?

[kentuck]

18. A fish rots from the head first.

Need i say more?

[loudsue]

21. Some leading repukes need to be criminally prosecuted and jailed

There have been so many illegal acts performed by that group in the past 8 years, it would be hard to decide where to start.

Too bad the criminal courts and officers of the law are part of the same group who needs to be prosecuted.

:kick:

[bhunt70]

23. I wrote a long rant on this but then deleted it.

In short I think that both sides have to evolve from being "republican", "democrat", "liberal", "conservative" first.

Second I think that each side should realize that the label the other side wears is just that, and like any label usually doesn't do justice to what the whole person is about.

Then they have to once again realize that their first priority is to do whats right for america and that both sides have the same goal but different paths. Learning to compromise is key.

Extremism on both sides widens this gap. For instance, my wife hates republicans, even though her uncle, her step father, and a few other people in her family are republican. She is quicker to ignore them than to give them the benefit of the doubt as people who love her. Which I personally think is wrong.

Im not a moderate, I am much more liberal, but I definately think taking each individual, each circumstance, and each argument at its own value and the value to which it is better for America or the world, is critical.

[lemon lime]

25. These are the very ideas and attitudes that I am talking about

in my previous posts.
I agree with you. Why then do some consider the middle road to be the death of liberals?

[Lars39]

33. Because the Democratic party has steadily been shifted to the right

with the result that one can't see the differences between the 2 parties very easily. The result being whistlass in the WH.

[bhunt70]

39. but what if the right shifted more to the middle?

would that be ok?

Seems like a dichotomy, both sides need to realize that they aren't always right.

[Lars39]

43. The right isn't shifting to the middle, though, and won't with fascism

in place.

[AntiCoup2K4]

52. The right CLAIMED to be shifting to the middle in 2000, but they lied

Junior campaigned as a moderate "compassionate conservative", which no doubt got him enough swing votes to bring the election close enough to steal in Florida.

And while I'd never be a fan of the Bush family, I will concede that if he had indeed been the kind of pResident he campaigned as, America probably would have survived 4 years of him without too much pain.

But it was all a lie - far from being moderate, compassionate or centrist, the asshole who "won the election" by ONE vote (whether you go by electoral or the Supreme Court) stacked his cabinet with extremist, recationary, neo-con fascists.

So you cannot trust the Republicans to go to the middle. They have gone so far to the right since 1980 that Barry Goldwater, considered the fringe of conservatism in 1964, would be a "left leaning centrist" compared to the PNAC'ers.

[Lindacooks]

26. I don't think the hatred is going away

any time soon. The Repukes set the standard by constantly attacking President Clinton instead of conducting the business of the country. Then, stealing the election in 2000 really was the frosting on the cake. Repukes continue to try to marginalize Democratic legislators with any dirty trick possible. As long as they are so extreme, we will be furious and hate them and what they are doing.

[tom_paine]

27. Victory in 2004, and even then I'm not sure...

You think the $1,000,000,000 infrastructure of Party-Loyal Right-Wing Sub-Media and the multi-billion dollar Corporate TV Pravda who follows where the sub-media leads is going away?

You think the people purposefully propagandized into a suiggestible and malleable state by Goebbels v2.0 from the Sub-Media and lie-laundry to Totalitarian Radio are going away?

Far from that, they are being conditioned for something far worse, I fear.

Face it, we are surrounded by "The Matrix", a fantasy bubble that Hitler and Stalin would have envied for it's subtlety and strength, and that isn't going away either.

There are only two ways this can end I fear, though I pray I am wrong. The first is the total transition into Totalitarian Orwellian Empire that is already quite far along. THAT will put and end to partisna bickering the same way the Old Soviet Union suppressed internecine strife.

By the time Imperial Amerika is ruled by Emperor Ahnold and Emperor George P. Caligua, the fear and bubbling anger that we feel here at DU will be shared by nearly all the Impeial Subjects who aren't employed by the Imperial Sturmtruppen Industry and all it's related propaganda indutries and Ministries.

And Amerika will be the perfect Empire, with it's economically deprived, poorly educated lower 90% who will fill there grist mills with soldiers, OHS men and other monsters without which an Empire cannot function nor keep it's people squashed and silent and afraid.

The other option: Civil War.

[IndianaGreen]

28. We can always secede from the Union and join Canada

If Bush "wins" in 2004, there could be a move by the more liberal Northern and Western states to secede from this Unholy Union. Who would want to be part of a country in which the Constitution has been changed to make gays second class citizens, ban abortion, and force the posting of the Ten Commandments and the saying of prayers in public schools.

Who wants to be part of a Nazified America?

[tom_paine]

29. Don't you think the Busheviks are dying to "General Sherman" us?

Trust me, not only won't organized state secession work, no one will have the balls to try it because everyone still remembers what that would mean.

Trust me on this one, as well, in the aftremath of such a fight, Recostruction would be a brutal, facsist affair and nothing like the way the South was let off the hook post-Civil War I.

No, this nation is going to live or die as one, one way or the other.

[IndianaGreen]

48. I'm not about to die for this country!

I am no longer the same foolish, idealist that enlisted to join those that had no choice on the matter. And I will definitely won't make the same mistake the German Jews made in the 1930s and wait until it was too late to escape. I will leave this country behind and go to a country that values freedom.

[Brucey]

30. I agree with most of the comments here.

I believe this is the most polarized the country has been since Vietnam. I hate conservatives and won't even talk to members of my family who support them. I don't think it will end in my lifetime or for a long time after that. I believe only a revolution will end the polarization, and I believe that is impossible. The conservatives already openly talk about killing liberals, and perhaps that is what it will come to. I feel that is what is happening in Iraq, Afghanistan, and other places in the world. The Bush admin seems to think they can just kill everyone who disagrees with them and the only ones left will all get along. Perhaps they are right. Eventually, of course, the US and UK militaries will kill all of their enemies and a lot of innocent bystanders. It might take 5 years or more. Of course, more terrorists will be created in the process. Where will it all end? It seems terribly likely that we are faced with 5 more years of W, and then 8 years of Jeb or someone like him. They control the media and the voting. How can they lose? Lots of liberals are talking about moving to Canada (I am one of them), but Canada won't be far behind the US. The rich corporations will eventually take over there like they did here... government, media, schools, churches, etc. They pretty much control everything except a small branch of the arts (the theater has more freedom of speech than anyone... but no one goes!).

[rumguy]

31. A new and better media

I really feel it's the media which is behind the current mess we find ourselves in.

[aquart]

32. Don't be silly. George is a uniter, not a divider.

Either you hate or you roll over and let them kick you while you're down.

Or do you think you can fight fascism in white gloves?

[Deja Q]

34. I agree with you

Keeping bush* in power will create anarchy.

Putting in centrist democrats will only elongate the period.

Having a total sweep and cleanout of the fith in our government with FOR THE PEOPLE candidates such as Kucinich and most members of the Green party actually won't help in the short term because 1/3rd the public will then be as mad as us while another 20-30% will side their way because they're brainwashed to think that the media is still too liberal, amongst everything else. :eyes:

This time, I don't think there's a path back to rationality. Or, rather, there is, but it's a very LONG and winding path...

[LittleApple81]

35. On my part it is not HATE it is COMMON SENSE. The time to

try to appease and see "the other side" is gone. They attack without mercy or reason. They are on a power grab that will leave the US wounded, divided, and the lower classes lower than even and without recourse.

[Sweetpea]

36. The celebrity of Coulter, Hannity and Rush types

has given power to that mindset. They have helped make it glamorous and in vogue. So until there is some balancing act from the name calling and pointing of fingers, I don't see an end.

[ljm2002]

37. What it will take

...is for the moderates and left to fight back hard against the extreme right. Remember: (a) fighting back is not the same as hatred; in fact, *not* fighting back is more likely to make members of the left feel hatred, as the powerless often feel hatred at what they cannot control; (b) fighting back makes the other side respect you, if not like you; as long as you don't fight back the bullies feel nothing but utter contempt for you which merely serves to feed their hatred; and (c) there is no chance that the extreme right will stop their hatred of all who are to the left of Tom DeLay. No chance whatsoever. We live in a time when right wing vitriol such as that practiced by Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter saturates the airwaves and the best seller lists -- Ann, of course, has resurrected the specter of McCarthyism by openly espousing his views and claiming that he was a good guy, not a bad guy.

We have fallen very far.

A few years ago I asked a friend when it started, this slide into "fascism lite". She opined that it started with the assassination of JFK. I hadn't really considered it that way; but now, with all that I have learned since then, and all that I have learned on this very board, I believe she was right on the money. That was the beginning of the push by the shadow government and the right wing thugs to kill the so-called "counter-culture". I can't prove it, but I honestly believe they had JFK, RFK and MLK assassinated because those were leaders who actually inspired the populace -- and any form of populism is their deepest fear (that's why Buchanan is not a member of the "in" crowd these days -- he may be a right wing bigot, but he's a populist, and our corporatist fascist regime is having none of *that*, thank yew very much).

Enough rant for one Saturday morning...

[tom_paine]

38. Yes...JFK, RFK, MLK all killed by Busheviks

In 1000 years it will be as clear to those people unencumbered by the denials and prejudiecs of today.

As clear as it was who and why everyone who was between Tiberius and the Roman Imperial Throne died or was banished, even Augustus himself in the end.

[ljm2002]

56. Agree completely

In even 50 or 100 years, it will be crystal clear what went on. Right now we are too much in it. Right now, it is too easy for people to say there are parallels between the right wing hatred of Clinton and the left wing hatred of Bush. What they miss, of course, is the basis (or lack of same) for the hatred. Clinton was actively investigated for all the years he was in office, and they found that he had an illicit affair. Bush runs the most secretive administration since Nixon and no one dares to investigate even one of the smelly deals he has been involved in, from Harken to the numerous conflicts of interest of the current administration to Cheney's energy meetings to the pre-9/11 put options to the fighters that were not scrambled on 9/11 -- you get the idea.

The fact is, the positions are not parallel. I'm not saying that everything bad we suspect about Bush and his team are correct; I am saying that we have many more facts to support our position on this than the right had against Clinton. Yes, my feelings are as visceral against Bush as theirs were (and still are) against Clinton. But my feelings are based on more factual information.

And before anyone goes accusing me of knee jerk responses, please understand something. When 9/11 happened, my feelings of patriotism came to the forefront in a big way. I felt a distress for those killed, and a deep love of my country and its ideals. I supported invading Afghanistan, not as an act of vengeance, but because I thought we could not wait for an international police action to bring down the Al Qaeda scum who were ensconced there. In the event, though, it became clear that my ideas and the Bush team's ideas of how to effectively fight terror were a bit different...

I had been willing to give Bush my support after 9/11, believing him to be sincere in his response to this horrific act. Certainly he said some of the right things about not viewing all Muslims as terrorists and about not taking it out on our fellow Americans of Arabic descent. But after Afghanistan, I started taking a closer look. I came to DU, I heard about the "trifecta" remarks, I started following all of the 9/11 stuff (his non-action at Booker Elementary; the put options; no jets scrambled; no investigation; etc., etc.). And it started falling into place.

I make no apology for my hatred of Bush and his cronies. It is a well considered hatred. What I feel is based on my own research, and on corroborated facts about who he is and what he represents. I can't prove anything about various assassinations, but I've seen the Booker video. I've listened to the testimony of the 9/11 wives before the commission. I've followed the whole obscene buildup to the invasion of Iraq -- from Andy Card's acknowledgment that it was a marketing campaign, to the disgusting dissembling they used to justify what was a foregone conclusion, to their use of Shock and Awe. These people are wrong, evil and bad, and they need to be stopped if there is any hope that we will get our country back. And right now, I'm not at all certain that we will succeed.

Now that was a rant!

[tom_paine]

75. That was quite a rant, but not really a rant, it was well said.

And I share your feelings about most of it.

[Kitsune]

40. Civil War, part Deux

They ain't gonna give up, but neither the hell am I. *hugs the Constitution*

Thomas Jefferson said (paraphrasing mightily here) that every so often you gotta have a revolution in order to maintain freedom. Depressing outlook on life, yes, but the more I look at the world around me today the more I think the bastard was probably right. God dammit.

This will probably all come to head when we nuke Damascus (or Tehran, or whichever city B*sh decides he wants to vaporize first).

[The Commie]

61. About Civil War...

If PNAC tries to take down the Constitution they will have to take us down with it, even if it means a coup-de-etat or rebellion. (grabs rifle). :grr: The only way to distroy the neo-cons is to hang every member of PNAC and thier allies. }(

[cjm2222]

44. I think it will take

an end to the hyperbole on both sides. The hard right constantly screamed that Clinton was evil and guilty of murder, etc. The hard left does the same thing about Bush. Both men are not evil. Clinton was not evil. Did he make a very stupid mistake? Of course, but who hasn't. He was a good president. Bush, though I disagree with many of his policies, isn't evil either. Men like Mugabe, Hussein, Stalin, Boukassa (especially him), and Hitler are evil. Disagree with the policies of the current administration--that's one great thing about the US. People who dissent aren't sent to re-education camps. The beautiful thing is that next year there will be another election. Worse case scenario--Bush wins. Guess what? He'll only be in office for another four years. If the left doesn't want him in office, then choose a Democratic candidate who can win. Personally, I think Dean or Lieberman stand a better chance of winning against Bush, than Kucinich or someone else so incredibly liberal.

I actually have friends who believe that Bush, if re-elected, will send homosexuals to re-orientation camps and call off the 2008 elections. That's ignorant. When moderates (which I am) hear that kind of nonsense, it really makes us question the intellect of those who are speaking.

So, stop with the hyperbole. It makes you and the vast right sound like loons.

[Q]

45. Yeah...let's 'move on' and 'get over it'...

...and say nice things about those with their hobnail boots on our necks.

- Hyperbole, my arse.

[Solly Mack]

50. Have I mentioned how much I adore you, Q?

Well, I do.

[ljm2002]

57. True, both men are not evil...

...only one of them is evil, and that would be Bush.

Hyperbole, you say? Well, "by their fruits shall you know them". To quote from Bush's favorite source for philosophical truisms.

The fruit of the Bush regime is death, destruction and a slide into fascism. If that is not evil then I don't know what is.

Right now, you can get into trouble for making jokes about "burning bushes". Whereas during the Clinton administration, Senators like Jesse Helms could make public remarks warning the President to "watch his back" while in their states.

Somehow, I don't see the situations as parallel.

[Kanary]

62. Here's some hyperbole for ya...

you say "Worse case scenario--Bush wins. Guess what? He'll only be in office for
another four years."

That may not be a problem for you... hurrah for your team.

Now, stop a minute and think about others who may not be so lucky.

Do you realize that Bush is destroying Section 8 housing? Yeah, lots and lots of people with nowhere to go. It's snowing here right now, and there are already lots of homeless people out in that snow. Does that bother you any? With more years of Bush, that number will be multiplied by thousands. Still think that's no biggie?

In four years, Bushwa and his henchmen can dismantle disability because disabled folx are invisible anyway, and what are they going to do about it? Cry on the steps of their state capitol building? So what... be gone with 'em.

In four more years, Bushwa and Co and finish off foodstamps and other hunger programs. Let 'em eat cake.

In four more years, Bushwa can finish offing public schools. Let the little buggers of the poor get a job, fer cryin' in a bucket, and do something useful. He doesn't read much, but I'm sure he knows his Dickens.

In four more years, Bushwa can have thousands and thousands killed in the military, fighting his useless wars. Oh well, that's only a few thousand, and it'll be over soon. Just close your eyes and think of England... er.... Texas.

In four more years, Bushwa... need I go on? There is a whole list of what they want to do, and it all involves wasting human lives.

Kanary, who likely won't make it that long anyway........

[Walt Starr]

79. Sorry, but I put every damn PNACer in with you list of evil men

In fact, I believe that Bush is more evil than Hussein ever was. Hussein killed 36 Iraqi civilians every day. Bush kills 44.

Bush is more evil than Hussein.

[tom_paine]

80. Walt, I'm still not sure which is more evil

I mean, there can be almost no doubt that if Bush was Leader of Iraq (not the invader and conquerer of it) that his methods would have very little difference between him and Saddam.

Conversely, if Saddam was in charge of a mighty, stable nation which didn't require direct brutality to maintain tyrannical control, and one in which the fading traditions of the past 225 years made direct, extreme brutality very risky, wouldn't Saddam also wait, contenting himself with the overseeing of the occasional small plane crash of his enemies or smirking gleefully at hearing a State Department official had "fallen out a 75 foot window" in his stocking feet?

(just what forensic evidence was there on John Kokal's shoes, eh, that necessitated their disposal?)

So, in the end, the jury's still out, Walt. While Saddam's tyrannical career is probably over, Emperor Bunnpants* tyrannical career has yet to begin.

[Solly Mack]

46. Oh, let's just make nice-nice with people

who are hellbent on destroying the country and the world. Let's open our homes to them and sit at the table of brotherhood and call them friend. Gee, they didn't mean to steal an election, or invade a country illegally or embrace the theft of civil liberties and rights..they don't mean to wish liberals dead or call us traitors...they didn't mean to cheer the deaths of soldier and civilian alike by backing an invasion. No..they are just misguided...they didn't know better...let's just embrace them with kindness and love and they will eventually see how wrong they are....and if any of us are still alive to witness that day..well, goody!!!

Excuse me while I go hurl...

We can't afford to wait for eventualities...

Time is short..tick-tock tick-tock

and the rightwing is the enemy

win their hearts and minds after they've been forced back into reality....and Americans need to be jolted badly.


I'm just a wee bit disgusted today so maybe I should have just avoided this topic....

[Lars39]

54. And sing a rousing verse of kumbia while we're at it.

The bumper sticker is true: if you're not mad, you're not paying attention. I know this thread brought my blood pressure up.
:hi: Solly Mack!

[Solly Mack]

55. I almost typed that! LOL (about singing)

:hi: Lars!

You're so right..the bumpersticker is dead-on!


get angry people! We have good reason to be...

[Classical_Liberal]

53. The Democrats are responding to hatred!

The republicans have to stop hating, and that will require that dems take the media away from them.

[ramapo]

58. Need a uniter

The only way to begin to heal this country is to have a President who is actually a leader and a uniter. We need a President that is for the people, not a tool of corporate power. We need a President who will not tolerate the lies, hate politics, and propaganda now used to such success by the RNC. (Democrats do it too, they're just not as good at it and I for the most part, their hearts aren't in it).

I don't know if such a person exists who can get elected.

Unfortunatly I see us becoming more divided. At some point the situation will become explosive likely because of economic conditions.

[bobd]

59. Shameless Kick

Plus I really want to know if other people are feeling the same feelings as I am.

[tom_paine]

60. kick

[Gringo]

63. THREE THINGS

1. The Democratic Party has to STOP apokogizing, and realize that "liberal" and "progressive" are good things, and be proud and stand united behind our ideals, stop caving in on EVERYTHING (like medicare & overtime this week).

2. The 4 or 5 sane politicians in the GOP need to bring it back from being an extremist fascist party, back to the subdued protector of the oligarchy it always was.

3. We need comprehensive regulation of broadcast and cable media. There MUST be a Fairness Doctrine, first of all, but also Broadcast networks and cable networks should be REQUIRED to have a certain amount of each day dedicated to News as a public service. And truth in advertising, Michael Jackson and Kobe are not "News", they are tabloid gossip and nonsense. No program calling itself "news" should be able to run that sort of story. It should be on "entertainment news" shows. Also, sensationalism and overabundance of flashy graphics REDUCE people's comprehension of issues. The crawls and all the other gimmicks should be banned, as well as obvious editorializing in ostensibly news stories.

Just my opinion, though.

[NashVegas]

64. And Here I Was Just Now Typing Up a 4 Point Plan !!!

1. Don’t think of the Republican sitting next to you as the enemy.

No matter how tempting it may be, even if it’s the most hardline Freeper in the world, the energy you waste in hating could be better put to use constructively, by thinking of ways to defeat the Republican Party in the next election. Smile and nod, and think about that 25 dollar donation you're going to make to the candidate of your choice later in the day.

2. Don’t go hardline in trying to convince a Republican to vote against Bush if there’s any chance he or she is already halfway there.

Sensible people - and there are some very sensible Republicans out there, my mom, for instance - don’t find being treated as ignorant very appealing. Be calm, be rational. Assume they read the papers and know what’s going on, and if in conversations it turns out they don’t, inform them.

With the less sensible, instead of trying to imprint on them what you think, probe with questions, ask what they think. Wait until they’ve opened up some, then sow your doubts and plant the seeds well.


3. Leave the tin foil hat at home.

‘nuff said.

4. Do not openly attack the President, but feel free to use ridicule.

Start out lightly (lack of English skills?), gauge reaction to see how far you can push the boundry and get them to chime in. If they play, keep it going. Let them be the first to say the worst.

[Gringo]

65. No problem with the crux of your post

But differ on two points: Many people think that they are informed merely by watching TV news. As we all know, it is IMPOSSIBLE to be well-informed merely by watching TV news. As for newspapers, most people don't read them anymore, and although they are better than the TV, they are plagued by the same deficiencies.

I don't think it's condescending to tell someone they are not being informed by the media, although they may take it that way. Also I wouldn't be apt to describe most right-wingers as "stupid", they are "uncurious" or mentally lazy.

Also, you refer to Bush as "the President" . To do so is considered pretty offensive by most DUers. He has done NOTHING to earn that title.

[NashVegas]

67. About that last part

I'm not too worried about convincing DUers on Bush's merits, or lack of them.

I don't think it's condescending to tell someone they are not being informed by the media,

Show, don't tell. Show, don't tell.

[leftofthedial]

66. we should shoot a few neocons and throw the rest in prison

show them that their unamerican activities have consequences.

just kidding.

sort of.

I'm at the point, though, where I no longer feel I can coexist in the same society with neocons.

And personally, I do not believe that to "resolve our differences rationally" is a viable option with them anymore. Rising Murkan fascism, fueled by unparalleled medial propaganda and control, is a form of mass mental illness.

I have given up arguing with my neocon former friends, because they are impervious to reason. They have been brainwashed by a full generation now of disinformation, propaganda and "newthink" programming.

I think we need to ruthlessly get them out of the political process and then start a massive, multi-generational reeducation campaign.

[John_H]

68. Have you spent any time looking at how they run the house and senate?

complete one party rule--and they don't even allow dissent within that party. Until dems take over one branch of government, there will be no bipartisanship.

[DoNotRefill]

69. the only way is to exterminate all of mankind.

Not a solution I'd suggest.

If there were two people left on the planet, they'd hate each other.

[frustrated_lefty]

70. The left and the right seem more polarized now than at any other time

Your first line says a lot. It isn't so much that the left and the right have become polarized, it's that the left is catching up to the right in terms of venom and outright hatred. The right's pointmen in the media are Bill O'Reilly, Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter. How do you see rational discourse occurring with these people? We should back down and turn the other cheek when they're putting Rush back on the air?

Don't take this to mean "it's all their fault," but hell and be damned, we have a right for outrage.

Bush ranks #2, tied with Kim Jong Il for the greatest threat to world peace among Europeans, coming behind Sharon in the #1 spot. HeadStart, Medicare, Social Security, it's all under attack. We are outraged and fighting to preserve a government FOR the people in our own country, NOT the government which preys upon the people we have somehow stumbled into.

BushCo and the neocons may not be evil, but they're the closest thing I've seen to it in my lifetime.

[wabeewoman]

73. Agree, frustrated_lefty...

I think the left has always been tolerant and thoughtful and well, liberal but we are catching up to the right. After a while you have to start standing up. I was thinking of going to Canada if bush were re-elected but now I think I'll stay and fight. Its as much my country as his. My wingnut brother was spewing and I said something about being tolerant and he said no, there were things he couldn't be tolerant of(like liberals, homosexuals-anything HE thought was wrong). They don't get that nobody died and made them God. I think bush is destroying this country and possibly the world. I don't get how the people aren't seeing it. But I do think right wingers are getting dangerous. They twist the facts around (and accuse liberals of being dangerous) and bush and the republicans in congress just flat out lie. If I could have just one wish, I would wish that liars noses would grow. These guys would be putting each others eyes out! Politics is going to be off limits over the holidays at my house or we will all be estranged.

[Skittles]

71. REPUBLICANS CAN STOP STEALING ELECTIONS

THAT WOULD BE A START

[RainDog]

72. How appropriate that you post this on Nov. 23rd

even though we're on to the next day.

Whether Oswald acted alone or not, the fact is that Dallas was a hotbed of anti-Kennedy hatred back in the day.

Sort of like the Clinton hatred during his two terms...but only his character was assassinated. (and for anyone who wants to say...but he DID get a blow job, I'd like to remind you of Newt boinking his mistress and calling his wife while she was getting chemo to get a divorce, and Barr licking the whipped cream off the nipple of a stripper, and Poppy Bush and his affair, and on and on.)

In the sixties, white people in the south had no problem killing black girls because those girls thought they should have equal rights, just like their white elementary school peers.

I see what is happening in this country right now as the ascension of the hatred of the right wing exemplified by events in the south, including the killing of MLK, after he had been the subject of Hoover's intense hatred, too.

For anyone to compare my reaction to Bush to what the right wing is doing is like comparing the anger of a rape victim to the anger of the perpetrator.

I don't hate Bush because he's a white man. I hate Bush because he has consistently undermined our Constitution, from the time his brother, Jeb, and Katherine Harris conspired to deny so many typically democratic (and often African-American) citizens their lawful right to vote. That issue was also a problem in the south in the sixties.

I hate Bush and his junta because they are already acting like a one-party totalitarian dictatorship in practice, while they use all the words Americans like to hear and too often don't pay attention while the Bush junta does the exact opposite.

People of all backgrounds are openly calling this a fascist govt now...ex-military, retirees, mothers with small children who volunteer at school, educators, writers of editorials for major newspapers.

Don't you think, those of you who say that we are so extreme, don't you think that what you're seeing on the left is a reaction to the abuses of power? --to the near disregard for rule of law, in fact, if the law isn't to BushCo's liking?

The ultra right wing politicized me because it finally became so glaringly obvious that they were, by definition of their actions, enemies of democracy, and often theocrats to boot.

they are destroying this country day by day and creating a society which is nasty and brutish and short on honest information.

I agree that the only way this country is going to turn back this putrid tide of fascism is by a media which is not bought and sold, one which acknowledges its duty to provide information for citizens to make decisions, and not one which is the conduit for sensationalist trash elevated to news status 24/7.

My hope is that the American people are, finally, loyal to the ideas which gave birth to this country, and not to a leader who tries to scare them into obedience and hatred.

I believe that we citizens of this country can take back our nation without bloodshed between us, by massive outpourings of outrage to our representatives.

I hope I'm not wrong.

[Hippo_Tron]

74. It's simple...

We need a non partisan president and a non partisan house speaker + senate majority leader of different parties.

[NashVegas]

76. Another Thought - Go After the Ringleaders/Enablers

Lee Atwater conveniently died, not too much we can do there.

Among the media industry, there are those who give celebrity to the shoutmasters because it's good for bidness, and those who purposely have used it as a political tool. The latter group must be identified and unmasked as the traitors to democracy they are.

A good place to start would be the 1980s and the push to remove the Fairness Doctrine. Whose ideological child was that?

[moondust]

77. Maybe Canada wouldn't mind annexing the top half of the U.S.

I'm serious. Hurry up before I'm gone!

[Walt Starr]

78. The right started it

I'm just reacting to a direct attack on me.

Fuck 'em. They declared war. I'll finish the damn thing.