This is why I am supporting Dean

[dkf]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7100-2003Nov22.html

"He won our support because he has a simple plan," said Paul Stokes, president of the State Employees Association, SEIU Local 1984. "He wants to change the political process, he wants to change the way America sees itself, and he wants to change the world."

--
From the U-blog

http://dean2004.blogspot.com/

"People have to get over their belief that they can’t make a difference. The system has taught all of us you can’t make a difference, that your $25, your $100, your four hours tabling don’t mean a hill of beans. And they’re right. By themselves it won’t do anything. But 2 million Americans doing that, the same small thing, is huge. It will change this country’s political history, it will change the country. We’re not just talking about changing Presidents, we’re talking about changing politics.”

Trippi discussed James McGregor Burns, the historian, who wrote about the difference between “transactional” and “transformative” leaders in 1977, expanding on it in 2002. As Publishers Weekly notes, “He distinguishes between ‘transactional’ leaders, who thrive on cutting deals, and ‘transforming’ leaders, whose sweeping changes totally revamp political institutions.”

How can you tell a transforming leader? First, noted Trippi, a movement grows up spontaneously around them. (Sound familiar?) Second (and this is the important part), leaders emerge from within that movement. Anyone in the room, he said, could become such a leader. So can anyone on this blog. (This means YOU.)

---

Folks, I have never had a "transformational" leader in my voting lifetime (mid thirties). I am darned if I am going to trade this one chance at changing the way things are done for the lesser and wimpy prospect of electability.

I want to see if we can change the world and if we can change the frankly sh**ty attitudes of most of my fellow Americans.

So for all you people freaking out about electability, I am not afraid anymore because I refuse to give in to fear. Instead I believe we can do this, because it is right for this country.

[slinkerwink]

1. thank you......

:hug:

[caledesi]

11. "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself." FRD

Still holds true today. I talked w/ one of my friends(a Democrat) who does NOT have cable, and he was SO pessimistic. Frankly, it pissed me off. He was going on and one about Bush*...I said "it sounds like you think that * is omnipotent?" His response: "yeah, I do." I was SICK.

It just make me sick :puke" Bush* can be beaten very easily and I am not just talking Dean. We have some great candidates out there and we will prove what an idiot this guy is.

[JohnKleeb]

26. thats what I use on cynics too

plus, some see things as they are and others see things how they should be and say why not. One of my fave quotes.

[slinkerwink]

2. :kick:

I'm not afraid of this electability meme either...

[virtualobserver]

4. in reality, he is the most electable......

having a part time job kissing Bush's ass does not enhance your electability, no matter how much some of the others may hope and pray that it does.

[slinkerwink]

5. how is he kissing bush's ass?

:shrug:

[virtualobserver]

8. who? n/t

[slinkerwink]

14. who were you referring to in your original post?

[virtualobserver]

18. electable one - Dean ........

kissing Bush's ass - a number of members of the House and Senate who will go unnamed.

[slinkerwink]

19. Dean is not EFFING kissing Bush's ass........you're so grossly uninformed.

:nuke:

[Melinda]

23. Slink, you misread his post - read again.

Please - read again.

[virtualobserver]

24. I think that you are misunderstanding my post.....

I am saying that Dean is electable because he is not kissing Bush's ass, unlike the unnamed members of the House and Senate,

[slinkerwink]

27. you need to edit your other post because of the confusing ellipsis....

[virtualobserver]

30. maybe I should start using periods and constructing logical sentences.

But you must admit, the discussion is more lively when I don't. ;)

[Eloriel]

64. ROTFL

Yeah, lively -- and tense. But as long as ONE of you keeps a sense of humor about it......

Eloriel

[Melinda]

33. .

[w4rma]

21. (n/t)

[virtualobserver]

9. who? n/t

[neuvocat]

3. Dean has done much already.

He's not my first choice but I will proudly support him should he get the nod.

[slinkerwink]

10. thank you....

:hug:

[Bombtrack]

6. What if Jerry Springer was going to get the nom, would you "freak out"

about electablity then? What about Gary Condit, or Grey Davis?

Dean wouldn't lose as badly as them, but he will still probably lose.

You speak about electability as if it's an unimportant afterthought, and that's what it obviously is to the Dean camp, broad appeal pales in comparison in importance to obsession with Iraq.

[pruner]

12. you speak about electability as if…

you know what the fuck you're talking about…

but clearly you don't.

[w4rma]

16. Howard Dean has the best chance to beat Bush.

Brilliant, aggressive and moneyed (that's Dean Witter to you, pal), Dr. Dean has a corner on the single most important issue to Americans: health care. His politics are surprisingly centrist, in both the refreshing sense (he's pro-Second Amendment and he came out for class-, rather than race-based affirmative action) and in the disappointing, Clintonian sense (he opposed invading Iraq, but not Afghanistan). He's got traditional Democratic constituents (he just stole the biggest AFL-CIO union's endorsement away from Gephardt) and fresh new ones (twentysomething bloggers have mailed him $25 million in crisp twenties).

Dean's got lots more going for him, not the least of which is running as an insurgent small-state governor disliked by his own party's top leaders (the ex-governor thing casts him as even more of an outsider). Polls show Dean leading his nearest rival, John Kerry, 33 percent to 19 percent in the crucial New Hampshire primary. Coming out early and hard against the war in Iraq wins him major props with the liberal base and makes him seem ahead-of-the-curve to everyone else. Most importantly, he's his own man. "He doesn't really owe his current standing to any of them, not to labor, not to minority groups, not environmental organizations, so he'll have more leeway as a nominee to follow his own course," says Darrel West, a political science professor at Cornell.

But the rubber would really tear up the road at the presidential debates, where Dean's dry, sardonic Long Island wit would devastate the hapless Bush--and charm television viewers. His natural pugnacity could help Dems deal more aggressively than usual with the nasty attack ads they can expect in the campaign ahead. Frankly, the other Democratic contenders don't have what it takes to stand up to Karl Rove's brutal war machine.

Maybe it's premature to endorse Gov. Dean. But right now, given the information we have available, he's the preferred candidate of us Anybody But Bushies.

(Ted Rall is the author of the graphic travelogue "To Afghanistan and Back," an award-winning recounting of his experiences covering the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan. It is now available in a revised and updated paperback edition containing new material. Ordering information is available at amazon.com.)
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=127&ncid=742&e=7&u=/uclicktext/20031123/cm_ucru/howarddeanforpresident

[dkf]

20. I'm not talking about Springer's electability

I'm talking about Dean's electability, which are two completely different things.

I also believe that Dean's perceived electability is significantly understated because people who aren't paying attention will not get it.

I think a lot of Clark supporters are former Dean supporters who started leaning that way because they were scared that Dean might not win. That is why I am talking about fear.

And in a way they have a point. It is easy to support Clark because Clark is pretty bland if you ask me. He doesn't say much of anything and he doesn't go out on a limb much. So Clark is a very comfortable candidate. But in that same vein, Clark is NOT a transformative candidate. He is status quo from Clinton.

Clinton was ok, but he was pretty much bought too. I want a transformation from Bush and Clinton politics.

[Bombtrack]

52. I am paying attention, and every pro strategist is as well

and the vast majority of dem strategists who don't want Dean to get nominated are outnumbered by the hordes of GOP strategists who couldn't be happier that he is the frontrunner.

I don't know why you braught up Clark, he's not my top choice, but it's demonsterably assinine to suggest that Dean would have in any way as good a chance as Clark to defeat Bush.

Through my university classes I can comfortably say I am a better authority than the majority of posters here on Current national and state politics and public policy analysis.

You're opinon that Dean is "transformative" or others that he is "fiary" or whatever else frankly don't matter.

The middle class is overwhelmingly and passionatly against there income taxes being raised, about 60/40 for the Iraq invasion/regime change being necessary(during/after the bloodiest month of the war), and about 60/40 against civil unions.

His obviously defensive reassurance about his lack of electability are based on his NRA/gun cred, which going further relies on the 10 percent of voters who want less strict gun laws to get excited about a new england liberal.(while the 50 percent of voters who favor stricter gun laws, and usually relie on dems for that not hold it against him).

His other defensive reassurance is his definitivly false self-proclamation that he is a "fiscal conservative". He has a fiscally MODERATE record in Vermont but his platform is based on a middle class tax increase, and spending 90 billion plus additional dollars on healthcare.

Just like if he was genunly a strong general election candidate he wouldn't have to use absurd comments like "fiscal conservative" and "I'm the candidate for guys with confederate Flags"; if he was actually a straigt talker he wouldn't have to say he was either.

Being a tax raising deficit hawk doesn't make you a fiscal conservative, constantly having to apologize for dumb comments doesn't make you a straigt talker, and nothing about being an angry doctor from Vermont makes you electable

[w4rma]

Bush team considers Dean formidable Republicans admit they underestimated…

Bush team considers Dean formidable Republicans admit they underestimated Dem candidate

By Judy Keen
USA TODAY

WASHINGTON -- Republican Party officials and political advisers to President Bush admit that they underestimated Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean and say they now consider him a formidable potential adversary.

Some Bush allies say he reminds them of another insurgent candidate who once bedeviled Bush: Arizona Sen. John McCain. His wins in Republican primary elections in New Hampshire and Michigan rattled Bush's 2000 campaign.

''There is something going on there, and I tell you, if we don't pay attention . . . we're making a big mistake,'' says Tom Rath, a Republican strategist and Bush adviser in New Hampshire.
…
http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20030908/5477666s.htm
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=103020

TO: Moore Information Clients & Friends

FROM: Hans Kaiser & Bob Moore

RE: Election 2004: Why Dean Can Win, September 2003

A recent article by David Brooks left readers with the distinct impression that Republican pollsters are all of the opinion that Howard Dean cannot possibly beat George Bush. We regret that he didn’t check with us first, as it is our belief that Dean has the potential to be a formidable candidate who could give the President a very difficult race.

The conventional wisdom that has some Republicans giddy about a potential Dean candidacy is not only misguided, it is counterproductive. Writing off a candidate like Dean by selectively sorting statistical gobble-de-gook and mixing it into a broth of “empirical” sociological evidence ignores the political realities of our time.
…
The difference between Howard Dean and the rest of the Democrat candidates is that Dean comes across as a true believer to the base but he will not appear threatening to folks in the middle. More than any other candidate in the field, he will be able to present himself as one who cares about people (doctor), who balances budgets (governor), and who appears well grounded while looking presidential. To be sure, he doesn’t look that way to the GOP base, but that has no bearing on the election, because they will never vote for him anyway. He can appeal to the middle and Republicans can ignore his candidacy at our peril. We are whistling past the graveyard if we think Howard Dean will be a pushover.

Howard Dean’s appeal is closer to Ronald Reagan’s than any other Democrat running today. Granted, that’s not saying much with this field, but there are similarities here. The Democrat party used to chuckle about Reagan and his gaffes which they believed would marginalize him to the far right dustbin of history. But when his opponents tried to attack him for some of his more outlandish statements, the folks in the middle simply ignored them. Voters in the middle looked to the bigger picture where they saw a man of conviction who cared about them and had solutions for their problems. Howard Dean has the potential to offer a similar type candidacy.
…
http://www.moore-info.com/Poll_Updates/2004%20Election%20%20Why%20Dean%20can%20win%20Sept%2003.htm
http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/david_reinhard/index.ssf?/base/editorial/106829671744920.xml
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=709103

…
Simon Rosenberg, who heads the centrist New Democrat Network, put the Dean bounty in perspective by noting that in a 10-candidate field the former Vermont governor was able to raise 50 percent more than Bill Clinton raised in the best quarter of his 1996 re-election effort. Rosenberg called Dean’s feat “almost miraculous” and added, “We have to recognize that the Dean campaign is the best-run campaign we’ve ever seen.”
…
http://www.msnbc.com/news/974339.asp
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=52916

[Bombtrack]

62. The articles are true but your editorials aren't

of course Dean is electable, because every nominee of a major party other than those on the absolute fringe comes in with a garenteed 40 percent of the vote.

However they also know that they would much rather have Dean nominated than Kerry, Edwards, Clark, or (sorry) Lieberman. Having signed a civil unions bill or coming from Vermont(the worst state a dem probably could come from) alone wouldn't doom any candidate.

Being against the war alone wouldn't doom any candidate(I think Graham could have or Clark would be very strong candidates despite it).

However proposing to raise taxes on the middle class at the outset would doom almost any candidate, especially Dean.

[Eloriel]

65. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry at your previous post

wherein you elevated yourself, by virtue of your "university classes" and all, to superstar status as a political analyst and all around know-it-all.

Let me share a clue with you: you're dead wrong. I don't know what "university" you're talking about, but you should either get a refund, or be fired. Or maybe you've just been spending far too much time in the Clark and Dean threads and don't have such a good bead on DU (but then, it HAS deteriorated some since the Clark invasion, so maybe I should give you a few extra points for catching us at a bad time).

At least with THIS post you finally gave a reason why you think Dean is unelectable. Deadern a doornail wrong.

However proposing to raise taxes on the middle class at the outset would doom almost any candidate, especially Dean.

First, what Dean proposes is a return to Clinton-era taxes. If you'll do your homework (since your memory isn't that good, obviously, or perhaps you were too young to have been paying attention?) poll after poll after poll said that most Americans didn't particularly WANT a tax cut. What they would have preferred was social spending -- the very kind Dean is proposing. And paying down the debt. And having a rainy day fund.

Second, speaking of Dean, he frames it very well indeed: "Would you rather have your $300 or $400 in tax cuts, or would you rather have guaranteed health insurance?" He knows very well that for a LOT of people that health insurance will save them more money than their paltry tax cut. And they know it too.

Americans also care deeply about deficits. They don't want 'em. Dean doesn't either. Most Americans will gladly return to Clinton-era taxes in order to stop the hemorraghing. Americans aren't unwilling to be called upon to sacrifice, as long as it's presented well and properly. And a $300- $400 tax cut is not worth it to the conscientious, responsible Americans who are concerned about those deficits. And they'd hardly consider it a sacrifice, either.

Eloriel

[JNelson6563]

76. well perhaps your school chums should hang out

with senatorial aides for a while and get a real view from the Hill. It doesn't coincide with your post at all. Your bias fits your post nicely but the political realities I get from those on the inside do not.

I have to give you an A for effort though. Planting memes (Springer?? Condit?? haha) and then talking about your pals at University. Ooooh. Must be smart and know more than us mooks, what with all that book-larnin' and all. <snarf>

I have a feeling that when reality hits you are in for a very unpleasant surprise. But don't let me spoil your fun now, please, continue slamming your hands over you ears and yelling "I can't hear you!!" It's pretty entertaining.

Julie

[sugargoose]

25. obsession with Iraq??

It will probably take you a long time to understand, but I have faith you will get there eventually.

I hear so many mischaracterizations about Dean that it can be discouraging. However, once he becomes president, I fully believe that over half of the people not supporting him now will claim they always did. Just like after JFK was killed.

Working on his campaign has been revolutionary. I've had a transformation within myself. I know in my heart that we are making history, and it's going to be big, and it's going to be good. Working toward something so positive has been so great for the sense of hopelessness so many of us Americans have been suffering from. I can hardly wait for 2005!

[Kremer]

55. If Dean wins Pres,

what about Grey Davis for Sec of E.P.A.? I like the idea!!!!!!!! Despite all the crap said about Grey, I live in CA and think he will go down as one of the better Gov's of CA, especially on the environment!! Sec of the Interior?

[hedda_foil]

7. This is spot on!

I've experienced one transformational leader in my lifetime ... JFK, and Dean has exactly those characteristics.

[Julien Sorel]

13. What did JFK 'transform?'

What would Dean 'transform,' and how would he do it? He himself has no concrete plans that he talks about; it's circular logic and empty rhetoric.

[slinkerwink]

15. he plans to get $200 million, and take back the House and the Senate

that's long-term plans if you ask me....

[Julien Sorel]

22. So he plans on raising money -- that's the 'transformational' change?

That's what makes him 'transformational?' Did Kennedy also raise lots of money? Bush has raised more money than anyone, is he 'transformational?' If another candidate announced plans to raise lots of money, would they be 'transformational?'

[slinkerwink]

28. it's ENCOURAGING political participation on a mass scale....

geez, I've repeated the same thing to you and you still DON'T get it.

[Julien Sorel]

34. You refuse to emerge from your circle.

Every candidate encourages people to get involved. "Oh, but Dean is different." How? "He raises money!" How is that different? Everyone raises money. "He encourages people to participate!" And when other people do the same thing? "You just don't get it."

Always with the Deanites it's 'you just don't get it;' 'you have to be a part of the campaign to understand;' blah blah blah (or is that bah bah bah). And then you complain when people point out that you sound like cultists.

[w4rma]

35. Yadda, yadda, Clark is God, noone can compare to Clark.

BillyBunter, Clark follower, speaks.

[Julien Sorel]

37. Who mentioned Clark?

You did, not me. This is about Dean, not Clark.

You do best when you drop one of your huge cut-and-paste things into a thread, even when they don't have anything to do with it. It A) looks more impressive; and B) the sheer volume of the material dump gives your post the appearance that it might have some substance. This one was so short it was obvious that it didn't.

[w4rma]

39. Oohh, more insults from BillyBunter. Is that all you do? Insult? (n/t)

[Julien Sorel]

41. If you feel insulted by someone pointing out that your post

lacks substance, I really don't know what to say...

[w4rma]

43. Where's your substance BillyBunter, insulter of Dean and Dean supporters

follower of Clark?

[Julien Sorel]

58. 'My substance' has been laid out, and all you can do

is talk about Clark on a Dean thread. I think it's accurate, and as polite as I care to be, to say that one of us has problems with substance, and leave it at that.

[w4rma]

60. One of us (you) does indeed have problems with substance and insults (n/t)

[eileen_d]

47. Despite the insulting "cultist" reference, you have a point

Don't get me wrong - I think that Dean motivating people to get active in politics is a good thing. However, involvement with a "transformative campaign" is not going to be a selling point for many, many voters. Some people just want to exercise their right to vote for the representatives of their choice, and it ends there.

Take away Dean's campaign, and what's left? Dean. Honestly, if his campaign didn't have the grassroots angle, would anyone here be voting for him?

[w4rma]

51. Dean was my second choice (next to Gore) just before Gore dropped out.

But at that time I thought that Dean didn't have a shot at winning the nomination. Boy was I wrong.

I became a Dean supporter after his interview with Russert on MTP.

So, if his campaign didn't have the grassroots angle, would anyone here be voting for him? Yes, I am an example of one who would.

[Eloriel]

69. Your post makes no sense whatsoever

"Take away the grassroots angle...?"

What the hell are you saying? Dean happens to be MORE than his "grassroots angle," but jeezLouise, you really have to be digging deep to try to make that something dismissable.

And don't worry. For those who aren't interested in "getting involved with a transformative campaign," there's plenty of policies, and charisma, and character, and solid record, and so forth.

We got it all, baby. :evilgrin:

Eloriel

[eileen_d]

71. OK, let me rephrase that.

I believe you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I am NOT dismissing the grassroots support that Dean has, I think it is impressive and he deserves a great deal of credit for it.

But let's say his campaign methods were more traditional, less innovative. Would people still get excited about Dean, the candidate?

I know it's hypothetical. But I think it's a legitimate question.

[Eloriel]

82. No, it still makes no sense and here's why

But let's say his campaign methods were more traditional, less innovative. Would people still get excited about Dean, the candidate?


It's NOT about his campaign methods; the campaign methods merely do a good job of capitalizing on the excitement that Dean generates. Hell, if it were about the "campaign methods" -- internet fundraising, blog, MeetUps, etc. -- the other candidates who have adopted them would be doing far better by now. They're not. Why? They are simply not exciting, hope-inspiring candidates as Dean supporters of all political stripes find Dean. You can't have success at the innovative methods (or any methods, really) without an exciting candidate. That comes first.

And, I'd point out, that many of his campaign methods (grassroots organizing such as door-to-door canvassing in states OTHER than NH and Iowa, tabling and flyering, community involvement, etc.) are plenty traditional. The Dem Party just got very lazy and forgot about them. But that's a quibble.

[JNelson6563]

77. Yes, here's why.

When so many Dems were trippingover themselves to stand shoulder to shoulder with the boy king so they could win great popularity for supporting our swift and glorious victory in Iraq Dean stood up said this war is wrong and Bush is an asshole. Very few others dared to declare the emperor naked like that. If any of the Senatorial candidates for Prez had had the balls to put in half the showing someone like Senator Byrd did, I'd follow him to the ends of the earth.

Nevermind grass-roots, Dean took the chance whill the others broke their necks to get to what they mistook for the safe road. Cowards.

Julie

[Eloriel]

68. No, YOU refuse to look beyond your own self-circumscribed

myopic circle.

But it's okay. It's just an act to you. I understand that.

Eloriel

[Julien Sorel]

73. Uh huh.

And just like the other poster, you failed to address the issue at hand, instead calling it an 'act.' I suppose that excuses you from actually making a real contribution.

[Eloriel]

84. No, there's nothing to address

You've claimed the same thing again and again, and it doesn't make it so. Why should I repeat myself to someone who has a vested interest in pretending not to understand? Not going to do it. But I WILL point out the vacuity -- and purposeful disingenuousness -- involved.

Eloriel

[Julien Sorel]

92. To recap where we've been:

I asked a question, which has gone unanswered. Attempts to answer it quickly devolve into mush and circular logic. I stated where we are, above, and since no one has answered it, I'll simply cut and paste:

Every candidate encourages people to get involved. "Oh, but Dean is different." How? "He raises money!" How is that different? Everyone raises money. "He encourages people to participate!" And when other people do the same thing? "You just don't get it."

Always with the Deanites it's 'you just don't get it;' 'you have to be a part of the campaign to understand;' blah blah blah (or is that bah bah bah). And then you complain when people point out that you sound like cultists.


Do you have a reasoned reply, or are you simply going to use empty words and weak attempts at name calling?

[dkf]

38. Nope. Dean is transformational in that he is not willing to

do things the way they were done in the past just because...

He is going to challenge the logic of why we are doing things the way we are.

Look at the "gaffes" and other topics that he has raised which have already transformed the public debate:

Isreali/Palestinian relations (being evenhanded).
Confronting the wedge politics of race, guns, religion, and gays.
The Confederate flag.
The collapse of morality and sense of responsibility in so many of our business leaders and in corporations leading to possible "re-regulation".
The purchase of legislation by big business paying off BOTH parties.
Striving for higher moral purpose in our foreign policy - instead of preemptive war based on hooey which all the other top tier candidates supported.
No Child Left Behind Act.

The money allows him to look like a frontrunner, but nothing he is saying now are things he probably wouldn't have been saying if he didn't have all this $. However, he would have been just as much of a fringe candidate as Kucinich, Moseley Braun and Sharpton if he didn't have the money.

[Julien Sorel]

46. So it isn't money after all. His policies are 'transformational.'

Isreali/Palestinian relations (being evenhanded).

Too late -- he backtracked on this one, and now supports Israel to the hilt.

Confronting the wedge politics of race, guns, religion, and gays.

Partial credit here, although I've yet to see any progress besides some polarization. Still, polarization can be a first step to change -- although change itself can cut both ways. That being said, every candidate approaches these issues in one way or another; Dean's way has thus far offended Southerners and blacks (race).

The Confederate flag.

I can only hope this was an attempt at humor.

The collapse of morality and sense of responsibility in so many of our business leaders and in corporations leading to possible "re-regulation".

Empty and cheap rhetoric -- what regulation? Moreover, 'so many of our business leaders?' Which ones? 'Ken Lay and the boys at Enron.' Which others? How many is 'so many?'

The purchase of legislation by big business paying off BOTH parties.

How will this be done? Does Dean have some kind of campaign finance reform bill that I'm not aware of?

Striving for higher moral purpose in our foreign policy - instead of preemptive war based on hooey which all the other top tier candidates supported.

Vague rhetoric and false. Dean also supports 'pre-emptive war;' it was this war he was against.

No Child Left Behind Act.

What about it?

[dkf]

54. Oh good grief. I'm just talking about how he is willing to

confront issues head on and how he is not boxed in by old tired thinking.

But these are the things that really inspire me about Howard Dean:

He has the courage to do what is right.

He inspires people to strive to do more and to do the hard work necessary to achieve it.

He calls out to the best in us (it is not enough for my kids to have health insurance and good schools, your kids need health insurance and good schools too! - which appeals to generousity of spirit vs. selfishness and only being concerned about yourself and your friggen tax cut).

He wants us to promote legislation based on the wants and needs that we all have in common instead of the things that separate us into groups.

Lastly, when I listen to Howard Dean speak, I really feel a brotherhood with my fellow American citizens and I like that.

[Julien Sorel]

57. And again, Deanites complain

when people compare them to cultists. You laid out all these policy positions and said they made him 'transformational' but now you backtrack and say you simply like the way he makes you feel. Properly addressing this would violate the rules of this place.

[w4rma]

61. Hey don't you have to go

prey to your Clark god/hero or something, BillyBunter?

[dkf]

63. Oh, give it up already.

Cult smult. You just do that to try to feel superior to me. I find that kinda pathetic and pretty demeaning.

BTW, I do NOT think that Howard Dean is perfect. In fact, I shoot off an email about every other day to complain about something he is doing so don't think I am blindly following everything he says.

But in general, I like the way he thinks and reasons out problems, I like that he is fact driven vs. ideologically driven and I like that he is able to change his mind if he needs to.

I like that he inspires people and that he is very charming and persuasive.

In any case, when Martin Luther King, Jr. spoke, did people talk about his cult?

When JFK spoke, did you call his supporters cultists?

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[snrfmaster]

75. we should be evenhanded

thats my main reason for liking dean, if we're even handed between palestine/israel instead of making israel our number one recipient of aid and military hardware so they can blow up arabs then the arab world wont hate us so much. simple as that

[sandnsea]

72. Write a check activism

America at its worst. Who cares what somebody stands for or has stood for in the past, write a check and change the world. I'm embarrassed for this country, we have sunk so low.

[snrfmaster]

74. if dean gets elected

im going to pee my pants with glee, then call my best friend whos a right-wing nut and laugh for 2 hours

[silverweb]

17. I'm in!

I've heard Dean speak in person and had the honor of shaking his hand shortly after. Tomorrow I'll be in LA with other Dean supporters, listening to Trippi lay out the battle plan.

Together we are going to take our country back!

[FrenchieCat]

31. Well ok.....whatever.....

For those Dean Supporters, please note that the Republican Convention is to be held on New York. The closing day of the convention is 9/11/04. That's the day the fake pResident will give the big hurrah speech. Remember that this is less than two months prior to the election. Historically, a convention tends to bumps up the positive percentage points of that party. We all know that the propaganda will be thick and heavy with Bush/Rove speak.
I have written the speech that Bush might give on that convention floor, if Dean gets the Dem nomination:
The speech will go something like this:

(Imagine it with his bad tx southern accent)
We have been fighting this War on Terror three years exactly today. We continue to pray for those who perished on 9/11. We pray for their family and thank them for the lives of their brave sons and daughters. We pray for the firemen and policemen who's heroic efforts shall never be forgotten. We will never forget, and that's why we took the fight to the enemy. We are safer because the fight is going on over there instead of over here.

The Democrats want to be in charge on this War on Terror. Howard Dean, who has no foreign policy experience, and never saw military service, wants to take the baton from me. He said that he has as much experience as I did when I was first elected. After 9/11, is that who the American people want to take over the War on Terror?(Bush snickers with his imfamous smirk) Dean wanted Saddam to continue to torture and kill the Iraqi people. He didn't want us to uphold America's responsibility to the world. He thinks that Iraq was better off under the terroristic evil dictatorship called Saddam Hussein. You have seen the reports on the mass graves. Dean obviously didn't. Dean didn't want the terrorist to come to Iraq to fight. He wanted them to stay in America and kill innocent Americans again, just like they did on 9/11.

But more than that, Howard Dean also wants to raise your taxes. Yes, raise taxes on each and everyone of you. A Tax and Spend Democrat wants to do what they have always done; grow the government and waste your hard earned money.

Now I know that we have to win this war, to give what we promised to the Iraqis people. We have to give them freedom and democracy, that was our promise, and I intend to fulfill that promise. Today we have 100,000 Iraqis bringing security to Iraqis. We have to stay in there until the job is done, otherwise the Middle East will have only learned that our resolve means nothing. Howard Dean wants to cut and run. He wants to pander to the U.N. and make America look weak.
On the domestic front, do you want a President who has been making the tough decisions for the last 4 years or do you want Dean? The guy who comes from a state that has as many residence as this city of New York has people of Puerto Rican descent. 600,000 people folks. That's what he calls experience (Bush does his sinister snicker, the crowd laughs). I say to Howard Dean, Maybe if it was at least 1 million people that would give us some concern (another joke)! Does Vermont even have a National Guard?.(more laughter)...oh yea, I think there are six or seven guys over there protecting the borders from out of state attackers.(wild applauds).

(Bush gets serious and sober) I want to keep serving for the American people, for the brave folks that are serving in our military. Don't let them have died in Vain. Ms. Smith over there please stand up. Yes Ms. Smith lost her son in the war. She says that her son died for Democracy and Freedom. You are right Ms. Smith, your son died a hero to return humanity and dignity back to millions of Iraqi men, women and children (wild applause, Ms. Smith bows and sits down).

(Bush sobers off after beaming smiles and nodding his head to thank the crowd for their applause)The evildoers are on the run. We've got them where we want them. If we stop now, if we lose our resolve, who knows what will happen. Next, Iran will be developing Nukes and threatening us. So a vote for Howard Dean will not make us more secure, at home or abroad. (Bush squints and slowly says)Howard Dean doesn't know how to keep America safe, he'll have to learn. After 9/11, America can't afford a President that has to go to training classes.

Under my leadership, we haven't had another attack here in the U.S., and that says a lot about the great team that I assembled. We will win the War on terror for the sake of those innocent lives taken on 9/11 and for the sake of our children. We will win the war on terror for the sake of Freedom and Democracy. We will win the election because only we can make you safe.

The economy is looking pretty good. I promised you that my tax cuts really would work. We have a ways to go, but we will get there. Howard Dean? Well he wants to raise the taxes of each and every hard working American. He wants the big wasteful bureaucracy to decide what to do with your money. Can we afford that in America? As patriots, we have all already sacrificed much too much. Look at Ms. Smith over there. Should she be asked to add injury to pain?
As real cowboys have said, don't change horses in the middle of the stream. Especially if the replacement horse is a donkey.(wild laughter and applause).

Well folks, we are in that stream now. A nice a steady course will get us across.

God Bless all of you and God Bless America.

[slinkerwink]

36. A MASSIVE re-edit of your silly speech......

We have been fighting this War on Terror three years exactly today. We continue to pray for those who perished on 9/11. We pray for their family and thank them for the lives of their brave sons and daughters. We pray for the firemen and policemen who's heroic efforts shall never be forgotten. We will never forget, and that's why we took the fight to the enemy. We are safer because the fight is going on over there instead of over here.

The Democrats want to be in charge on this War on Terror. Wesley Clark, who has no domestic policy experience, wants to take the baton from me. He said that he has as much experience as I did when I was first elected. After 9/11, is that who the American people want to take over the War on Terror?(Bush snickers with his imfamous smirk) Clark wanted Saddam to continue to torture and kill the Iraqi people. He didn't want us to uphold America's responsibility to the world. He thinks that Iraq was better off under the terroristic evil dictatorship called Saddam Hussein. You have seen the reports on the mass graves. Clark obviously didn't. Clark didn't want the terrorist to come to Iraq to fight. He wanted them to stay in America and kill innocent Americans again, just like they did on 9/11.

But more than that, Wesley Clark also wants to raise your taxes. Yes, raise taxes on each and everyone of you. A Tax and Spend Democrat wants to do what they have always done; grow the government and waste your hard earned money.

Now I know that we have to win this war, to give what we promised to the Iraqis people. We have to give them freedom and democracy, that was our promise, and I intend to fulfill that promise. Today we have 100,000 Iraqis bringing security to Iraqis. We have to stay in there until the job is done, otherwise the Middle East will have only learned that our resolve means nothing. Wesley Clark wants to cut and run. He wants to pander to the NATO and make America look weak.
On the domestic front, do you want a President who has been making the tough decisions for the last 4 years or do you want Clark? The guy who comes from a rural state like Clinton who started the decline of the economy. That's what he calls experience (Bush does his sinister snicker, the crowd laughs). I say to Wesley Clark, if you hadn't almost started World War Three(another joke)! Does Clark even have a clue?(more laughter)...oh yea, I think there are six or seven guys over there protecting the borders from out of state attackers.(wild applauds).

(Bush gets serious and sober) I want to keep serving for the American people, for the brave folks that are serving in our military. Don't let them have died in Vain. Ms. Smith over there please stand up. Yes Ms. Smith lost her son in the war. She says that her son died for Democracy and Freedom. You are right Ms. Smith, your son died a hero to return humanity and dignity back to millions of Iraqi men, women and children (wild applause, Ms. Smith bows and sits down).

(Bush sobers off after beaming smiles and nodding his head to thank the crowd for their applause)The evildoers are on the run. We've got them where we want them. If we stop now, if we lose our resolve, who knows what will happen. Next, Iran will be developing Nukes and threatening us. So a vote for Wesley Clark, a Clintonite, will not make us more secure, at home or abroad. (Bush squints and slowly says)Wesley Clark doesn't know how to keep America safe because of how badly he messed up in Kosovo, he'll have to learn.

Under my leadership, we haven't had another attack here in the U.S., and that says a lot about the great team that I assembled. We will win the War on terror for the sake of those innocent lives taken on 9/11 and for the sake of our children. We will win the war on terror for the sake of Freedom and Democracy. We will win the election because only we can make you safe.

The economy is looking pretty good. I promised you that my tax cuts really would work. We have a ways to go, but we will get there. Wesley Clark? Well he wants to raise the taxes of each and every hard working American. He wants the big wasteful bureaucracy to decide what to do with your money. Can we afford that in America? As patriots, we have all already sacrificed much too much. Look at Ms. Smith over there. Should she be asked to add injury to pain?
As real cowboys have said, don't change horses in the middle of the stream. Especially if the replacement horse is a donkey.(wild laughter and applause).

Well folks, we are in that stream now. A nice a steady course will get us across.

God Bless all of you and God Bless America.

[FrenchieCat]

40. Difference is that they won't be

laughing as hard if Clark is the name they use..their might even be some crying...plus the place will be 1/2 empty...cause many will defect...to the "makes Sense" candidate.

But will see, now won't we?

[virtualobserver]

44. the 9/11 convention speech was a huge mistake by Bush.

It is such an obvious attempt to use 9/11 politically that it will actually hurt Bush.

[slinkerwink]

45. yep, there'll be thousands of angry New Yorkers protesting...

;-)

[virtualobserver]

48. Hopefully, Bloomberg won't declare martial law and detain all liberals.

I'm sure that the security will be unbelievable.

[Lisa0825]

50. Have any of you heard of CounterConvention.org?

I subscribe to their updates, though I doubt I can make it to NYC for the protest.

http://www.counterconvention.org/

The Republicans Are Coming:

From August 30th through September 4th, the Republicans will be invading New York City to nominate George W. Bush as their candidate for President. Never has a convention been hosted so late in the year and this is the first time a Republican Convention has been in New York City. Why host a convention in September? Why New York? By exploiting our grief and trauma from September 11th, the right wing intends to further their regressive political agenda.

A huge variety of organizations are discussing ideas and strategies for countering the GOP. This site is simply an attempt to facilitate dialogue within the wide range of groups who intend to protesting the convention in 2004.

(for a list of groups: http://www.counterconvention.org/groups.php )

[JNelson6563]

79. I so agree

this is going to be a biggger gaffe than Mission Accomplished. But look at how the sheep line up quivering in fear over it.

I think back to that sanctimonious post from here and printed in the WSJ, something about us here at DU being the best and brightest, to see the fear ruling so many here so proves that wrong repeatedly. "Ooooh Bush this! Ooooh Bush that! Ahhhh!! Karl Rove!!!" *quiver* *quiver*

<snarf> Ridiculous. What a bunch of suckers.

Julie

[lastliberalintexas]

81. Glad to see that you're afraid of Shrub

I'm not, and I refuse to support the candidacy of those who not only buy into the repub BS, but also try to use it against fellow Dems. One of them will wind up getting my support in the general if he is nominated, but certainly not before the primary.

Fear, fear, fear- that's all I seem to hear from the candidates, with the exception of Dean, Kucinich, Sharpton and Braun. If you allow the repubs to write the script, then of course they win in the end. I want someone who understands that we've allowed them to control the dialogue for far too long, and that it's about darn time we take the lectern back!

[Lisa0825]

29. Great post! (topic)

I haven't ever been involved in politics beyond voting, and this is the first time I have been inspired to participate. MANY Dean supporters describe themselves this way. I believe that is what makes Dean most electable. He is bringing disillusioned voters back into the party and inspiring us to do more. I never thought I made a difference before. Now I know I do. No other candidate has so many people giving so many small donations. This is a movement of the average person.

Firsts I have had with Dean:

First time attending a meeting on behalf of a candidate
First time flyering
First time tabling
First time marching in a parade
First time blogging
First time travelling across the country for a candidate
First time knocking on strangers' doors
First time donating money... and second... and third
First time putting a candidate's bumper sticker on my car
First time calling strangers to ask them to attend their caucus
First time attending a rally
First time working at a rally
First time paying to attend a fundraiser
First time ever feeling like I was important to a campaign

[slinkerwink]

32. that's why I'm behind him all the way....

:hi: Don't let those anti-deanites get you down...

[silverweb]

49. You and me, too, Lisa!

I share all of those "firsts" with you and many other Dean supporters. All of us together are going to make the difference.

:hi:

[madfloridian]

42. Love that "simple plan"!

"He won our support because he has a simple plan," said Paul Stokes, president of the State Employees Association, SEIU Local 1984. "He wants to change the political process, he wants to change the way America sees itself, and he wants to change the world."

Big ambitions from feisty little you know what. I love it. Think simple, think big.

:7

[Ecotopian]

53. Anyone but Bush... Dean? Okay

I'm a little more than left of center. The candidate that best matches my values is Dennis Kucinich. Heck if I were to run for president (of course when I'm old enough to be eligible and have some experience under my belt), I would say the exact same things that he says. I think that without question, he's right on the money when it comes to the issues and that if we truly do want world peace, the path that he outlines is the most sound.

Unfortunately... Dennis doesn't appear to have a realistic and pragmatic plan to his etherial and spiritual platform. I have yet to hear him address how he will resolve two critical issues: the first is how he will get his plan through Congress, and the second is how he will get a buy-in by the neo-cons and overcome their disenfranchisement. Otherwise what we will be faced with is a President similar to Carter where he comes in as an outsider with grandiose plans that go no where and ends up pissing off the whole nation.

Another reason that I will end up not throwing my weight with Kucinich is that I think that our political climate has shifted too far right. In order to get the buy of neo-cons, we will first need to lower the anxiety and fear level by several notches and then shift the country back to center. Once we're clearly back in the center, then we can continue the shift even more left, more towards Kucinich's platform. The shift will also have to occur in both Congress and the White House, and remain firm for an extended period so that people become used to it. The buy-in will happen when the power dynamic between liberals and conservatives is reversed and when the table is turned, liberals do everything right that the neo-cons are now doing wrong, especially in being bi-partisan where the neo-cons are highly partisan.

I think that once we have the buy-in, we can overcome the disenfranched neo-cons and move even further left. Being well aware of my cultural bias in support of democracy and capitalism, I think that an ideal political system will be a more humane hybrid form of capitalism that supplements its disparities and weaknesses with moderate forms of socialism (universal healthcare, universal education, full employment, and environmental & community health regulations). This will allow people to still have the incentives to find a niche and to follow the American Dream to success, while providing a safety net so that people won't hit the botton so hard when they slip for any myriad of reasons.

While Dean may or may not have these things in mind, his campaign is even more attractive in that he is encouraging people to donate money to congressional races. The fact that Bush is already losing to an unknown Democratic challenger a year out looks very promising. It will be even more promising when the challenger becomes known. Pending no major goof-up, I think that we will have a Democratic president next year. I think that it is a masterful stroke of genius for Dean to encourage donations to congressional races. If Dean becomes president and enters Washington with a democratic Congress, he will have the means of sailing his proposals through Congress.

Thus, I support Dean because not only does he have a good vision, he is already working on the means by which he can attain and sustain that vision. Hopefully after having a liberal Congress for 8 years, we might have a legislature in place that would be more receptive to Kucinich's platform.

[slinkerwink]

56. welcome to DU!!!!

:hi:

[Lisa0825]

59. Welcome, Ecotopian, from a fellow newbie!:-)

I am a Dean supporter with a lot of respect for many of DK's positions. Welcome to the boards :toast:

[coloradodem2005]

66. Dean is the clearest Alternative

Dean has come out as a stark contrast from all of the other candidates and essentially the polar opposite of Bush, at least in my personal view. As for him being compared to Reagan, I almost think that he comes off more like Teddy Roosevelt.

[onebigbadwulf]

67. Because any candidate whose election

rests entirely on the shoulders of the people cannot be seduced by a corporate agenda.

The only way to end corporatism / fascism is to elect someone free of it.

[Eloriel]

70. Whew! Well said!

And I'll never understand why more DUers aren't "getting it." In fact, instead, they bash Dean for opting out of matching funds, which makes no sense at all. None.

Actually, I do understand. They're here at DU for one reason.

Eloriel

[blm]

80. Why I don't support Dean: When he took over in 1991 from a Republican

he WOULDN'T even change the governing personnel from Republican employees to Democratic ones.

The way he is campaigning as a fighting, populist reformer runs COMPLETELY COUNTER to the way he governed as a compromising centrist who aligned more with the REpublicans and AGAINST the progressive Democrats in Vermont.

When did Democrats start believing RHETORIC over RECORD?

[Hep]

83. How many times in a row did liberal vermont elect Dean?

And why doesn't it matter?

[blm]

86. How many times did Dean's re-elect numbers go down while

the Progressive Party's numbers GREW? Every election saw Dean LOSING support from the left as he stuck with his GOP allies.

The point you chose to ignore is that YOU all believe Dean is some reformer because he TALKS like he is on the CAMPAIGN TRAIL, yet he NEVER ACTED as a populist reformer when he had the opportunity to actually govern.

He did get the highest ratings for a Democrat from the CATO Institute. Yep...they really believe in democratic populist ideas there, heh?

[Hep]

88. His platform is strong

I know he can get the job done. I love how you dismiss the fact that he's never lost an election. He was this horrible governor, this closet libertarian, yet he won every time.

[blm]

90. Then why has he changed his positions if his former ones were so great?

Dean is showing a lack of principles. He has altered his stance on basic issues like Assault Weapons Ban, global free trade, Medicare, affirmative action, deregulation and Yucca Mt.

I'm assuming Dean thought his principles when he was governor were the reason he should run for president. Instead he switched policies once it looked like the momentum for support was on the left and not the right as he expected. YOU buy his populist act. I examined his REAL record in Vermont and the loathsome way he treated progressive Democrats there for over a decade.

[Eloriel]

89. Vermont is one of the most liberal states in the union

So when you say that Dean was "losing support from the left," it's a little (or a lot) misleading.

I don't know that Dean "acted as a populist reformer" or not in Vermont. I DO know that he was successful in putting in some darned fine LIBERAL policies, in alignment with his "GOP allies," some of whom must have had to vote. Healthcare, prescription drugs, a program that child abuse by dramatic numbers which itself will result in falling prison population numbers AND money, environmental protections (far more than MY Dem governor did or even thought of -- which I add because Dean gets criticized by those who live to criticize him for not being "green enough"), and so forth.

As for the Cato Institute -- here's a clue for you. They're LIbertarian, NOT Republican. There are a number of Cato Institute policies I've found myelf wholeheartedly agreeing with, and I consider myself a flaming liberal.

Eloriel

[killbotfactory]

93. He didn't change employees because he wasn't elected.

I guess doing the will of the people is less important than who you work with.

[democratreformed]

85. Noble reasons

and I honestly do wish you luck.

[the_real_38]

87. Um. Just one thing...

on the sentence "Folks, I have never had a "transformational" leader in my voting lifetime (mid thirties). I am darned if I am going to trade this one chance at changing the way things are done for the lesser and wimpy prospect of electability."

If this is what you're really commited to, you should vote for Dennis Kucinich - Dean's good with the rhetoric and attacking Bush, but his vision sure is hard to read.

Dennis!

[dkf]

91. Can't do it. Kucinich scares me.

Mostly on the $ end. I don't think he is a practical person at heart.

Sorry.