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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 06:36 AM
Original message
Dean, Vermont & Medicaid HMO's
His attacks on somebody like Dick Gephardt are appalling. At least Dick Gephardt had the foresight back in the 1990's to oppose putting Medicare into HMO's. Not Howard Dean. He jumped right on it and had Vermont's Medicaid plan run by HMO's. Until they pulled out of Vermont, just like Gephardt said they would. Why does Howard always seem to listen to right wing rhetoric and not recognize something won't work, while someone like Dick Gephardt does? Just like deregulated power, he pushed for it for years in Vermont until it failed in California. Is that what we're going to get with a Dean Presidency, a bunch of right wing policies that he doesn't have the foresight to see won't work? Like his class-based Affirmative Action and abandonment of gun regulation? And what about this HMO arbitration thing, isn't that what George Bush put in place in Texas?

Healthplan: You've called yourself a fan of HMOs. What are the three best aspects of managed care from your viewpoint?
Dean: The best aspects I can see are not having hassles over billing payments, since you have capitated payments up front. The other positive aspect is the notion that there is a single payment, and doctors-at least in the better health plans-are left to their best judgment.

Healthplan: Vermont, like other states recently, has seen bigger national players exit the local Medicaid market. At the same time, Vermont is expanding its earlier version of managed care-the primary care case management program (PCCM), where the state pays doctors extra to manage the care of their Medicaid patients. What do you see as the future of managed care in Medicaid?
Dean: I think that is going to depend from state to state, and individual states will make that choice. But I think health plans were not able to make enough money from those systems. The primary care case management program (which we're expanding) is very much modeled after some of the good things we found in having a managed care system. And in our case, we felt we were able to administer the (Medicaid) plans for less administrative cost. (Medicaid HMOs) is something I'm glad we tried, but it didn't seem to work.

Healthplan: Do you think consumers should be able to sue their HMO?
Dean: No, I don't think that is helpful. I think lawsuits in general aren't helpful. I favor arbitration. But we do need external review. In Vermont, we have a panel that works with the state government where someone who feels they are not getting proper care from their HMO can appeal. Ultimately, an ombudsman is called in and (where appropriate) the banking and insurance commissioner enforces the HMO to grant the care. I think that is fine. I think that is good. I think that system is much better than lawsuits. The reason is that system takes care of a problem before it gets out of hand. In order to file a lawsuit you have to show damages. Well what's the point of waiting until the patient is damaged so that you can file a lawsuit? I prefer arbitration up front before damage is caused, rather than lawsuits afterward. It certainly has been used in our state and it seems to be used successfully.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/405541
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pruner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 06:39 AM
Response to Original message
1. Dean is the Raw Deal
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. More debate on the issues
I love it, Dean rocks man.

If the facts are correct, just attack. We get it. We went through that in 2000. It's an old, tired game.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #2
19. HMO's are not a bad idea - and Dean was correct - but "for profit"
kills the quality of care.
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Skwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 06:49 AM
Response to Original message
3. The thought of Dean being the new leader of the Democratic
Party is unbelievable. We need look no further than AARP to see the new Republican game plan is to destroy from within.
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 06:59 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Says the promoter of the "right-winger"
who couldn't get on the Republican ticket.
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Skwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 07:18 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. Clark is to the left of Dean. e/o/m
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 06:51 AM
Response to Original message
4. Here's some info for you
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=237438

“As a physician, I've seen the suffering caused by this nation's health care crisis, and as Governor, I know it can be solved.”

Health Care – 96% of Vermont’s children have health care coverage thanks in part to Governor Dean’s Dr. Dynasaur program, and an additional 3% are eligible for coverage.

Access – Governor Dean expanded health care for children in low to middle income families. Children 18 or under, whose families are at or below 300% of the Federal Poverty Line, are eligible for insurance at virtually no cost.

Mental Health – Howard Dean was the first Governor in the nation to sign the Mental Health and Substance Abuse Parity Act. This bill guarantees coverage for mental illness and substance abuse at the same level as severe illness.

Women’s Health – During Governor Dean’s tenure, the breast and cervical cancer rate went from slightly above average to below the US average, thanks to Vermont’s comprehensive screening system. Vermont’s Medicaid program was also expanded to cover treatment for women diagnosed with breast and cervical cancer.

Teen Pregnancy – Under Governor Dean, teen pregnancy rates dropped 49%, to the lowest rate in the country.

“Healthy Families Visionary Leadership Award” – Presented by Prevent Child Abuse America.
Dean's Record on Children's Health Care

“Give children hope by investing in prevention.”

Success By Six – As a doctor, Governor Dean has placed a strong emphasis on early childhood prevention and health care, which is why 89% of pregnant Vermont women enter prenatal care in the first trimester of pregnancy. In Vermont, 91% of families with a birth received a community visit, and those parents who wanted assistance and support received it.

Dr. Dynasaur – Governor Dean has expanded children and pregnant women’s access to health care. Currently 58,903 children are covered under the program. Dr. Dynasaur covers children up to the age of 18 within families up to 300% of the Federal Poverty Line.

Child Abuse – During Governor Dean’s tenure, Vermont was the first state to institute a statewide protocol for abuse investigations. In return, Vermont saw a 45% decline in physical and sexual abuse of children. This included a 64% decline in physical abuse victims ages 0-3 and a 43% decline in physical abuse victims ages 0-6.

Child Sexual Abuse – 84% decline in sexual abuse victims ages 0-3 and 70% decline in sexual abuse victims ages 0-6.

Immunization – 81.1% of children are fully immunized by age 2 and 97% by the time they start kindergarten, which makes Vermont second in the nation in child immunizations.
Dean's Record on Serving the Elderly

“We can provide higher quality of life by avoiding institutional services whenever possible.”

Prescription Drugs – Governor Dean understands the importance of access to prescription drugs in preserving the health and avoiding unnecessary institutional care of our seniors and people with disabilities. While in office Governor Dean expanded pharmaceutical assistance to these Vermonters. Vermont has three pharmacy assistance programs with the level of benefits for each program indexed to household income. Seniors and people with disabilities can have incomes up to 225% of the federal poverty line and receive assistance with their prescriptions.

Nursing Homes– Governor Dean decreased the state’s reliance on nursing homes by mandating that funds be shifted from nursing homes to other services, such as home health care where people can live with independence and dignity. Over $30 million dollars has been shifted from paying for nursing homes to paying for in-home and community based services.

Home Health Care< – Between 1996 and 2000, there was a 161.3% increase in individuals receiving a home based waiver and services, while there was a decrease of 13.5% of individuals living in nursing homes.
Dean's Record on Prescription Drug Costs

“As a physician, I've seen the suffering caused by this nation’s health care crisis, and as a Governor, I know it can be solved.”

Drug Patent Reform – Governor Dean was founder of Business for Affordable Medicine (BAM), a coalition of governors, business and organized labor with one objective - closing loopholes used by brand name drug manufacturers to prevent or delay lower-priced generic drugs from reaching the marketplace when patents expired. Governor Dean created and coordinated unanimous passage of NGA policy on the need to reform the Hatch-Waxman Act. Thanks to his leadership with other governors, the U.S. Senate and House have included provisions that would close some loopholes in the currently pending Medicare prescription drug bill.

Preferred Drug Lists and Supplemental Rebates – Under Governor Dean, Vermont has been a leader in lowering drug costs in the Medicaid program. Dean wants to expand these measures nationally:



Preferred Drug Lists (PDLs) to ensure that doctors and patients use less expensive medications where clinically possible. Vermont started with one class of drugs - Gastric acid reducers – which includes the highly-advertised drugs Prilosec and Nexium, and put a less expensive therapeutically equivalent alternative drug on the preferred list. The results have been remarkable: Vermont’s Medicaid expenditure on gastric acid reducers has been slashed by 43%.

Forcing Pharmacy Benefits Managers (PBMs) to have transparent contracts with the manufacturers to disclose any financial incentives they might receive from drug manufacturers. Vermont was one of the first states to implement such an agreement, and this is another step that Governor Dean wants to take nationally.

Finally, Vermont last summer expanded the PDL and began to negotiate supplemental rebates with drug companies, in addition to those the companies provide in accordance with federal Medicaid law.
The Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America, a trade group known as PhRMA filed suit against the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, questioning HHS’ authority to grant states the ability to use PDL’s. Governor Dean organized 22 other Governors who sent a letter of support to Secretary Tommy Thompson on August 12, 2002. In addition, Governor Dean organized a press conference on this suit with other Governors at the National Governors Association summer meeting.

Disclosure of Gifts to Doctors – Last June, Governor Dean signed a bill into law which, among other things, made Vermont the first state in the nation to require pharmaceutical manufacturers to disclose the value, nature, and purpose of any gift, fee, subsidy, or other economic benefit provided to any physician, hospital, nursing home, pharmacist or health benefit plan administrator in Vermont.

Re-importation for personal use – Governor Dean has endorsed the strategy of United Health Alliance’s Medicine Assist program, enabling U.S. citizens to obtain prescription drugs from Canada via fax. Canadian drug prices are, on average, half those in the United States. Governor Dean has held numerous press conferences encouraging people to take advantage of the plan to make their prescription drug costs more affordable.

A Strong Record of Protecting Victims of Domestic Violence

"Domestic violence impacts every aspect of a victim's life and is a problem that requires a community response. – Howard Dean, MD"

Child Custody – Governor Dean signed a law that requires judges to consider evidence of abuse when determining parental rights in divorce cases.

Child Support – Governor Dean signed the Abuse Prevention and Child Support law which requires abusers to pay child support and living expenses to spouses who request court protection and have no other means of support.

Confidentiality – Governor Dean signed a law entitled the Address Confidentiality for Victims of Domestic Violence, Sexual Assault and Stalking, known as the “Safe at Home” program that offers victims of domestic violence, sexual assault and stalking a free and confidential mailing address through the office of the Secretary of State.

Government Involvement – Governor Dean signed an executive order enhancing state assistance to victims of domestic violence. Efforts include raising awareness of domestic violence in local workplaces, providing state employees access to a 24-hour domestic violence resource hotline, and granting state employees who are victims of domestic violence time off from their jobs to seek counseling, medical assistance or alternate housing.

Public Education – Governor Dean included information about domestic violence on the paycheck of every state employee.

Improving Community Response – Governor Dean created the Domestic Violence Fatality Review Commission to examine domestic violence fatalities, identify strengths and weaknesses in the community response to domestic violence, educate the public about intervention and prevention, and recommend policies to reduce fatalities due to domestic violence.

Child Abuse – During Governor Dean’s tenure, Vermont was the first state to institute a statewide protocol for abuse investigations. In that time the incidence of physical and sexual abuse of children declined 45%, including a 64% decline in physical abuse of victims younger than 4 and a 43% decline in physical abuse victims younger than 7. The decline in child sexual abuse was even more dramatic, with a 72% decline in victims younger than 4 and 84% decline in victims younger than 7.

“Healthy Families Visionary Leadership Award” – Presented by Prevent Child Abuse America to Governor Dean in March 2002.

A Strong Record of Accomplishment on Issues Important to Women


Dean's Record on Supporting Women

Women Appointees - Governor Dean appointed more women to positions of leadership during his tenure than any other state. At one point, the percentage of women appointees in his Administration was higher than the percentage of women in the state. Also, about 50% of his judicial appointments were women.

Pro-Choice - Gov. Dean is a strong supporter of abortion rights. He believes that government should not interfere with medical decisions. He stood against legislative proposals that would require parental notification and ban late-term abortions.

Fair Pay - Vermont passed legislation that expands federal wage discrimination laws into state jurisdiction and toughens the law so that the federal standards apply to all Vermont businesses.

Family Leave - Governor Dean is in favor of paid family leave, similar to the legislation that passed in California.
Dean's Record on Health Care

Health Coverage - 96% of Vermont’s children have health care coverage through Governor Dean’s Dr. Dynasaur program, and an additional 3% are eligible for coverage.

Child Immunization - 81.1% of children are fully immunized by age 2 and 97% by the time they start kindergarten, which makes Vermont second in the national in child immunizations.

Prenatal Care - More pregnant women get early, comprehensive prenatal care. Currently about 89% of pregnant women enter prenatal care during first trimester of pregnancy.

Breast Cancer - More Vermont women are being screened for breast cancer, and the death rate from breast cancer is significantly down. It’s now below the U.S. rate thanks in part to Ladies First, the state’s comprehensive breast and cervical cancer screening system.

Teen Pregnancy - During Governor Dean’s tenure, pregnancy rates for young teens dropped 49%. Vermont has the lowest teen pregnancy rate in the country.

Contraceptive Coverage - In 1999, Governor Dean signed a law that requires insurance plans with prescription drug coverage to cover FDA-approved forms of contraceptives. As a doctor, Dean knows that affordable access to family planning is essential for women. Insurance plans that do not cover contraceptives are unacceptable and discriminatory. Vermont is one of only eight states to receive an "A" grade from NARAL for access to contraceptives.
Dean's Record on Children and Families

Child Support – Under Gov. Dean, Vermont’s Office of Child Support has been very successful in meeting the challenge of collecting child support. In 1999, Vermont achieved a rating of 65% of cases with collections. This is the second highest collection rate in the country — in spite of increasing caseloads. The national average was 37% of cases with collections, a figure that Vermont has nearly doubled.

Success by Six – As a doctor, Governor Dean has placed a strong emphasis on early childhood prevention and health care, which is why 89% of pregnant Vermont women enter prenatal care in the first trimester of pregnancy. In Vermont, 91% of families with a new birth received a community visit, and parents who need it, get help and support.

Child Care – Our investment in Child Care Services has increased by 176% since 1991. Unlike some other states, there is no wait list for working parents with young children who are eligible for a childcare subsidy.

Child Abuse – Vermont was the first state to institute a statewide protocol for abuse investigations. In return, Vermont saw a 45% decline in physical and sexual abuse of children. This included a 64% decline in physical abuse victims ages 0-3 and a 43% decline in physical abuse victims ages 0-6.

Welfare Reform – Vermont was the first state to implement a statewide time-limited welfare program. In 1994, two years before federal welfare reform, Vermont reformed its program. Over the course of the 7-year project, caseloads declined by more than 48% and employment and earnings of participants rose more than 42%.

A Record of Commitment to Serving the Elderly


“We can provide higher quality of life by avoiding institutional services whenever possible.”

Prescription Drugs – Governor Dean understands the importance of access to prescription drugs in preserving health and avoiding unnecessary institutional care of our seniors and people with disabilities. While in office Governor Dean expanded pharmaceutical assistance to these Vermonters. Vermont has three pharmacy assistance programs with the level of benefits for each program indexed to household income. Seniors and people with disabilities can have incomes up to 225% of the federal poverty line and receive assistance with their prescriptions.
Nursing Homes – Governor Dean decreased the state’s reliance on nursing homes by mandating that funds be shifted from nursing homes to other services, such as home health care where people can live with independence and dignity. Over $30 million dollars has been shifted from paying for nursing homes to paying for in-home and community based services.

Home Health Care – Between 1996 and 2000, there was a 161.3% increase in individuals receiving a home-based waiver and services, while there was a decrease of 13.5% in individuals living in nursing homes.


Here's some facts for you since I know your intentions are pure and you are merely a good samaritan sacrificing your time and efforts to save our nation from this horrid fascist of a man they call Dean. ;-)

Not that you are obessesing or anything....

Julie

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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 06:53 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Federally funded programs
Almost every single one of them. I don't give the Doctor much credit for implementing programs that people like Dick Gephardt and John Kerry authored and passed.
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loyalsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 07:13 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. And yet.....
They never pushed a universal healthcare plan. Yet suddenly, they believe they will get one passed when they have LESS power in the legislature. The fools who fall for the fallacy of the power of the president. The person who will get it done is the one who comes in with original thinking and a fresh face. Remember, all of the legislators who fight against Kerry and Gep have been doing it for a very long time. They know their MO, and they know how to beat them. It's been going on for a long time. These guys had their chance to show their stuff on healthcare. They didn't start talking about universal healthcare until Dean started making waves on that issue last winter.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. First, what universal health care??
Edited on Mon Nov-24-03 07:29 AM by sandnsea
I know Dean keeps saying he's going to guarantee health care to every American, but his plan doesn't do that. So what is this universal health care garbage?

And if someone like Ted Kennedy, who has pushed for universal health care (along with Kerry), can't get it through, how in the world will Howard Dean?

http://www.issues2000.org/2004/John_Kerry_Health_Care.htm

The reason Kerry's will pass is because it offers states real incentives to cover adults, it offers many more cost cutting measures, and it is a buy-in to the existing federal insurance. It's not a big new massive government program. Kennedy and Kerry have been the main people who have gotten all the health care bills passed in the last 15 years. Including the bill that required coverage of pregnant women and children up to 6 back in 1987, when Vermont implemented it and called it Dr. Dynasaur. I trust them to be able to do this a whole lot more than Howard Dean who continues to piss off the entire Congress by using terms like cockroaches and washington claptrap.

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loyalsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. Why did it take his own problem
Edited on Mon Nov-24-03 08:02 AM by loyalsister
for him to care???? Kerry said himself that he decided after he had his surgery that it was a priority.
Kerry's program does nothing for people who can't afford to buy into it.
Dean's program has the best chance of passing because it is the most flexible. I have heard this from many legislators. Several who participate in the national legislative health care conference. People with credibility- as opposed to amateur pundits on DU.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. What?
Did you even read anything I posted? He's been working on this for years. There would be almost no health plan in any state without federal funds. Kerry has been authored, sponsored or cosponsored almost every health care bill in the last 15 years. Just because he uses a story about his cancer, doesn't mean he hasn't been working on health care for years. Good lord.

And you didn't answer my question, why is Howard lying about guaranteeing health care to every American? His plan doesn't do that.
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KaraokeKarlton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #12
22. Actually, his plan would cover everyone
However, they know some people will opt out, which accounts for the number they predict that will not be covered under his plan.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #22
26. No it doesn't
It doesn't guarantee coverage to every American.

First, and most important, in order to extend health coverage to every uninsured child and young adult up to age 25;

Second, we'll give a leg up to working families struggling to afford health insurance. Adults earning up to 185% of the poverty level;

We'll establish an affordable health insurance plan people can buy into;

The federal government will pick up 70% of COBRA premiums for employees transitioning out of their jobs, but we'll expect employers to pay the cost of extending coverage for an additional two months;

Business tax deductions as part of a compact between American taxpayers and corporate America;

This plan doesn't cover the unemployed, it doesn't fully address self-employed, and it doesn't discuss the actual costs to buy into a plan. It isn't a guarantee every American will have health insurance, especially when he won't say how much that insurance would cost for an average family of four. It'll also be labeled as a massive new government plan, socialized medicine, a boondoggle, a liberal give-away plan that's going to take away choice. It is highly unlikely that anything that creates a whole new medical program will pass.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #5
18. I see. So this is all done
with resources available to every other Governor in America? Did Vermont exclusively receive funding that was put into these programs? I suspect Vermont is probably a "donor" state like Michigan so I doubt they see a bigger return than what they send to DC. I could be wrong on that "donor" status though but I doubt it....

Back to the point of you trying to dismiss all Dean accomplishments in VT with your "federal funding" argument, every state in the nation gets federal funding. Why don't all the other states have the same situations then? In fact, if it's such a no-big-deal, anyone-could-do-it, why the dramatic difference among states on these issues?

For all your declarations that you merely like to point out facts Dean supporters don't like, this demostration of your inability to give any credit where it's due belies those assertions.

Reminds me of a chronicle from back in the day.....biographer of a guy named William Marshal. Hated King John so much wouldn't give him credit for the very good things he did (though they were pretty rare). We know because of government records from the time of these omissions, and the obvious bias throughout the chronicle requires little speculation regarding John-related omissions/inaccuracies in an otherwise sterling acoount of the period. The Historie of William Marshal is what you remind me of sometimes....

Julie

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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. Poverty, racial issues, cities
There's alot of issues other states have that Vermont doesn't. Someone from Michigan would be painfully aware. Still many states have coverage rates almost as high as Vermont, 18 have 95% coverge rates of children for example. Some states, like Alabama, actually increased their coverage of children by a wider percentage than Vermont did. That's also why I think Howard is going to be getting in WAY over his head as President, he doesn't even recognize the problems exist and that what works in Vermont bears no resemblance to what will work in New Orleans.

Without federally funded programs, most states would have very little health care available. Even Howard Dean said in the Medscape article posted that universal coverage couldn't be done without a federal program. Damn cockroaches.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. Indeed, Michigan is much different
with a lot more resources than Vermont and yet, after 12 years of Engler (R) we're so screwed. And good luck gettin' anything from the system for you or your kid. Been that way a long time.

In spite of the sea of money that flows through Michigan we are worse off than Vermont in plenty of ways.

I wish we'd had a Republican like Dean at the helm.

Julie
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. Your coverage rate is 92.4%
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. For example
"Kerry is a staunch advocate of improved access to health care. His efforts include the Medicare Reform Act, the Patients Bill of Rights, the State Children's Health Insurance Plan (SCHIP), the Nurse Reinvestment Act, the Women's Health Equity Act and the Family and Medical Leave Act. He has also been awarded Legislator of the Year by the National Institute of Health (NIH) and the Massachusetts Home Health Care Association in 2000 and 2001, respectively."

http://sbc.senate.gov/democrat/108press/feb503.html

Plus the 1997 Early Childhood Development Act,
1998 "Zero to Three" Association's "Achievement Award" for work on early childhood development issues, Early Learning Opportunity Act, and 1994 Violence Against Women Act providing funding for shelters, hotlines, increased law enforcement and more.

Dean wouldn't have a campaign if it weren't for the work of Congress during the Clinton years.
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 07:18 AM
Response to Original message
9. Gee, how come on another thread I was advised against
attacking other candidates because the supporters of other candidates might get offended...then how come it is fair game to continually dredge up anything and everything to attack Dean? Y'all want to dish it out? Don't pout when it flies back at you.
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Skwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. People are trying to expose the truth about Howard Dean. e/o/m
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CWebster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. Yeah
between you and Bunter -the perfect team to accomplish that.

Right.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. Policies vs. personal attacks
There's a difference. When Dean can't argue policy, he spouts off a personal attack, cockroaches, washington claptrap. Very familiar Rovian behavior.

It would be nice if Dean would talk about policy and not make personal slams like Dick Gephardt hasn't gotten anything done. Or even if he would keep his focus on Bush, like he says Democrats should do anytime the heat gets too heavy for him.

The post is policy and what the primaries are supposed to be about.
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phirili Donating Member (451 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #14
24. Exactly right. 75% of Brush Dean's policy is personal attacks and claptrap
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displacedtexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 07:27 AM
Response to Original message
13. state of vermont stats (for reference)
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 08:05 AM
Response to Original message
17. That's it
<flush>. Problem solved.
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Hep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
23. I hope dean dies ina plane crash
See, none of the mindless bashers here can outdo me.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. dupe
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