MSNBC: Kerry was one winner of the debate. Clark was another.

[Karmadillo]

Before the flamefest breaks out, the assessment of Kerry and Clark is not contained in the part I excerpted. Also, the article doesn't imply other candidates weren't also winners. Listening to the rerun version, it appears to me a number of candidates did very well.

http://msnbc.com/news/997620.asp?0sl=-21#BODY

<edit>

The debate’s high point came when Kerry no fewer than six times pressed Dean to answer the question of whether as president he would seek to reduce the rate of growth of Medicare.

Dean deftly avoided giving a direct answer, at one point changing the topic by saying, “What I intend to do in Medicare is to increase reimbursements for states like Iowa and Vermont....”

Kerry refused to let go, saying, “You still haven’t answered the question.”

Reporters had no better luck in the post-debate spin room. When one reporter asked Dean again whether he’d reduce Medicare’s growth rate, Dean replied, “I said Medicare was off the table, cuts in Medicare are off the table.”

How about the rate of growth? the reporter persisted.
“Cuts in Medicare are off the table,” Dean repeated.

more...

[Skwmom]

1. If Bush refused to answer like Dean did

the Dean supporters on this board would be denouncing Bush.

[maggrwaggr]

2. a high point? Kerry doing his Sean Hannity impersonation?

Fuck that article and fuck Kerry. He was an asshole. That was no high point.

[DrFunkenstein]

14. Fuck that article and fuck Kerry. He was an asshole.

Think your world is just a wee bit black & white?

[maggrwaggr]

18. anybody doing a Hannity impersonation is an asshole IMHO

and if that makes me black/white, so be it.

[robsul82]

19. Funky funk...

...did you not hear the audience LAUGH at Kerry with his final "I want to respond to what Howard Dean just said?" He was being an asshole. Period.

Later.

RJS

[Khephra]

27. Personally, I think he was doing an impersonation of Tweety

I like Kerry. I like Senator Kerry a hell of a lot.

Candidate Kerry is, however, getting on my last nerve. Dean might have answered his question, had Kerry shut the fuck up and let Dean try to finish a sentence. Kerry won the "I Wanna Be A Media Whore" award for last night's showing. I was watching that section with one semi-political person and another apolitical person and they both yelled "Shut UP!" at the tv when Kerry kept on interupting Dean.

First rule of conversation (outside of punditland) is: if you ask someone a question, then shut the hell up and let the person answer you before you ask him/challenge him.

RUDE...Rush level rude.

Kerry used to be my hero. Now he's getting close to being a zero.

Now if you (the rest of the people in this thread and reading it) believe that the fact I support Dean makes me unable to change opinions about the candidates. Well, you couldn't be more wrong. I've grown to love Sharpton, a man that I knew very, very little about. Braun, ditto there. My feelings for both of them have only grown more positive as this primary season has gone on.

Kucinich, well, I've always loved him, so not much change there.

Lieberman...sigh...no change there either. The man is totally unelectable as a Democratic president for way too many reasons to go into here.

Gephardt...he's actually impressed me a few times. Usually when he tries to attack Bush. Most of the rest of the time he still comes off as just being there.

Edwards? My opinion on him has worsened. I think he may have his heart in the right place, but he's screwing the party by running so soon and dropping out of the Senate. I used to think he was an ok guy, but now I'm starting to think he thinks he's Clinton Jr. and wants to prove it to the world....which he isn't, sad to say. Maybe in another 10 or so years after he had been in the Senate more. But not now, and probably because of his "I must be President or nothing else" bit, he'll probabably be nothing else.

Kerry is trying to reinvent himself more times than Madonna...and he's listening to to many different people than listening to his own heart...and it shows. I thought he had a couple of great debates earlier in the campaign, but his Dean fixation is driving him to act like a no-class idiot.

And Clark...

Clark impressed the hell out of me. WAY impressed. I've been cold to him before, and still am because of a few things he's said. But he finally knocked Kucinich out of the tied-for-second-choice postion. I really was pleasantly surprised by his showing tonight. He's gone from being "ok" in my book to being "AOK!".

Dean did ok. His biggest accomplishment for the evening was being ready to be hammered and taking the situation into hand when it did happen. He did that quite well. But he didn't reach out to the people like he's done in the past. So it was just ok in my book.

[joefree1]

3. "he gave back as good as he got"

"But Dean knows his principal targets need to be Kerry and Gephardt, not Kucinich, so he gave back as good as he got to those two contenders. Dean went after Kerry in particular for his vote on the Iraq war."
KERRY AND IRAQ WAR
When Kerry touted his experience in dealing with foreign affairs, Dean shot back, “His experience led him to give the president of the United States a blank check to invade Iraq.... That was an abdication and a failure on the part of Congress. And Sen. Kerry was part of that failure.”
http://msnbc.com/news/997620.asp?0sl=-21#BODY

Just keepin it real.

[Karmadillo]

4. Biden-Lugar was also a blank check.

n/t

[joefree1]

11. Not according to the LA Times

The main distinction was that the Biden-Lugar approach said Bush could not go to war without explicit U.N. authorization unless he issued a declaration that Iraq presented a "grave" threat to U.S. security.
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-debate-timenov24,1,4931533.story?coll=la-home-headlines

Just keepin it real.

[Karmadillo]

12. Do you think Bush would have hesitated to issue a declaration

stating Iraq posed a "grave" threat to the US regardless of whether the evidence suggested otherwise?

[Egnever]

16. Again the difference is.....

Had he gone ahead and asserted that Iraq was a grave threat his tit would be in a wringer now. There is pretty much undeniable proof now that Iraq was not a grave threat and this moving of the goalposts bullshit he is doing now would not be possible. No garbage about the reason we went was because saddam was a terible dictator. He would be on record in front of the congress declaring that Iraq was a grave threat So much so that we could no longer afford to wait for diplomacy in the UN to work towards an effective resolution.

In short bush would now being impeached for lying to congress instead of struting arround in his toy soldier uniforms.

Kerry is full of shit and he knows it!

[Karmadillo]

17. Not really. Bush would either insist the evidence

as it currently exists demonstrates Iraq was a "grave" threat or he would say the evidence as it existed at that time appeared to demonstrate it. Consequences regardless would have been no more harsh than what he's currently suffering.

[sandnsea]

21. He already lied to Congress

The SOTU is an address to Congress commanded by the Constitution. He lied in it. There are numerous lies in that Address. He's not being impeached and he wouldn't be by exchanging the words continuing threat with grave threat.

[blm]

6. But Dean is being disingenuous on that because he supported an IWR with

the Biden-Lugar amendment and it's about time that Kerry and Gephardt pointed out Dean's deception when he claims to be antiwar and accuses them of being prowar when their two original positions were so much closer.

[IndianaGreen]

5. Did we watch the same MSNBC show?

The focus group that Frank Luntz ran agreed that Dean and Clark won the debate.

Even Chris Matthews, who is quite an asshole, said that Dean won, and that Clark did a very good job. Matthews thought that Kerry sounded like a school master.

[sandnsea]

7. Because he thought it was about temper

And it wasn't. It was about Dean never giving a straight answer on anything. Matthews thought Dean won because he didn't lose his temper. If he understood it was about Dean never giving a straight answer, then he would know Dean lost because he didn't give straight answers tonight either.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

8. Tweety Whore thought that Clark did well??? Why is he...

suddenly not defending Bush?

By the way, to say that Tweety "is quite and asshole" is an understatement!

[Karmadillo]

9. Chris Matthews? A Luntz focus group?

Not exactly sources of convincing judgments when it comes to matters Democratic.

[Justice]

35. Mattthews Thought Clark Won

After he tried (successfully) to get Fineman to reconsider, Matthews said he thought Fineman correct in the first place when Fineman said Clark won.

I thought Clark's word on Iraq were dynamite - we ought not to be focused on the resolution - we should be focused on what Bush did and that he lied to us.

[KaraokeKarlton]

10. I found Kerry to be pathetic, rude, pompous and petty

and anything but presidential. Dean has effectively rendered Kerry politically impotent. Kerry is so hung up on his resentment and frustration with Dean doing so much better than he is that he's become entirely ineffective. Dean will have the same impact on Bush. It's clear that attacks on Dean only make him stronger. Bush and Rove don't have anything worth selling to voters about Bush, so their only defense will be to attack the nominee. What are they going to do when that proves totally ineffective against Dean? They have NOTHING to fall back on and Bush's campaign will face the same problems Kerry's campaign has faced. Bush will become frustrated and make one sloppy mistake after another while Dean frames the race however he wants it to be framed while Bush and Rove are forced to react to everything Dean does.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mitchum]

31. I don't know how anyone can stand those cold New Hampshire...

winters with such thin skin.

I imagine this post will be deleted just as your "outrageous" one was
10 9 8 7 6...

[blm]

29. If Kerry & Gephardt succeeded in getting the press to scrutinize Dean

the way they should have the last 11 months, then they'll have done this nation a HUGE service and rescue the Dem nomination from a guy whose lies and inconsistencies on important Dem issues would be the downfall of the entire party in 2004.

[IndianaGreen]

33. Kerry's potshot at Clark's military record was a low point

I thought that Kerry's potshot at Clark's military record yesterday on Chris Matthews's post-debate show was a particular low point in Kerry's pathetic campaign.

Clark only served 7 months in Vietnam, but what Kerry failed to say was that Clark left Vietnam in a stretcher with four life-threatening wounds.

Kerry should salvage what little dignity he has left and drop out of the race!

[HazMat]

34. Ok. And then you woke up.

"Dean will frame the race"

Wrong. The voters in a general election aren't angry anti-war Dean supporters. The GOP would do very easily what the other Dem candidates are finding it hard to do to Dean: reveal him to be the immature, "just say no" anti-war, no-solution loudmouth candidate against the "mature, adult, experienced, strong" candidate. Bush/Rove would have no problem with Dean.. he would be crushed easily. The general election plays more to mainstream opinion which wants someone to project stability, maturity and experience, not volatility, immaturity and rage .. someone who wouldn't hesitate to use force to defend our national security. America would choose an imperialist like Bush any day over a perceived pacifist like Dean -- even if Dean proves Bush is wrong. People vote more about what's good for them (what they perceive to be their safety/national security) than what's right and wrong about invading Iraq or any other country.

[pasadenaboy]

13. my two cents

Clark won big

Dean, Edwards, Braun came out well

Kucinich and Sharpton came out okay

Gephardt and Kerry seemed shrill and negative

[loyalsister]

20. I agree except for Sharpton

The exchange over Tawana Brawley did not go well for Sharpton. Braun always seems to do well. Edwards did do well. The only time I have had a criticism of Edwards in debates was when the flag issue was hot. The high road thing worked well for Dean. It lended legitimacy to his attacks when they came.

I agree about Kerry and Gep. They just truly looked like children.

Clark was awesome! He showed some very clever finesse. He very carefully said what I have wanted to shout.
"OK I'll vote for you if you get the nomination, but how could you have been duped by this president?????"

[TLM]

22. Kerry came off as desperate and annoying...

trying to bait Dean, and Dean wouldn't go for it. Then going back in the gay mariage segment... sad.

Clark creeped me out with the religious stuff.

Dean was great, dealt with Kerry and Gephardt very well. They both came off looking desperate, both fixiated on Dean. They gave Dean all the face time in this debate, and did so while handing him sharp debate retorts.

Edwards also was great... still like him for VP.

Kucinich did great! Came off as much more mature this time around. I was impressed, even when he was taking a shot at Dean on WTO and NAFTA. He did not come off as shrill like he often does.

[lumpy]

23. Clark was truly the winner in this debate

Why would the fact that Clark prays to his God creep you out? He is not saying that God is running him or the show. Prayer can be a means of finding the godly abilities inherent within ourselves. Some people use meditation with similar results.
I get the definate impression that Edwards dances around the questions and ends up mouthing the standard rhetoric. I will admit that he is a cute guy, speaks pretty well but appears to be without genuine conviction. He seems to lack, what you might say, stength in his nebulous covictions and a certain naivity.
Dean comes across that he is resting on his monetary laurels at this point and appears over confident. I like the fire in his belly.
Clark seems confident in his extensive experience and in himself without the arrogance that is so dominant in Bush and I like his ability to look at the future in a positive manner while still being aware that it will take more than words to bring this nation back into normalcy.
The other candidates just don't have the surface persona that can win elections. The fact that two are black, one is a woman and one is simply not pretty enough and maybe a little too serious. Gep is just Gep, a good (valuable man) but with the appeal of Fritz Mondale.

[lumpy]

25. I just gotta' say this

Many of the voting public vote for the persona, charisma or what ever you might call it without much thought to the issues before them. They like the glitz the glamour, this is what put Reagan in office. Remember the sad underfunded suedo shabby-chic campaign that Mondale put up with? Brown paper banners falling over, Geraldine constantly adjusting her ill-fitting glasses. Absolutely no glitz and glamour, no grease paint or silver streamers, tons of ballons. For many, sad to say, this is what sells a candidate.
You can be sure George is racking in the bucks to put on a similar campaign with the addition of Roosevelt's "don't change horses in the middle of the stream".
What will save the Dems is beaucoup money for the glitz, a candidate with glamour, charm, brains and a silver tongue with positive ideas for the future.
Clark comes closest to filling this bill.

[TLM]

26. It wasn't the fact he prays to his god...

it was the way he said it... just creepy.

I do think Clark had some sharp shots at Bush. I gotta give him credit for that. Clark did well.

And Dean's comment on Kucinich's courage voting against the war was a nice touch.

[Adjoran]

24. The frontrunner is always the target

That never changes in a multi-candidate primary. Whenever a guy is perceived to have the lead, he is attacked by everyone else (at least those who think they have a chance to win). There's nothing wrong with that, as long as you attack the positions and not the person. Bringing out the differences helps the voters make an informed choice.

Kerry has to act boldly. The latest polls show him trailing Dean, not only in NH, but in his home state of MA. If he can't beat Dean in their own backyard, his chances elsewhere don't look good. He needs to turn the tide quickly, or it's curtains for his campaign. The foreshortened primary schedule magnifies the momentum and media gains from early wins.

A candidate doesn't have to win Iowa or NH to win, but winning one or the other could ensure survival past the next round of early February contests in South Carolina, Missouri, Arizona, New Mexico, Oklahoma, and Delaware. A candidate who doesn't win one of those would have to finish second in at least four of the seven (counting NH) to remain viable.

I think all debates after the first February primaries should be restricted to the top three or four, the candidates who have a practical chance to win the nomination. With all due respect to the rest of the field, these 9-way debates don't give the contenders enough time to build their case to America.

[Egnever]

28. Yet again I wonder where these pundits come from

Kerry was a winner because of more marsha marsha marsha?

These guys make this shit up on the fly or what?

Heres my take on the same situation.

If you listened to the crowd when Kerry started on this attack they laughed at him. Not with him at him. This does not make this guy a winner of this exchange.

Kerry looks less like a president and more desperate with each apearance. Its a shame really cause he has great credentials, He could be a fantastic candidate. Unfortunately he decided very early that trying to smear dean was his ticket to the white house, and despite the dismal failure of this plan to date he continues on this course.


Ahh well he gets a day of pundits saying how great he was , followed by another week of lost ground in the polls. If he continues down this road I predict kerry being next to drop out. Kucinich braun and sharpton are in it to make a statement at this point. Kerry on the other hand has no such driving fire for change other than a change that makes him president. If he gets crushed in NH he will drop out.

thats my prediction.

[Octafish]

30. Sen. Kerry is the best candidate and most qualified to be President.

John Kerry is progressive in domestic affairs.

He's a hawk when it comes to national security.

The guy's a debate champ.

If Dean won't go 1-on-1 with him, you know Bush is trembling in his cowgirl boots.

[mitchum]

32. I have nothing to add to that

because you speak the truth, Octafish

[HazMat]

36. Kerry is a great American

The record speaks for itself. Kerry can get the votes of patriotic voters (which is a very large percentage of voters in the middle in this post 9-11 world) and military people, where draftdodger, anti-war, "Hamas are soldiers" Dean wouldn't stand a chance.

And the IWR-yes vote was the correct vote to protect this country, based on the evidence presented. Bill Clinton -- the ultimate moderate electable Democrat -- would've voted for it. I'm still waiting for Dean to come out and blast Bill and Hill -- you know that'll never happen.

[ima_sinnic]

37. Kerry has no class at all

If he's so great, why does he have to constantly attack Dean? Why doesn't he attack Bush instead? Why doesn't he give us some reason to vote FOR him instead of AGAINST Dean? The way he so rudely again and again interrupted Dean while Dean was trying to explain his Medicare position shows he is arrogant, pompous, self-centered and has no class. What he and all of Dean's detractors don't understand is that Dean is a master at turning a problem into an opportunity. Every dig at him is turned into yet more benefit for Dean. If Kerry had half of Dean's innovation and creativity he'd be successful at uniting the people instead of dividing them--and he might even win some supporters. He doesn't have a chance of a snowball in h*ll of winning the nomination. The sooner he drops out and stops giving the Repukes their talking points the happier I will be--but in actuality he is giving Dean some great practice for the assault to come from the Rove machine so in that way I guess he has found his niche within this campaign.

on edit: btw: when Dean does get the nomination, is Kerry going to continue these attacks? why doesn't he just go to work for the Republicans after his own campaign goes belly up and make it official? because after these months of denigrating Dean it's going to be very very awkward for him to put up a show of going with the Democratic candidate whole-heartedly. what a fool.

[DrFunkenstein]

42. Such Strange Fantasies

Do you think Dean will feel a little awkward whole-heartedly supporting a Bush-lite cockroach?

The funny thing about your post is the sense of amnesia that Dean people seem to have. Dean has been slamming ALL of the candidates with distortion from DAY 1, and no one laid a finger on him until September.

But I suppose there alot of whiny, thin-skinned people in the world. It's just strange that one campaign could attract so many.

Did you ever notice how Dean calls people "Tim Russert" whenever they throw a mildly difficult question his way? This is the guy that blew up on George "The Greek Softball" Stephanopoulus! That's saying something! It's like losing it on Larry King!

[DrFunkenstein]

39. Here Is How Bill Clinton Would Voted On IWR

"The credible threat to use force, and when necessary, the actual use of force, is the surest way to contain Saddam's weapons of mass destruction program, curtail his aggression and prevent another Gulf War." - Bill Clinton.

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/1998/12/17/loc_clintons_statement.html

[ima_sinnic]

38. Dean won't go 1-on-1 with him b/c that would be inappropriate

. . . it would be very arrogant of the 2 of them to assume that they are "the" runoff candidates. Since that idea came from Kerry it makes sense that it is arrogant. Also, Kerry's idea of "debate" is to unleash a string of personal attacks rather than to explain and defend his stand on issues, so it would be a pathetic and embarrassing show for Kerry and his supporters should be relieved that that particular event won't be happening. Dean will soon be debating another Dem candidate, whoever is left standing after the primaries, and it won't be Kerry.

[DrFunkenstein]

41. Do You Actually Believe Dean Would Beat Kerry One on One?

Just answer the question - do you believe that Dean would beat Kerry?

Just answer the question - do you believe that Dean would beat Kerry?

Just answer the question - do you believe that Dean would beat Kerry?

Not in a million friggin' years and you know it.

[Julien Sorel]

40. Who cares? Kerry's a decent guy.

He isn't lying. He's just trying to campaign. Nothing there was offensive. The Kerry and Clark people have gotten along well here. Both candidates are essentially honest, and both have records of putting the interest of the country and Democratic Party above their own personal interests. I would hate to see people here go after each others' throats over normal politicking. If he'd made something up, or distorted, it would be different, but he didn't.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

43. Thanks Karmadillo

I wouldn't have known this for all the Deanial here.

[Forkboy]

44. I would think that after the Bush/Gore debates

that no one in their right mind would take the media's opinion of a winner seriously :shrug: