Dems Talk About Iraq, Dean Talks About IWR

[DrFunkenstein]

Is it just me, or did it seem that even Kucinich has grown tired of the IWR debate? Clark also said we should get past it. The point Dennis made was that one way or another, we are in Iraq and we have to deal with it. It seems that most people are focused on developing a plan to deal with the situation, except those that plan to use Iraq and the dying soldiers as a wedge for political gain.

Clearly for the internet activists here at DU, the IWR is an inexhaustible topic. No matter what you are talking about, from tax cuts to health care, Dean supporters will gravitate immediately back to the vote. Somehow I doubt that most Americans share such a fixation.

The IWR, like a wonderful grassroots campaign, will have no bearing whatsoever on how a Democratic Presidency would be run. So why do so many supporters go running for the shelter of campaign process and a vote Dean never had to make? What makes them so afraid to debate policy? Seriously, what is the ratio of Dean policy threads to campaign process threads? What would happen, hypothetically, if they had to actually discuss - gulp - issues instead of saying, I don't like that half of the field because they are Bush-lite?

My feeling is that take away process and take away IWR, and you are not left with a whole lot of meat on the bone.

Considering that Dean's actual position on dealing with Iraq was identical to Kerry's, I wonder how Clark people feel about Dean's inability to move on. Clark doesn't define himself by what he is not, he defines himself by what he is, and I have much more respect for him. I feel Dean has just used IWR and self-help psychology to cover up for a pretty lackluster platform.

Since I already know the standard anti-Kerry blah blah blah, I'd like to hear something actually new to this discussion. Keep in mind that I don't have problems with anti-Kerry sentiments as long as they're not kneejerk and stupid, as so often is the case.

[La_Serpiente]

1. I thought it was good

that Kerry explained more of his Iraq-War Vote tonight. I think it broke down a lot of perceived barriers.

If you want to see Kerry's rationalization for authorizing the Resolution, click here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=685643

It was an earlier thread explaining it.

[Hep]

2. Can't say you're wrong

There's lots of stuff to move on from. The C flag thing, Vietnam, anything that is more than three years old. But we never move on. I don't know why.

[rumguy]

3. IWR or not

Dean was the one of the few prominent democrats openly questioning the wisdom of the entire doomed venture, and he did it from the start.....

[killbotfactory]

4. Yep.

That's pretty much it. And he got labeled an anti-war dove who's unelectable and will peak once the ground starts spitting up WMD's and Saddam's head is put on a pike and paraded around Baghdad while flowers rain down on our troops.
`
Now he's the frontrunner.

Life is funny.

[DrFunkenstein]

6. Saddam's Head May Show Up

I'm not sure if any Dem can beat Bush if it does. Rove probably has it in his freezer next to the TV dinners.

[Eloriel]

27. And that will not have made the war right, or "won"

It'll give Bush a bump in the polls, but it won't in and of itself guarantee him a win.

It will also work against whoever's nominated.

Eloriel

[DrFunkenstein]

5. So Was Kerry

Kerry was given two choices that did not represent his own views. He went with the vote he felt most responsible towards the lives of Americans in the long run. But Kerry was questioning the build up well before the vote, and well before Dean uttered a word. Kerry was not a Rose Gardener with Gep and Lieb. He was pissed that Gep pulled the carpet from under Biden-Lugar.

[Hep]

9. I believe he had more than two choices.

I don't believe he had to settle for anything. I don't think this reflects some evil in his heart or anything. I just think he made a mistake and needs to say it.

[DrFunkenstein]

10. No, Gep Pretty Much Nailed Down The Coffin

When a questioner said Kerry implied that Gephardt had compromised too easily with the White House, Gephardt replied that the president had made it clear he would not accept a "two-step" process that required him to come back to Congress for authorization of force.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0221-03.htm

Gephardt Caves

HOUSE MINORITY Leader Richard A. Gephardt acceded to the drums of war on Wednesday, agreeing to an overly broad resolution authorizing President George W. Bush to attack Iraq. In the process, Mr. Gephardt undermined efforts in the Senate to limit the war authority to disarmament, rather than regime change.

Mr. Gephardt -- who was joined by other centrist Democrats, including Sen. Joseph I. Lieberman of Connecticut -- claimed to have won important concessions from Mr. Bush, and waxed on about how "this should not be about politics." But the concessions he won were minor, and his actions appear to be driven by the political imperatives of the coming election.

Before Mr. Gephardt decided to cave in on the war resolution, Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle, D-S.D. had hoped to make the Biden-Lugar resolution the basis of a vote in the Senate. That now appears unlikely. Mr. Biden said Wednesday that he was a realist and knew that the new compromise, ballyhooed Wednesday afternoon in the White House Rose Garden, pretty much meant the end of his approach.

Mr. Gephardt has long favored regime change in Iraq and called Saddam a serious threat. But as recently as two weeks ago he said that Mr. Bush was not justified in waging war to overthrow Saddam, only in disarming him -- a position exactly in line with the Biden-Lugar resolution he has torpedoed.

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/1003-01.htm

[Hep]

11. He could have voted against it.

He wouldn't have been the only one. In fact 23 people did vote against it.

[Hep]

12. Like

Wellstone, Boxer, Byrd, Durbin, Feingold, Jeffords, Kennedy, Leahy, etc.

[wtmusic]

14. I'm tired of it, because

though I believe Dean probably wouldn't have voted for it, we just don't know, do we?

I want the guy who's going to hang Bush's head out to dry, and Dean's the most likely to do that.

[sandnsea]

17. Biden-Lugar wasn't the two-step

According to Gephardt:

“Now, whether they will have a one-step or a two-step at the end of the day, I don't know. What the exact language of the one-step will be, I don't know. You have got Biden-Lugar, and our compromises are of the same basic category. And then you have the Levin, or other approach, which is the two-step approach."

http://dickgephardt.house.gov/info/press_releases/index.asp?ID=439

[Lefta Dissenter]

7. I know *I'm* growing tired of it

We all know that the people who voted (or stated opinions) FOR the IWR did so thinking that they had been given accurate information. We all know now that they were given a sack of shit for information. Nobody on that platform (and I can say that since Lieberman wasn't there) would have made the choice to go to war if they had been given accurate information from the start.

Let's just move on with a plan for getting us out. I know that Clark has outlined a specific plan for resolving the Iraq situation, and I'm sure that some of the others have, as well. I think it's time to study up on THOSE differences and figure out how to get the hell out of this mess and leave the Iraqi's with a country that is more than just a pile of rubble and mangled bodies.

[sandnsea]

8. 65% for those IWR voters

In an Iowa poll posted somewhere around here, Dean at 35% and Kerry, Edwards and Gephardt make up the 65% balance. I don't think it's an issue for most voters.

[dsc]

22. There are no undecideds in Iowa?

I want a citation for that (it was posted somewhere doesn't cut it). I frankly think that is flat out false. Every poll I have seen out of Iowa or anywhere else has had double digit undecideds. Prove this.

[Bombtrack]

13. they bring it up to change the subject constantly

such as how ludicrously more difficult it would be for voters to accept his tax platform over Kerry, Clark, and Edwards tax plans.

[AP]

15. Some people are so stuck on this issue, it makes you wonder, if there were

no Iraq War, are they arguing that Bush would be a fine president?

I started writing a post about this to another thread and ended up deleting it. I'm glad Dr.F. is writing about this. It's so idiotic to focus only on the Iraq War. Kucinich is right.

[Hep]

16. Who is focusing just on the war?

???

[Eloriel]

28. well, Dr. F is wrong in any case

Dean and policy issues get discussed a LOT here. I absolutely don't see the weight of the discussions centered around IWR.

Eloriel

[Octafish]

18. Dean talks and talks. So what? Get real, Professor!

The DEMs are trying to DO something about the situation. It's not Dean's fault Dean needs the air time to get to get Dean's message out about Dean being the only candidate who is for peace.



Smile for the camera!

http://dirtypolitics.50megs.com/hoover.htm

http://www.facade.com/biorhythm/relationship/?Celeb=J_Edgar_Hoover&Celeb2=OJ_Simpson

[Scott Lee]

19. I'm not so quick to dismiss an act that meant death for thousands

of innocent Iraqis and hundreds of American soldiers (so far).

Don't let the notorious American five minute attention span kick in on this one. It's too important, both short and long term.

[Mechatanketra]

20. It's not just about the war, it's the process.

A yes vote on IWR was simply and clearly wrong, if you accept the fundamental principle (laid down at the end of WWII) that nations, like individuals, never have the right to take lives except in direct defense of their own (or rather, their citizens') lives.

Thus, a "Yea" on the IWR vote is inexplicable except under one of three bases:

• You believed Bush's justifications for war, in which case you are too gullible to effectively fight Republicans;
• You were afraid of political or PR reprisals from a 'No' vote, in which case you're too cowardly to effectively fight the Republicans;
• You just didn't see anything wrong with a war for profit -- in which case you're too corrupt to effectively fight Republicans.

I call this the Oz Test: support for the IWR is symptomatic of the lack of either a brain, a heart, or nerve. That's why it's still relevant even if the drive to stop the impending war has itself become moot -- because it exposes the insufficiencies (whether of competence, disposition, or other qualities) of various individuals to fight the GOP agenda.

Of course, since we now live through the looking glass, the prevailing trend seems to be to attack those who didn't support the IWR as the ones who were in the wrong -- even though it's clear now that virtually every reason for war cited in the resolution is fraudulent (Iraq was complying with the UN, did not possess weapons, posed no threat to its neighbors or the USA, was not involved with al-Qaeda or 9/11, etc.). "Dammit, you anti-war people, why can't you be wrong like the rest of us!"

[FrenchieCat]

21. I agree....that

It's time to come up with some solutions and become statemen's like. I don't really see any other real deep interesting platform for Dean though....His tax increase on middle class will kill him in the general election....he will be DOA....

That's why he's got 20% and the rest of the field have 80%.....
Duh...do the math!

[dsc]

23. So again there are no undecideds?

I find that impossible to believe. I haven't seen a single poll, anywhere, anytime, any pollster with fewer than double digit undecideds. Please cite yours.

[FrenchieCat]

25. Well the undecided are

still undecided....means that Dean's message, which is the only one you hear about these days isn't knocking them over dead.

Deans percentages will increase, I'm sure of that, not because of his message as much as the omission of any message combined with media saturation. Just like Arnold! except that this time he will lose when the press totally turn on him...which they will after the nomination.

Then it's goodbye country...hello 4th Reicht!

[dsc]

26. and Clark has this huge message that I have been missing

Oh please. I still have no clue what he would do in vast areas of our public life. Clark's message has largley been I wore a uniform and commanded NATO. He has gotten better. But I absolutely guarentee you that there is no way you can come up with an issue that I can't find Dean's position on without me being able to do the same thing in the opposite direction to you twice.

[dsc]

24. Dean has a plan for Iraq

it has been posted several times. Also I want just one citation of this Dean supporter sighting the IWR in any discussion about other subjects.