Full right-wing assault against Dean has begun and will continue:

[janx]

Here is just one example of absolutely nothing of substance, only the expected loudmouth attack typical of the Clinton years.

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/richlowry/rl20031124.shtml

At an afternoon union rally in New York City, Howard Dean is trying to be uplifting. He is talking about progress made in the civil-rights revolution, despite awful setbacks. Dean recalls how we "lost" Martin Luther King Jr., "lost" Robert Kennedy and "lost" schoolgirls in the Birmingham, Ala., church bombing in the 1960s, but before he can finish his riff with a burst of inspiring rhetoric, a voice rings out from the back of the hall: "Let's 'lose' George Bush!"


And so it goes on Planet Dean. Even when the former Vermont governor tries to inspire, he provokes from his audience a call -- by implication -- for the assassination of the president of the United States. The rule for a Dean crowd is: Don't be uplifting if you can be angry instead. Dean has sprinted to his lead in the Democratic primary race by tapping into the deep vein of liberal bitterness at President Bush. A Dean crowd doesn't just clap and wave signs -- it bristles.

(more nothingness at link)

[janx]

1. "Planet Dean"

So original. And it's just dripping with substance, isn't it?

[MercutioATC]

73. Gee, we get our own planet now...the perks just keep getting better...

Of course, that's going to be their strategs regardless of whom Bush faces...marginalize.

[janx]

94. That's what's so poetically funny...Dean's campaign is the

opposite of that. It won't work this time!

[Demobrat]

2. They are so clueless.

It's the hope, stupid.

[janx]

4. They dare not mention the hope that Dean talks about.

It would kill them.

But just wait for the general election...

[janx]

3. The lies begin, too. Lowry has nothing of substance,

so he lies and tells people that Dean suggested an assassination.


This is the kind of crap that has divided our country since Reagan. It's nothing but lies, yet it's not only published, but repeated and broadcast ad infinitum on AM radio.

The surprise for these opportunists and right wingnut crazies? It's not going to work this time!

[Bandit]

5. I'm bristling with or without Dean

How could any American in their right mind not be bristling with what has been wraught on our nation by these fascists?

[Homer12]

6. This is what he is really trying to do

"Even when the former Vermont governor tries to inspire, he provokes from his audience a call -- by implication -- for the assassination of the president of the United States."

He's trying to tie that being against Bush is the same as being partial to assasination.

What a puke? So typical of the right. They all need to go back to journalistic ehtics class.

[janx]

10. Ethics are irrelevant to this administration and its pundits.

The point has been reduced to WINNING, like a football game.

[tlb]

7. How about Max Cleland saying Dean weaseled out of the draft ?

" " A Kerry supporter, former U.S. Sen. Max Cleland of Georgia, said Dean "weaseled out of going to Vietnam on a medical deferment for a bad back and wound up on the ski slopes of Aspen." "



Is Senator Cleland a right winger now too ? After three years of criticism of Bush's military record, is anyone a right winger if they look at Dean's also ?


http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/text/2001798987_ndig23.html

[Scott Lee]

9. Cleland needs to report back to his establishment friends

And sop up his grateful tears on their cassok of holiness.

The antiDeans, the antiDemocrats, the righties, they still don't get what Dean is tapping into. It's timely, and you can't stop this stuff.

[blm]

21. Dean is one of the Dems who pulled the party to the right for years.

You really don't seem to understand that Dean was the highest rated Democratic lawmaker by the CATO Institute while he was governor. The CATO Institute is the far right wing Libertarian group that HATES real Democratic values.

[Hep]

27. Libertasrians are not far right wing

You can't be credible and mischaracterize everyone in your ongoing efforts to attack Dean. Libertarians are not and never have been far right wing.

[janx]

31. Thanks for that clarification on this thread.

I have never voted Libertarian, but I respect their positions on a lot of things.

[Hep]

40. The problem is

that
It's terrifying to see debate take place at such a low level that one is willing to lie in an attempt to make someone else look bad.

[caledesi]

53. Yes, you nailed it Hep. That's was scary. n/t

[Eloriel]

163. I'm sorry, Hep, I disagree

There are Libertarians, and at least one prominent one I can think of (Heal Boortz), who are darned sure pretty right wing.

Eloriel

[Hep]

166. Well

People like boortz push their right wing aspect because they usually follow Rush or Hannity in the lineup. But the libertarian platform is not far right wing.

[janx]

174. Yes, but there are plenty, who call themselves libertarians,

who are simply tired of government sticking its nose into places where it doesn't belong. This includes matters of sexual orientation, religion, etc. In those ways I agree with them.

[blm]

37. Not all Libertarians, but CATO Institute is.

And especially the ones with inroads into the Bush White House.

[Hep]

43. Just stop it

Not all libertarians? We're talking about a party, not an individual or group of individuals. The party is not far right wing, and neither is Cato. You;re going to have to come up with SPECIFIC information to back up your points. This constant mischaracterization is old and tired.

So in your next post, tell us what about Dean's fiscal policy Cato liked, what they might still like, and what's bad about it.

[blm]

71. Here's high praise for Dean from the despicable Stephen Moore

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/073ylkiz.asp

The Appeal of Howard Dean
by Stephen Moore
09/15/2003, Volume 009, Issue 01

SEVERAL YEARS AGO an obscure Democratic governor from the politically inconsequential state of Vermont was the guest speaker at a Cato Institute lunch. His name was Howard Dean. He had been awarded one of the highest grades among all Democrats (and a better grade than at least half of the Republicans) in the annual Cato Fiscal Report Card on the Governors. We were curious about his views because we had heard that he harbored political ambitions beyond the governorship.
>>>>>>
"You folks at Cato," he told us, "should really like my views because I'm economically conservative and socially laissez-faire." Then he continued: "Believe me, I'm no big-government liberal. I believe in balanced budgets, markets, and deregulation. Look at my record in Vermont." He was scathing in his indictment of the "hyper-enthusiasm for taxes" among Democrats in Washington.
He left--and I will never forget the nearly hypnotic reaction. The charismatic doctor had made believers of several hardened cynics. Nearly everyone agreed that we had finally found a Democrat we could work with. Since then, I've watched Dean's career with more than a little interest and we chat from time to time on the phone.
>>>>>>
The media have celebrated Dean's eclectic economic views. The Washington Post gushed on its front page: "As Governor, Dean Was a Fiscal Conservative." Business Week ap-plauds his pro-business credentials. Hammering George W. Bush almost hourly for his big deficits, Dean himself contends he is still an advocate of "fiscal stability" and a leader who will promote a balanced budget . . . "because I balanced my budget every year in Vermont."
>>>>>
But he weathered the storm. Dean is nothing if not a survivor--as well as an iconoclast. Even as he pursued wild-eyed social experiments, Dean carefully nurtured a reputation as a "business-friendly" governor. On numerous occasions he pragmatically swept aside onerous environmental regulations and last-use restrictions (this is the greenest state of all) to make room for business expansion and jobs, jobs, jobs. He supported electricity deregulation to take monopolistic pricing power away from big utilities. He even launched one of the nation's most progressive voucher programs for high school students.

>>>>>>>

[Larkspur]

85. Thanks, blm, you made me like Dean even more

Dean: "Believe me, I'm no big-government liberal. I believe in balanced budgets, markets, and deregulation. Look at my record in Vermont." He was scathing in his indictment of the "hyper-enthusiasm for taxes" among Democrats in Washington.

Except for the deregulation, which I could support in some instances, I also support balanced budgets, a thriving market, and fair taxes. I'm also not a supporter of "tax and spend" liberal Democrats.

[blm]

123. tax and spend liberal dems is a GOP meme and you are spreading it.

Just like Dean is. Liberals don't set out to tax and spend and bust budgets.

[caledesi]

129. Tax and Spend Libruls? How about Red-Ink Republicans...

and this isn't a meme; it's fact. Look at your history.

[blm]

145. huh? Larkspur is the one who said "tax and spend liberals"

with derision. I am correcting her for spreading a GOP meme against Democrats.

[caledesi]

222. Sorry blm! nt

[TLM]

190. As ususal BLM leaves out the fact...

That Dean has, after seeing the abuses of Enron and World Com, backed off the idea of deregulation in some areas because the risk of abuse just outweighed the benefits. And as recent Clark attacks on Dean reflect, Dean wants to re-regulate these industries.

But they love Dean for his states rights positions, and his balanced budget positions. THere is nothing conservative or right wing about balanced budgets.

[janx]

221. You're right about that, TLM.

(The balanced budget.) Conservatives haven't cared about that for almost 35 years. And now it's completely out of control.

[Hep]

104. The friend of my enemy is my enemy?

Sorry, I don't read anything into what I read from bad sources, whether its good or bad. Frankly I don't see the point. And I never understand why anyone DOES take stock in it.

[blm]

121. Then maybe Dean should call his pal, Moore and ask for a retraction.

Or does Moore have the meeting on tape?

[Hep]

199. I'd love a transcript

It's not like you're going to look for it. You have the information you want, no need to look for context.

[dsc]

144. Why to you keep posting articles

after they are shown to have lies in them? They lie about Dean and vouchers. The lie about Dean's property tax program. They lie about several other things. I have repeatedly pointed this out. Just why do you post what Al Franked would call the lies of lying liars?

[blm]

146. Because Dean's own words on deregulation are used.

And if they weren't Dean's own words then Dean should ask his pal, Moore for a retraction.

Moore also states that his CATO partners were ecstatic with Dean's performance there. That doesn't sound like something any Democrat should be comfortable with.

[PVnRT]

147. Because that's all she can find

And since Kerry's campaign is very quickly going into the tank, they are getting desperate.

[louis-t]

83. I don't know if I can totally

disagree that Libertarians are not extreme right wing. They do have some pretty radical ideas, but there are Libertarians who lean left also. I know people who consider themselves Libertarian, yet agree strongly and loudly with the neo-con agenda and absolutely LOVE Bush.
Talk about inner struggle!

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

150. yes, libertarians are far right wing

In the United States, libertarians are the 100% lassaiz-faire capitalists, right wing Ayn Randians. Everywhere else in the world, libertarians are considered small government socialists. The CATO institute is socially liberal, but far right wing on the economy.

[janx]

28. Will you vote for Dean if he gets the nomination?

Because he's going to get the nomination.

[blm]

39. He shouldn't. He's going to bring down the Dem party.

.

[Hep]

45. The sky is falling!

We don't have very far to fall.

[caledesi]

130. Really BLM? He is probably going to "clean house" and I hope he

makes sure he sends all those pink tutus to Goodwill!

edit: typoos (LOL)

[blm]

140. You do know he never changed personnel in Vermont?

He left most of the Republican governor's staff and appointees in place and pissed off the Democrats there.

Why do you believe that all of a sudden, this year, Dean has magically transformed into a fighting populist with a reform agenda when he was never one when he governed and didn't start running as one until the antiwar movement grew?

[janx]

158. Spider Monkey

"Do know where the spider monkey lives? It lives in South America. The spider monkey lives in the high up canopy where it’s safe. The rain forest is a good place because it has lots of trees to climb. This animal lives where trees, berries, bananas and leaves grow.

Can you guess what it eats? The spider monkey has a diet that is very healthy! Its wild fruit, leaves, spiders, insects but manly fruit. It gets its food by picking them from bushes under leaves also bark.

Can you guess its living habits? It swings from tree to tree with its long arms and legs. It lives in groups up to 20 to 45.Its daily life is eating and swing from tree to tree. Their enemies are jaguars, piranha and men. They protect themselves by going high up into the canopy. This animal is endangered. Many spider monkeys have been shot for food and fur that they are absent from there of their former rang. I think people need to stop shooting them for food and fur. I would like to be a spider monkey!"

http://www.havasu.k12.az.us/starline/akeller/spider.html

[caledesi]

223. I honestly cannot answer that to your satisfaction. All I know

is from what I see and hear, I really like Dean. It's that simple.

[meegbear]

22. Wait a minute ...

are you saying that if you don't support Dean, you're not a Democrat?

[Hep]

25. Wait ten minutes

Explain how you read that into his post.

[janx]

26. The right-wing sees that it's powerful, but they still don't

understand what it is. That's how very disconnected they are, and that's why I think Dean will win and win well.

[Hep]

29. No one knows the graqssroots better than the right wing.

Don't buy into the idea that they don't get it. They've mastered it.

[janx]

35. Hep, that's undeniable, BUT

I can't help but feel that they attracted their grassroots in a fashion different from what's going on now in the Dean campaign. That may sound naive; I assure you it's not.

They did it using fear and division--and religion.

[Hep]

47. I think you're right

They're more lke the mafia, and we're morelike Braveheart! I'll grant you that. But I was MOVED when the NRA got some millions of letters sent to the FCC in a very shortperiod of time during that fiasco several months back. Their phone tree is EXTENSIVE!

[janx]

91. So is ours. And it will surpass theirs.

Too many people love their country and want to restore it.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mel]

13. nobody said that

and Cleland didn't outright Lie and say Dean advocated assasination of the pResident
Big difference in what Cleland and a so called journalist is allowed to print you've missed the point.

.............Course, you did get your jab in at Dean, right? :eyes:

[Hep]

15. Max Cleland is trying to mimic

the tactic that got him thrown out of office. He doesn't know that the tactic won't work for him.

Is he a right winger? No. An asshole? I didn't think so until about a week ago.

[joefree1]

18. Chickenhawk Chickenshit

The Neo-cons have the cowards lobby all sewn up.

[MercutioATC]

78. Considering Cleland was accused of not being patriotic because he didn't

vote for the Patriot Act, which went a long way toward costing him the election (yeah, losing multiple limbs in war is irrelavent), I'm surprised he's backing Kerry, who obviously chose to vote FOR the Patriot Act.

Cleland, while I don't agree with him on the Dean issue, has more political courage than MOST of the Dem candidates.

[last_texas_dem]

96. Technically

I believe it was his lack of support for the Repugs' anti-union version of the Department of "Homeland Security" that caused slimy Saxby Chambliss to attack Cleland as "unpatriotic." Russ Feingold of Wisconsin was, I believe, the only Democrat (the only Senator, for that matter) to actually vote against the Patriot Act.

While Cleland may be engaging in a little dirty politics here to benefit his preferred candidate, I think both Deanies and anti-Deanies have shown themselves to be more than proficient in such behavior.

FWIW, I'd love to see Cleland run for the seat Zell "Benedict" Miller (R-GA) will be vacating come 2005.

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mitchum]

156. that was a sniveling and piss ant thing to say

Did you post that from work? Man, NC is lenient.

[Hep]

161. Buy a sense of humor!

Lots of uptight people. Damn. Cleland would have laughed.

[MercutioATC]

171. Tasteless, yes, but much humor is...

I'll admit that it got a grin out of me, which I immediately felt bad for...

I'm still trying to figure out what the exact reason for deletion was...perhaps Hep has entered new territory here...


:eyes:

[janx]

175. My ex-husband was an amputee who used to make jokes

like that all the time...stuff about putting "his best foot forward," swimming in circles, etc.

[Hep]

178. LOL

I've noticed that some folks here just have hate in their heart. They can't get past their own insecurities. It's OK. If the person who alerted it were a person I agree with on certain issues, I don't think it ever would have been alerted. SOme people just go after that alert button so much it makes you wonder about their stance on the 1st amendment.

[janx]

182. Yep. I did a spoof on a politician here in this forum and

the person who hit the alert button said she did so because she found it "inappropriate."

It mentioned a wife-beater mentality, and she found that "inappropriate" because she was a social worker.

[Hep]

184. Damn, and I like to wear wife beater shirts

sometimes. I guess I'm just not cut out for this board.

[janx]

185. ssshhhh! You can't say that!

!

[Hep]

176. It's because I'm not wel lliked by some

and those people will alert me every time. No big deal. The thing is, I apologized IN THE THREAD if it was offensive. And I admitted it was tasteless.

But dammit, it was RIGHT THERE. The door was open. What was I supposed to do? IU did everything I could to take the edge off of it. I admitted to liking Cleland and hoping he DOES campaign for Miller's seat. But I guess that one line was just too much.

[MercutioATC]

180. I'm completely serious. I see no prohibition regarding amputee jokes.

Is seems that whomever deleted the thread....

....c'mon how can I resist...

...doesn't have a leg to stand on.


:spank:

I know, I'm bad...we have to be serious about these things at all times.

[Hep]

181. OMG

[NewYorkerfromMass]

187. Let's make fun of Howard Dean because he's short then

hey why not?

[janx]

189. OK. I'll start. But wait. How short is he?

?

I didn't think he was short. Is he a midget and I don't know it? Is he toddler-sized?

[Hep]

192. Go for it!

The thing about having a sense of humor is that it makes kneejerk reactions fun to respond to!

Dean is short, so why not make a joke about THAT? I mean, I can't THINK of one, but I should voice my support for one RIGHT NOW!

[Hep]

193. John Kerry walks into a bar

The bartender says, "Why the long face?"


Damn. Not very good.

[mitchum]

207. As a show of good faith, I'll give you this one...

My spouse is a Kerry volunteer and the campaign said that they were gonna send her a photograph. So I asked her, "What will that be, an 8 X 14?" True-life yuk yuks from Captain Humorless.

[Hep]

218. OK I take it back!

You are no longer Captain Humorless. That was funny!

[MercutioATC]

224. Dean's 5'9"...I'm 5'8", so I don't consider him particularly short.

But go for it...

[janx]

188. Man, I love holiday time. I hope this place continues to

keep up the good spirit.

Maybe we could all have some nogs later.

[janx]

191. It WAS right there...

.

[mitchum]

179. Maybe because it could have possibly been funny...

if Cleland had made the joke. And I don't think the poster would have made it if Cleland was endorsing the sainted good doctor. I didn't alert on it (I believe in letting idiocies stand)

[Hep]

183. Oh yeah I would have.

Because it wasn't about any candidate.

I would have made the joke if Stephen Hawking were to declare a bid for office. Or Chris Reeve.

But whatever, Captain Humorless. It's no secret you don't like me. Youre repetitive notifications of such are much appreciated.

[mitchum]

198. Man, you may be a very nice guy (I don't know you)...

I just don't care for your candidate (just as you don't care for mine)
Life is too short.
peace

[Hep]

200. You mean for a sniveling pissant

eom

[mitchum]

204. Uh, I said that the statement was "a sniveling pissant thing to say"...

not that you were "a sniveling pissant". There is a difference. As surprising as it may be, I became adept at nuance long before John Kerry entered my life.

[Hep]

205. That was a * thing to say

means that the person saying it is what? Nah, you didn't mean to insult.

[bushisanidiot]

102. You Can Hardly Compare Bush's AWOL & Deserter Status to

Dean's being turned down at the draft physical and issued a 1Y deferrment. Bush boy ran running and screaming after his daddy got him in a cushy national guard job flying planes that would never see combat. Dean's 1Y would have ensured he report for duty had the military deemed it necessary.

Bush boy's a deserter/traitor. Dean showed up when called. No comparison.

What a WEAK "president".

[janx]

107. That happened to a lot of guys back then--the 1Y, that is.

It happened to my brother (flat feet), and it happened to my husband (asthma).

People forget that when there's a full-blown draft going on, the military has one heck of a lot of people from which to choose.

[caledesi]

134. Exactly biai. This is fabricated crap! Bush* went AWOL! nt

[TLM]

186. If you attack a democrat for not going to vietnam.....

You are using a right winger attack on other dems. And yes, that's a repuke thing to do.

And it is even worse when the attack is made on someone like Dean who had a perfectly valid medical deferment.

I'm really disappointed by these dems who are trying to out hawk the right wingers and are attacking dems for not being hawks, so they can try to help the republicans prop up this idea that patriotism is somehow contingent on serving in Vietnam.

[blm]

8. Not yet. Frank Luntz hasn't given the signal yet.

These are just a few shots for the amusement of the wingnuts. The full assault will be when Rove is secure that Dean will be the nominee. Watch Luntz. He'll let you know, and then it will be for full public consumption.

[janx]

14. Luntz is a putz, a schoolboy.

No, the assault has already begun, and soon it will be in full swing. Just watch.

[Hep]

20. Are you ready to fight fo whoever wins the nomination?

Have your ongoing attacks on Dean been a ploy for you to learn arguments in his defense? Will you be able to make the transition from Dean attacker to Dean defender if he wins?

[blm]

33. Dean has already lost in the general.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is in Lala land (as Dean so liked to say about progressive Dems.)

I'm fighting by WARNING people that if you don't scrutinize Dean and ALL his lies and inconsistencies TODAY, then watch in agony as they are repeated before your eyes on every channel, 40 times a day, 24/7 for weeks and months until Nov. 2.

There is a reason that many in the DNC don't want Dean and it has to do with internal polls that show him doing the worst against Bush and bringing down all the tickets in competitive districts. And that is BEFORE he's been confronted with an ad campaign against him highlighting all his deficiencies. And BEFORE the media does its part to promote Bush as a successful president.

[janx]

38. I can't disagree more with you, so I'll put it another way:

Will you vote for Dean should he win the nomination?

[blm]

42. Disagree with me by refuting the post.

.

[Hep]

51. There's nothing to refute

but speculation and opinion. You don't have a solid piece of information in there. Just striking evidence that your dislike for Dean is more important than your desire to get bush out of office.

So go, your vote is worthless to me. Go vote green.

[blm]

74. You can't. You know Dean has inconsistencies and lies on record.

AWB, Yucca Mt., Iraq, deregulation, global free trade.

[w4rma]

81. You have nothing positive to say about any Democrat, blm. (n/t)

[blm]

86. Wrong. I love alot of them AND the Dem Party.

I don't TRUST Dean. I don't trust any politician who changes positions in an election year and runs differently than the way he governed. That's not trustworthy in my book. It satisfies YOU. Not me.

[Hep]

108. But you like Kucinich

Who did just that. Shame you can't be consistent in your ridiculing others for not being consistent.

[blm]

111. Dennis switched BEFORE he ran.

And I love Kucinich BECAUSE he is an honest man, who when he does switch does so credibly. He's NOT a calculating opportunist who changes with wherever he sees the votes.

[Hep]

116. Whatev!

Dean's policies haven't changed since he ran.

[TLM]

197. But you like Kerry who was a pro war hawk

until he saw it hurting his run for president, so he switched around to being against the war he voted for.

[AWD]

89. Hilarious!

The view on my screen....

Ignored
-Ignored
--Ignored
---Ignored
----"You have nothing positive to say about any Democrat, blm"

Ah, the wonders of blocking out the moronic statements. Thank you, ignore button!!!!!

[mitchum]

211. your loss, AWD

[Hep]

106. Here we go again

Those one word arguments. You call them points, but they're not.

You don't have a specific gripe in you. You don't have an ounce of detail in your arguments. You can't even articulate what your issue is. Yet you come out and harangue people who don't have responses, as if there's anything to respond to.

[janx]

57. This is not a candidate-bashing thread.

I have no desire to get into that sort of thing. Sorry.

[janx]

41. The general hasn't been held yet. Whoops, your argument

is therefore moot.

[Hep]

50. That's funny

Because I've been sitting here for months defending Kucinich's run, and Sharpton's run, becaus it's never over. Yet here you are saying we've already lost. That's a great attitude. So I'll take your answer to be a BIG NO. And I'll tell you that your attitude is WEAK.

We don't need you in the D party. Go vote Green, please.

[retyred]

84. Your preaching to the choir

Most deans supporters know all this, at this point it doesn't matter, their angry and dean feeds that anger, and when dean loses in the general should he get the nomination, they can continue to be angry and blame it on anything and everything, everyone and anyone except dean.

When gore lost in 2000, most all blamed everyone but gore, gore beat gore, by not being able to carry enough weight he beat himself, by not being able to counter the right wing attacks, he beat himself, by not focusing on the prize, he beat himself, by not haveing a better message, he beat himself.

All dean has is anger and it's just not enough, it's not enough to reach main stream dems, and it's certainly not enough to reach across the fence to bring in the added votes to beat bush. The anger vote may offset the main stream vote that dean will lose, but without both it's a loss, as the article demonstrated by the shout from the rear: the message was lost on the angry.

deans message now is the exact opposite of what his past record and statements have been, his flip-flops from then to now might be enough in itself to take him down, add what Rove will throw just to be sure will cinch it, dean will lose, he couldn't defend himself against what Kerry and Gebhardt threw at him last night, all he could do was evade the question and deny it even though the facts were there.

I don't want another 4 years of bush but with dean as the nominee, that's exactly what we'll have, with dean as the nominee it will be a repeat of what James Carville said about bush vs gore....the people didn't vote for the lesser of two evils when they voted for bush, they voted for the evil of the two lessers!

If dean does (?) get the nomination and loses, DU will not be a fun place to be, so I'll say it now: "I TOLD YOU SO" dean cannot beat bush!


retyred in fla
“good night paul, wherever you are”
read the book

[PVnRT]

92. Gore lost in 2000?

You have very conveniently ignored the shenanigans in Florida, then.

Does it occur to you, or any of the other knee-jerk Dean haters out there, that maybe he has changed his mind on some things? Isn't that the whole point of political discourse? Or are we just supposed to scream and yell like howler monkeys throwing their shit around?

[janx]

95. Scream and throw shit like howler monkeys.

!

That's how we win elections, yep.

[Julien Sorel]

114. ROFL

Too funny.

[janx]

118. I just wanted to repeat it because yes, it was hilarious.

It was an great analogy.

[retyred]

135. Nice Dodge!

I used the point how gore beat himself by not being a better candidate and his supporters blaming everyone else for his loss (and yes, he lost, winning in principle only is not a win) to show how dean supportes will blame everyone else for dean's loss except dean when the bush team trashes dean to death.

I never said dean wasn't allowed to change his mind, I said Rove will use deans flip-flops against him and the shear numbers alone could sink dean, add to it the lies and dean will lose.



retyred in fla
“good night paul, wherever you are”
read the book

[PVnRT]

148. Gee, sounds to me like you almost WANT Bush to win

Just you can be smug and arrogant come Inauguration Day 2005.

[TLM]

203. Did you even read what you just wrote?

"When gore lost in 2000, most all blamed everyone but gore, gore beat gore, by not being able to carry enough weight he beat himself, by not being able to counter the right wing attacks, he beat himself, by not focusing on the prize, he beat himself, by not haveing a better message, he beat himself."


You just listed the reasons Dean will win...

Dean is able to counter the right wing attacks.

Dean is focusing on the prize.

Dean does have a better message.


"All dean has is anger and it's just not enough, it's not enough to reach main stream dems, and it's certainly not enough to reach across the fence to bring in the added votes to beat bush."

That's just dishonest to claim all Dean has is anger... because there is no way you can be so ignorant of the things Dean has said and the hope he has given so many that we can do better in DC.

Are his ideas on healthcare angry, how about his ideas on funding special education, and his positions on early child care, what about his positions on free trade, unions, and the environment... are those just anger too?

If you are going to attack Dean, at least try to come up with something more than mouthing the repuke memes.

[PVnRT]

90. Dean has already lost?

Really? The general election already happened? Did I black out again? :eyes:

[Scott Lee]

98. I'm sure he has in your Wonderland neighborhood

But here on Earth, the general election hasn't occurred yet. I'm so sorry to bring such disheartening news.

[TLM]

195. BLM, pull your head out of the sand...

The republicans are going to attack ANY DEM that gets the nomination with exactly the same kind of crap. If you think that Dean is the only one they'll attack, you're the one living in la la land.

No matter who we nominate, they'll attack with every bit of dirt they can scrape off the bottom of the barrel. Kerry would be attacked as well. However unlike Kerry, Dean is actualy capable of mounting an effective defense, whereas Kerry is just a repeat of Gore's campaign.

Dean has the quick response and the fundraising foundation to answer back. Bush attacked the dems, and Dean put the call out and raised in only a few days...



Kerry can't even hope to match that. So your argument that we shouldn't vote for Dean because he'll be attacked, is just stupid. They'll ALL be attacked, and Dean is the only one who has shown he can fight back quickly and effectivly.

Now, are you going to vote for Dean when he gets the nomination?

[snooper2]

12. What a rag..

Townhall.com is the worst...

[janx]

17. One of the worst. But it's also a good barometer.

I find it amusing that the far-right has come up with nothing better than the thug tactics they employed during the Clinton years.

American Spectator redux...and redux...and...

[drfemoe]

16. "That's hurtful hate speech" ..

"I don't care if your wife IS a covert CIA mole." ...

A pointed mind in pointless.

[madfloridian]

19. Who else did not serve in Vietnam, and why don't you attack them?

:shrug:

[joefree1]

30. All the names are here

www.nhgazette.com/chickenhawks.html

[madfloridian]

32. Which of our democratic candidates, I mean.

:shrug:

[BrokenSegue]

23. Disgusting.

[Guaranteed]

24. The sides are divided.

Everyone on our side knows that's bullshit. Everyone on their side thinks it's true.

This country is extremely polarized by Bush, and the determining factors in the election will be mobilization and voter turn-out. We ought to concentrate on getting people registered and dragging them to the voting booths.

[janx]

48. That's so true! We live in such divided and judgmental times!

It's not the country I grew up in, and I want the country I grew up in back. Most of us do.

[Classical_Liberal]

34. Lowrey probably made it up

Repukes always project their hate onto others. Yesterday townhall published a column by Coulter where she said she was glad Dean's brother died because he was a traitor. They are loathsome.

[janx]

44. Yes, I heard about that. The scum at the bottom of the barrel,

that one was.

They're in full attack. I think they know they can't beat him.

[FrenchieCat]

36. What right wing attacks?

MSnbc pundits David Schuster and Craig Crawford have announced Howard Dean as the winner of last night's debate. Clark was not mentioned, nor were any of his debate soundbytes played. Why? because Clark is their worst nightmare.

I think that you are mistaken in your assessement that Dean is a threat to Bush. Bush's money and organization (which includes major media)will not be threatened by Dean. It is clear that Howard Dean is the choice of the Republican Party.

You can all fool yourselves if that will make you feel better. The bottomline is that Dean has been proclaimed the winner by the Cable channels, and he is being shoved into Democratic American's face and being given plenty of Ink. Media Whores know full well that name recognition is the key to uninformed voters voting for a particular candidate. In fact, they are betting on it. They enjoy the power.

Dean will be a mediocre candidate at best in the eyes of the majority of the electorate during the 2004 General Election (if we are blind enough to nominate him). And based on all that Dean has to offer when pitted against George Bush, he will lose badly. There is a reason Why he does worst in most polls against Bush.

Bottomline is that what is omitted by major media about Dean; the fact that he has no Foreign policy experience and that he ran a state with a smaller population than San Francisco (Pop. 750,000+ and more diverse than Vermont), that he has a DOA tax plan to offer....those issues are NOT being discussed.

Unfortunately for this party and ardent Dean supporters, who cannot see the forest for the trees, Dean has been purposely propelled as "Frontrunner" in order to ensure Bush election in 2004. The goal it appears has been transformed from "Bush out in '04 at any cost" to "Elect Dean at any cost"......the two are not the same, as you shall see. Just keep selling Howard Dean....and see if that's what will be bought come the election.

Turn up your nose at this post (and I would not be surprised if you did)...but I will tell you that on 9/11/04 When BUSH gives his grand speech to the REPUBLICAN NATIONAL CONVENTION in NEW YORK CITY....he will thank the lord that he was sent Howard Dean.

I for one have only one goal in 2004. TO BEAT GEORGE BUSH.

Everything else is BULL!

[janx]

54. This is not a Clark-bashing thread, and I REFUSE

to be sucked into any candidate-bashing thread. I did not start the thread with that in mind, and I will not participate in it. Sorry.

I admire General Clark greatly. That's not what this thread is about.

[Hep]

56. Some can't say something nice about their guy without bashing

It's OK. AT least we know who they are.

[janx]

58. Thanks, Hep. I don't get into those threads.

They bring down DU and bring out the worst in everyone.

[Hep]

60. I wish I could say the same

I get involved in them far too often. Not the bashing. Just the adamant defense, as if these critics deserve a response. Nowadays I just show them one post that I want them to refute, and they all go running. You might like this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=753339&mesg_id=754019&page=

[janx]

97. Well, Clinton spoke well when he said that Democrats fall

in love with their candidates.

I just don't get into the bashing. It's hard not to get into a defensive posture, but that only prolongs the mud slinging. And also, I don't have time.

I like the example you linked though. It was funny.

[Schmendrick54]

137. An example of a right-wing attack, since you asked

Hello Frenchie.

The Townhall article linked to in the original post sure looks like a right-wing attack to me. Another one that comes to mind is the RNC ad in Iowa that suggests "some are attacking the President because he has attacked terrorists." Of course, that attack was on all of the Democrats who have been critical of Bush's bungling in Iraq, which is basically all of the candidates (some more than others).

I think your real point might be to claim that Dean is getting less attacks from the right-wing because they view him as an easier candidate to defeat. To support his you mention the debate assessment which seems to favor Dean. My own opinion is that Clark had the best performance at the debate (I thought Clark's comment that he (Clark) is attacking Bush because he (Bush) is NOT attacking terrorists was superb -- by far the best remark of the evening.) But I believe the pundits response is better explained as just a case of if the frontrunner doesn't commit a major gaffe, he wins.

I share with you one common and overriding goal; send Bush back to Crawford. If I see evidence that Wesley Clarke has a better chance to accomplish that goal, I assure you I will start supporting his candidacy with blazing speed. But I have not been convinced that Dean is the weak candidate that some (such as Karl Rove) have made him out to be. And NO, I am not trying to associate you in any way with Rove -- I believe you sincerely want to beat Bush, as do I. But it is true that Rove has publicly stated that Dean would be easy to beat. I just do not believe him.

My experience has been that many of the people who I meet at Dean campaign events are people who describe themselves as moderates or independents. Some even (sheepishly) admit to having voted for Bush. I have met a few who say they could not vote for Clark (but very few). This enthusiastic support from a broad political spectrum is why I believe Dean has the best chance to win, which is supported by polling data and fundraising. I do have some concern that Dean is slightly behind some others in head-to-head poliing at this time, but I believe this is mainly due to the fact that even though he is in some sense the frontrunner, he has less name recognition than some others (that small satate governor factor). If Howard dean continues to commend the tremendous support (in donations and volunteers) that he has thus far, I don't see improving his name recognition as a problem. And so far, people who learn who he is, seem to like him (according to polls I've seen). Of course, it is still early. I guess that's why we have primaries.

I do not think I am being blind, or failing to see the forest for the trees, or fooling myself, but perhaps I am. I am unlikely to be convinced to change my mind, however, based solely on your assertions that I am blind or fooling myself.

When you say that the fact that Dean comes from a tiny state and his tax plan is DOA is "not being discussed", it seems to me that you are undermining your own credibility. It seems to me that I have seen those topics discussed repeatedly.

As I said earlier, I think Gen. Clark did a great job in the debate, and I would suggest that trumpeting that point along with other positive aspects of his candidacy would have a much better chance of convincing me and others to change sides and support your candidate.

Best Regards,
Schemndrick

[Julien Sorel]

46. Sorry, this isn't the full out assault.

This is just the scouts. If the full-out assault comes people will wonder if Dean belongs in a straight jacket or just needs stronger medication.

200 million dollars, buying ad time with pictures of an angry Dean, videos of an angry Dean, quotations from an angry Dean, pictures of angry Dean rallies, videos of angry Dean rallies, quotations from angry Dean supporters, all against a backdrop of an economy that looks like it's going to be on the upswing.

I'll leave it to you to do the electoral math.

[Hep]

52. Bring it

We don't need you either. If Dean wins, please change your affiliation.

[Julien Sorel]

110. My, what an angry sounding post.

And who are you to decide what Democrats do and do not need?

You didn't even try to address the issue at hand, by the way.
:shrug:

[Hep]

117. 1.2.3.

1. No issue at hand

2. I speak my opinion.

3. Indifference is not anger.

Bye now.

[Julien Sorel]

122. Gee, 'Bring it' and asking someone to leave a political

party hardly seems indifferent. But suit yourself.

[AP]

63. I agree. This story pushes Republicans to the right and Democrats to the..

..left. If it were a full on assault, it'd be like the attacks on Gore and Clinton, which make the left quesiton whether they should be supporting the guy.

Furthermore, when the assualt starts on Dean, I'll be thinking, 'join the club. It's about time they started treating him like all the other candidates.'

[janx]

133. I didn't say the assault wouldn't escalate...

I said it has begun and that it would continue. No doubt it will.

You certainly have a point though.

[caledesi]

49. All that little weasel did what take every aspect of Dean and

make up something negative about it, right down to the "rolled-up sleeves." This is trash.

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TLM]

62. Yeah those folks have been mouthing the repuke talking points to bash Dean

for weeks now.

[drfemoe]

dupe delete

n/t

[drfemoe]

68. and this bunch

seems to forget that *u*h wasn't even ELECTED in 2000!!!

We are supposed to be sooo scared that Dean will bring the party down and lose the election 3 years after an unelected resident has started war, trashed the economy, disgraced our national respect, paid off all his buddies, allowed the worst terrorist event in history in our homeland, exposed a CIA operative, blocked investigations into 9/11, passed every POS law he ever lusted for, etc etc etc etc ...

"Angry" Howard Dean is the LEAST of the dems problems.

[blm]

72. We don't TRUST Dean. Can't you get it through your heads?

He's not running as he governed and you expect us to fall in line with all of YOU who believe him?

Sorry, we have PRINCIPLES and the wherewithal to scrutinize a man's record and compare it to his current rhetoric. Where they don't add up we say so. YOU characterize it as something else for your own narrow interests and political gains.

[Larkspur]

87. I have principles and trust Dean

I'm a Democrat like Dean, a Democrat of the 21st century, not the 1940's, like some "tax and spend" liberal Democrats on this board. I want balanced budgets, fair taxation, and my civil rights.

Kerry is toast, blm. His attacks on Dean only make Dean look more presidential, and his campaign organization is in the final throws of a "graveyard" spiral.

[Scott Lee]

100. I see, so anyone who supports Dean "has no principles", right?

Giggles. This is why the old school Dem party liners are becoming the biggest political laughing stock out there. The pious posturing is unbelievable.

Have fun wearing sack cloth and ashes when Dean wins the nomination.

[blm]

124. Is Dean campaigning as he governed?

.

[Scott Lee]

138. I wouldn't trust anyone who couldn't learn

and then apply those lessons whether they are "governing" or not. If Dean would govern as President while ignoring things he's learned since governor of Vermont, he'd never get my vote.

See, unlike you conservatives, I admire and support a person who can learn and change as needed.

[TLM]

208. Dean governed as a moderate demcorat

and he is campaigning as a moderate democrat, so yes.


Dean has served the most liberal state in the f-ing country, where he was so awful and conservative the liberals re-elected him a record 5 times in a row.


You accuse Dean of flip floping, however it is not a flip flop to change positions over a period of years based on changing circumstances and new developments. Half your accusations are based on BS spin on half a senetece quoted out of context, and the other half are based on positions that changed because the situation changed. Like Dean supporting a balanced budget amendment, BEFORE Clinton was able to accomplish the balanced budget without one. Or Dean supporting deregulation BEFORE seeing the abuse of deregulation from Enron and worlcom. Then you act like the fact Dean now says we do not need a BBA and deregulation is too great a risk, you call that flip floping. I call it LEARNING from experience.

And tell me does Kerry was for the war, and now he is against the war... do you consider that a flip flop?

[Hep]

109. You may or may not have principles

that remains to be seen based on your behavior here. What you don't have is WORDS. Words to describe your problems with Dean. Words to explain YOUR stance and how it differs. You never have WORDS.

That's why you have no credibility. It's because you don't play by the rules. The rules say you have to argue a point. Cuba is not a point. AWB is not a point. Until people provide arguments, they're just bashers.

[blm]

127. I have posted many times.

I have never posted about Cuba.

Dean switched from being against the federal AWB as governor to being for it this year.

He switched from supporting Bush on Yucca Mt. to saying the science needs to be studied.

He switched from being a governor who pushed for deregulation, including electricity to a campaigner who wants to seek "re-regulation."

He went from a global free trader as governor to a fair trader.

I don't trust him. His past record and his current rhetoric don't match.

[Schmendrick54]

136. I think Governor Dean IS campaigning as he has governed.

Hello blm.

In my opinion, the answer to your question (in post 124) is: Yes, Dean is campaigning as he governed. Of course, your opinion may vary.

To address some of the points you raise:

1. AWB - I think this is probably your strongest point. It appears that in 1992, Dr. Dean did tell the NRA that he was against an Assault Weapons Ban, but has subsequently indicated that he was specifically referring to a State level ban. He has stated that he supports the Federal AWB which was passed in 1994, but believes that states should decide whether or not they need additional controls. This seems to me like a slight change from his original position, nd if you are violently against the AWB (which I doubt) you may find this to be a significant issue. To me it seems like a rational attempt to take a careful position which does not unnecessarily antagonize a block of voters who would otherwise support you.

2. Yucca Mountain: I discussed this at some length on another thread, which is here (if I can get this link thingy correct) <http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=732134>

In a nutshell, I think as Governor, Howard Dean supported a plan to move nuclear waste from a relatively unsafe location in Vermont and place it in a much safer location in Nevade. (Here safer means the total risk is reduced, even though not every individual's risk is reduced.) Later, as Presidential candidate Howard Dean has suggested that concerns about the safety at the proposed storage facility are worth a second look. If the science suggests there is a better way to store this stuff (better = safer) then he will support that. I think in both cases his position is consistent with the principle of using science to make decisions which serve the best interests of his constituents, (not pseudo-scientific handwaving to support a decission which maximizes the benefits to his cronies -- i.e., the Bush model.)

3. energy regulation -- (again snipped from an earlier post) I understand that at some pooint in his governorship, Dr. Dean supported some sort of energy deregulation. Apparently he, like many others thought that this might lead to more competition and better prices for his constituents. After witnessing the results of such failed experiments as demonstrated in the (still illegal despite deregulation) extortion of California's energy consumers he has decided that it was a bad idea. This strikes me as someone learning experience, which I regard as a positive characteristic. It is too bad Dubya refuses to acknowledge that his tax cuts for the wealthy solution for every situation isn't really working.

4. Free Trade versus Fair Trade -- As the Governor of Vermont, Howard Dean supported NAFTA. Since the vast bulk of the foreign trade in Vermont is across the border wtih Canada, which has similar environmental and worker protection laws to our own, this seems like a reasonable approach. As a candidate for President, Howard Dean has observed the problems which NAFTA has created for the nation as a whole, due primarily to the lack of environemntal and worker protection safeguards, so he is now supporting changes to NAFTA to incorporate such safeguards; i.e., Fair Trade. To me this seems like a recognition that the original idea is not working as well as planned and improving it.

5. Although you did not mention it here, it has been suggested also that Howard Dean is NOT very liberal, as evidenced by the comments from the CATO Institute. I think that is a fair statement. I consider myself to be more liberal than Howard Dean on several issues, but in the three times I have heard him in person and all the times I have watched him on television, I have never heard him claim to be liberal (although some take it that way when he uses the "Democratic wing of the Democratic Party" phrase.) I take that to refer not to how liberal he is, but just a statement that he represents all of us who are proud to be Democrats.

That is why I disagree with your assessment of Howard Dean. I certainly respect your opinion, especially since I have found your extensive research on the ties between Bush and the Moonies to be so well done. I guess we will just have to disagree about this topic.

Best Regards,
Schmendrick

[blm]

149. Thankyou...but... ;)

Dean was presented with the science on Yucca Mt. by the environmentalists and Democrats who opposed it. He rejected that science and supported the same science Bush did. He's playin' the audience when he says the science needs to be examined now, since there hasn't been any changes in it from what he rejected just a couple years ago.


And on deregulation, Dean pushed it for years, then only turned about when Cali. turned into a disaster. He was told for years by Democrats that deregulation was wrong and was presented with plenty of research to back up their claims, yet Dean rejected it and pushed for deregulation anyway.
Dean needs a DISASTER before he changes his mind on something so essential to our Democratic values? If Dean had core Democratic values he NEVER would have thought deregulation was a great idea in the first place. His core values seem to be more Libertarian.


Election year conversions....phooey.

But, hello. ;)

[Schmendrick54]

152. Follow-up question.

Hello blm.

I really appreciate your answer. I have two questions/comments.

First, as far as the electricity deregulation, it was my understanding that part of the legislation was intended to make sure that people with renewable energy generators (such as solar panels or wind turbines) could connect to the grid and get credit for excess energy generrated. I could be wrong about this. In any case, if you wish to criticise Dean for beleiving some form of deregulation could be a good thing, that seems like a fair criticism to me. But I still don't see it as a trust issue, unless you mean you can't trust him to always choose the answer which is most "liberal" . If so, then I understand where you are coming from.

As far as the nuclear waste problem, are you saying that the science clearly indicates that the risks associated with the Yucca Mountain plan are clearly greater than some other option (such as doing nothing)? Can you recommend a good website on this topic. (I know I can find several with Google, but I would like to go to one that you believe represents sound science. ) In the meantime, I will go do a little looking on my own.

Regards,
Schemndrick

[Hep]

162. You still don't get it.

Dean switched from being against the federal AWB as governor to being for it this year.

I'm against, but I don't give a rats ass. Do you want to debate the merits (or lack thereof) of the AWB? As governor, he had to look at the AWB as a vermonter. A good enough reason to be against it. Running for president, he has to look at a bigger picture, so he's for it. He SHOULD be changing his mind. He did the RIGHT thing.

But all you can look at is the fact that he differs now. It doesn't matter that there's an explanation. You have to stop with the single word arguments, because they make you look incapable of more.

He switched from supporting Bush on Yucca Mt. to saying the science needs to be studied.

See above. He admits short sightedness, but his admitting it isn't enough for some people.

He switched from being a governor who pushed for deregulation, including electricity to a campaigner who wants to seek "re-regulation."

So? Another big buzz word jumper, eh? We all know that deregulation is EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVIL without any exception. Any time we hear the word "deregulation" we think BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD!

Sorry, it doesn't fly. If regulations don't work, they need to go. And they need to be replaced with regulations that do work.

You don't trust him. BIG surprise. But your real problem is that you hate objectivity. You want someone who kneejerks as much as you do. Anyone who keeps an open mind until all the facts are in is "untrustworthy" to you.

Of course unless they're voting for the IWR.

[farmbo]

126. What's this "We"...Got a mouse in your pocket?

Most people on this board, whether they support Dean, Clark, Kerry, Gep,etc., believe in the fundamental veracity of our nine candidates.

People evolve.

People grow.

Policies change.

But you'll have to look to the other side of the aisle to find politicians who deliberately lie to obtain their political objectives.

[blm]

142. then you missed the Deanies saying Kerry is a "corrupt Washington insider"

Kerry...the one lawmaker who has exposed MORE government corruption than ALL of the candidates put together and more than any lawmaker in modern history.

[drfemoe]

154. this mantra

is simply not supported by the evidence .. and I've seen it, no reason to repost. He is doing NOTHING at this point in his corruption crusade. It has been stated that he is not going to pursue plame-gate unless he gets the nomination .. that's real corruption fighting all right . not.

[janx]

61. That, coupled with the vile liar tactics of Coulter

(and all the rest)tells me that someone has given the signal.

How many weeks until the Iowa caucus? How many weeks until the New Hampshire primary?

[drfemoe]

70. 55 days to Iowa 63 to NH

eom

[janx]

75. Not long. That explains it.

It's going to be good fun hard work.

[caledesi]

59. Why bother writing an article on someone the thugs supposedly

want to run against since "he will be so easy to beat?"

Hmmm, I had to post again, because now I look at this article a little differently. To be writing it shows that the Repugs are scared sh*tless of Dean.

Man, I hope I get my dream team Dean/Clark. Nirvana!

[janx]

64. Yep. The articles are everywhere. I'll post links to more.

Iowa is not far off. New Hampshire is not far behind that. Think about it.

And my dream ticket is the same as yours, caledesi.

[Scott Lee]

101. Because the antiDeans will jump in bed with the GOP if it means..

opposing Howard Dean. That's the ridiculous degree of their hatred.

This is psychology textbook stuff.

[janx]

65. Here's another one from today:

http://www.borowitzreport.com/archive_rpt.asp?rec=744

IN RARE SHOW OF UNITY, DEMOCRATS VOW TO DEFEAT DEAN

Clark: Replace Howard With NATO Troops

Abandoning their quarrelsome, fractious ways, the leading Democratic presidential candidates made a joint appearance in Iowa today in which they unequivocally resolved to defeat former Vermont Governor Howard Dean in 2004.

“Now is the time to put our differences behind us,” Rep. Richard Gephardt (D-MO) told the Davenport audience. “Now is the time to remember why we're all in this race: to defeat Howard Dean!”

Mr. Dean, who was onstage at the time, appeared to turn beet-red with anger as the other candidates voiced their determination to defeat him.

But before he could seize the microphone from Mr. Gephardt, Senator John Kerry (D-Mass) interjected, “Temper, temper, Howard!”
(more at link)

[TLM]

209. LOL!!!! The very definition of great satire...

is when you're not sure if it is real or not.

[caledesi]

66. I just emailed Lowry about his article.

Angry, Angry, Lowry.

Mr Lowry:


Isn't it interesting that you took every aspect of Dean and turn it into a negative (e.g. rolled-up sleeves)?

Dean inspires hope, in case you missed his "little" grassroots-thing. Yeah, he is angry as many of us are when we see the ruin of this country in such a short time.

This article convinces me of one thing. Republicans are scared stiff of Howard Dean. Gee, I thought they WANTED him to be the nominee because "he would be so easy to beat."

If Dean was not a threat, gutless articles like this wouldn't even be written.

BTW, you forgot to mention his mean little mouth

[janx]

76. HA! Good points in that note, caledesi.

And Lowry (god knows why) is one of those rw pundits who gets the talking points.

[janx]

93. Did you actually write "Angry, Angry Lowry" in the letter?!

I hope you did!

[caledesi]

119. Oh yeah, I wrote "Angry, Angry Lowry" Cute huh? nt

[janx]

120. Excellent!

He's going to be angrier in about a year or so...

[caledesi]

128. ROTFLMAO! Good one! Janx nt

[janx]

131. Does Lowry seem like a kid to you? Because he does to me.

I almost feel sorry for him because he's so completely unoriginal.

[caledesi]

170. Yes, he seems so infantile. Not a creative thought in his head. n/t

[janx]

67. And another from today:

http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/11788.htm

DEAN UNDER FIRE IN IOWA FREE-FOR-ALL

November 25, 2003 -- WASHINGTON - Dick Gephardt and John Kerry ganged up on Howard Dean in last night's debate in Iowa, accusing Dean of cutting Medicaid and other services for the needy during Vermont's budget crunch.
"You don't just cut the most vulnerable in our society," Gephardt, a Missouri congressman, told Dean at the MSNBC-sponsored debate.

"As governor, you've got to make tough decisions," Dean added, although he denied anyone in Vermont ever lost Medicaid coverage.

Kerry dodged a question about whether the Massachusetts legislature should quickly enact a law allowing gays to marry, now that the state Supreme Court ruled they should be allowed to do so.

(more at link)

[janx]

69. Here's one from that reputable tome, NewMax, from yesterday:

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2003/11/24/135937.shtml

Kerry Slams Dean as Draft Dodger

In a press release issued by Sen. John Kerry's presidential campaign on Sunday, former Sen. Max Cleland slammed front-runner Howard Dean for dodging the draft during Vietnam - the war that turned Cleland into a triple amputee.

"At a time when young Americans are being killed and wounded by President Bush’s failed policy in Iraq, we don’t need another governor who ran from going to Vietnam and leading our country," Cleland complained.

"We cannot afford to have a leader who weaseled out of going to Vietnam on a medical deferment for a bad back and wound up on the ski slopes of Aspen like Howard Dean," the Georgia Democrat railed.

Cleland, who has endorsed fellow Vietnam veteran Kerry for president, was reacting to Dean's comments to the New York Times on Saturday, where he explained how he went to for his draft physical in 1970 armed with x-rays and a note from his doctor.

(more at link)

[drfemoe]

77. What's really incredible

about the draft bugaboo is the number of threads on DU relating to how to get out of the (upcoming) draft.

So what are these guys saying? Any young person NOW who doesn't want to sacrifice his/her life for another bogus war are what??? .. corrupt? 'unpatriotic'? EXACTLY WHAT? Why is it okay to not want to be drafted NOW and at the same time bash someone who had a legitimate ARMY deferral 30 years ago?

Can we say 'integrity'? They should get some.

[janx]

159. Oh no...everyone should accept the fact that his/her son

should be drafted in another Viet Nam on a moment's notice! Damn!

[janx]

88. See this? HA! The right-wing is getting all fired up...

""We cannot afford to have a leader who weaseled out of going to Vietnam on a medical deferment for a bad back and wound up on the ski slopes of Aspen like Howard Dean," the Georgia Democrat railed."


HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

[trogdor]

112. Yep...I remember the days when HD was still a nobody.

...the VRWC was talking about really stupid shit like how much John Kerry's haircuts cost. Remember?

[janx]

113. Yeah! I remember when there was only one main page

on DeanforAmerica (if it was even called that then).

The whole thing is incredible. It has been great to be able to watch and participate in the process.

And some people I talked to about Dean became interested in him, but they thought he was too good to be true and therefore he didn't have a chance since he made so much sense and was not a Washington insider. The Dean campaign has given cynics some hope again.

[TLM]

210. I don;t know... the last gov who ran from Nam did a pretty damn good job

running our country, Mr. Max "I got my ass kicked out of office" Cleland.

[madfloridian]

79. Janx, why are you quoting so many RW sources today?

:shrug:

[janx]

82. To illustrate the thread title.

.

[janx]

80. Of course, the Moonie Times had to weigh in today as well:

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20031124-103154-6615r.htm

Democrats attack Dean on Medicare, Iraq war

Democratic presidential hopefuls Rep. Richard A. Gephardt and Sen. John Kerry teamed up in yesterday's debate to draw Howard Dean, the apparent front-runner for the party's nomination, back to the pack of nine.
Mr. Dean faced tough charges from all sides, but particularly on Medicare and his comments as Vermont governor in the 1990s that Medicare was growing too quickly.
"Are you going to slow the rate of growth, governor, because that's a cut?" asked Mr. Kerry of Massachusetts.
Mr. Dean, at first, tried to deflect the question, saying, "Well, I'd like to slow the rate of growth of this debate, if I could."
But when pressed by Mr. Kerry, Mr. Dean said, "Medicare is off the table. I'm not going to cut Medicare to balance the budget."

(more at link)

[bushisanidiot]

99. Yeah, [b]Planet DEAN[/b]

sounds good to me!

Rove tries to act like he wants him as the dem candidate, but obviously the repukes are scared sh*tless of him since they are starting their attacks early.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

[janx]

103. They're not really starting early. The Iowa caucuses are

55 days from now.

I think if anything, they held off. They've been pounding all of the candidates for some time, but now they are concentrating on Dean.

We were right when we called Rove's antics reverse psychology tactics.

The one who should be the most dismayed is Bush himself.

[janx]

115. Lowry probably thought the last two words in the second

paragraph--it bristles-- were a stroke of writing genius!

HAHAHAHAHA!! It's typical pop writing garbage, like something from an advertisement on cable TV.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

125. OMG! Planet Dean?

beam me up.....

[janx]

165. He was *trying* very hard to be clever.

.

[caledesi]

132. Take this Rich...and shove it.

[donhakman]

139. DEAN AGAINST SANTA CLAUS

[TLM]

213. LOL! F-ING PRICELESS!

take that santa

[bobbyboucher]

141. Full DU assault against Dean has begun and will continue,

ad nauseum.

:puke:

:boring:

[Scott Lee]

151. Proof positive that we have our own conservatives

[NewYorkerfromMass]

164. I see it as proof there are real Democrats here. eom

[Scott Lee]

196. Not a dimes worth of difference between conservoDem, conservoGOP

That is what is meant by "there's not much difference between the two parties".

I hope to see that changed.

[janx]

155. I guess so! Why? I don't participate in garbage threads.

Why should everything be the same, callous partisan rhetoric?

If the same people who corresponded in internet forums were forced to meet face-to-face, the world would be better.

[HazMat]

143. Oh, don't cry about the same media that made you.

The same media that is handing Dean the nomination is doing so only to set up an easy Bush victory.

Dean supporters don't care that the corporate media hates the other candidates, and I'll have no sympathy when the media takes Dean down -- only sorrow for the real Democrats who will have to suffer under another 4 years of Bush.

[janx]

153. I'm not crying...I'm laughing!

This is not a candidate-bashing thread.

[ima_sinnic]

157. oh, you think the media would "love" some other Dem candidate?

No matter who it is the media and the RW are going to unleash a full frontal assault. Any Democratic candidate will be "taken down" by them--unless like Dean or Clark he or she is able to withstand their blows, to come back for another round. You and the rest of the Dean-bashers have no sense at all of the man's talent and ability to inspire and rally the masses. He says what is on his mind--in & of itself a refreshing change from Bush's fumbling and embarrassing gaffes and empty stock phrases--and the contrast between his complete lack of corporate cronies and hidden agenda and BushCo's fraud, greed and cronyism will become starkly apparent. Dean has not been "chosen" by the RW, he has been chosen by the people and that is very very threatening to them.

[TLM]

214. First off the media is throwing all their crap at Dean...

just as they'd do to any dem frontrunner.


The difference is Dean has half a million people writing letters, faxes, e-mails, and making calls to work that media coverage and to push Dean forward.

You act like the media made Dean... no, remember when the media wasn't paying attention to Dean, and when they tried to label him a fringe leftist with the help of Kerry's DLC? The media didn't make Dean, we did. We made Dean, and the media followed our lead because we made Dean the story. Then we backed it up with record breaking fundraising.

The media didn't raise money for Dean, WE DID!

The other candidates are getting worse coverage, because they do not have what Dean has... an army of supporters pushing the media from the local affiliates all the way up tot he networks. If CLark or Kerry were able to get hundreds of thousands of people to send letters, faxes, e-mails and make calls to the media, their coverage would be better.

Why is this so hard to comprehend for you folks? The corporate media are whores, and whores go where the money is. IF you're the editor of time, and you know you'll sell an extra 300,000 or 400,000 copies if you put Dean on the cover, that's what you're going to do.

We did this... not the media.

[janx]

160. Here is an hallucination from World Nut Daily!:

(They've got it partially right, but miss the point entirely...)

Morris: Clintons replacing Democratic Party
With Howard Dean on rise they fear losing control of purse strings

Fearing Howard Dean is poised to capture the Democratic presidential nomination, Bill and Hillary Clinton are maneuvering to replace the party with a new group called "Americans Coming Together," claims former adviser Dick Morris in a New York Post column.

The group – launched with two $10 million donations from financier George Soros and Peter B. Lewis, chairman of the Progressive Corporation – is one-third of the way toward its goal of raising $94 million to finance a massive campaign against Bush, says Morris, who was President Clinton's chief political strategist during the 1996 campaign.

Hillary Clinton's connection to Americans Coming Together, despite campaign-finance laws, is "paper-thin," said Morris, with Harold Ickes, President Clinton's former deputy chief of staff, working closely with Soros to fund it.

"Ickes is about as independent of Hillary as Bill is," he said. "He is her chief adviser. His photo graces her memoirs. He was her key operative in securing the Senate seat in New York. To pretend that anything he would do is independent of Hillary is like saying that the left hand is independent of the right hand."

(more at link)

[janx]

167. And of course the freepers fall in line in juvenile fashion...

OH! I almost forgot. Things like this can be often found in Dean threads over there:

[NewYorkerfromMass]

177. Why you felt that stuff was worthy of putting up here is beyond me

but I do think "Buzz Lightweight" is pretty funny and close to the truth.

[TLM]

215. So you're saying you agree with freeper trash?

Should that not tell you something about how far to the right you've moved in your hate of Dean... that you're agreeing with freepers?

[janx]

168. This freeper (an adult?!) has taken it upon himself to "INFILTRATE"

a Dean gathering in New Hampshire:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1027855/posts

Here is an excerpt, but there's more at the link:

Berkeley in New Hampshire
Installment One: Howard Dean
DeepFreep at the Howard Dean Rally in Henniker, NH.

I almost made it into the great room when I came to another table with more campaign workers and clip boards. This time they were more emphatic. "We need to get some information!", "No you don't." I said as I kept walking like I owned the
place. They didn't chase me. They didn't get security, but you could tell they weren't happy with this upstart who brushed them off. Well, I came to find out, this was a mission for them. So much so that they stopped and wouldn't allow in 2 professors from the college. Seems these professors didn't like the Gestapo tactics either, they refused to give the information, and then they were asked to leave! These are the liberal elite we're talking about. These professors, teaching at a bastion of liberalism, turned away at the door by "People Powered Howard's Crew"!

I found a seat safely in the middle of the crowd. I felt like the little blue dot in a sea of red. Like Pavlov's dogs somewhere in the back of the crowd someone started clapping and everyone joined in. One problem: The candidate was nowhere to be found. In fact he didn't show up for another half hour! I asked the woman next to me why she was clapping. "Because the Governor is here." I asked her, "Where?"

[CWebster]

169. It matters more that Dean loses than if Clark wins

Thereby replacing Bush whose political star is falling with Clark.

The coup is complete. The Democratic party is now the new Republican party.

[janx]

172. I don't see Clark as a Republican. I see him as an Independent

who recently joined the Democratic fold. There's certainly nothing wrong with that! Many people have done the same, especially recently. This is a GOOD thing.

[CWebster]

173. Not if you want a Democratic party.

it ain't.

How convenient it all is.

[janx]

194. "SOLDIERS ANGER OVER DEAN BROTHER 'MILITARY HONORS'

They're getting down and dirty now. The one thing Dean didn't want was any publicity re his brothers' repatriation ceremony--so Matt Drudge leads the charge.

http://www.drudgereport.com/dean9.htm


XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX WED NOV 26, 2003 10:49:38 ET XXXXX

SOLDIERS ANGER OVER DEAN BROTHER MILITARY HONORS

**Exclusive**

Active duty soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines are upset over being forced take part in a military repatriation ceremony today for remains believed to be those of the none-military brother of presidential candidate Howard Dean, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned.

"His brother will receive full military honors...flag over the coffin and all!" fumes one soldier, who asked not to be named.

Governor Dean is set to visit to the Joint POW/MIA Accounting Command (JPAC) and the repatriation of his brother to Hickam AFB, Hawaii.

The brother's remains were recovered in Laos by a JPAC recovery team this past month. JPAC's mission is to search, recover, and identify remains of US service members who were killed in previous wars.

(More at link)

[Hep]

201. YEah, he wasn't american enough

to deserve a flag over his coffin.

[janx]

202. Pretty low-rent, eh? Drudge will stop at nothing in his quest for

the tabloid. One thing I wonder about though...if Charlie did receive military honors (you never know about Drudge reports), the implication would be that he really was working for the CIA or the military in some respect. Or...maybe not. Maybe since he was a guy who wound up being an American loss in that ill-begotten war, they decided to give him the honor anyway.

In any case, I hope the rest of the media leave that family alone about this.

[Hep]

206. What is the peace corps?

Does that count?

Also, if he wasabducted and killed as a suspected agent, he deserves the flag on his coffin just for being in the line of fire.

[janx]

212. I agree with you there. But full military honors, as I understand it,

are hard to come by.

No, that guy was serving our country in come capacity over there. Whether he and the Aussie guy set out with that in mind is another story, but the full-blown military honors, (if that part is true) points to the fact that he died in the line of duty.

Charlie Dean detested the Viet Nam war and wanted it to end.

_______

By DAVE HART, The Chapel Hill News

CHAPEL HILL -- In 1968, Charlie Dean, one of four brothers of a prominent New England family, supported Richard Nixon in his campaign against Hubert Humphrey because, a colleague said, he believed Nixon's campaign pledge to end the war in Vietnam.

When Nixon failed to live up to that promise immediately, Dean bolted. He was a freshm an at UNC-Chapel Hill that year, and, as the conflict in Vietnam ground on, Dean threw himself into the antiwar movement.

By the 1972 presidential campaign, he had become a fierce devotee of the Democratic candidate, George McGovern. He served as chairman of the local student McGovern campaign, where he led, by all accounts, an energetic and effective effort.

"Charlie was very much against the war, and when Nixon didn't end it, Charlie felt terribly betrayed," said Karen Gray, who served as the financial coordinator of the local McGovern campaign. " Orange County was the only county in the state that went for McGovern, and I think Charlie Dean had a lot to do with that."

More than 30 years after Charlie Dean worked in support of a Democrat running for president with an antiwar message, his older brother, Howard Dean, is himself a Democrat running for president with an antiwar message.

That Charlie Dean met a mysterious, tragic end halfway around the globe just two years after he led the local McGovern campaign only heightens the juxtaposition. His loss was what Newsweek's Howard Fineman called "the defining crisis" of Howard Dean's life, a blow that may have played a role in nudging Howard toward public service in the first place.

"Charlie's death focused his older brother and gave him a sense of mission that he carries with him to this day," Fineman wrote in a July profile.

Passion for politics

Charlie Dean arrived in Chapel Hill as a freshman in 1968. Gerry Cohen, a Raleigh lawyer who lived in Hinton James dormitory with Dean in 1969 and 1970, said that when the voting age was lowered to 18 in 1971, Dean became deeply engaged in electoral politics. When McGovern emerged as the Democratic candidate in 1972, Dean moved to the forefront of the local campaign effort.

"He had an enormous amount of energy," said Cohen, who credited Dean's Orange County voter registration drives for helping elect Cohen to the Chapel Hill Board of Aldermen in 1973. Cohen now is head of bill drafting in the N.C. General Assembly.

Dean was the only paid staffer in the McGovern organization, Gray said. He promptly signed every paycheck back over to the campaign.

In the election of 1972, McGovern fell to Nixon in a landslide, losing 49 of the 50 states. Charlie Dean, Gray said, was devastated. "He was very upset, very disillusioned," she said. "He had applied to go into the Peace Corps and do work with them in Nepal, but he'd deferred his entry to work on the campaign.

"When it was over and he was so disillusioned, he decided to travel for a while before he went to Nepal. I knew it was cold there, so before he left I made him a hand-embroidered scarf to help keep him warm."

She and most of Dean's other friends lost track of him after he left the United States. Evidently he took a freighter to Japan, made his way to Australia and eventually wound up in Laos. In fall 1974, he and an Australian friend were on a boat going up the Mekong River when apparently they were seized by members of the Pathet Lao, the communist government of Laos.

"I completely lost track of him after he left until the summer of 1974," Cohen said. "I was working with the Orange County Board of Elections when this application for an absentee ballot arrived from Charlie. It asked that a ballot be sent to Kat mandu, Nepal. So apparently he was on his way to Nepal when he was captured. We sent the ballot, and I wrote a letter and sent it, too. I never received a reply, and the ballot never came back."

A friend told Cohen that Charlie Dean was missing, and Cohen wrote to the State Department for information. Early in 1975, he said, he received a reply: According to the best information, Charlie Dean and his companion had been executed by the Pathet Lao in late 1974.

____________

[Hep]

219. Incidentally, Gerry Cohen is a big local Dean supporter.

n/t

[janx]

220. That is wonderful to hear. Such a long friendship turns into

support for a presidential run. We need more people and stories like that.

It was so fun when we were tabling once this past summer at Pearl Street Mall in Boulder. A woman who is in politics in the Cambridge, MA area stopped by to express her support for Dean. And then a guy walked up (I think his name was Sam--I can't remember) who said that he used to work for Dean in Vermont when Dean was still governor there. Something to do with education policy. He lives and works in Seattle now. But he was so excited to see the table and the support! He went on and on about it.

[TLM]

216. And isn't their talk he was working for the CIA at the time?

if true, seems to me that's the least he deserves for dying for his country.

[janx]

217. There was some question about his serving the military in

some capacity, yes.