Kerry, Edwards and Lieberman voted for fillibuster on Medicare bill

[genius]

These three were joined by 26 others in voting against cloture. This is the only vote that counted. The Republicans had the votes for passage and so, when the fillibuster failed, it was all over. Then other poele who voted against the fillibuster jumped on the band wagon to vote against the bill and look good. However, it no longer mattered as the Republicans had well over 50 votes. Kerry, Edwards and Lieberman voted to make a difference and not just to look good.

By the way, in the House, Kucinich led the fight against the bill.

Here are the Senate heros who voted against cloture.
Akaka (D-HI)
Bayh (D-IN)
Bingaman (D-NM)
Boxer (D-CA)
Byrd (D-WV)
Cantwell (D-WA)
Chafee (R-RI)
Clinton (D-NY)
Dodd (D-CT)
Durbin (D-IL)
Edwards (D-NC)
Feingold (D-WI)
Graham (D-FL)
Hagel (R-NE)
Harkin (D-IA)
Hollings (D-SC)
Inouye (D-HI)
Kennedy (D-MA)
Kerry (D-MA)
Lautenberg (D-NJ)
Leahy (D-VT)
Levin (D-MI)
Lieberman (D-CT)
McCain (R-AZ)
Reed (D-RI)
Rockefeller (D-WV)
Sarbanes (D-MD)
Schumer (D-NY)
Stabenow (D-MI)

[genius]

1. By the way, I'm not voting for Kerry, Lieberman or Edwards

but I've seen the Dean forces at work trying to mislead everyone into thinking these guys did something wrong here when they were among the heros on this issue. I wish the Dean people would try to be less misleading and run an honest campaign.

[Hep]

20. I AM a dean supporter

And I was very impressed that those three did that. And I'm impressed that Graham was right there, too. I'm proud of them for doing the right thing.

So, yeah, I'm in "The Dean Forces" and I don't appreciate us being painted with such a broad brush. Take it up with the individuals who are guilty of your allegations and leave the rest of us out of it.

[rucky]

2. Go Back to Spin School

eom

[MercutioATC]

3. ...and Kerry and Leiberman abstained when called to vote on the bill.

I applaud Kerry for the filibuster, but abstaining was just wrong.

A question: How is voting inconsistent with your beliefs a good thing? Voting for a filibuster and then abstaining on the actual vote hardly qualifies one for leadership.

(on edit)

I didn't see Edwards on the "abstained" list. If he DID abstain, he deserves equal bad press.

[genius]

4. Stop the Dean spin. They voted to stop the bill. Be honest

These guys voted when it really counted and were heros on the Medicare issue. Even Daschle and Reid chickened out when it came to the fillibuster.

[MercutioATC]

6. But they STILL abstained. I just want to know why.

If they didn't support the bill, why didn't they vote against it? These half-measures are exactly what our party DOESN'T need. How do their actions show any kind of leadership?

[genius]

10. They VOTED to stop the bill. Daschle vote to guarantee passage and then

voted against the bill. Daschle was being dishonest in so doing. However, the Dean people prefer smoke and mirrors to honesty. Makes sense. Otherwise they wouldn't be supporting Dean.

[MercutioATC]

14. This is "smoke and mirrors" by Kerry, not Dean...

Nobody's saying that Kerry didn't filibuster. In fact, my response specifically agreed with him on that.

That done, even knowing that you'd lost, WHY not vote against it? If you have already gone on record as objecting to it, why not lodge the vote?

[genius]

17. Kerry worked hard to stop the bill. Dean wants people to think otherwise

Do Dean and his supporters ever take the honest approach? I haven't seen any evidence of any honesty from him here. Admit it, Kerry did the right thing - as did Lieberman and Edwards.

[MercutioATC]

19. Kerry DID want to stop the vote...and then refused to vote when the vote

happened anyway.

Again, WHY did he abstain?

[genius]

30. Kerry voted to stop the bill. Dean didn't. Maybe we should spin that

It would be as honest as the misleading nonsense the Dean camp is putting out.

[Hep]

39. No it wouldn't

TO suggest a former governor has a vote in congress would just make you look stupid.

We're not spinning, by the way, we're stating fact as reflected in the congressional record. He voted against Cloture, and abstained from the final vote. Do you dispute that? It can't be spin by definition because we're not interpreting the information. Spin is what we might DO with the fact that he abstained. But we're not doing anything. We're being fair minded enough to ask if there's a reason. We're actually TRYING to get your side, and all you are doing is responding with hostilities and unfair accusations.

[MercutioATC]

43. Thanks, Hep. If you read my first post, that's exactly what I said.

I never said that Kerry didn't make the right decision with the filibuster (I believe "kudos" was my reaction), I just disagreed with his lack of follow-through. All I'm looking for is an explanation.

[Skidmore]

100. At this point, you can count me out of being "for" any one particular

candidate. However, I fully agree with those critical of Kerry. If he didn't support the bill, then he needed to vote against it--as should the others who behaved like him in this situation. The point is that those votes would have been important in and of themselves. If this is the support the working man can count on from the Dems, then we deserve what we're getting now. All of us need to stand up when it counts and this was one of those times when it counted.

[blm]

7. He was gone by then. It's not like he wouldn't vote for it

especially since he was already on record in the Senate for filibustering AGAINST the bill.

To pretend that he didn't want to be on record is nonsense trumped up to mischaracterize what happened for political gain by opportunists.

[MercutioATC]

9. So WHY didn't he stick around for the vote?

If it wasn't because he didn't want a his vote used against him by the Republicans later, why? He'd already done the debate via satellite. The others (Lieberman aside) managed to register their vote. Why wouldn't he vote against it if he was RIGHT THERE anyway?

[genius]

18. He was there for the right vote on Medicare. Anything else is

irrelevant except to someone trying to twist the truth.

[MercutioATC]

21. He didn't VOTE on Medicare. THAT'S the fact.

Again, I'm not denying the importance of the filibuster (as I've said from my first post). However, when the filibuster failed, he was one of only 2 senators who abstained. Why?

[genius]

27. He voted to stop the Medicare Bill and that's a fact. Here is the vote

to stop the bill that counted.

Nays
Akaka (D-HI)
Bayh (D-IN)
Bingaman (D-NM)
Boxer (D-CA)
Byrd (D-WV)
Cantwell (D-WA)
Chafee (R-RI)
Clinton (D-NY)
Dodd (D-CT)
Durbin (D-IL)
Edwards (D-NC)
Feingold (D-WI)
Graham (D-FL)
Hagel (R-NE)
Harkin (D-IA)
Hollings (D-SC)
Inouye (D-HI)
Kennedy (D-MA)
Kerry (D-MA)
Lautenberg (D-NJ)
Leahy (D-VT)
Levin (D-MI)
Lieberman (D-CT)
McCain (R-AZ)
Reed (D-RI)
Rockefeller (D-WV)
Sarbanes (D-MD)
Schumer (D-NY)
Stabenow (D-MI)

[MercutioATC]

32. Yes, he did. When that failed, he refused to vote "no" on the bill.

Why?

[genius]

54. There were fifty-four votes for the bill. What difference would the

symbollism have made except to give him a better argument against the Dean spin-doctors. He was more concerned with saving Medicare than with spin.

[MercutioATC]

65. So why should ANYBODY vote when the Repubs control Congress?

Hell, if they've got the votes, what's the point?

The "DIFFERENCE" is that by voting against the bil, he would have been consistant and would have been doing the jobhe's being paid to do. In light of this, I'm curious as to why he chose to abstain. That's so unreasonable?

[genius]

68. Our only power is the fillibuster. The vote was over with the fillibuster

No other votes even mattered when it came to Medicare.

[MercutioATC]

70. What about all of those votes that aren't filibustered?

My point is that it's NOT over with the end of the filibuster. Our Congressmen still have a responsibility to vote. That aside, are you saying that Kerry didn't vote because he didn't think there was a point to voting? Why did everybody but Lieberman disagree with him?

[Hep]

24. That's a good question.

Why abstain? If he was against the bill, why not vote against the bill? I have a theory, but that WOULD be Dean spin, so I'll keep it to myself.

[Armstead]

5. They should have voted

At least they would have been on record, and skewed the total more towards the No votes. As it is the numbers give Bush more ammo to call this a "bipartisan" victory, once again showing his great leadership.

Kerry and Lieberman should be ashamed. Just a few hours and they couldn't wait and finish the fight.

[genius]

8. You prefer symbollic efforts to real efforts? Dean should be ashamed

for the slanderous attack his people are launching against these too. Daschle and Reid should be ashamed. But Kerry, Lieberman, Edwards, Byrd, Kennedy and the others who supported the fillibuster should be proud.

The difference between Kerry and Lieberman and Dean is that Kerry and Lieberman are not using smoke and mirrors. They are geniune and they are doing the right thing. I don't agree with them a lot but the type of attack I am seeing here is pretty low. Only 29 people in the Senate did the right thing and we need to applaud them not slander them.

[MercutioATC]

11. No, I prefer consistancy.

Why the HELL wouldn't you vote according to your beliefs? Kerry obviously didn't support the bill. Why didn't he vote against it?

[genius]

15. If so, you wouldn't be suporting Dean. He cut services in Vermont

to give tax breaks to the rich. Your whole purpose here is to throw up red herrings to attack Lieberman and Kerry. They perform an act of heroism and you want to slander them for it.

[MercutioATC]

16. It's not "heroic" to be afraid to lodge your vote.

They DID do the right thing with the filibuster. Their lack of follow-through concerns me, though.

[genius]

22. Kerry Lieberman (and also Edwards) lodged their votes when they counted

This is a great series of interchanges because they show that Dean people care about symbollism rather than making a difference and that the Deanbots like to mislead.

[blm]

23. YOU are saying he "afraid to lodge his vote." That's untrue.

If that were the case he wouldn't have filibustered FOR THE RECORD. Sheesh.

Kerry has condemned the bill at every opportunity on the campaign trail and done so PUBLICLY while broadcast. If he was "afraid" he wouldn't be on record at all.

[genius]

25. Can you believe the spin? Kerry voted on the right side and they

want to make him out to be a bad guy. This is the kind of dirty politics I would expect from the Republicans.

[AP]

28. What has Dean said about this bill?

?

[Hep]

33. Why do people never look it up before they ask?

And why is it that Dean supporters are supposed to run out and get the answer gith away while we have to ask the Kerry supporters a hundred times for one coherent answer? Dog only knows, but here:

DES MOINES--Governor Dean issued the following statement today:

"In its unseemly rush to go home for Thanksgiving, the Senate abandoned America's seniors to the tender mercies of the drug industry and HMOs. Congress claims they’ve passed a prescription drug benefit -- but for America’s seniors, this bill is a turkey and it represents everything wrong with Washington today.

"This bill will pay for less than a quarter of our seniors' prescription drug costs. It actually prohibits the government from negotiating lower drug prices from the drug industry. It takes billions away from middle-class seniors and gives them away as HMO subsidies. It keeps seniors from importing safe, affordable medicines from Canada. It guarantees drug prices stay high, eliminates employer-based coverage for millions of Americans, and drives millions more out of traditional Medicare into untested, unreliable private plans.

We can fix this terrible mess. We can leverage lower drug prices out of drug companies, encourage generic drug use and secure generous, guaranteed and affordable drug coverage -- all in traditional Medicare. In Vermont we actually provided a prescription drug benefit and we went after the drug industry and drug prices, and we can do it again for America because the people not the special interests run this campaign. This bill had a near-death experience in the House. It should have died there. Instead of delivering a real Medicare drug benefit, Congress found a way to protect the drug industry’s prices and HMO industry's profit margins.We can't afford to play this kind of cynical politics with our country's health any longer. Until we change Washington and challenge its entrenched special interests, America's seniors will continue to get the short end of the stick."



http://www.blogforamerica.com/

[genius]

38. Dean's for the H.M.O's What a hypocrite

And for his people to be negatively spinning the vote of a hero on the issue is outrageous.

[MercutioATC]

45. Hey, I have an HMO and I'm happy with it.

A HMO through the FEHBP, one of the programs Dean wants to expand to cover more of the uninsured.

[genius]

47. Lucky you. A lot of patients die waiting in the waiting room of H.M.O.s

amd they have insulated themselves against most liability for intentional malpractice. H.M.O.'s are for people who are never sick or for people who want to die.

[MercutioATC]

57. Not ALL HMO's, obviously...

Before you attack ALL HMO's, look at how they operate under the FEHBP (the program that Dean wants to expand). To be included in the FEHBP, insurers have to agree to certain minimum coverages and cannot deny coverage for pre-existing conditions.

Last year I had elevated liver enzymes. I had multiple visits to my doctor (with full liver panels each time). I had three trips to a specialist (with MORE tests). I had an abdominal CAT scan. I never waited for services, none were delayed or denied, and I paid a total of $20 per office visit to my doctor and $25 per office visit to the specialist. All tests were covered 100%.

THIS is the coverage that Dean wants for America. I can't say that I have a problem with that.

[genius]

64. Good. I hope all of Dean's supporters wind up with H.M.O.'s and that

the rest of us wind up with quality medical coverage.

[MercutioATC]

69. You really don't READ my posts, do you?

I get better coverage than most people. I have an HMO. Specifically, I have an HMO under the exact plan that Dean advocates.

Your post implies that HMO's and "quality medical coverage" are mutually exclusive. Some may be, hell, MOST may be, but my HMO gives me better coverage than most people have.

[Hep]

63. And a lot of people

never even get health insurance.

[AP]

78. In many cases, having an HMO is about the same as not having health in-

surance, except that you have to pay for it.

[Hep]

85. True

But it doesn't have to be that way.

[AP]

49. HMOs suck. They make money by denying services. Keeping you healthy

isn't their bottom line. Making money is.

[MercutioATC]

73. Some do, some don't. MINE doesn't, and it's the plan that Dean wants.

There are dangers to over-generalizing...

[AP]

75. Anectdote, yes, but the truth: I have a very good friend who has

displayed over my lifetime a great concern for my health and well-being. He's a med mal lawyer who defends doctors. He has told me repeatedly, "don't evern sign up for an HMO. Get the best insurance you can."

He has never said, "don't ever join and HMO, except for {x}." He's NEVER seen an HMO he likes.

[MercutioATC]

79. I agree, many ARE horrible. Without minimizing that, I DO know of a good

health benefits plan that includes HMO's because I'm a member. It's also true that this is the very plan that Dean wants to make a part of his national health care plan.

[AP]

80. Maybe you just haven't pushed it to its limits yet?

What have you asked that HMO to do for you?

Maybe it's bait and switch. Maybe their business plan is to behave for a year or two until the government mandates that you have to join them and creates an artificial subsidy for them, after which they'll no longer have to compete for your business.

Thw whole business model is crap. Show me a good HMO today, and I'll show you a crappy HMO in 2 to 4 years.

[MercutioATC]

81. Abdominal CAT scan, Upper endoscopy, 2 MRI's...

plus numerous tests. Actually, I've been with 3 different HMO's under the FEHBP ober the past 13 years and have had similar experiences with all of them. One even covered a surgeon that they had no obligation to cover because I threatened to sue them (a totally bogus threat, they were well within their rights).

My point is that they can't "bait and switch". They have rules by which they must abide if they want to offer insurance to federal workers. Occasionally an insurer will drop out, but the number of remaining plans (and new plans) suggest that they're still making money.

[AP]

82. I'm going to have to guess that you're the exception to the rule

if you've been having a decent experience individually, over the same period of time my med mal friend has seen literally hundreds of cases of HMOs denying people services and using crappy rules to avoid liability. My friend has experience from the pre-HMO days and has commented on the very distinct changes in the industry, and has commented on how much worse it has gotten and how it almost entirely correlates to the business practices of HMOs.

And remember, this guy DEFENDS hospitals and doctors and insurance companies -- so he's spending 9 to 5 helping these people, and then spending the weekends cautioning everyone he cares about to stick with Blue Cross Blue Shield, even if it's three times more expensive.

[AP]

90. Yikes. Dean doesn't want people to be able to sue HMOs.

Healthplan: Do you think consumers should be able to sue their HMO?
Dean: No, I don't think that is helpful. I think lawsuits in general aren't helpful. I favor arbitration.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/405541


What the hell?

[Hep]

91. Interesting

How do you feel about arbitration versus lawsuits? I can't say I've devoted a lot of thought to it.

[MercutioATC]

94. It's NOT an exception with FEHBP. That's what I'm trying to tell you.

Saying "HMO's are bad" is like saying "fire is bad". Sure, it can do bad things but, under the proper controls, it can also be beneficial. The system that Dean wants to expand has PPV's, PPO's and HMO's, but under very specific constraints. My experience is NOT out of the ordinary at all.

THIS is what he means when he says (as Kerry does) that the health insurance your Congressman has is good enough for you, too.

[Hep]

74. All business works that way

It's why we have regulation.

[AP]

76. HMO regulations aren't working, apparently.

And my head is spinning. I can't believe I'm being put in a position where I have to defend my criticism of HMOs on a dem board!

Do you two work for an HMO? Is an HMO paying your salary?

[Hep]

87. I don't work for an HMO

And I'm not questioning your critique. I'm just saying that if regulation isn't working, it needs to be made to work. I don't think HMO's are a lost cause. And while I like, maybe even prefer Kucinich's health plan, I don't see it is being one that will pass in this political climate.

[Hep]

58. You'r enot understanding

Let's go over this again. We;'re not spinning anything. We're asking for information. If I say Kerry voted for IWR, it's not spin. It's fact. HowI use that information in discourse would be spin. OK, do we know the difference now? Good.

OK, so now you illustrate exactly how dean is FOR HMO's. And I'll say that I'm not against HMO's. I'm just against greed. I used to belong to a great HMO. Of cours,e it's the great HMO's that get run out of business. It doesn't mean HMO's are bad by design. It just means that there's a lot of screwed up shit going on there right now.

So, now you go.

[Andromeda]

101. Yaaaay Dean!

:kick:

[genius]

34. Dean's people are the ones pushing this nonsense

And this is the kind of dirty politics that we used to expect from the Republicans. I'm not even for Kerry but someone has to defend him from these misleading attacks.

[Hep]

29. Revisionist history and it isn't even a week old

Kerry had two votes. He voted on the right side once, and not so much the second time. All I want to know is why. I don't think it's a huge deal. I'm not all up in arms about it as you seem to wish I were. I just want to know, if you're going to take the day off of the campaign and fight this bill, why not go all the way? Is it because of the AARP rating it would give him? Is it because he gave up? Is it because he was really hungry an grabbed a bite to eat? Is there any stated reason at all?

[MercutioATC]

31. Did Kerry abstain or not? Applauding him for the filibuster but taking

issue with his refusal to vote "no" isn't spin.

[MercutioATC]

37. O.K. why, then, didn't he vote against the Medicare bill?

He IS, after all, drawing a Congressional salary. Missing an occasional vote to campaign usually isn't a big deal, but 1) he was right there anyway and 2) he IS being paid to vote.

Why the "abstain"?

[genius]

41. He voted to stop the Medicare bill. That is the only vote againt the bill

that made a difference.

[MercutioATC]

46. So you don't want to answer?

I agree that the filibuster was the only chance the Dems had. When that failed, the Repubs had the vote locked up.

That understood, why not vote against the bill?

[genius]

56. Why don't you answer why you are trying to mislead people?

Is this all there is to Dean's campaign?

[MercutioATC]

60. I'm telling the truth and asking questions. How is that misleading?

It is fact that Kerry filibustered against the Medicare bill coming to a vote. That was very good.

It is fact that when the filibuster failed, he chose to abstain from voting against the bill. I believe this was a bad thing.

I just want to know the reasons behind his decision to abstain from voting against a bill that he so obviously didn't agree with.

[genius]

89. Your asking questions like "How stopped beating your wife?" to

someone who is unmarried. Your question implies Kerry did something wrong when he did everything right and is a hero. It seeks to negate that he voted his opposition to the bill by voting against cloture. The only vote he missed was irrelevant. Dirty politics - something that has become a trademark of the Dean campaign. Glad I quit Dean's campaign. I like clean hands.

[MercutioATC]

95. Not even close. I gave credit for the filibuster, I just want to know why

he stopped there. Why no vote? If it WAS so irrelevant, why was Lieberman the only other Senator who thought so?

Not dirty politics, looking for answers. Not spin, facts.

[Andromeda]

102. Hold on there ...

nobody is misleading anybody here. You've just been asked a simple question: Why didn't Kerry actually vote against the Medicare bill? If you don't know just say so.

I heard it was because he wanted to campaign in Iowa since he's losing badly there. Good reason to miss an important vote--- campaigning.

Yeah, sure.

[AP]

13. Well said.

I'm with you.

[Hep]

26. Why must there be a preference

between symbolic and real efforts? Why not a real AND a symbolic effort? The opportunity was there.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

83. Dean has no shame

or he wouldn't have said a lot of the things he has.

[mbali]

84. Not quite accurate

"Only 29 people in the Senate did the right thing and we need to applaud them not slander them."

You're right that only 29 people voted against cloture, but a no vote on cloture really means nothing. Those trying to invoke cloture must get 60 votes, or cloture doesn't pass, regardless how many or how few no votes there are. If there are 59 votes for cloture, it doesn't pass, even if there are zero no votes. So it doesn't really matter how many people vote against it, as long as they don't vote for it. A no vote is symbolic, but it has absolutely no effect on the outcome. Thus, it's not really fair to criticize anyone for not voting no, as long as they didn't vote yes.

[sandnsea]

12. Politically miscalculating

That's my problem with them not voting. In my mind they didn't vote so a no vote couldn't be turned against them. But now they'll be labeled as not voting on the most important Medicare bill in 40 years. And they can't stand up and say they voted No either. It was politically stupid and the reason Democrats keep losing. That's why I'm angry. Edwards put it on record and that's what we need to do if we're ever going to start winning again.

And Dean is a big fan of HMO's, so don't even go there.

[Hep]

35. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Dean fans know all about the conundrum. I don't fault Kerry. If it wasn't going to pass it wasn't going to pass. What it came down to is cutting losses. Would he rathre be attacked by the left or the right on the issue? He chose the left. Probably a good move, but at the same time, D's not voting for you because you "sold out seniors" (which I don't believe, I'm just predicting the argument) seems worse than republicans not voting for you because you sold out seniors.

[Monte Carlo]

36. Kerry can't seem to do enough for certain people.

He can be there in the Senate fighting the good fight when it matters and that is normal, but because he's not there to vote after the battle is already over, oh, that's unforgiveable.

Don't give me this junk, "he didn't want to go on record". He IS on record for the filibuster and cloture. The actual vote is an afterthought.

[MercutioATC]

40. I don't think it's "unforgivable". I'd just like an explanation.

1) He was right there

2) He's actually paid to vote

Why did he abstain if not for political gain?

[Monte Carlo]

48. What political gain?

How is he going to straddle both sides of this issue when he - on the record, mind you - came all the way to D.C. from Iowa to filibuster it? I can't think of a way.

He's paid to represent, and he did that. The battle was over before the vote.

[MercutioATC]

52. I have NO idea. Some say that now the Repub's can't attack his

vote on this bill, but that doesn't make sense to me. He's clearly come out against it. I'm just asking why he didn't VOTE that way.

[Monte Carlo]

61. The GOP is CERTAIN to attack his filibuster.

I don't see how an absination is going to change that, either.

Well, if I had to take a stab at his reasons, I'd say that he's got lots of work to do in Iowa with no time to wait around for the ultra-slow procedures of the Senate.

[genius]

59. Well said. The battle was over with the fillibuster

The problem is that the Dean people are good at making their misrepresentations stick.

[Monte Carlo]

66. Some Dean supporters can be zealous, but I cannot fault them.

for it.

I can appreciate where they come from. I voted for Nader in 2000, and the attraction to a candidate that speaks plain English is very, very strong.

[genius]

51. Unforgivable that he voted to save Medicare when it counted

Anyone pushing this argument must have had experience with the Republican Party.

[Hep]

42. I agree

that they deserve to be commended, and I already sent them kudos twice. I just want to know WHY. There's a reason, and I want to know what it is, even if he didn't vote because he really needed a back massage, I DON'T CARE. I'd just like to know why.

[Monte Carlo]

67. I don't know why, but if I had to guess...

... I'd say that his campaign is more important right now than formalizing a bad loss in the Senate.

[Hep]

72. That's definitely true

But he was in DC during the debate. Edwards voted, did he not? Kerry isn't even in the DC primary, so what kind of campaigning was he doing?

Never mind, I really don't care. This isn't even an issue. I don't think any less of him than I did yesterday, and no, it isn't because I can't think any less of him.

;)

[genius]

44. Dean skipped out on his last year as governor to campaign but

Kerry gets nailed for voting when it counts and going off to campaign when it doesn't. This game-playing is why supporters of other candidates will support Kerry if he gets the nomination. He doesn't pull this stuff.

[MercutioATC]

50. Dean left office a year early to campaign...there's a difference.

When he knew he'd be pursuing the Presidency, he left office. He didn't just "skip out".

[genius]

55. He was still governor. He put himself before his constitutents

just as he will in the White House.

[Hep]

62. LOL

What's Kerry's voting record since he astarted running?

He shows up to one vote and he's a hero. Kucinich is the only hero here. He actually sacrificed his campaign to be a congressman.

[MercutioATC]

71. You're not a Governor any more when you leave office.

Dean left office a year into his last term. He left so Vermont WOULDN'T be without the services of a Governor while he campaigned. In fact, he gave up the paycheck when he left, so I really don't see how he "put himself first".

[sandnsea]

77. January 8 2003

Vermont complained about Dean being missing for the entire year of 2002. He left office on January 8.

http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/dean/dean010803spt.html

Douglas was elected in 2002 and took office on January 16, 2003

http://www.rherald.com/News/2003/0116/Front_Page/f01.html

I swear I don't know where some of this wild Dean stuff comes from.

[genius]

88. At least Vermonters thought he was their governor in 2002

If he left office in 2002, this is news to the state of Vermont.

[sandnsea]

92. Scurrying like cockroaches

You notice who scurries when facts are brought to the light of day?

[JI7]

96. wondering the same thing

dean left office early ? that's news to me. while dean was in office did he do anything as governor to oppose the patriot act ? as a lot of local and state officials did by either pushing for laws to oppose it or certain parts of it ?

[MercutioATC]

93. My mistake. I had my facts wrong.

...and I'm not "scurrying" anywhere. I have no problem admitting when I've made a mistake.

[sandnsea]

97. It's rare

I guess you're the exception.

[MercutioATC]

98. Guess so.

.

[Hep]

53. Did he go off to campaign?

Is that what he did instead of voting?

[KoKo]

86. Got their "Butts in Gear" did they? n/t

n/t

[CreekDog]

99. What Does It Say When...

Chafee and McCain are more reliable votes than Feinstein?

Oh my.