Dean and Kucinich are unelectable, Clark cannot be nominated

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

Hate to say it folks, but it's true (if half of what I read here is true). Kucinich isn't attractive enough, looks like an elf. Dean is too angry, dresses very badly, and is just way way to liberal for most Americans. Clark is just a Republican in disguise - he is from the Army remember?

So I'm sorry, it's not going to be Kucinich (unelectable), Dean (unelectable) or Clark (can't get the nomination).

So who else do we have?

[neuvocat]

1. Jimmy Carter said that Bush will be re-elected.

I guess we can save ourselves the trouble of elections.

[SeveneightyWhoa]

So I guess Jimmy Carter..

..is the foremost authority of NEVER being wrong. Is that a correct assumption here on my part?

[elperromagico]

18. Did Jimmy Carter think he would be reelected in 1980?

[neuvocat]

47. That is correct.

Some people are never ever wrong and can therefore predict the future, just like some of these posters here.

[CMT]

14. he didn't say he would be re-elected

he said he was favored to be re-elected as most incumbent presidents are.

[neuvocat]

49. In that case...

what makes a man who was actually elected President not so sure of the outcomes of the race as some of these posters here?

[Carrion]

25. Carter Also Said

That he new of nothing about Dean made him "unelectable"......
in that same interview with Charlie Rose.

[RetroLounge]

81. and what does Jimmy Carter know about re-election?

eom

[mrgorth]

2. Well if you're down on them

go with Kerry. He's right up there for me.

[terrya]

3. Well, your take brings up the Hillary option.

This is the hopes of the supporters of Hillary Clinton.

NO ONE has a commanding lead going into the convention.

Hillary then accepts a draft and becomes the nominee.

[elperromagico]

23. I suspect it's the hope of George W. Bush supporters as well

Rove would love to unleash some Grade A Clinton material in '04. Bush's numbers go up in a hypothetical match-up against Clinton.

She's not the candidate for now, and I think even she realizes that.

[sandnsea]

28. She voted for the war

patriot act, homeland security and nclb. She's out.

[brainshrub]

70. Amen

[OHdem10]

40. Hilary is unelectable also----

Hilary is very popular among the base but if you are honest she is a lightenig rod to bring out the Republican Vote. She probably re cognizes she is too polarizing at this time.

Clark and Dean can get the nomination.

[HazMat]

73. LOL. and Dean isn't going to bring out the GOP base ?

Dean is far more polarizing than Hillary. Hillary at least has a mainstream position on Iraq, foreign policy and taxes. Also, Dean is extremely partisan -- his angry rhetoric stokes his base as much as it does the GOP base.

[HFishbine]

45. Not Quite

IF, big if, there is a brokered convention, Gore will be in line ahead of Clinton.

[spindoctor]

4. Did you say Kucinich is unelectable?

...

I thought that was my line!

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

21. You are right.

It could be said more eloquently but you are right that Kerry is the one who could give us the WH back and perhaps even a majority in the Senate. I don't think the same can be said about any of the others.

[Ficus]

5. OH NO

I think that Dean and Kucinich supporters are used to hearing that they are unelectable. Clark people are used to him being called a Republican. So, if the point is to get people to switch to something else, you'll have to try a new angle.

[RobertSeattle]

7. Army = Republican?

Oh, Me and my father need to change parties then.

Get a clue. Daft anti-military is a sure ticket to a 2nd Tier Party.

[Bonobo]

12. You're 2/3 right...

I am beginning to agree that Dean won't beat Bush although it was Dean I was heavily supporting to this point. But it is so clear now that Clark would SPANK the chimps' red ass in the elelction.

Clark can get the nomination if we as Democrats understand the first 2 parts of your statement.

I think you see things clearly in terms of the political landscape and I hope you are wrong about Clark's chances in this f-cked up electoral process.

[BigBigBigBear]

26. I agree

SkeptyCal.

I like Dean, I agree with Dean, I share his enmity for Bush. I just think that sympathizing with and echoing Bush-hatred isn't enough to beat the Republican Machine with its $200 million dollars.

As I've said before, this no time for another Northeastern progressive.

Clark can lure the South, the military and middle of the roaders who may not HATE Bush but sense a lack of true mettle and empty rhetoric. He can also pull some Republican votes - when it comes right down to it, we will need to cash in on growing Republican disaffection with Bush. I don't think Dean can do that - I think Clark can. Let Rove and Co attack a four-star general's leadership. Let them try.

I have believed this since last August, and nothing since then has convinced me otherwise.

Think about a Bush second term, without another election to restrain his neocon inclinations....

[Oreegone]

8. I'm not buying that Dean is unelectable

This BS the puklibans is spreading is just that. They would like to think people are not pissed.....only time will tell.

[SeveneightyWhoa]

13. It isnt Republicans saying that, its Democrats.

Republicans are heavily cheering Dean on.

"Go Dean, Go Dean, YAAAAAY!" - the inner monologue of Rove, Cheney, Gillespie, Bush, etc.

[Mattforclark]

22. In the post debate hardball thing...

They had on a 'former Reagan speech writer.' They were talking about Dean.

'His anger.' 'That will really hurt him in the General election,' she says, a huge grin spreading across her face.

[OneBlueSky]

54. I've been following elections for several decades now . . .

and my gut (which is seldom wrong) tells me that Dean will be destroyed by Bush . . . he'll be painted into a liberal corner with gy marriage and lack of foreign policy experience hung around his neck, and probably lose in a landslide . . . just because he's garnering Democratic votes for the primaries doesn't mean he'll be successful in a general election . . . jmho . . .

[HazMat]

67. OneBlueSky - right on - Dean would be toast

I haven't been wrong about the general outcome of every presidential election since 1980 (the first one I was old enough to follow). It's obvious what kind of candidate can win a natonal election in this political climate -- a Bill Clinton with some military experience would be perfect but the next best thing is a Kerry or a Clark. Kerry is a NE liberal, but he is still a great American and a Veteran -- qualities that play well in all regions. There's no chance of getting any of the swing or southern states if our candidate has no military experience and/or if he seems too pacifist -- Southernerners especially view that as unpatriotic. If we allow the GOP to wrap themselves in the flag (by having a Dean type candidate) it's will be a landslide loss for us.

[ozone_man]

64. Absolutely right!

Republicans are afraid of that anger. Its building, and its gone to burst and inundate Bush. The populist wave of anger will carry Dean all the way.

[SeveneightyWhoa]

9. Dean is almost as centrist as Clark.

Its funny that the GOP/RNC has portrayed Dean as ultra-leftist, and Clark as a rightwing Republican, when reality shows that both are quite liberal/centrist.

[Melodybe]

36. People HAVE to quit talking like this!!!!

I swear if one more person posts this trash again! Now is not the time to be telling ourselves this. IT IS COMPLETELY UNTRUE!!! You are doing exactly what they want. They have long been telling us that we will loose no mater who we pick! How can we loose when we are in the MAJORITY! We had the election stolen last time and now we know what is up their sleeve. WE ARE SMARTER THAN THEM! They are scared shitless because they feel their grip is loosening. WAKE UP, if you are unhappy, fucking do something about it, quit fucking whining and help. Seriously this whole Eore "why even bother" has to stop now! I quote MLK,

"I REFUSE TO ACCEPT THE VIEW THAT MANKIND IS SO TRAGICALLY BOUND TO THE STARLESS MIDNIGHT OF RACISM AND WAR THAT THE BRIGHT DAYBREAK OF PEACE AND BROTHERHOOD CAN NEVER BECOME REALITY. I BELIEVE THAT UNARMED TRUTH AND UNCONDITIONAL LOVE WILL HAVE THE FINAL WORD"

Yes this may be our version of the sixties, but damn, things are so much better now then they were then. And you want to hand over what so many have fought and died for just because fucking CNN told you too. Give me a break, I am so busy my god damn head wants to explode. Currently I am writing 10 pages to address to give to different black congregations (I'm white, BTW). I am organizing the local Dean meet-ups, I am trying to find a place for a free concert that will showcase a group of local musicians at a voter registration drive, and I am talking to the public library about once a month showing different nonpartisan documentaries like Manufacturing Consent and Roger and Me. Next Monday I am calling all the surrounding High schools to see if we can put up fliers for a voting drive of their own. Me and a group of about five are getting the ball rolling here in OXFORD FUCKING MISSISSIPPI, and you want to hand the election to Bush again. GET OFF YOUR ASS OR SHUT THE FUCK UP! I am a 25 year-old mother of 2, that just received her degree in anthropology. My husband works his ass off everyday so that we can make ends meet. If I can do it, you can too, please dear lord! You are either part of the problem or part of the solution, you decide.

[NicoleM]

50. Props.

And welcome to DU. :)

[Oreegone]

10. Oh and another thing

Dean is too liberal....LMAO...right, pretty darned moderate I'd say.

HELP THE SKY IS FALLING:boring:

[Emperor_Norton_II]

11. By the authority vested in me as Emperor...

I declare this flame thread open. Everybody to your corners and come out swinging.

One small point: If things get too nasty, the referee will come out and put a hurtin' on you:



Now FIGHT!

[Bonobo]

15. Please, no more fighting...

Can't we all agree at least that we will support the candidate with the best chance against the smirking one?

Isn't it clear that Clark would just embarass him in a one on one comparison?
My god, just think about showing a split frame with the Chimp in the flight suit and Clark in his real fatigues leading real soldiers?

[youngred]

31. no more fighting indeed

but we are all free to choose our own candiadtes on their merits and our stances. I think they almost all have a chance of beating bush (except perhaps CMB and Sharpton).

I would have no issue supporting Clark, but I think he'd make a better VP balancing act to a Dean, Kerry or Kucinich

[Demobrat]

35. Clark can't talk coherently about anything but war.

And his supporters think that's enough. But most people in this country don't want war. They want good schools, jobs and health care. If you're not impressed by a uniform, Clark brings nothing to the table for you. And believe it or not, people can figure that out.

[kiahzero]

53. Spoken like someone who's never listened to Clark (n/t)

[redqueen]

56. IMO he speaks coherently.

But it's just a lot of feel-good talking points, with no real attempt to address any of the underlying problems facing the country.

[Demobrat]

58. I listened to him.

I listened to him mouth platitudes for an hour last night. Oh, sure, when asked about the war he can feign some passion, but they can all do that. The difference is the rest can actually say something intelligent about something besides the army.

[youngred]

16. might as well give up now

gotta believe what those media whores keep tellin us about our candidates. and we gotta destroy anyone who disagrees with our candidate, so might as well just let bush have 2004.

While we're at it why don't we just amend the constitution to say that there must always be a Bush as President. I mean there's no way any of our people will win.

and since when does one being from the army make them automatically a republican?

our field is pretty damn strong thank you very much

[BJ]

17. The Democratic Party always has Zell Miller!

With this kind of attitude any and all Democrats are unelectable so, like Ronald Reagan said of rape, if it (one-party rule) is inenvitable, relax and enjoy it.

[Hep]

19. I'm moving

n/t

[Occulus]

20. Personally, I think that between

Dean, Kucinich, and Clark, we have one President and two Cabinet members.

Imagine if ALL the Dem candidates said, in a debate, that regardless of which of them gets the nomination, we're looking at the Democratic cabinet and heads of agencies when they're onstage.

"My name is Wesley Clark, and if NOT elected as President, in a Democratic administration, I have already agreed to accept nomination to the post of _______."

Every one of them.

[Ficus]

27. interesting concept

but good luck getting them all to not fight over the cool cabinet positions. I mean, who wants to be head of Veteran's Affairs when you could be Secretary of Defense.

[tigereye]

32. We shouldn't let the right's negative spin influence how we think

about our candidates. That is the point of spin, it's insidious and used to divide. I haven't made up my mind about who I should support yet... but we need a feisty and articulate candidate. People need to be told that things are not good and that is why they should not re-elect Bush. It seems to me that we are shooting ourselves in the foot with bickering and negative thinking, trashing our own, and in some ways doing the right's work. The only way to get someone elected is to believe it can happen and work to that end.

[Brucey]

24. I sympathize with the frustration that WCTV has, and the point is

almost correct. Dean, however, has an outside chance of winning in 2004 if everything goes right. Also, Clark does have a chance at the nomination because of all the delegates from Southern states (in fact, he has a very good chance). So, yes, it is frustrating, but we can do it if things go our way.

[BlueEyedSon]

29. Why don't YOU run? nt

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

30. oh, I am most certainly unelectable

no doubt about that! :bounce:

[gristy]

33. Ya know what bothers me the most about most about your posts?

Your opinion put forth as fact. Your opinions are not facts. They are opinions. And often so completely unsubstantiated they would be laughable if the topics were not so important.

Clark is a Republican because he was in the Army? Oh, they don't let Democrats serve? What a crock.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

34. that's just me?

"Your opinion put forth as fact."

Surely you can't be saying that only I do that? Besides, I was expecting the sarcasm to be more evident - Kucinich is electable, Dean is electable, Clark can be nominated. I'm just tired of the "Kucinich is unelectable" meme, because he is just as electable as the others.

I thought the statement "Clark is a Republican since he's in the army" is so obviously ridiculous that it would be taken in the spirit it was offered. Guess not!

[gristy]

41. Sarcasm in GD on this important subject?

And sarcasm without a winking smiley? I gave up sarcasm about 10 years ago. It only masquerades as humor, and any perceived thread of truth within it will only hurt and degrade. Sarcasm applied the way you have is not helpful.

If you are going to start sarcastic posts such as this (and I wish you wouldn't), please do it in the lounge AND please make it clear you are being sarcastic. We can't see your facial expressions or body language, we can't hear your tone of voice, and many of us don't know you that well.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

43. okay I'm not being sarcastic

I have been told over and over again by Dean supporters that Kucinich is unelectable, told over and over again by Clark supporters that Dean is unelectable, and told over and over again by Dean supporters that Clark is a Republican. I'm just repeating what I read here. So no sarcasm, perhaps just irony.

[sandnsea]

42. It's an opinion board

Your opinions are just opinions too, but you just wrote them as fact. I write without qualifiers, I was taught to write that way in order to sway an audience. People accuse me of writing my opinions as fact too. But when an opinion contains fact, the opinion writer highlights the fact outside of the opinion. That's just writing, in my opinion.

[gristy]

48. You have a point, but WCTV's post was the original post of the thread.

In starting a thread he should write it so as to encourage reasoned debate and to not mislead us as to his position. He really didn't do either.

[Julien Sorel]

37. I beg to differ.

With the awful economy we have going, and the people all enraged over the Iraqi war (why, just three weeks ago, there was an anti-war demonstration here and 15 people showed up), this election is going to be a walk in the park. At least, that's what the Deanites keep telling everyone. I don't know why you are babbling about electability, either, because it isn't a problem. If Bush wins a single state, it will be out of pity, kind of like Minnesota sticking with Mondale in 1984. In such an environment, candidate choice is irrelevant.

I already bought my tickets to the inauguration. Did you?

[jmaier]

38. Military != Republican

I spent my first 12 professional years in the military and then the national security establishment. I'm not a republican. Some of my associates were democrats and many were independents. My first high level (3*** general boss) voted for both JFK and Humphrey.

I agree that Wes Clark will have a tough road to the nomination but not inherently because of his military/security credentials. He is really going to have a challenge because of his late start and the unfortunate front-loading of the primaries.

If Dean is unelectable it's sadly because there is a great bias across the country with a northeastern democrat, even if they aren't really that far left. I think Dean is about a 40% of the popular vote candidate in the current environment: "improving" economy and national security hysteria.

Truth in advertising disclaimer: I am a Wes Clark supporter. But I'll go with any democratic nominee -- to unlikely victory or to crushing defeat.

[LSparkle]

39. Gore/Clark

If there's no clear reasonably-electable frontrunner by the convention, we should draft Al Gore and make Clark his running mate. With a 4-star general as his running mate (and not Joe L.), Gore would get as many votes as last time and then some. If we can just keep Nader out of it ...

[HFishbine]

44. Must be Kerry then

No, wait, he's too French-looking.

[mmonk]

46. Since Clark is just a

republican in disguise, I suggest you elect real democrats like Zell Miller or Joe Lieberman.

[Zorra]

51. Smirk is not electable.

Everyone else is.

[drewb]

52. Go Dennis Go!!!

He is definately not un-electable...

As far as I can see, he is one of the only honest candidates running!

[redqueen]

57. Correct!

He's the most honest and straightforward, therefore the most diametrically opposed to Bush!

Also, IMO people vote for who they like, and people don't like seasoned politicians with all their side-stepping and avoidance of issues. They like plain-spoken people.

Since Kucinich is the only candidate (besides AL) who can deliver straight-talk without lying all over the place (Bush can straight-talk, but he lies constantly), that means he can appeal to voters on a 'gut' level, so he's the one best suited to win!

[neuvocat]

63. Kucinich being "un-electable":

someone please explain that to me, especially since he's holding public office. Thanks.

[mlawson]

55. Clark can't be nominated???

Where do you get that??? Nonsense!

Also, Dean could certainly be elected, but I don't think the DNC will allow him the nomination.

Kucinich?? Um....

[neuvocat]

60. Apparently some people's opinions

are good enough for everyone.

I may support Clark but I won't call anyone's candidate "unelectable" because it simply isn't true.

[curse10]

59. Dean's liberal?

Since when?

[redqueen]

62. Well, he was being sarcastic...

but IMO Dean's biggest weakness would be his background contrasted with his current platform.

This SHOULD have been an issue for * in 2000, but the press were in his corner. Whether they'll do the same for Dean remains to be seen. :shrug:

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

65. not sarcastic

I misspoke. I was posting a theoretical, based on my understand from DU posters, that's all. Electability and winning the nomination are all real, substantial, and important issues that come up all the time. So, it's sincere (except for the "Clark is a Republican" thing, that's obviously not the case).

[Nlighten1]

61. Talk about flame bait

waste of bandwidth thread.

gg

[Bonobo]

79. Not flame bait.

It brings up legitimate issues that we must face in deciding who to throw our weight behind during this primary season.

I do not agree wih you and if you think it is a waste of bandwdith and merely flamebait, I respectfully suggest you do not post here or waste your time reading the thread. You are only exacerbating the "problem".

[Oreegone]

66. I love this quote GO DEAN

"He is not the most liberal candidate in the race. Nor is he the smoothest talker, the most experienced, the freshest face, the best looking, or, by many accounts, the most electable. Yet he combines just enough of those qualities with a direct -- some would say apolitical -- style to accomplish something more." This is from Marc Sandalow, "Dean's tour de force has edge in primaries" San Francisco Chronicle November 24, 2003.

GO DEAN !!! ......A Fiesty Little Bastard is exactly what we need.

[Polemonium]

75. nice one

and the fiesty little bastard has more fiesty supporters than anyone. The grassroots energy of his campaign is unprecidented in democratic circles. To discount this grassroots energy, and to fall into the thoughtless mimicry of the out of touch and uninformed is a big mistake.

[arewethereyet]

68. Why Mr Edwards of course ! The man with the plan !

and with the only accent that has gotten elected president as a Dem.

Now, that was easy wasn't it ?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

69. actually I really like Edwards' economic plan

He is a true populist, he'd make a great president.

[arewethereyet]

72. whats not to like ? its a deliverable, popular program he has

And, no kidding, I really don't think any of the others really have much of a chance. The leaders just have too much baggage that will get vaporized by the other side. What can you find about Edwards to blast ? I mean if you're a republican ? 'He's a lawyer' is about it.

[Cornus]

71. Clark CAN and WILL be nominated

I agree with you about Dean and Kucinich, but IMHO Clark can and will be nominated and will then be elected as our next president.

[arewethereyet]

74. I'd have to say there is a nomination scenario

but his chances of winning are not good. They'll trot out the rest of the Pentagon to slice and dice him. Then they'll have NATO chime in. If he gets the nod things will get quite ugly.

[FrenchieCat]

78. They've already trotted out the pentagon...

and no one had anything to say that made any sense....I have gone through the NYT archives and found only that what Clark was saying was true....a policy disagreement on how to fight the Kosovo war was all there was to Generals Larry, Curly and Moe.

NATO won't have anything to say negative either...they were on his side during the whole Kosovo issues that Clark had with the Republicans in the pantagon. NATO is probably on their knees praying that the Democrats will see the light and will make Clark the candidate to face Bush.

[arewethereyet]

80. I beg to differ

they let out a hint of the crap they have lined up. And that hint was bad. a chairman of the joint chiefs indicating that he had integrity issues is really bad. That comment will be fleshed out and every vet will turn away.

It was a British NATO general that was the other half of the shit sandwich already opened up on him and that was unsolicited.

Forget the NYT. We'll be seeing the Pentagon dossier.

Don't say you were not warned.

[Tom Rinaldo]

77. Whether or not Clark can be nominated

That will depend a lot on the actions and non actions of people like those here at DU who recently are being drawn both to his message and to Clark as the messenger best able to take on Bush. If growing respect for Clark translates into... just growing respect for Clark, he doesn't have a very good chance. If on the other hand, that respect translates into active support for Clark's campaign, right now, he has plenty of time for momentum to grow, gathering further attention to his canidacy, leading to further momentum... It's put up or shut up time people. If you think Clark will be best for our nation and/or you believe he is the one best able to take on and defeat Bush in 2004, do something about it. Donate, volunteer, recruit new supporters. Not here at DU, but out there where the elections will be happening. We all know the ropes.

Clark can win the nomination, but he won't if those who believe in him don't mobilize while there still is time to make a difference. Clark needs to do well in fundraising this quarter, the last before the primaries start. He needs to finish a respectable third in NH, and he needs to parlay that into some wins the week after, as suporters of Kerry, Edwards, Gephardt, and even Lieberman and Sharpton start turning to Clark as one of the only two or three viable candidates left in the field. These are achievable goals.

[Zynx]

76. Grrrrr....Stop the pessimism.

I am sick and tired of us preaching the gloom and doom of our own party. We have atleast five candidates who are able to fit into the right mold to beat Bush. The key ingridient is our belief in the ability that he can be beat. His poll numbers aren't that good and he is a lousy campaigner. He can be beat.

[RetroLounge]

82. This is sarcasm...

if half of what I read here is true...