This Deanie Asks: Could Wesley Clark Be the Dems Answer to Ronald Reagan?

[David Zephyr]

I am going to just say it now and get it over with: Wesley Clark may just turn out to be the Democrats’ answer to Ronald Reagan when it comes to popularity with the American People. For years, Reagan drove Democrats and leftists nuts with an affability and sociability that could charm even his greatest detractors.

Of my many thoughts and reflections after this week’s Iowa Debate between the Democratic Presidential Candidates, I was left with a single, yet overriding impression after the dust had settled: General Kanne Wesley Clark has that special quality that many of us on the left have ridiculed for years: Charisma.

Yeah, that’s right. Wesley Clark is charismatic. He has what we call out here in Hollywood a very high “Q Factor”. What’s a Q Factor? In Tinseltown, a celebrity’s Q factor is a yardstick of how likable an entertainer or actor is with the general public.

Recently, former President Bill Clinton said that the Democratic Party had only two stars, Hillary Clinton and Wesley Clark. Could it be that Bill Clinton --- hardly a fellow anyone would call charisma-challenged --- was not mischievously advocating a run by Hillary in 2004 after all (as he was accused of doing when he made the statement), but rather making a simple statement of what he felt to be true? That Wesley Clark has real “Star Power”.

I don’t know why I had not recognized it until the Debate and perhaps it’s because I, like many here at the DU, am so issue oriented that I couldn’t see the forest for the trees. But I saw it clearly on that stage in Iowa. Clark was connecting in many, many subtle, yet important psychic dimensions with both the local and televised audience. His appeal is broad and deep. And make no mistake, my fellow Democrats, General Clark’s appeal is frightening to the sorry Chickenhawks that are currently running our country.

Perhaps even more noteworthy, Monday night, Wesley Clark demonstrated on a stage in De Moines that he wields one of the most lethal talents any politician can ever hope for which is the ability to break down and communicate complex and even unpopular positions in a straightforward and engaging manner. And there is a refreshing, but subverting quality when Clark speaks; he does not sound like a politician and he doesn’t talk down to people.

Clark speaks in easy to understand sentences and he does so with power. In just seconds, Clark turns the current conventional wisdom that the Bush Administration has made America secure upside down with an unassailable assertion that the White House’s “sideshow” in Iraq diverted the West from rounding up Osama bin Laden thereby making the U.S. less secure. Clark effortlessly recasts the narrow culturally polarizing subject of gay and lesbian unions into a far larger context of America’s sense of fairness and tolerance, thereby appealing to the better nature of our citizenry.

I have for years argued with Danny, my handyman, a young Republican Mormon, when he has come to do odd chores around my home. His longtime political hero was --- you guessed it --- Ronald Reagan. Well, strap on your seat belts, Danny has now discovered the General and is supporting him for President rather than George W. Bush! Was it my years of brilliant left-wing fact slinging that won him over? I wish I could say it was so, but when I asked Danny why he had thrown away all his former convictions to support Wesley Clark, a Democrat, he answered with the following: “I really can’t explain it. I just like him and I trust him.”

So here’s a Dean supporter who had once advocated Clark as a VP choice for the good man from Vermont now thinking, perhaps it should the other way around.

Why? I really can’t explain it. I just like him.

David Zephyr

[DoveTurnedHawk]

1. David, You've Really Expressed It So Beautifully Here

I can't compliment you enough. It's EXACTLY how I feel. EXACTLY, to the point of eerieness. You've done it so much better than I ever could have tried.

:yourock:

:toast:

DTH

[Kahuna]

2. Don't apologize, David. Clark has warmth and charisma...

there's no doubt about that. He also has humanity and real class. We can make him the greatest president to come down the pike in a long time. He is running for us, not himself. He will be our subject. Not the other way around. That's why we Clarkies love him. He's putting himself out there for us.

[billbuckhead]

3. I bet his ""Q"" factor is even higher in the south.

Clark is the honorable way to make the south competitive.

[Kahuna]

5. Some clown sitting in for Rush a couple of weeks ago..

was ragging about how low Kerry's "Q" rating was. Then he threw in that all the dems have a low "Q" even Clark. I said to myself, this man is a total fool if he expects anybody to believe that Clark has a low Q.

[aquart]

19. We're supposed to choose a president like they cast TV shows?

Can we rethink that, please?

[The Magistrate]

24. What Do You Think Elections Are, Sir?

They are measures of how many people identify with each candidate, and the closer the identification is, the more likely the person will vote.

[britpopper]

117. Exactly...

Appeal to the people and they will vote for you, do we think Bush got any votes for his brains and experiences?

[The Magistrate]

119. Welcome To The Forum, Sir!

"An election differs from a civil war only as the bloodless surrender of a force outnumbered in the field differs from Waterloo."

[DoveTurnedHawk]

25. We Should Choose a President Who Can WIN

Charisma is OBVIOUSLY a relevant factor to consider when choosing a Presidential nominee.

DTH

[Kahuna]

26. You, like many of your brethren...

miss the point. If you didn't get it from David's eloquent essay, nothing I can say would help you to understand.

[The Magistrate]

4. It Is Certainly Possible, Mr. Zephyr

Gen. Clark does have a certain air about him, and these things are more important than issues with the mass of people.

In many cases people feel they really do not know enough about things, and so are not so much voting for a person they agree with, as for a person they trust will do about they would, if they had all the knowledge and know-how themselves.

[HootieMcBoob]

66. exactly

that's why if people voted on issues alone Democrats would control every branch of government rather than Republicans. This is exactly what Michael Moore says all the time, America is much more liberal that it is conservative on the issues. We just have to find the right person to move us in that direction. Reagan did it for the Republicans and for some reason that escapes me a lot of people get the same vibe from W. With General Clark that becomes a possibility for us. He's very appealing. Remember "Reagan Democrats"? Imagine "Clark Republicans"!

[Kahuna]

6. P.S. David. Your PM mailbox is going to be very active...

tonight. :evilgrin:

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

7. Quite possibly

Clark is highly intelligent but able to speak directly and simply. The image he is able to project is just like that slogan they used to use: "The President we were promised as kids."

So far the best thing that Clark has done is to say publically and openly - "It is not unpatriotic to criticize the president during wartime." That has helped America immensely.

It would figure that our Reagan would be 100 times smarter, too.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

8. He's much more than Reagan. Dean is a good man and...

is moderate on most issues and too has the following, but Clark has the "Reagan Factor" locked up. I am a proud supporter of Wes Clark and I hope he get's the nommination. Bush does NOT want to face Clark next year. Yes, he wants Dean so that he can attack us on defence/security issues and most likely, "Bushista" will be successful at tearing apart Dean, I'm sorry to say.

Rethugs, Neo Conmen, and FReepers will wind up with "BIGTIME Doo-Doo" on their faces if they attack Clark's patriotism and yes, the people will see what the Right Wingers are doing. They will see through the spin.

I hope that Clark is the nomminee. He is our best chance at taking our country back next year and with these improving economic numbers, the economy will not be such a Hot-Button issue next year.

:kick: Clark 04'

[bowens43]

32. You putting way too much into the patriotism stuff...

It's not that important to the American people. They know that the republican spin is just spin. What is important is getting a Democrat elected. We don't know that we would have that with Clark. I can't believe so many people fall in step behind this guy who has NO record. A guy who said that he would have been a republican if they would have him, a guy who showered praise on the bushies, a guy who spoke at republican fund raisers, a guy who did a complete about face on the Iraq war issue when he found out being opposed would play better with the base. I won't vote for him. I'll vote third party or stay home if Clark gets the nomination. The more I hear him speak, the more I see him , the more certain I am that he is a charlatan, an opportunist.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

39. Who do you support?

.

[The Magistrate]

59. Oh, Do Be Serious, Mr. Bowens

There are few things that move votes so surely as patriotism and patriotic symbolism; there is nothing more consistently and more disasterously under-rated on the left as a political tool.

The idea that the people see all appeals to patriotism by reactionary politicos as "spin" is nonsense. Such appeals are the chief reason the reactionaries can marshall mass support; if the reactionaries had to count for votes only on those who benefit from their policies, the Republican Party would be as marginal to our political life as the Green Party.

What is important above all else is to defeat the most reactionary elements of our political life, which have usurped control of the government, and must at any cost be driven from it. Any vote for a "third party" candidate is in effect a vote for victory by the reactionaries of the current administration. Those reptiles, Sir, are counting on support like that from radical leftists.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[CWebster]

136. Hitler knew all about the power of nationalism

Such an admirable trait..Guess the Germans didn't notice either. Always a successful game plan, wouldn't you agree?

So any other Democratic party candidate--other than the recently born again Republican, Clark, is equivilant to a third party candidate?

[RandomUser]

139. So now Clark is Hitler?

Please excuse me if I don't agree with you. Of course, you'll then say I'm a bullying Clarkie since I don't believe he's Hitler. :eyes:

[HootieMcBoob]

71. you're wrong

on every point: They don't know it's spin; He has a record; the "would have been a republican if Rove had called" was a joke"; listen to the whole speech from the fundraiser and remember that he spoke at Democratic fundraisers too; he did not do a complete about face on Iraq, you're reciting republican talking points. If anyone is intereted in finding out where Clark stands on things and his very well spelled out position on all of the issues go to his website, listen to his speeches. He's an excellent orator. He's as someone said "the President we were promised when we were kids".

[Jerseycoa]

85. Right

He has a very dry sense of humor. A lot of people don't get it.

[britpopper]

120. Not quite...

Patriotism is still alive and well and it is important to citizens who actually do vote. You think all those cars with the little American flags still driving around don't care enough to actually go to the polls and cast a vote. Wrong...Clark will pull in that "patriotic" citizen and the NO record doesn't seem to bother people much these days. I live in California and for Christ's sake, the most populous state in the union just elected the friggin' Terminator! (Note: I did not vote for him) What's his record? It's all about appeal and likability and Clark obviously has both.
And quite frankly, we should all be supporting whoever the Democrat nominee is, no matter who it may be...the consequences are too great. I am a Clark supporter, but if Dean gets the nomination, I will be a campaigning nut for Dean when he battles Bush, you can count on that!

[CWebster]

135. You see, they don't care about this

they think that all that matters to Democrats and to a certain extent, the Progressive Left, is a desperate desire to oust Bush, so they will vote for ABB even if it is a candidate who panders to the Right.It is the ultimate triangulation, but what happens is, it weakens the Democratic party ultimately because instead of fighting and strengthing their own identity and purpose they succumb to the Right's worldview and use it to compete.

Democrats must stand their own ground as Democrats and fight for their own platform. They must believe what they stand for matters--instead of casting themselves in the garments of the Right.

I will vote for the bearer of the authentic Democratic party torch and should the DLC agenda and packaged product muscle over the grassroots efforts of the Democratic base, then I will leave the party for good, because it will be the final nail in the coffin. Bush will be beaten but the Democratic party will be completely transformed into the moderate Republican party. The coup will be complete, but you will be rejoicing that Bush was beaten....but was he?

[The Magistrate]

156. The Reactionary Right, Sir

Will thank you sincerely for your efforts on their behalf, and greatly appreciate the assistance you have, in your own small way, provided them.

In the primary, you may do anything you damned well please; in the general election, it is your duty to vote for the least reactionary candidate with a chance to win, who will, in all cases, be the nominee of the Democratic Party. Any other course has the practical effect of lending your support to the most reactionary elements of our polity. That you should choose to do this as an expression of leftist zeal is a source of bitter humor, and an indication of profound irresponsibility and self-indulgence on your part. These are things the reactionary right counts on the radical left to display, and cannot succeed without.

[GOPBasher]

9. Excellent post!

I totally agree with you about Clark, and by the way, are you a writer? That was brilliant writing! You should see if they'll post that as an article on the DU frontpage.

[MasonJar]

10. Amazingly, I too have come to this conclusion.

I admire Dean and was sold on him, but Wes Clark has a dynamic quality that says he genuinely cares about the citizens of America. He is so eloquent, but in an assured, unassuming manner. There is little doubt in my mind that if he can capture the nomination, he can make mincemeat of Bush because he really believes that we need to save the country.

[britpopper]

121. That my friends,

says it all...

[Jerseycoa]

11. Gee Whizzzzz

This is certainly big of you. Really big. :loveya:

[bicentennial_baby]

12. Wow, that's excellent

I fully agree with your sentiments, and you expressed them much better than I ever could have. As a Clark supporter, I truly appreciate your willingness to speak your mind about this here at DU. It means a lot, really.

:yourock:

[aquart]

13. Ronald Reagan is a myth. A fiction of mass hysteria.

The real man had Alzheimer's during his administration and didn't always know what he was saying or where he was saying it.

And Clark is going to be our Ronnie? What an insult, both to Clark and all Democrats.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

15. I'm Sorry You SO BADLY Missed the Entire Point of His Post

Ronald Reagan's charm. Not Ronald Reagan. Duh.

DTH

[drfemoe]

73. since when is our 2004

political opponent "Ronald Reagan's charm"???

We are running against a real 'flesh and blood' constitutional hijacker .. not some republican dream candidate ..

Generals are trained extensively in the art of persuasion.
That is a great skill, but not exactly the most important criteria for selecting a major policy maker.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

127. Are You Kidding? Charm, Persuasiveness Are Perhaps THE Most Important

Qualities a politician can have. Provided the politician is on your side, anyway. If the politician is on the other side, then those qualities are downright dangerous.

Clark has the charm of Reagan, which is a high compliment. He doesn't have Reagan's policies or stupidity; on those notes, he's much closer to Clinton, again a high compliment.

And you underestimate Bush at your peril. Low expectations and a whore media helped boost him to the Presidency (that and blatant voter disenfranchisement by his brother in Florida). If we're not careful, if we don't put up the strongest possible candidate, he could very well do it again.

DTH

[HootieMcBoob]

75. Ronald Reagan

is the father of neo-conservatism. there's a reagan airport in Washington, DC! They want to put his freaking face on the the Mount Rushmore! Just look what happened recently with the made for tv movie! You've missed the entire point of the post and don't understand the role Reagan played in the modern conservative movement.

<edit: spelling>

[KittyWampus]

14. Clark Isn't Perfect- But He Sure Has A Moderate Image

and the most leftward positions second only to Kucinich.

Clark is the President you were promised as a kid. :)

[salinen]

20. Clark

has some traits that are powerful. He's a 4-star general, from the south, a relative outsider, and a Rhodes scholer. These qualities make him rise to the top of my short list. He could really influence the south where we have been beat up recently.

[xray s]

16. Wes Clark... Ronald Reagan with a brain.

has a nice ring to it.

[robbedvoter]

128. Raygun with a brain, a heart, a soul and not just a movie hero

SPACE-SAVER
by Michael Crowley
Candidate: Wesley Clark
Category: General Likeability
Grade: A
It's been said that Clark is insufferably arrogant, a man happiest in front of the mirror. So you might think that his lengthy new autobiography, Winning Modern Wars, would take the time to detail one of the most bravely heroic moments of his life.
The episode in question was detailed in a profile of Clark in today's Boston Globe. The Globe's Michael Kranish recounts how Clark responded in 1995 when a French armored personnel carrier, part of a convoy Clark was riding in to Sarajevo, plunged off a mountain road. "Suddenly, shooting broke out, followed by explosions," Kranish writes. "The noise may have been Serbian gunners, or the munitions in the French vehicle, or both." Clark, then a senior general, didn't flinch. "Clark found a rope, tied it around a tree, and rappelled to the burning vehicle," Kranish continues. "'Bring a fire extinguisher!' Clark yelled, according to <richard>Holbrooke's account, but none could be found."
Clark couldn't save any lives--he returned from the ravine to report that the casualties below were "the worst thing you've ever seen." But the point here is not so much Clark's bravery. It's how he treats the incident in his book. As Kranish puts it: "It was one of the most extraordinary, difficult, and dangerous days of Clark's life. Yet in his 479-page autobiography, Clark devotes less than one paragraph to it. In an interview ... Clark explained that Holbrooke had described the event already, and that he had some space constraints in his autobiography."

[Bucky]

17. Slogan if Clark is nominated: "Clark's Q vs Bush's IQ - your choice"

OK, I've amused myself. I think the Reagan comparison is limited. Clark is at heart an intellectual. His similarities run more to Eisenhower, another near-genius-level thinker and organizer who excelled in the controlled environoment of the military, but never quite cracked into the good ol boy inner circles. Clark has done a poorer job of hiding his intellect (people still assume the guy who won World War 2 was a bit slow).

Reagan was all surface, a pretty face used to sell an essentially heartless policy agenda. Bush is more like Reagan, except without the core values. We call him the Chimp, but we never have specified whose style he's aping. He is, of course, trying to be Reagan II, not Bush II. I'm old enough to remember how badly Democrats handled having to joust with Ronald Reagan. I'm certainly hoping we don't continue to make the same errors in opposing the far more dangerous Bush.

[Kahuna]

27. Bucky, you've said a mouth full..

He is, of course, trying to be Reagan II, not Bush II. I'm old enough to remember how badly Democrats handled having to joust with Ronald Reagan. I'm certainly hoping we don't continue to make the same errors in opposing the far more dangerous Bush.

[Cocoa]

18. yes on the charm, no on the Reagan

absolutely agree on Clark having amazing charisma, but there must be a better comparison than Reagan.

Clark is not ideological at all, and the intelligence gap between them is enormous. Reagan was affable for his simplicity, Clark is not simple at all. I listen to Clark to learn things.

There's also the resume. Reagan as far as I know did not accomplish anything.

Clinton might be a better comparison.

[Tatiana]

29. I agree. He's like Clinton, but without the baggage.

Both telegenic, both intellectuals, but have that same knack for looking you in the eye and making you feel like what you are saying matters to them....

Pluses: he's got a military background and lots of foreign policy experience from the get-go

Minuses: not as politically experienced, though he's learning fast

[Jerseycoa]

35. I know

It's hard to swallow. Trust me, I know. But David is talking about people like his Mormon handyman who would never vote for a Bill Clinton. If we are going to swamp the GOP, it's going to be with a candidate the Mormon handymen of the world feel safe following. Clinton had it for us, the right Q factor. Reagan had it for *them* to our peril. GWB is a pale copy of even Reagan, but he's all they've got. If Clark can somehow do it for the country beyond the Dems, well, we do more than kick the bastards out, we level them. We marginalize the right. We truly do take our country back. And it won't be a moment too soon.

[Kahuna]

38. Don't forget congressional coattails!

:7

[Cocoa]

42. the elusive Mormon handyman vote

If we get the soccer moms, the office park dads, and the Mormon handymen, we're all set. :-)

[rumguy]

83. clark/edwards

would do well in all those demographics

[Kahuna]

144. Wait a minute! Et tu Cocoa?

Are you falling for Clark?

[drfemoe]

76. Mormon handyman

is going to pick your candidate?

Not mine .. this is so sad.

[cmd]

147. Well stated, Jerseycoa.

Welcome to DU.

[Jerseycoa]

182. Thank you

Very nice of you to say welcome.

[TomNickell]

55. Compared with *...

Reagan looked like an over-achiever.

Reagan had an actual independent career behind him.

[Pastiche423]

21. No

Reagan was well known long before he ran for president, or even governor.

He was a "hollywood star" for many years and a "military hero". lol The only star clark has is on his uniform. The two have drastically different personalities.

They do have something in common, though, neither knew/knows jack about governing.

[DrBB]

22. Your buddy Danny has it

People say they care about issues, but they don't vote on 'em. They just don't. It doesn't matter that Clark is far to the left of probably most of what this guy Danny thinks he believes in. What matters is that he radiates discipline, integrity, guts, and likeability. Given that, people will support whatever policies he supports because they support him.

It always amazes me that this fundamental fact of politics seems not to have been absorbed by so many DUers, and Dems as a whole. In terms of what really motivates people to vote one way or another (or at all) policies are not unimportant; they're just secondary.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

23. I Cannot Tell You How Many Republican and Independent Voters I Know

Who would back Clark or consider backing Clark.

These are people who typically would NEVER vote for a Democrat, or would only do so rarely.

DTH

[HoosierClarkie]

31. Unfortunately for me my husband is a Repug and...

i think he would vote for Clark!
:toast:
So I am convinced!

[DrBB]

43. You can include my parents in that one

And again, not because of his positions, which are far to the left of my paleo-conservative Pop and mildly conservative Mom. Just that he impresses them as a trustworthy character. They voted for the Chump, but they don't like him and are looking very seriously at Clark.

[britpopper]

123. So true...

I am a police officer in Southern California, and I am probably the only Democrat (life-long) at my station, but the more I tell my co-workers about Clark and turn them on to his website, the more they are sold on his whole package. I have converted several already and that is not hard to do, I got nothing but grief for being a vocal Gore supporter in 2000, but this time around, they are actually listening and realizing how important this election is...Being that most cops are ex-military, Clark appeals to them even more, and being a four-star general commands the respect both from the military side and our law enforcement side.

[_NorCal_D_]

160. I've had similar experiences

Many of my apolitical friends appreciate that Clark was registered as an Independent and has been consistently non-partisan. If Clark could utilize this and tout himself as an outsider, he would win the Independent vote by a landslide.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

165. Exactly

We NEED the middle to vote with us. The people who think we can go it alone, when only a little over 1/3 of this country considers themselves Democrats, are sadly mistaken.

DTH

[HootieMcBoob]

79. You're right

the Democrats are playing by 30 year old rules. the playbook has been entirely rewritten by the Republicans. They learned a long time ago. We have to learn now. Only our accomplishments will be for the benefit of the country and not multi-national corporations.

[_Jumper_]

28. Too much is at stake for us to gamble in 2004

We cannot afford to nominate our 5th or 6th most electable candidate in 2004. If we want to stop Bush, Clark is our best chance of doing it and we ought to nominate him.

[Kahuna]

30. Right. If we nominate the guy the polls show is the least..

likely to win against bush, what does that say about us? We're idiots and we deserve to lose.

[billbuckhead]

36. Wes Clark is the man many Republicans wish they could be,if they weren't..

robots +)

[Gloria]

33. He was on as part of a segment on PBS/Lehrer tonight...sat down

with that awful Ifill...Gosh, he was GREAT!! He gets that little twinkle in his eye going....

The word I have been using the last couple of days is: LIKEABILITY

We are bombarded with the idea that Bush is "likeable." Really??
Well, Clark has this quality in spades...Contrasted to Bush, he seems like a breath of fresh air.

I at one time was leaning Dean, but he began to remind of Bush with his in-your-face temperament. While I admire that, I'm finding that Clark can deliver a good punch, without the tension.

This I like. And I think America would welcome it, too. We've gotten so beat up by Bush....I don't want to feel like I'm getting beat up any more....Clark's appeal is that he converses with people, even in his speeches--this is a quite refreshing style....

[Kahuna]

34. How did it go with Ifill? I know she was probably..

snide with him. How did he handle that?

[Gloria]

41. Ifill was behaving herself....it was a very good exchange...

It was the overall impression that Clark gave that sticks in my mind, rather than the content of what he was talkinga about. Which is sort of what a poster above was talking about.....his overall impression is very "likeable" and approachable.....he is AT EASE WITH HIMSELF.
It also showed him with Vets and a clip from the Breakfast in NH on Tuesday.

[Kat45]

37. I think I'm slowly bringing my parents around to Clark

They are unenrolled voters, but they vote repug all the time, except for some minor local elections. They can't stand Democrats and don't trust them. I went to the Clark rally outside the candidates forum at Fanuiel Hall a few weeks ago, and my parents actually watched it (which they never do) because they knew I was there. I've been talking him up a lot and they've been taking some notice when he's on TV. I think they also like the fact that he's not a "career" Democrat; he just joined the party. My mother actually commented that he "looks Presidential" and my father said he's not as bad as those other Democrats. And believe me, with my parents, that is progress!

I'm hoping I can at least get them to vote for him in the primary, since there is no primary in the repub party. Sometimes I think I'm getting my hopes up, but I think the more they see Clark with his straight talk--and yes, his charisma--the more they'll be inclined to like him, and perhaps vote for him.

[darkstar]

53. What was it about last night's debate?

There seems to be an amazing synchronicity of "ah ha" experiences re: Clark from last nite's debate.

I haven't been around much lateley--worked on a campaign in Louisiana--and I hadn't been following the primary heat up closely. Seen bits and snatches of debates on tv, read the back and forths here, seen the Harball and MTP appearances etc. On whole, heart w/ Sharpton/Kucinich, head w/ Dean, I guess.

But yesterday something about Clark's, er, performance, really impressed me. And it seems I'm not the only one.

Serious question: Why is that? Can closer observers pinpoint something different? In tone? Body language? Positions articulated? More emotive? B/c somebody needs to analyze this and get it to all the candidates. As intersting as the pure Q factor is, there is a pefromative aspect as well, I think. While I'm not as plugged into the details as many of you, I had seen enough of the candidates prior to form impressions of all of them. But yesterday my impression of Clark changed immensly for the better.

And it's not like "OK. He's got my vote." And flame me if you want for being so shallow as to post about "impressions." I simply thought it was me, i.e., I hadn't been paying attention. But based upon last night's chat shows and 24 hours of DU discourse, even for closer observers, it's clear Clark had the both his standard Q *and* some other X factor working.

We should really do our best to figure out what that X factor was. IMO, rather than simply generalized charisma, it is subject to analysis performance analysis. ( Not to detract from the wonderful original post mind you.) It just strikes me as far too many people on the same wavelength today for it to be all Q or Clark fan's laying in wait subterfuge (as no doubt some of you suspect of me.)

All I know is that many of us saw and heard something that created favorable impressions in us yesterday. Oh to have Luntz's real-time focus data....

[Jerseycoa]

72. More than Q

I think David actually said it here:

"Wesley Clark demonstrated on a stage in De Moines that he wields one of the most lethal talents any politician can ever hope for which is the ability to break down and communicate complex and even unpopular positions in a straightforward and engaging manner. And there is a refreshing, but subverting quality when Clark speaks; he does not sound like a politician and he doesn’t talk down to people."

Every single person in this country, no matter the education level or intelligence quotient or cultural mindset, will hear and understand what he is telling them about what has gone wrong with our lives and the urgency with which it all needs fixing.

He frames the political in the personal better than anyone I've seen. Did you see Rock the Vote when he was asked about gays in the military? These are our children. Do we want our children to be happy? Or do we want them to have less than what our society offers every other American?

Or when he was showing the Kosovo picture book to Dan Rather? After Rwanda, he simply could not let more people die. It was his duty not to let more people die.

It's his duty to run for president. It's not about politics for him. It's about service. That's why he fits in nobody else's box.

The thing of it is, Clark is big. Just big, big, big. Abraham Lincoln big. FDR big. With all respect to the other candidates and their supporters, nobody comes close.

[MoonRiver]

74. Yes, yes! It's his DUTY to run!

My God that's what this is all about, and that's why so many are magnetically drawn to General Clark. We KNOW that his agenda is our agenda because he truly, not duplicitously like *, cares for others, particularly the world's innocents.

[darkstar]

86. Hey ...

Thanx for the response. Like I said, I have seen him before. In debates even. But something hit me yesterday. And, I thought, from posts here along the lines of David's, that yesterday was something of a watershed for some reason. His ability to "break down and communicate complex and even unpopular positions in a straightforward and engaging manner" has been with him from the outset, no?


IMHO it just 'feels' to me--in the media and on this board and w/ friends--that Clark has crossed a very important threshold, if not last nite, in the last 72 hours or so.

But I'll accept that maybe I simply hadn't been paying sufficient attention, however, and the effect is entirely subjective.

[HootieMcBoob]

84. this may sound dumb but

one thing that i liked was when he spoke about "spirituality" in America. He refered to it as that, yes, but he also said that he prayed and he said he believed in "the good Lord". That's the thing that jumped out at me -- "The Good Lord". That's what my Grandmother used to say and I think it's a phrase that would resonate with middle america and the south and christians in particular. It's a small thing, I know. But, I think it was significant.

[DemBones DemBones]

129. I picked up on that, too,

when Clark used the phrase "the good Lord." Some DUers may object to any candidate mentioning religion but we are LOSING votes because voters associate the GOP, not Dems, with religion. There are many people who want "a good Christian" in the White House. That's exactly why they voted for George W., because he has sold himself as "a good Christian."

I can't picture those words coming out of many of the candidate's mouths. Sharpton, Edwards, possibly Gephardt. I think Dennis Kucinich is absolutely the best on issues and I know he is a very spiritual person, but I don't think he'd ever talk about his faith in terms that would resonate with a Southern Protestant.

[retyred]

40. Rock On David!!!!!!!!!

retyred in fla
“good night paul, wherever you are”
read the book

[FrenchieCat]

44. I support Clark

Because he is the best that we've got. And to end the nightmare that we are currently experiencing, we need to put our best out there. Since the media and the pentagon twerps don't like Clark, that's why I know that he's a good man....and will make a fine President of the entire United States.

WELCOME TO THE WES WING!

[MoonRiver]

45. Clark has Q on steroids!

Reagan doesn't hold a candle to this magnificant man. If we have the sense to choose General Clark as our nominee, Dems will have everything it takes to landslide back into the White House.

[KittyWampus]

49. We Need A Landslide So Electronic Voter Fraud Won't Work

We need someone who can poll consistently 5% above MOE so there's no "too close to call" bullsh*t.

[MoonRiver]

51. I agree. I still don't know exactly what percentage of precincts

across the country use these machines. I used to think that absentee voting was the answer, but apparently those votes are just entered into some electronic machine and the ballots are then permanently sealed. :(

[DemBones DemBones]

130. AMEN to that! We need a landslide in 2004. n/t

[_NorCal_D_]

161. Good point.

The last thing I want to see is election 2000 redux. :(

[Eloriel]

46. David

From the bottom of my heart, I can't tell you how stunned and disappointed I am. Truly. No, NOT that you may not be a "Deanie" any more, not at all.

Rther, that you've been snookered by an amazingly smooth and, yes, charismatic package.

I implore you to look very, very carefully into his background. I think you'll be stunned too.

Eloriel

[DoveTurnedHawk]

47. Waah!

I had a feeling you'd be along here sooner or later to express your deep "disappointment."

:cry:

:nopity:

David is fair-minded and gracious, and he's also discerning and intelligent. I should know, as I've had the pleasure of meeting him in person. It's breathtakingly insulting and condescending for you to claim that he's been snookered.

DTH

[The Magistrate]

64. The Complaint, My Friend

Is but more proof of the power of the draw. Gen. Clark can appeal to a tremendous range of people: he is a fighter, a damned good one, and people like that.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[DoveTurnedHawk]

105. Exactly Right, as Usual, Sir

Good to see you posting again, my friend. :-)

DTH

[Eloriel]

82. That's precisely why I voiced my concern

David is fair-minded and gracious, and he's also discerning and intelligent. I should know, as I've had the pleasure of meeting him in person. It's breathtakingly insulting and condescending for you to claim that he's been snookered.

As for whether that's insulting and condescending, that's for David to determine. IF David has spent some time actually looking at some of Clark's background, and has reconciled what I consider to be the unreconcileable, then what can I say? But if he's going on what he sees alone -- and only he at this point knows whether or not that's what he's doing -- then he's judging the book by its cover. Most people with the wisdom David usually expresses want to be guilty of that.

Eloriel

[DoveTurnedHawk]

102. Oh, Well That's MUCH Better, Then

:eyes:

DTH

[Kahuna]

97. Please don't help hatas destroy an otherwise beautiful..

moment on DU.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

103. Sorry About That

I get kinda pissed off when someone I know and like is condescended to simply for posting a cogent, gracious and beautiful post.

DTH

[mjv135]

62. Skeletons?

If you look far enough back in anyones past you'll find skeletons. But I think they'll (neocons) will have far less to work with with Clark. And have a harder time making it stick. I agree about a "Q" factor. I was brutally awakened to that fact in the 3 debates between Gore and GWB, Gore wiped the floor with that low brow. I really thought it was all over, 'till the next day when everyone was talking about that "arrogant' Gore beating up on that poor guy with the boyish grin. I thought my head would explode. Bush became president after telling everyone he wanted to drill in the Arctic, telling everyone that he didn't like the Kyoto agreements, after showing everyone that he couldn't say anything over two syllables. He called a reporter an asshole on national T.V. for gods sake! Don't tell me a "Q" factor doesn't matter.

[jayson23]

146. throwaway lines

I'm not a fan of throwaway lines like "I implore you to look very, very carefully into his background."

What sort of things are you concerned about? Would you be willing to hold Howard Angry Dean to the same light? There are some things in his background that I'm not too comfortable with (skiing when he could have been in Vietnam, his quote that "makes me uncomfortable, the same as anybody else," his desire to raise the retirement age to 70...) but I'm looking for what kind of a President a candidate will be, not whether I can find a zinger in their past.

This election is about putting a Democrat in the White House, averting the disaster of letting Bush & Co. continue to rape our natural resources and pollute our air, stopping our nations slide into the mud on the world stage, and keeping Bush from putting more conservative judges on the circuit courts or the Supreme Court.

Wesley Clark is the President we were promised as kids. Charismatic, intellectual, progressive, and the man that can lead this nation as a whole. I don't want another polarizing figure in the White House. I don't want another four years of the left and right slinging grenades at each other. Let's end the trench warfare that has taken over our political scene and move forward.

[jayson23]

149. correction

I left out a bit in my post - I meant to say that Howard Angry Dean's quote was "Gay marriage makes me uncomfortable, the same as anybody else."

[NNN0LHI]

48. Here is the deal

My best friends due to my volunteering for Military Affiliate Radio Services or MARS for short are either active or retired military people. They want to vote for someone other than Bush real bad next year. But none of them would even think of voting for a candidate that they considered to be soft on national security. Most have said that they would vote for Kerry or Clark in a New York minute because of their military backgrounds and combat experience, even though they normally vote Republican. But they would bite the bullet and vote for Bush if he was going up against anyone who they considered soft on national security. This is a fact. Just something to think about. Take it for what it is worth.

Don

Edited for spelling...as usual

[in_cog_ni_to]

50. David, I couldn't agree more!

What an excellent post. You described Clark to a tee. He will be an awesome president! We are SO lucky to have him running for President at this most important time in our history. We actually need a Wes Clark in 2004 and out of a sense of obligation to save our country from the Bush regime, he chose to run for US. He's doing it for us and I am so grateful for it.

Thank You for the great post!

:yourock:

[Ksec]

52. Great post David and I agree

That was well done David.

[Bundbuster]

54. Yes - Clark is the neocons' worst nightmare

I was already a supporter before meeting Wes "up close" at a Denver rally, well aware of his Q factor and ability to connect with sincerity. But what I experienced there with a crowd of 800 was the most uplifting, hopeful hour since selectiontheft 2000. No one in DU could possibly loathe the current cretin squatter and his manifest destiny corporate whores more than I. Every value which I've held for 56 years as an American has been relentlessly assaulted with arrogance and contempt by these bastards - every day under their rule has been an obscenity, and I could not live through another 4 years of it. I now exist to celebrate the day when all of humanity is delivered from this evil, and I will dedicate all energies toward that goal.

What I saw in that hour with Wes Clark was the man who can finally and decisively unite not only our party, but the country, and send the thieving fearmongers from our halls of power back to their gated mansions, to silently and self-righteously wonder how America woke up to hope. Wes Clark comes to you with humility, confidence, humor, compassion, warmth, vision, intelligence, and candor. Yes, he is impressive on TV, but his "Q" factor, appeal, and ability to inspire in person is absolutely unique. I've seen them all since the 1950's, and I cannot even draw a comparison for you, especially in the framework of this election's urgency. I want more than just President Wesley Clark - I want all the coat tails he will surely bring. I want a Democratic Congress with him to help return our stolen nation and planet to us. I urge you all to open your most objective minds - remembering what's at stake here - and consider the power, hope, and joy of a Wes Clark Presidency.

[Kahuna]

96. You people are awesome. Another great post. Is this...

a revival meeting? It seems that some kind of spirit is moving amongst us all. This is a beautiful and special moment for me on DU. To be able to read so many deep, thoughtful and well reasoned posts is a rare treat.

[britpopper]

124. Since I'm relatively new...

I consider myself spoiled to experience all these deep, understanding posts already, but I do believe like some have said that it appears that since the last debate, people are starting to truly understand the importance of 2004 and who we actually can nominate to defeat the evil Bush regime. I guess it is a revival of a sort, but let's keep this energy going!!! Let's roll!!!

[robbedvoter]

56. here's a view of him I like (from a GQ article):

"Some say he's a nobody general who will fade once the real Democrats get a good look at him.
Maybe, but I'll tell you what I think.  He's running for president, and he is not used to losing.  And if he gets the nomination, he'll go up and down this country and beat on President Bush like a drum.  He'll do 2,000 yards every morning; he'll rappel down any cliff he needs to; he will shake off any small-arms fire as if it were a swarm of gnats.  And he'll get better at the game each and every day.
He hates to lose.  And he doesn't run from fights.
And even if he's never played the game, he's never a beginner at anything.
Dismissed."

[MoonRiver]

58. AND, he knows how high the stakes are.

He, like we, simply cannot lose.

[economic justice]

57. wow. Very good...

We've had some problems and now I feel really bad. Your post was as human and heartfelt as any I've read. I decided on Clark earlier this week shortly after a TV appearance of his. While I don't agree with Clark on everything, I have decided to go with him for the very reason that you stated so well. I could have never found the words. What a great post.

[Kahuna]

95. Clark is a work in progress. The best thing about him is..

his desire to learn and his desire to do the right thing. I wish you could all go to the campaign website and enter some words of encouragement that the general can read. He would really appreciate it.

[Tom Rinaldo]

60. The Emperors New Flight Suit.

Your post was heartfelt and wonderful.

I myself had been looking for a Democratic candidate who would finally be able to reframe the dynamics of all of the public debates that the Republicans have managed to ever so finely script in their favor over the years since Reagan came to power. The Republicans have in essence taken out patent pending notices on most of the key American buzz words, and images, in our idealized collective consciousness, much as corporations have in recent year laid legal claime on everyday expressions (like "fair and Balenced"!) Suddenly Republicans seemed to "own" them, and the rest of us were only "Renters".

Either Democrats had to find a narrow and shrill vocabulary from the fringes of public discourse to lay claim to for their own, or they had to "borrow" Republican identified terminology. Republicans had seized the middle ground, the high ground always sought after in military campaigns, the strategic vantage point over America's identidy. You know, I still remember how it felt when I lost my share of ownership in the American Flag during the protests against the Viet Nam War. It wasn't immediate, but the more those I opposed clung to it, the less I could relate to that flag, and before I realized it I had for all practical purposes surrendered it. I have felt awkward and conflicted around our flag ever since then, and somewhat distrustful of those who didn't feel as conflicted as I do.

Decency, values, patriotism, valor, strength, faith, families, all of these terms and concepts increasingly have taken on a Republican slant. Even the colors, Red, White, and Blue used in proximimity to each other. One can almost see the copywrite syumbol next to each word; "Used with the expressed consent of the Republican National Committee". Democrats using those terms and symbols inevitably sounded "Republican Light". Sometimes of course they were, but other times they just looked like poor gringos trying to speak spanish and butchering the language, how embarrassing.

Periodically I would half heartedly protest to my radical friends that this country has much to be ashamed of true, but much to be proud of also. I would cite our revolutionary history, I would point out our multi cultural traditions, and more than likely I would be reminded in turn of the betrayals of our Revolutionary traditions, and the failings of our multi cultural society. While all the while the Republicans banashed all doubt: This is the greatest country on Earth. Love it or leave it.

Bill Clinton was a brilliant man, and a brilliant politician, with a warm outgoing personality. But I think he won because, yes the economy sucked at the time and that always helps the insurgents, but mostly because the Republicans let down their guard with Bush I. They were cocky after Dessert Storm. They indulged themselves in intra mural blood baths, and weren't pounding all the scripted notes in unison. They learned a lot from that loss and they went out and recruited the best front man money could buy them in Bush the Junior, the designated "compassionate conservative". Today's Republican Party (the predominate machine, leaving out a few decent mavericks from this overall characterization) have roots in 1984 the year, and 1984 the book. They have perfected New Speak. War is Peace. Division is Unity. Greed is Charity.

How can we win the public debate when the very language that must be used has been thoroughly rigged agaisnt us? I ultimately came to believe we might still win with Wes Clark. He is a Republican's worse nightmare, the genuine item, the embodiment of their own rhetoric, and suddenly the King is shown to be a pretender. It is the story of the Emperors new flight suit.

All I needed to be convinced to back Wes Clark this year was a close look at him as a man, is he sincere or is he a sham, that's what I wanted to know. I admit it, specific policies were less important to me for this election than in any other I can remember. Yeah I still care about policies, I have some bottom line litmus test issues, and Clark passes easily. I've studied Clark, I've looked at his career. I've met Clark, and I personally like and respect Clark. But what it keeps coming back to for me, the image that keeps coming up is this. When Bush and Clark finally stand across from each other in those Debates prior to the 2004 election, the Emporer will be naked for the world to see.

[The Magistrate]

65. Well Said, Mr. Rinaldo!

Well said indeed, Sir!

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[darkstar]

68. Really great post, TR!

Pleasure to read it and learn a bit about you in the process.

:toast:

[HootieMcBoob]

89. Mr. Rinaldo

That was absolutely beautiful.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

104. Again, You Are Such a Welcome Addition to This Board

Thank you for your excellent thoughts.

DTH

[Tatiana]

115. You're such a wonderfully articulate writer.

I enjoy reading every single one of your posts, this one especially.

[britpopper]

126. You, my friend...

Are the King! That rocks!!

[Tom Rinaldo]

154. Thank you all. But...

Good writing always rides on a wave of passion and that's what this thread is providing all of us. It taps into something deep to read what is being said here, which is exactly what the Clark campaign has done for me and for an ever increasing number of others. It resonates, which is a profound physical phenomena; something being called to life, something intuitively responding. I was first drawn to Clark in early to mid summer. I wasn't "responding" yet at that point, I was searching. Looking for a candidate who could neurtalize some of the traditional Republican advantages. I was backing Dean, I respected Dean (still do), I thought I would settle in with Dean, but intellectually I knew someone like Clark had advantages to bring to the table that no other Democrat had, so I wanted to check him out further.

At that point it was a dispassionate political exercise. I did a google search, tracked down the Draft Clark movement, and read up on Clark's positions. I was pleased, but it was still an intellectual exercise for me. Then I looked at the running blog of letters that were constantly being written to Clark, urging him to run, that were being written to him from all over the country. I was frequently moved to tears, it was that profound an experience for me. That's when I "got it", the theme of this thread. I was hooked for days, reading the elequent often gut wrenching appeals to Clark to run. I saw our future leader right there, through the responses he elicited from those who had come in contact with him.

So many wrote of their own defining moment, when they themselves "got it", when they recognized who Clark was, what motivated his life, and the way Clark spoke to both their concerns and ideals. Often the same letters brought up that second "aha" which almost always followed directly on the heels of the first, Clark was maybe to only one who could take their message and carry it to victory against the Republican machine. People were begging Clark to run. Democrats, Republicans, Independents, veterens, anti war activists, all across the board. It was very powerful stuff, I started copying the letters and emailing them to friends. It was very much like this thread. Incredibly personal and thoughtful writing, and emotional too. That's when I signed on for Clark. When I first met him my brief words to him were "Sir, thank you for answering the call." He held my hand firmly for a full two or three seconds (no lie), looked me in the eye and said "Thank You" back. Doesn't sound like much on paper I know, but he was fully in that moment, he wasn't looking for the next hand to grab.

[_NorCal_D_]

162. Outstanding!

You are quite the writer Tom! B-)

[rumguy]

170. wow I don't know who you are but what you say is brilliant

in fact, I'm going to copy it and keep it...

[andym]

61. Like Reagan he can cause a realignment

I agree completely with the poster. Reagan won because of his optimistic persona (and initially because of an anti-Jimmy Carter vote),
not his right-wing policies. The country took a very hard turn to the right because of his election, and his influence on national politics. He was able to change things so much because he was perceived as a moderate by much of the country: he made wacky right-wing beliefs palatable to many who would have been upset if they realized the consequences of these beliefs!


In the same way, Wes Clark has his own charisma and warmth which could win the general election. Because his own beliefs are mostly progressive, and because he will be perceived a moderate, he could change both the policies and the way people think about them without energizing the normal opposition to change. And he could begin to break the Republican coalition, taking back the pro-security and pro-patriotism people and to some extent the financial conservatives. That would definitely tilt politics back towards the left for some time.

[HootieMcBoob]

63. Yes, Thank You

That is what I've been trying to say for months. You've hit the nail on the head. I keep saying that he's capable of doing a "Nixon to China" thing. But you've articulated it well. This is my main reason for supporting him at at this time. I think Dean is great and the fact that he would probably make big changes in the party is very appealing but Clark brings so many things to the table that I have to be in his corner right now. Thank you for spelling it out so clearly.

[MoonRiver]

67. Wow! I have rarely seen such brilliant extemporaneous posts as

those on this thread, including and especially, David's. What all this shows is how deep and well thought out is Clark's support among activists. I am incredibly impressed with such passionate and intellectually sound support of General Clark.

I and my husband are so pumped up to fight for General Clark, and all he stands for!!

[Kahuna]

98. This is a great thread, isn't it? It's like a spiritual awakening..

It's surreal.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

107. Seriously, This Is Probably the Best Thread I Can Remember

Read the responses, the intelligent, positive responses.

I read this thread and I feel HOPE again for our party and much more importantly our COUNTRY. And that's something I haven't felt very much since Bush took office.

DTH

[NNN0LHI]

69. This thread is the Republican wing nuts worst nightmare come true n/t

[drfemoe]

70. I agree Clark made a great showing

but .. why do the dems need an "answer to Ronald Reagan"?

We aren't running against Reagan. I'm glad your friend likes Clark, but I can't go along with switching the ticket on this bit of news.

[andym]

78. Why do we need a Democratic "Reagan"?

To undo Reagan's damage in moving the country
to the right. I think he will initiate a leftword movement,
and make liberalism patriotic again in American popular culture.
Please see my post #61.

Real change sometimes comes through painful revolution, but mostly comes
through evolution when most don't even realize it's happening.
Clark will be an agent for progressive change, and enough of the opposition to such change will be pacified so that it can actually occur. That's what happened in the 80s in the rightward direction, and I hope it will happen in the progressive direction in the 00s.

[MoonRiver]

81. It's just a metaphor, relating to Clark's charisma, which is huge.

But more important is what had been discussed, in the original and subsequent messages, about how deeply substantive Clark's policy messages are to Dems. Clark can win in 2004, and he will lead our country back to progressive values and solid international relationships. Think FDR.

[Kahuna]

93. You got it, andym! We have to beat them at their own game.

If we all get behind Clark, we can rock their world.

[Julien Sorel]

91. I can't tell you how wrong you are.

First, because we are running against Ronald Reagan. Bush is a near-idiot. So was Reagan. Bush relied on his advisors for everything. So did Reagan. Bush's primary strength was his 'likeability.' So was Reagan's. Bush's goal is to shrink the government until it's as small as possible. So was Reagan's. Bush ran up huge deficits. So did Reagan. Bush is going to run his campaign on optimism and national security. So did Reagan. It's actually fairly obvious, in fact, that Rove has consciously positioned Bush so that he can run as Reagan II in 2004. A couple of months ago, I posted two ads from Reagan's 1984 campaign, titled 'Morning In America,' and 'The Bear.' I fully expect Bush to run ads very similar in theme, when he isn't simply trying to ruin his opponent with negative ads.


Second, we aren't just running against a person, but a movement. Reagan's movement. People like Bush are sucking down the bitter dregs of Reagan's 'revolution.' The whole slash taxes, the government is the enemy, let's go back to the 50s, when Ike was in, and patriotism was cool stuff was a mantle Reagan picked up from Goldwater, and this Bush has picked it up and put it on. The real problem Democrats have now, in my view, is that we don't have an effective counter to it. The whole counter-culture movement is dead, few people are particularly angry about injustice (which is what fueled the 60s), people just want to feel safe, and good about themselves and their country. Reagan offered that, this Bush tries to, in his own inept way. Who on the Democratic side offers a counter? Because that's the meta message of Reaganism, and it's powerful: America is blessed and good, and you are blessed and good because you are an American; it doesn't matter where you are on the economic ladder. It still resonates; look at the poor whites who vote Republican in droves. If we can't either find a good meta-message of our own, or co-opt theirs, we lose, not just now, but tomorrow, not just the presidency, but the congress. 'I'm angry' isn't a meta message: it's a cry for therapy.

Clark understands this. Watch his campaign, the positive tone, his absolute refusal to allow his patriotism to be challenged in the slightest, and recently, him putting himself forward as a strong, re-assuring leader. He's co-opting their message to a certain extent, while spinning it with a Democratic flavor -- dissent, equal opportunity, and so on. It might not work in a general election, because these 're'-election campaigns are often simply referendums on the incumbent, but Clark offers us a chance to play for higher stakes than winning or losing just the election. Want your country back? Start with a message that other people will buy into, and if you can't find one of your own, take the other guy's and do it better. Or else get used to losing.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

106. Fantastic Post

Spot on, BB!

DTH

[The Magistrate]

111. Well Said, Mr. Bunter!

Good to see the Owl in such excellent form....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[cally]

77. Thanks, David

That is why I support him. I like him and trust him. Yeah, I've done my homework and analyzed his positions and statements and I do believe he has the policies that will work. What it comes down to is that I think he has the integrity, knowledge, and strength to fight for progressive ideals. I believe he is running to protect this democracy. I doubt he agrees with some of what I say but he will fight for my right to say it. He will listen to all of us. He is a true Patriot and wants to help us all.

Welcome to the club.

Well, it's Friday night. He is also very handsome with a killer smile. :-)

[kerry-is-my-prez]

80. wow- great post!

I was won over about 2 months ago and am now working on the campaign. Before Clark came along I had alternated between Dean and Kerry.

I'd like to see a Clark/Dean ticket.

[zeemike]

87. Why not a democratic Bush?

That would be a winner for sure. Maybe we could draft Jeb or Neil?

[Kahuna]

92. Jeb will become president if bush wins in 2004.

Scary thought, huh? While you may have been jesting that is exactly the script the repubs are working on.

[zeemike]

94. Actually I was being sarcastic.

Trying to point out that you are worshiping at the Repug alter. As if they are superior or have some superior people that we must emulate.

[MIMStigator]

88. Clark's Q factor so high they should call him Qlark.

Awesome post

[DoveTurnedHawk]

108. LOL!

That really made me laugh for some reason. :-)

DTH

[_NorCal_D_]

164. ROFLAMO!

Hmmm How would you pronounce that? :shrug: B-)

[usregimechange]

90. Current Dean Meetup Host and I agree!

[artr2]

99. NO

nt

[FrenchieCat]

100. But yes....it is true...

That Q is hard to resist.....

[Robin Hood]

101. I've been seeing a Clark/Dean ticket since Clark announced.

It will either be Clark/Dean or Clark/Whomever running for president and kicking Bush's butt out of office in '04. Despite his little tech blunder the other day, and I am an out sourced techie.

[fabius]

109. Clark did an excellent job Monday.

IMO.

I was more impressed than I've been before, he's hitting his stride.

This from a Dean supporter.

Honestly I feel good when any of our candidates does well.

[Dr Satan]

110. The comparison to Raygun is valid.

Both are mass murderers.
Both are corporatist deregulaters.
Both are puppets of the Defense industry.
Both are nationalists.
Both are worshipped as a cult.
Both have egos bigger than the planet.
Both are completely inept at policy.
Both are masters at perception over substance.
Most of all, they both are repulsive politicians.

But hey, since everyone at DU prefers an empty suit then you deserve what you get. I'll be saying I told you so.

[The Magistrate]

112. Who Has No Enemies Has No Friends, Sir

Your evident desire to see the defeat of the Democratic Party in the upcoming Presidential contest is noted, and shall be remembered.

The reactionary reptiles of the current administration are counting on such support from the radical left; they need every bit of help they can get, and self-defeating purists can provide them a great deal of help, while feeling clean and noble about themselves and their forlorn hopes as they do so: a sort of win-win situation, eh?

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Mattforclark]

113. Don't you just hate

Those repulsive politicians who are almost simultaneously bashed for being 'politicians' and having no political experience?

"Both are mass murderers."

Au contraire, Clark is the opposite.

"Both are corporatist deregulaters."

I don't see it.

"Both are puppets of the Defense industry."

Au contraire, Clark can knows enough to be the puppeteer of the defense budget.

"Both are nationalists."

In the sense that Clark wants to get rid of Bush and do what's right for America, I would agree that he is a nationalist. He's not a nationalist in the jingoistic sense of the word.

"Both are worshipped as a cult."

He's a great guy, but I can personally attest that I have never worshipped him.

"Both have egos bigger than the planet."

I guess Clark's ego is so big that he spent one entire paragraph discussing how he rappeled down a mountainside to try and rescue French soldiers from a burning APC in his ~200 page book.

"Both are completely inept at policy."

That must be why I like so many Clark's policy ideas so much.

"Both are masters at perception over substance."

Clark can indeed, like Reagan, put up a moderate front while supporting policies that appeal to the base.

"Most of all, they both are repulsive politicians."

What an amazing insight. Have you considered applying for a job as a professional character analyst? Better be quick before all the positions are outsourced to India and you are left with nowhere to work but McDonalds.

[CWebster]

138. Tell it like it is

but what do they know with their goosestepping and bullying of anyone who doesn't demonstrate proper allegiance to the new Reagan.

[fujiyama]

114. Clark is likable

My dad and I have been discussing the primary process the entire time and we've both liked Clark.

My family is liberal, and while I would say we've liked Kerry, especially my mom, we've noticed that he has a tendancy to not get to the point quickly. I myself believe he would make the best president of all the candidates running, being that he has the experience in government and is familiar and has a great liberal record in most important issues like the environment, economic policy, etc. I also think his experience in such commitees as intelligence, make him especially attractive as a candidate. Still I've noticed a tendancy to kinda lose a person's attention. He seems to think in complex terms, which I find great, but I wonder if that would win many people over.

I myself have liked Clark since I started seeing him talk on CNN when the war broke out. He always gave a rational, reasonable analysis of the war, often times critical of the administration. It was especially rare at that time to see that sort of thing.

However, I was really impressed with him only after his appearance on Bill Maher's show where he gave a clear defense of liberalism, rather than try to avoid being called one. It was especially great to see that.

It's quite clear that he is greatest threat to Bush. Definetely of all of the candidates, this would give Rove the most trouble.

I especially believe he would be competetive in states such as WV, WI, IA, MN, NM PA, OH, AR, and LA. It is especially crucial for the candidate to be competetive in the great lakes area (most states in this region were extremely close), PA, and SOME southern states, not to mention southwestern states like AR and NV (we may be able to win atleast one of the two states if we play it right).

Clark could almost definetely win most, if not all of the states Gore did, and pick up a few more of those mentioned above. I honestly have a tough time believing anyone else can do it.

[Kahuna]

158. More than Likeable. Clark is loveable.

Now that's some kick-ass Q factor.

[britpopper]

116. Wow! Great conclusion, David!

I second the feeling that that is indeed the way he comes across to the public, honest, sincere and a regular guy, well as regular as a four-star general can be. As much as I disliked Reagan, you could genuinely understand why he appealed to the voters, he was like your grandpa, not necessarily bright but likable and non-threatening. Not that looks, personality and charisma should be the most important things to get elected, it's hard denying that in this day and age it is not important. Look at JFK and Nixon in the televised debates. Those clearly sent JFK over the top and Clark can use these attributes to his advantage in getting what is a dynamic plan for America out to the voters. We all need to stop belittling other Dem supporters and really think as to who we want going toe to toe with Georgie W in a debate, I find it hard to beleive that non-Clark supporters can not agree that Clark would be the best suited to make the little confused chimp look even dumber than he really is...When the Dean and Clark supporters really think about it, a Clark/Dean ticket is the best option we have to take out Bush, like it or not...

GO WES!!!

[VolcanoJen]

118. I'd like to pull up a pew at your revival meeting!

What an amazing, illuminating thread. David, thank you for your heartfelt and eloquent words. It's really just so cool that you've decided to support Clark.

I also wanted to say how great it is to see The Magistrate posting again... :-)

- Jennifer

[The Magistrate]

122. Still Generally At My Stall Down In Israel v. Palestine, Ma'am

Things have grown a little quiet down there, so a visit up here to the candidate wars seemed on order if a good scrap was to be found. Imagine my surprise to come upon this instead....

Happy hunting, Ma'am!

[saoirse]

125. Charisma AND substance

It's easy to be impressed by Clark's "Q Factor," but it's good to remember that this is a Rhodes Scholar who graduated first in his class at West Point. In other words, he's got serious smarts. Something nobody - even his biggest fans - would accuse the Gipper of.

And he fought in and was nearly killed serving his country in a highly unpopular war - at the same time the chickenhawks in the current maladministration were hiding under the bed looking for draft deferements or using daddy's influence to jump the line to get into the Texas Air Guard.

I'm glad to see lots and lots of people energized by the Clark campaign. It was rough going for a while, but it seems to have hit its stride. Clark himself is the biggest antidote to the GOP spin machine, which has been working overtime against him precisely because they're scared shitless of him. And they should be.

[OKNancy]

131. Clark is a Boy Scout

That is my comparison. Not the gay-hating rightwing organization that some think of, but in the best terms of how one perceives life.

Clark is an idealist who thinks about the US in terms of our highest ideals. I think that is a view for many of his generation: To help other people and be a do-gooder.

A Boy Scout picks up litter ( cares about the environment ). A Boy Scout helps little old ladies ( care for those in need ). A Boy Scout salutes the flag ( understands about symbolism )A Boy Scout serves; his community and his country.

Wes Clark believes in our liberal heritage and understands the historical background of what the USA stands for. It's an idealists view, one that he shares with Dennis Kucinich by the way.

The Liberal General. I see nothing contradictory about it.

[NewJeffCT]

143. my concern

My concern about Clark is that he seems to have a lot of good long-term ideas... but, the US is not a patient country and we're always looking for short-term solutions and quick fixes to our problems so the politicians (both Republican & Democrat) can get re-elected.

[DemBones DemBones]

132. Excellent explanation of the Reagan phenomenon, David, and

how Clark can be "our Reagan." I knew, and I suspect your few critics in the thread knew, that you meant that Clark can be a popular president, not that he will declare ketchup a vegetable or cut funds to help the poor. We need a popular president (with coattails!) to reverse the four years of damage done by Bush Baby and the Neo-Cons, and to put the country on a better and safer path.

I continue to think that Dennis Kucinich has the best ideas of any of the candidates but I have been thinking lately that it is unlikely the country will elect anyone without military experience with the current world situation. (Kucinich was unable to serve in the military due to a heart murmur.) Clark and Kerry are our only candidates with military records, both far outshining Bush's record of protecting Texas against the Viet Cong. In those days, our enemies did not come to us. It seems quaint now, doesn't it?

It was clear that Clark did the best in the most recent debate, though I thought it was a better debate for most of them, with Brokaw managing it well. Clark also made a good appearance on Letterman last week.

Someone posted that Clark is nearly as far left as Kucinich (not that that's so terribly far left, of course) and I hope that's the case. He certainly looks like our answer to "Who can beat Bush?"

[jayson23]

152. Great analysis

Those are well considered words, DB. I can certainly understand your support of Kucinich - in a perfect world, where the issues were all that mattered, he'd already be serving his third term in the Senate, or better. When I looked into Kucinich's background, and the way he stood his ground as mayor of Cleveland, it was a real Michael Moore moment for me. I simply respect the guy. He's the kind of politicial Studs Terkel could like.
You're right, he won't be able to get the nomination or the White House, but I think he deserves to be in Washington. I'd like to see Dennis Kucinich as Secretary of the Interior, personally. The anti-James Watt :)

[Donna Zen]

133. Adding to "A Man for All Reasons"

I approached this coming election with the levelest of heads. Wanting to win, needing to win, without losing my liberal soul. My introduction to the idea of Clark was brief and confusing. It was on line with various posters thinking the person under consideration was “Ramsey” not Wesley Clark. The overwhelming sentiment was that we could not win unless we addressed the question of National Security. That was true then; that is true today. Suffice it to say that after digging out the research of Clark’s positions, I was comfortable to support the Draft movement. But Clark proved to be something more than just the boiler-plate issues candidate; he is talking about our Constitution, our very democracy which is at stake. Clark is a big picture thinker and a brilliant one at that. If he is telling us that we are in danger of losing it all, then what has been said many times, in many ways on this forum, is more than the just our ramblings. In Clark’s words: this is about what what kind of country you want to live in. He has also reminded interviewers that democracies have existed before ours, where are they?

After Clark announced his candidacy, I waited to see how he would do on the stump. Wooden candidates, even with good ideas, cannot save our democracy. And then came his first townhall meeting in New Hampshire and I could not believe what I was seeing; I was spellbound. “Q” factor! Even though my legs were cramped, I couldn’t move. I wanted more of this tour de force that encompassed detailed answers and blunt answers. Answers that literally made people weep. I call it Wes 101.

I am still not sure how Clark does what he does, but he does it. His security guard described the scene when Clark left NATO, of all of the staff running into the road and stopping his car. Reading the post, you knew that given the chance, you would have joined them.

There will be no do-overs come next November. We the people have had this gift from no where dropped into our laps. The question that we must now answer is will we accept this candidate, or will we return the package unopened in exchange for a “blue light” special.

This is part of a post from the woman who introduced me to Clark:

I started out as a potential Dean Supporter in 2001 when I was making the argument on message boards that we needed to "look around" and not have a redo of 2000 in 2004. At that time I was trying to drive traffic to Dean's Vermont Governor Site, making an argument for him as an experienced new face.

In the late spring of 2001 I watched Clark on C-Span doing an interview about his book, Waging Modern War. I bought and read the book. Then after 911 when he started doing commentary on CNN I started watching more closely, and became convinced he was potentially a strong candidate because he could take fairly complex ideas, and teach without making it seem like preaching. This is a skill very few politicians have -- and it is the opposite of reciting back to voters the themes from focus groups or the usual Democratic Mantra.

Talking to people in the party -- I came to understand that Clark might be convinced to run last winter -- not certain, but people were at work on it. I put in my vote for that sometime last January. I then spent some time doing an extensive google search, and it was worth the effort as I found all sorts of confirmation that Clark had real depth. I suspect much of it is now gone, or deep cached -- but what really got me was some team teaching he apparently did several years ago with Georgetown Jesuits. They took the latest in US Military Doctrine from National War College, and then stacked it up against St. Augustine and Just War Theology. Apparently they did the gig at both Georgetown and Seaton Hall. I don't expect it to be part of a political campaign -- but I consider that kind of intellect delivered to undergraduates to be precisely what I mean by "an interesting candidate" who could make Bush rue the day that he satisfied himself with C's and D's at Yale.

Similarly, I think Clark is far more Liberal than Dean. Goodness Gracious, he talks about Progressive Taxes, about paying Professional School Teachers Professional Wages, He talks about "fairness Doctrine" in relationship to the problem with conservative media (and complains about what is on offer in Arkansas). And that is just the beginning.

[CWebster]

134. And the Reagan revolution

was one of the most dangerous political eras for this country---setting it on the course of gutting and criminalizing our government setting an agenda that continues unabated to this day.

I didn't fall for it then and I don't fall for it now.

So the question you have to ask yourself is, what are your priorities? Is it more important to have a packaged juvenile pop star image to promote, with appeal to Republican values, and poll-tested generalities to espouse - or are you going to look a little further beneath exterior slickness and look at the issues the Clark supporters prefer you not to address--Clark's corporate agenda, his views or regulation and accountability, his history of voting for and supporting the worst elements on the Right, his ties with the DLC...And then you decide whether that is the best course for our Party and our Country's future.

The last thing we need is another Reagan.

[Jerseycoa]

142. Yes, I lived through it

Nobody here is advocating a Reagan Revolution. We are advocating a Reagan Revolution in Reverse. A democratic revolution. And, as a first priority, we are advocating a win in 2004.

So, don't "fall for it." Let's have four more years of Bush. That would be good. :puke:

This link isn't for the closed-minded, but for those who want to consider winning in 2004:

Clark Policy Briefs

Trying to fit Clark into any ideological fit is a waste of time. He thinks for himself and will act in the best interest of the country. At least have a good look at a golden opportunity. Then you can take it or leave it. Somehow when people bother to take the look, though, they like what they see. No, it's not a perfect fit for me, either, but it is a perfect opportunity. We can blow it (again) or we can win in a way so big nobody can fuck with our election or with us.

[CWebster]

148. "Golden opportunity"..

Wait until they hang him for being fired from the Pentagon. clinton signed off on him. That is pretty serious. Who is kidding who?

You aren't going to persude Progressives - since the DLC takeover they are hanging in by a thread and increasingly looking for alternatives. It is only through Kucinich and Dean that you can still cling onto a very angry base. And don't give me that shit about anger, the anger is justified, it is like asking the adult who was abused by the parrish priest, not to be angry. Keeping the Left in line with the ABB refrain ain't gonna work if his replacement is someone on record lauding his praises.

[REP]

137. Excellent Points

I am still a Dean supporter, but have had nothing but admiration for Clark, even though I'm not in complete agreement with all his ideas. It's hard not to be impressed by his obvious intelligence and natural charm. I think DZ is absolutely right about the "Q factor," and one moment I think displays this most succinctly was his 30 second Rock the Vote spot, where he managed to display his thinking on issues as well as himself as a 'regular guy' with a sharp sense of humor. His manner and bearing are both dignified and likeable.

I still think he'd make an excellent, excellent Vice President and then President. If he's the nominee, though, I think he'd be a very able President, not just 'better than *.'

[Hep]

140. I hate Ronald Reagan, so I hope not

But you're point is taken. He may have a similar appeal.

[RandomUser]

141. Thank you for a excellent post, David

We will be fools if we don't nominate Clark. Of course, I'm biased. :)

[buddhamama]

145. i like him too on a personal level

although i disagree with him more than i agree with him on the issues,

he does have charisma!

my support is still behind DK.

it would be tough for me to feel good about voting for Clark,especially with his statements on the SOA,but,in the end, i would give him my vote.

[jab105]

150. I've backed Dean with about $200 worth of support....

but honestly, I beginning to wonder the same thing, and Clark seems to get stronger and stronger as he gets used to the political process whereas Dean seems to be content with "not doing badly"...

Am thinking of kicking some money towards Clark at this time...he does have the magic!

[CWebster]

151. Clark is the new kid on the block--Jonny come lately

and people fall for fads.

They could rip Clark to shreds on his performance at Pristina. What worries me is that they won't rip into him, because they know if they cede a Bush loss, they see a Clark win as their own. What better way for them to unload Bush when he starts to appear a liability?

[teevee]

155. people who say things like this

are so short sighted.
My grandma votes a straight (democratic) ticket. She has an 8th grade education.

In elections, you should only fall upon blind party (purity) allegiance when you're not educated. As in most of life, there's not defined lines, but rather gray areas that make up most of what we are.

Democrats, I agree with you on 90% of the issues. But sometimes I need a less hardcore approach and may side with a republican in a certain election. And sometimes I need a more hardcore approach and may side with a green or libertarian.

Clark is the president we were promised as a kid.

He's a uniter. He's a common sense, liberal and fair man. To not nominate him is to waste the greatest opportunity this country has had in my 26 years of breathing. I'm doing my best to make sure that doesn't happen.

[jayson23]

153. Challenge

:)

I was a Dean supporter before Clark got in, and now I've given about $400 to Clark's campaign.

If you want to contribute to the Clark campaign, I'll match you dollar for dollar. Come on over to http://permissionmagazine.forclark.com/ and let me know!

[Jack_Dawson]

157. This Marks a Turn

Excellent post David. And coming from a Deanie has a ton of credibility. I like Dean, I respect Dean, but Dean can't win. Clark had some early stumbles, yes. That comes from never having run for office. But what he lacks in political slickness, he more than makes up for in vision and sincerity.

We all know Bush is going to play the "War on Terror" card. Dean doesn't match up well, Clark matches up beautifully. Which is why Bush and his media mouthpieces are propping Dean.

Dean was first out of the gate, but peaked with the union endorsements. Now people are sobering up and realizing we need more than endorsements. We need someone who can annhiliate Bush and his terror goons. Clark is the only man who can do it.

[Kahuna]

159. Bush has already revealed his hand with his ad.

And look who had the knee jerk reactions. I can't possibly understand why anyone would respond to a bush/RNC ad during our Democratic primary season. It is a waste of time and resources. Bush is not the opponent right now.

[RetroLounge]

163. I hope not. Reagan was an awful President

we don't need another awful President, even if a (D) is next to his name.

So, no, Clark is not Reagan...

[lumpy]

166. I agree, David

All you have to ask yourself is: Why did Reagan win?

[David Zephyr]

167. Thanks to All Who Understand the Spirit of This Thread

And who took time to post some of the very best commentary I've read from my fellow Democrats here.

We must, for the sake our our country and the planet, all agree to unite behind the nominee of our Party to defeat George W. Bush next year.

I beg you all to do so.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

168. Thanks Again for Posting This

Yesterday was a great day here.

Today, unfortunately, it appears that people have once again descended into the pit. Sigh.

DTH

[Jerseycoa]

183. So true

I came back here to get a fresh breath. It's sure been stinky today. On an up note, I've discovered my "Ignore" button and that helps a lot.

[VolcanoJen]

172. You're welcome, David.

It's definitely been a mostly positive, upbeat thread. I think that many in the thread "get it," and understand what's at stake here.

You put it so eloquently in your thread starter that I dare not embarrass myself by piling onto your sentiment. Spot on, my friend! Hope you attend a Meet Up soon; you'll meet more great folks than you thought lived in your town, I promise that much.

:D

- Jennifer

[Kahuna]

179. Trust me David. If Dean is the nominee I will gladly vote..

for him and pray that he wins, just to see the reaction of the repukes.

[linkrot]

169. Comes down to honor, don't you think?

Dean is an ***hole, pandering to the left.

Kerry is irrelevent.

Clark is the next president.

Happy Thanksgiving, all!

[Kahuna]

180. Welcome to DU! But...

we Clarkies try really hard to behave and not engage in name calling... No matter how tempting it is to do so. :7

[rumguy]

171. This has been the most incredible thread I've ever read on DU

I've begun to notice something about Clark recently as well. It's a quality I can't quite put my finger on, but it resonates in the heart.

I think he is the best candidate and our best chance at winning.

[DemCam]

173. just a great read this afternoon..

Only a few of the acid-drips from the same few....with wonderful rejoinders from The Magistrate.

I'm very happy to see this positive thread on DU...because we are going to need all our good vibrations to get our strongest candidate the nomination and then back him against the onslaught of the Machine in the general election..

I'm in LA today for the holidays...and the Times looked like a lovefest to W and the Republicans.

Wes Clark is the man who can stand the most pain and the man who can lead the fight against this bunch who want to win too much.

[_NorCal_D_]

174. I agree.

Definitely a thread to bookmark and reflect upon a year from now. B-)

[Kahuna]

181. John Hlinko of the draft movement put it best. He said...

Clark reaches into your head and heart. As enchanted as I am with Clark's attractive and personable demeanor, that is not how it began for me. First he appealed to my logic. Now he touches my heart.

[Larkspur]

175. This Deanocrat does NOT find Clark charismatic

Dr. Kevorkian has more warmth and empathy than Gen. Clark, who is looking and sounding more and more like a corporate whore -- blessing the sending of software engineering jobs, my job, to India.

Clark is a political liability because of his civilian political inexperience. He's not a favorite for all Americans, just highly educated white males. His gender gap is larger than any Dean had and Dean's was primarliy due to lack of name recognition, which Clark is not suppose to have due to his CNN stints.

No way would I want Clark to be Dean's VP choice. Clark's political naivte would hurt Dean against a well organized Bush-Rove machine.

[Kat45]

176. Well this woman DOES find Clark charismatic, as well as

thoughtful, intelligent, and our best hope at winning back the White House.

Where do you get the idea that he is only the favorite of "highly educated white males"? Are you making it up? I've been to a couple of Clark MeetUps, as well as a Clark rally, and there were plenty of women at all of them. There were people of all ages, from college students to veterans of the sixties protests.

[Larkspur]

196. Polls have shown consistantly that Clark has a 3-to-1 gender gap

That's worse than what Dean had, but Dean's was due mainly to his lack of name recognition. As Dean rose in publicity and addressed women's issues, his gender gap evened out. Clark has a long way to go to do that, and he's got no record on promoting women's rights to backup his rhetoric.

[RichardRay]

177. Not just 'Q'

I have no TV, don't live in a place where anybody campaigns or does fund raisers and am one of about four Democrats in the county. I've never seen Clark in person or even heard his voice. I don't see how I could have been exposed to some sort of mind controlling ubercharm. What I know of Clark is what I've found out by research and reading. On those basis I currently support his run for the Democratic nomination and would enjoy voting for him for president.

If those who find Clark anathema and claim there are smoking guns to be found would point me to them I'd be glad to give them the same consideration I'v given other points of view. I registered on anncoulter.com and behaved nicely for a few weeks just to find out what those folks are all about; I'd be happy to give others the same consideration. Please don't point me to idealogue rants or tin foil hat gibberish. I prefer source documents with references sited. Don't assume the correctness of an analysis and then support your assumptions with selected news stories. Just provide the raw information and let me make up my mind.

[Donna Zen]

185. I understand what you mean RR

It was reading his book that made me look for more. But really, if you can stream off of the cspan archieves, his delivery is quite worth seeing. The pauses and emphasis he puts into those words give them an additional meaning. His hands are almost always opened. Part of it I suspect came with training and experience, but the overall effect can only be labeled born Q.

[ElementaryPenguin]

178. Clark/Dean = Dem Landslide victory! Most Repukes/Independents I know

Like Clark a lot!!! They say he seems very presidential! I love Dean - but my undeniable instinct is that Clark is the one who would most definitely whup the Evil/Dunce War Chimp!!!

[AmericanDem]

184. Clark shouldn't be compared to that Repuke.

Although Clark is a uniter for our party and the country!

[Polemonium]

186. Trading substance for glam - WTF

Calling your brain, please come in. You're basically admitting to being a sheeple.

We do need to consider who can beat srhub when we choose a candidate, but the idea that Clark is the only one who can is ridiculous. Some republicans have also been brought over to the Dean camp. Further, Dean has a growing group of supporters working and raising funds on his behalf. The grassroots behind Dean are far more substantial than those behind Clark, and those grassroots are bringing in new people everyday. These new supporters are being won largely not by a charismatic poster child, but by regular folks talking and writing to other regular folks. Further, and more importantly, Dean has demonstrated that he his listening to us regular folks to change the way he campaigns and forms his platform. Clark has not got a history of listening to the public to determine where he stands. Therefore, Dean by the vary nature of his record and his unprecedented campaign is more accountable to the people, and more representative than any politician in a long, long time. Dean is more substantial on the issues, and I assume if you've done your homework you already know this. The reasons for it though are that there are 500,000 supporters backing him up, and many of those are helping him better clarify his positions. His policies are not coming from political pundits who are strategizing a win; they are not coming from big money supporters. Over half of the impressive financial support Dean has received has come from small donors, so he is more accountable to a broad spectrum of people than any other candidate. Vote and support a candidate that appeals to your brain, and your heart, not your vanity or fear.

[rumguy]

187. I bet Tsongas backers in 92 made similar arguments

to Clinton backers? Now aren't we all glad that Clinton won that primary?

[Polemonium]

188. a rediculous comparison

Tsongas had no where near this kind of support. What is happening in the Dean campaign has energized people and given them hope. A broad spectrum of people are participating because of this campaign. It is unlike anything we have seen in 20-30 years. Be honest.

[rumguy]

189. It is a cool thing

I'd vote for Dean, I love him. It's just that I worry about his appeal in the gen. election...ya know same ol' stuff debated all the time here in DU...I hope I'm wrong cuz I know he stands a good chance of winning the nom.

[Polemonium]

190. I hope so too

I feel the power of the kind of support Dean generates continues to be disregarded. A movement of people embracing democracy is a powerful thing. Second, I feel Dean is more robust to attack because of the degree of support he has. Clark or whoever with there charisma will be backed up by whom exactly when some right wing nut finds an Achilles heel. Dean has at present 500,000 that are going to scream BS, and stand him back up again. We are beginning to see what active democracy looks like with a very diverse group of supporters. This is something to embrace, not something to fear. I feel fear and strategy have lost us too many elections lately. Why not trust in something that is new, and that feels right (deep down in your bones, in your head, and your heart).

[Kahuna]

195. If substance over glam was the issue, Graham would still

be in the race and leading it. As I recall, it was Deanies who smeared Graham the most. Of course, now they're delighted that Dean is using Graham's name in Florida to win support. Typical.

[leesa]

191. Oh please, even Wesley Clark has to be better than THAT!

Just kidding. Reagan was an idiot and just a stooge like Bush. Why play their game?

[NNN0LHI]

192. Why play their game? Here is why. Stooges or not they were both presidents

[FrenchieCat]

193. David, make sure you read this....

Sabl teaches political philosophy in the Department of Policy Studies at UCLA.


November 26, 2003
How I became a Clark supporter
By Mark A.R. Kleiman

My support for Clark has not come naturally. I'm a partisan and liberal Democrat, no great lover of old Clinton staffers and smug New Democrats. I'm prone to value experience in democratic politics over the hierarchical values of military service. And when I heard that Clark had voted for Reagan, praised Bush, spoken at a Lincoln Day dinner, and said that he'd have been a Republican had Karl Rove returned his calls (no, I don't believe that he was joking -- though he may have been trying for sarcasm), I judged him an amoral opportunist and borderline con artist. In angry e-mails to a pro-Clark friend, I called the general an "ambipartisan" and summarized the Lincoln Day revelation as "Game Over."

But I figured I owed the largely unknown candidate a chance. Being a professor, I decided to read his book, Winning Modern Wars. After finishing it, I figured out what Clark is about, and why his candidacy is both baffling and compelling.

MAKE SURE TO READ THE REST...IT'S QUITE LONG!
http://www.ospolitics.org/usa/archives/2003/11/26/how_i_beca.php

[David Zephyr]

194. I've Already Read It.

But I thank you for posting the link. I'd hope a lot of folks here would read it.