Dean lied at debate to escape the pressure

[phirili]

Dean seemed to stretch beyond the facts when he charged that Congress had done nothing on health care during Gephardt's long tenure in Congress that "benefited our state or any other state." That indictment ignored the Children's Health Insurance Program, which Congress passed in 1997 and now enrolls 5 million children nationwide.

Gephardt cited that program during the debate.

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-debate-timenov24,1,4931533.story?coll=la-home-headlines

[oasis]

1. who's your candidate, if I may ask?

[Karmadillo]

2. who's your candidate, if I may ask?

n/t

[oasis]

3. John Kerry , Clark is my second choice.

[phirili]

5. Obviously not Howard B Dean

[oasis]

6. obviously.

[Dagaz]

4. Shoot from the lip

C'Mon...Dean is not about facts but he's got that angry white attitude that is fun to watch. I admit it's a blast to watch but then I think about Bush winning a landslide and I hope for a more cerebral candidate.

[retyred]

10. dean did appear to get real red in the face

when double teamed by Kerry and Gephardt, you'd think being a doctor, he'd know that anger is bad for the heart.



retyred in fla
“good night paul, wherever you are”
read the book

[Lorien]

20. Oh, c'mon!

There's not a Dem out there that isn't "cerebral" compared to Bush*!

[Gore1FL]

24. Not Cerebral????

How do you go through medical school practice medicine and then turn to a life of politics, run a state and rise to the level of frontrunner and not be a little "cerebral".

I mean he didn't have "Bush" for a last name. I don't think he made it through life with daddy's influence, so for Dean these accomplishments mean something.

Say what you want about Dean. To classify him as not cerebral is, well innacurrate.

[bearfartinthewoods]

25. either he didn't know it wasn't true or he knowingly lied

neither choice speaks well for him

[dsc]

7. In fact Dean has a point

First, his Dr. Dynosaur plan predates that law. Which means he insured Vermont's kids without that law. Secondly, if a state didn't chose to spend its money then the law did nothing. That is why states like Ohio and Texas insured virtually no children during the same time that places like Vermont and PA insured a bunch.

[Fleshdancer]

11. That's what I thought he said

It was driving me crazy because I thought Dean made a pretty clear distinction during the debate that he passed the Dynosaur plan prior to what Congress did, but the article on this thread didn't mention it. If you only read the article without listening to the debate, it sounds as if Dean said the Congress did nothing at all. I started to doubt myself there for a sec.

I'm glad you posted when you did, I was going to try to hunt down the transcripts from the debate.

[phirili]

13. Done nothing to "benefited our state or any other state."

Is Dynosaur in the other States? Don't you see where Brush Dean's statement is false and wholly inaccurate?

[dsc]

15. It is at worst a slight over statement

and maybe not even that. It did help states that chose to insure kids. But without the governors spending state money nothing happened. Again, if you don't beleve me on this look up Texas and Ohio's record to name two states.

[sangh0]

26. No, it's completely false

The statement, true to Dean's uncompromising nature, is absolute. According to Dean, Congress did NOTHING. This flase "assertion of fact" is easily refuted by identifying just one thing Congress did.

Congress created CHIPS. Dean was wrong. Either he knew and lied, or he didn't know, and should be ashamed

[dsc]

35. Creating CHIPS

in and of itself, did nothing. Had states not decided to spend their money on that program, and there was no requirement that they do so, not one child would have been insured. To site two examples of states where this happened Texas and Ohio.

[sangh0]

39. Irrelevant

You can blather all you want about what would happen "Had states not decided to spend their money on that program" but the fact remains that state DID DECIDE to spend their money on that program.

[dsc]

42. Not every state did

I have sited two, and I know damn well there were more than two, which didn't. That law, good as it was, insured no one by itself. Both Ohio and Texas saw the percentage of unisured climb due to not funding it.

[sangh0]

45. So what?

That law, good as it was, insured no one by itself

Yeah, and all things being equal, it's a good thing we got rid of Saddam. The only problem is all things are never equal, and no law operates "by itself"

And Dean didn't say "Congress did nothing by itself". Dean did not include your qualifier. That's why we're not criticizing you.

[Fleshdancer]

16. And to think I thought I wouldn't have to look up the transcript...

This gives a more accurate view of what was said than the article posted above:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/24/politics/campaigns/24TEXT-DEBATE.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5062&en=6df97a77ccf3752e&ex=1070341200&partner=GOOGLE


DEAN: I think he's a good guy, but his research folks need a little help.

(LAUGHTER)

We did not, of course, cut Medicaid. What we did do was make sure that we could keep the people on Medicaid. Not one person -- unlike almost every other state in the country, not one person lost their Medicaid when I was governor of the state.

Look, all our kids under 18-years-old, 99 percent of them have health insurance. Everybody under 150 percent of poverty, all our working poor people have health insurance. A third of our seniors have prescription benefits. Nobody in Congress has done anything like that. We did it in Vermont, and I'm incredibly proud of my record in Vermont.

GEPHARDT: I've got to have 10 seconds.

The reason Governor Dean and other governors has a program for children's health is because we passed it in the Congress. And I helped put it into the law.

GEPHARDT: Finally, some of the cuts came back -- and Governor Dean is right -- but because he was sued by the Legal Defense Fund in Vermont to make him put the funding back in.

DEAN: Well, now I'll take my 10 seconds.

(LAUGHTER)

The truth is that we put our children's health care program in before Bill Clinton came into office. So, in all due respect to Dick, nothing that they have done benefited our state or any other state, because nothing's been done on health care for a long time in the Congress of the United States.

And that is why it is time for new leadership in this country and in this party, so we can win again.

[phirili]

18. Dean became Governor in 1991; so the children's care program preceded him

and what Dean said about not benefiting other states is a whopper.

[loyalsister]

19. Not really

People are losing health care left and right in my state. The feds require ONLY that the state ear mark a certain amount of money for medicaid. How that is spent is at the discretion of the states. Medicaid funds a wide range of services. Independent living services, personal care attendants in some cases, nursing home care, transportation, etc. They do what they can to pick up slack for hospitals that have to take patients who can't pay that are in the red. They also pay for prescription drugs. AND, when the money is gone, it's gone.
The feds have not provided the states with enough funding for health care, YET there are a number of entitlements that come off the top. And, the states HAVE to cover what the feds don't. MO keeps getting sued. They have had to make cuts because the money isn't there. Then, groups find ways to make coverage for prescription eyeglasses, and dental care entitlements.
Dean is right. Things were good while there was plenty of money during the Clinton years, but they did nothing to promise we'd be protected during the lean years.

[sandnsea]

21. Vermont is a tiny state

No cities, no major problems. A state that had high coverage rates for children before they ever implemented any programs. That's the whole point about his programs being Medicaid based. Trying to solve health care based on what 'worked' in Vermont is fairyland. Most states have way more problems, poverty, crime, racial disparity. That's why those states have a harder time with coverage.

And Vermont just cut some eyeglass and dental coverge too, reworked their prescription drug program, and implemented co-pays, premiums and deductibles. And the program itself is being covered by surpluses; the program is running million dollar deficits and will be cutting even more as those surpluses run out.

I haven't heard him talk about the negative sides of the Vermont plan and how he would fix them so that the plan would actually work out here in the real world.

[sangh0]

27. Yes, really.

While you may think the Feds have not done ENOUGH (and I'd agree) that's not the only thing Dean said. He also said nothing that they have done benefited our state or any other state, because nothing's been done on health care for a long time in the Congress of the United States.

That statement is NOT TRUE.

[xJlM]

22. You get used to it after a while

The hits just keep on coming from Howard. I guess you (like me) must need to drink some of their kool-aid, or something. I don't see how else the Dean supporters can justify his backtracking, hedging, and out right lies.

[redqueen]

49. Keeripes

That's one that's touted all the time... "Dr Dynosaur, Dr Dynosaur"... :eyes:

[NewYorkerfromMass]

51. And note that Dean did not originate Dr Dynosaur.

as stated elsewhere in this thread, or as mistakenly believed elsewhere.

[blm]

55. Dean reinvented programs like Bush. AmeriCorps absorbed by FreedomCorps.

You know. Take programs that are already working, give them a facelift and maybe a new name and claim them as your own.

It's a standard con job done by politicians who plan to run for higher office.

[sandnsea]

17. 1984 - Child Health Asst. Program

Then the 1987 Omnibus Budget Reconicliation Act which expanded eligibility for pregnant women and children. These were the basis for Dr. Dynasaur. Every program he's implemented has had it's basis in a Medicaid program in one way or another. He has gotten waivers to expand the services and provide them differently, like through HMO's, but without Medicaid and Congress, NO programs.

http://faculty.smu.edu/tmayo/health%20care%20timeline.htm

[sangh0]

28. Another Dean lie

used to justify another Dean lie. Oh, the webs we weave...

[blm]

37. I don't see how he claims the mantle of "straight talker" when it

seems to me his first instinct is to lie when he's uncomfortable with the truth.

That is the crap that will KILL us in ads run by Rove. You know Rove has caught ALL of Dean's lies and inconsistencies on tape.

Factor them in now, Dems, before they torment you throughout the general election.

[dsc]

40. actually another anti Dean lie

to butress made up stories about Dean. For the record, Dean doesn't claim to have invented Dr. Dynosaur. He does claim. accurately I might add, to have expanded it. The fact the program existed when he got there doesn't preclude his having expanded it but is a necessary condition for him to have done so.

[sangh0]

48. Here's what you said in post #7

"First, HIS Dr. Dynosaur plan predates that law. Which means he insured Vermont's kids without that law."

Who is the "he" you are referring to here? Dr Dean?

In post #7 you describe Dean as the author of the Dr Dynosaur plan. In this post, you say "Dean doesn't claim to have invented Dr. Dynosaur"

If Dean doesn't claim it, why do you, in post#7, claim that the Dr Dynosaur plan is "his"?

[dsc]

50. I should have typed his states

I got sloppy but he doesn't claim authorship. So the mistake is mine not his. I can't believe I am the only person in the history of this board to do that.

For the record this is what his site says.

Dr. Dynasaur — Governor Dean has expanded children and pregnant women’s access to health care. Currently 58,903 children are covered under the program. Dr. Dynasaur covers children up to the age of 18 within families up to 300% of the Federal Poverty Line

I also misspelled it which is not unusual for me. Again the mistake is mine not his. He is clearly discussing expansion.

[Scott Lee]

64. Reading is phundamental

Here is the post in which you claim that dsc said Dean "authored" the Dr. Dynosaur plan.:

"First, his Dr. Dynosaur plan predates that law. Which means he insured Vermont's kids without that law. Secondly, if a state didn't chose to spend its money then the law did nothing. That is why states like Ohio and Texas insured virtually no children during the same time that places like Vermont and PA insured a bunch."

That is the post in it's entirety. Now please be so kind as to to point out to us specifically where it said, anywhere in there, that Dean authored the Dr. Dynosaur plan. Using "his" could mean his take on something that was already in play (in other words he need not have authored it). If I do something in "my" campaign, does that mean that I invented the concept of the campaign?

Reading is phundamental. Try it sometime.

[bobbyboucher]

8. Uh

:boring:

[wtmusic]

9. So Dean eats kittens! Get over it!

:silly:

[fabius]

12. Dean is guilty of hyperbole on this one.

I still support him.

He's warming up for Shrub.

[phirili]

14. At least you're being honest

[sangh0]

29. Hyperbole?

Is that the polite term for "lie"?

Dean said "nothing that they have done benefited our state or any other state, because nothing's been done on health care for a long time in the Congress of the United States"

[NewYorkerfromMass]

34. It's really insulting and dishonest

yet the Kool-aid is readily lapped up by the Deanocentric.

[dsc]

43. You sure do know insulting and dishonest

I do have to give you that.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

44. Dean's the role model extraordinaire

I have to give him that. And how he gets support for his lies is beyond me.

[RetroLounge]

59. apparently much about Dean is beyond you..

but we won't hold it against you.

Some are just slower than others...

[Scott Lee]

65. Shhhh!!! You wanna take away their rason d'etre?

You cruel person!

[Le Taz Hot]

23. Hmmmm . . .

Phish, Phatphish, Phirili.

[Scott Lee]

30. Another phirili attack thread....it must be Wednesday.

At best Dean stretched it with "nothing"...he should have said next to nothing (which is true with this lameoid Bush enabling Dem contingent in Congress).

Is that a "lie"? I'm sure only in the noggin of the extreme Dean hater, which DU has more than a few of.

[Hep]

31. What did the sun come up again?

n/t

[sangh0]

32. "Stretched"

Is that another word for "wrong"?

[Scott Lee]

61. "hackneyed"

As in your hackneyed attack strategy against anything Dean says or does.

("hack-need")

[tjdee]

33. He ALWAYS does this.

I look forward to the day/days after a debate with Dean, because you always know you're going to get a "clarification" or an "misspeak" or something like that.

[sangh0]

36. Does that

remind you of anyone?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

38. O.K. I give up

who?

[blm]

47. but..but...he's a straight talker...y'know...like Bush.

yep....unfortunately, he is.

[Cocoa]

41. Dean is running against Congress

I wouldn't say he's lying, but his anti-Congress rhetoric is off the mark with me, with Bush in office.

[maggrwaggr]

46. nobody's locked this thread yet? Seems in clear violation

to have such a misleading headline

[msmcghee]

52. A lie is an attempt to deceive - it is usually . . .

. . done behind someone's back - so they can't refute you.

Calling that statement a lie is going a bit far - and makes you sound like an ideologue only interested in smearing Dean.

There are plenty of plausible explanations for his statement - many of them listed above. I can't imagine that he expected to deceive anyone - with his opponents standing there perfectly capable of refuting him - or correcting him on the record.

BTW - I haven't picked a Dem candidate from the pack yet - but I resent anyone calling any of the Dem candidates liars - unless they have a very good reason. If any of them truly fall into that category then they should not be running on the Dem ticket - so that's a pretty serious allegation.

IMHO - There's plenty of lieing going on on the other side without us labeling good Dems as liars (unless they truly deserve it).

[Octafish]

53. Dean doesn't really mean Congressional DEMs are not cockroaches.

The ex-governor ex-doctor ex-stockbroker only says they are to build up the support of the Democratic base. Perhaps Dean's coattails will be longer than Britney Spear's tank-top. Like the GOP says, cockroaches appreciate a free ride.

[AmericanDem]

54. It was a form of weakness

I seen exactly what you brought up. The guy was under alot of pressure for sure. He looked shell shocked through out most of that debate. The funny part was the after debate commentary. Most of the repuke media said Dean won by not losing....LOL. that was all that was need to be said.

The big winners in the last debate were Clark and Gephardt.

[Wapsie B]

56. Theads like these

are so tansparent. Nice try.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

57. You mean threads that point out the facts?

[Scott Lee]

62. The "fact" that Dean has a handful of obsessive haters dogging him?

Can't dispute that one. Nosiree.

[AmericanDem]

58. yes FACTS are hard to get away fro...

aren't they?

[RetroLounge]

60. Posted by phirili

no shit...

Whattsa matter, the others in your Anti-Dean club busy?

[Scott Lee]

63. It's phirili's shift. Two others are on vacation.

I just saw the ADJHS roster.