Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Problem with cigarette smuggling during times of high taxes where I live..

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU
 
Some Moran Donating Member (675 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 02:48 AM
Original message
Problem with cigarette smuggling during times of high taxes where I live..
Without sounding racist?

As you may all know, Canada's healthcare system is socialised, and smokers are among its biggest drains.

As such, Ontario's newly elected Liberal government plans a huge cigarette tax hike to make up for this drain.

The newly-elected Liberal Member of Provincial Parliament in my constituency, Jim Brownell (a nice enough guy, but a pathetic public speaker, and he had to sell out gays and lesbians by changing his position on same-sex marriage so as to win the support of the "redneck socialists" who dominate this region's politics) opposes the tax hike because of concerns about cigarette smuggling, which turned my home town into a lawless sort of "Dodge City" when Rae's NDP government taxed the Hell out of cigarettes in the early-1990s.

Basically, organised crime would buy cigarettes tax-free on the Akwesasne Mohawk Reserve, and then sell them on the Black market here in Cornwall.

I know that it does not make economic or political sense for Akwesasne's government to impose a tax on cigarettes, as it would greatly reduce cigarette sales and significantly reduce the profits of many Akwesasne businesses.

What can be done without seemin racist?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
sasquatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 02:58 AM
Response to Original message
1. "Redneck Socalist"
Move on over Canucks I'm coming in:7 It can't be all that bad up there if you've got "Redneck Socalist". I quit chewing tobacco about two years ago and I'm a no-neck not a Redneck BTW.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Some Moran Donating Member (675 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 03:00 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. It just means...
That these people are extremely moralistic but also prefer a more economically involved government.

They tend to vote Repuke for "cultural reasons" in the U.S.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LibertyorDeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 03:01 AM
Response to Original message
3. Holy shit it's a small world I lived in Cornwall for 11 years
Edited on Wed Nov-26-03 03:05 AM by LibertyorDeath
74 to 85 my mother in-law works for the Jim Brownell constituency office (volunteer) she lives out near Long Sault.

I went to GVSS and St.Lawrence High & St. Lawrence College

Now I've got to figure out if I know you?

How old are you if you don't mind me asking?

Well if they go ahead with huge cigarette tax hike then they will create an underground market for smokes again no doubt.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Some Moran Donating Member (675 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 03:03 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. I'm only 20...
Edited on Wed Nov-26-03 03:03 AM by Some Moran
My brother was born as you moved out of there. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LibertyorDeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 03:08 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Man your just a pup thought I might know you.

My sister and father still live in Cornwall will be visiting them in about 10 days.

Any snow on the ground yet or is it just cold with no snow?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BonjourUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 03:47 AM
Response to Original message
6. Our cigarette tax raised hugely in this last time
And it will raise one more time in next january (20%). Today for example, the price of a Malboro box is 4.60 euro (5,40$), you can calculate which this price will be in some days.

The aim of the gov is to decrease the number of smokers (and to get cash.. also). The result : a little drop of this number and a strong increase of the smuggling. This black market didn't exist before or was very very low.

Many French smokers go abroad where their tobacco is cheaper. I live at 25 km from the Spanish border where the price of this same box is 2,50 euro (3$)... I'm a smoker...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
slaveplanet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. The Tax here can be somewhat
circumvented...by buying bulk $8-9 per 168g or 6oz. ,200 Filtered tubes-$3.00....so that's about $12 per carton, If you already have the stuffer. Of course this is only good if you're a home smoker or you want to pop a bunch off before you leave home. But it sure beats $30 a carton. The taxation on bulk is class J, so instead of the $.50 perpack increase, the whole 168g can was like $.40. I just can't stand that they rob the tobacco funds for their own purposes, they could care less if smokers actually die from it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BonjourUSA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #7
22. A box of 20 cig = 4,60 euro (5,40$) in France !
(
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
8. Economic Blockade?
Okay, put that one on the back burner.

I don't know what the Canadian law says about the rights of the Reserve, but if they have the authority to set their own tax strucuture, then so be it. I would be something other than racist to try to force them to tax cigarettes against their wishes (not even sure how that could be done).

But other options remain. Do the Akwesasne get Canadian health care? Perhaps if ALL cigarette taxes went to health care, they could be pursuaded that, in order to get health care, the reserve must mirror Canada's taxes that go to health care.

What about an additional incentive? Their concern obviously, is the loss of consumers if they offer equal cigarette taxes. Is there some other incentive that would keep people coming to the reserve other than cheap cigarettes? Something the Canadian government could help with?

How about incentivised cooperation? What if the Canadian government agreed, that if the reservation implemented the higher taxes, they could keep 100% of all tax collected on the reserve, and perhaps, get 70% of cigarette taxes collected within 100 miles of the reserve? (Maybe allow citizens of the reserve to pay no cigarette taxes.)

Finally, can't Canada tax cigarettes at the point of entry to the country? That seems like it would be the simplest.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
9. Don't know, I'm a smuggler.
I buy smokes in NC for $17.00 per carton and go to New York City where I sell them for $4 per pack. SO I'm biased.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mentalist Donating Member (150 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. See post 11
see post 11.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Flightful Donating Member (183 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
10. Remember Dalton's ad?
You know, the one where he said, "I won't increase the taxes you pay."

Chalk it up as broken promise #8 in less than a month. The funniest thing is the reaction of the people who voted for him- like they didn't know his party is full of lying weasels. Remember the GST pledge?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Some Moran Donating Member (675 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #10
19. lol...
Dalton was very smart though. His "Choose Change" slogan perfectly captured the mood of Ontario and he used front groups (as in left-wing lobby groups with ties to the Liberals, such as the Ontario Working Families Coalition) to attack Eves, rather than attacking his opponents directly like Hampton, Eves, and de Jong did.

From an ideological perspective, I don't mind seeing McGuinty tax the Hell out of smokers. Conversely, I know it's bad for Cornwall's stability and quality of life, and I also don't appreciate his lying about taxes in the campaign. (Oh well...Don't blame me, I voted NDP. :) )
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mentalist Donating Member (150 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
11. I don't see race as having anything to do with it
I do remember when there was a massive tax increase on tobacco in Canada in the early 90's. A lot of "mom & pop" type stores went out of business because of the tremendous drop in cigarette purchases at their stores.

I also remember, living in Buffalo at the time, some local cigarette smugglers being interviewed about smuggling. They said they formerly trafficed in drugs, but now the money was just as good in cigarettes and the penalties if caught were much lower.

While these people are criminals, they are not stupid.

I also remember NY AG Elliot Spitzer on news program a few years back (defore NYs last huge tax increase) talking about the problem of black market cigarettes in NY. He squarely placed the blame on Virginas low tax. Wrong Mr. Spitzer. The problem is NYs HIGH tax.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
12. cigarette taxes are regressive
Like any sales tax -- they hit the poor hardest, because the poor can least afford them. In this case, they are punitive.

Imagine a single senior cit living on the minimum fixed income -- just under $950 a month, counting all guaranteed income supplements etc. If s/he (statistically, "she") is lucky, she has a subsidized apartment (not too difficult to get in many areas) at 1/3 of income a month, leaving $600+ for other expenses. Nearly $100 a month for cable and phone; cable is really "essential" for an older person living alone and not able to afford any other form of entertainment.

If we take out of the remaining money a pack of cigarettes a day at $10 (which is what it's coming to), that's $300. Bad enough for a well-to-do person; horrible for a low-income person.

Cigarette smoking is an addiction, and in the case of people over 65 it is an addiction that was not prevented, and in some cases was actively contributed to, by the government (e.g. in the military during WWII). It is inappropriate to punish the people with the addiction by taking their money in the form of taxes.

High taxes are supposed to (and apparently do) reduce the incidence of smoking among children and young people. A laudable aim. One that could also be accomplished by raising the legal age for purchasing them and enforcing it even more strictly.

Cigarette smuggling, and selling smuggled cigarettes, is a crime. I really don't care whether it's being engaged in by white-collar executives (what's happened to the tale of the cigarette manufacturers being complicit in the smuggling of a decade ago?) or by low-income First Nations individuals. In point of fact, it isn't really "low-income individuals" engaging in these activities in First Nations communities, it is indigenous organized crime gangs whom the communities are terrorized by and generally don't want around.

First Nations people are exempt from taxes for themselves, not for purposes of trading with non-First Nations individuals or businesses, period. They simply are not entitled to exploit their tax-free status to assist others in circumventing taxes, or to compete with businesses that are subject to the rules. (First Nations people, by the way, are entitled to all the usual benefits of Canadian citizenship, including universal health care. And I'm strongly in favour of settling land claims, enforcing aboriginal rights like hunting and fishing, expanding self-government arrangements, adapting the criminal justice system to reduce its unequal impact on First Nations people, etc.)

Unfortunately, given the high rewards and relatively low risk of apprehension and punishment, cigarette smuggling, like drug dealing and illegal gambling operations and the like, is a crime that's difficult to combat by enforcement activities. The horror stories of what went on around Cornwall last time this was tried -- machine guns being fired from boats on the St. Lawrence into the community centre on the shore -- demonstrate the investment that people are willing to make, and risks they are willing to take, to smuggle and black-market cigarettes. Just like the illegal drug trade. The profits to be made make the risks worthwhile.

So count me against higher cigarette taxes, both because they are "morally" wrong, as a punitive tax on the poor, and because, while they may reduce certain harms (smoking among young people) they have the inevitable result of increasing other harms (creating new criminal activity, strengthening organized crime, causing violence in affected communities).

.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spindoctor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
13. Smokers drain the health care system?
*cough cough* do you have some numbers to support that statement?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
outinforce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
15. Here's A Question For You
"As you may all know, Canada's healthcare system is socialised, and smokers are among its biggest drains.

As such, Ontario's newly elected Liberal government plans a huge cigarette tax hike to make up for this drain.
"

Here's a question for you:

If smoking is such a tremendous drain on the financial resources of Canada, and if smoking is so terribly dangerous to a person's health, why doesn't the government of Canada simply outlaw tobacco products, rather than raising taxes on them?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mentalist Donating Member (150 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. I firmly believe
that the government (US and Canada) are more addicted to the tax revenue than the smokers are to the nicotine.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
outinforce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. I Fear You Are Correct
And if, as you say, the Federal and State/Provincial Governments of both Canada and the United States are terribly addicted to the revenue they receive from tobacco users, then isn't there something terribly immoral with any government that profits off of the self-destructive behavior of some of its citizens?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
truthspeaker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. because drug prohibition doesn't work?
Didn't work with alcohol, isn't working with weed, coke, smack, and crank.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JHB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
20. How about NOT making a huge hike?
Two questions for you:

1) Are smokers really one of the biggest drains on the system? My understanding of the statistics is that long-term smokers tend to have a single catastrophic event (heart attack, etc.) which kills them, while nonsmokers -- lasting longer on average -- tend to have several non-fatal events or chronic conditions (broken hip, etc.) before they finally pass on. Depending on the level of existing tobacco taxes, smokers either already pay the costs of their burden on the system or subsidize everyone else (i.e., they generate more revenue than they use up in costs).

2) What do you do/eat/drink that you'll have to stop when the lifestyle police decide your activity should cease to be part of the general stream and should be singled out additional penalties under the guise of saving costs?

Universal coverage is universal coverage. Using it to justify coercive policies undermines the very freedom that such a system provides.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spindoctor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Thank you. That was the point I was getting to myself.
*cough cough*
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Is all that coughing from black lungs?
Just wondering...

Sid
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Apr 23rd 2024, 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC