Is the U.S. even worth fighting for anymore?

[Beaker]

My wife and I are making plans to liquidate s much as we can by next November, and if the Lil' Dictator is re-appointed, we will be leaving these shores, most likely never to return.
There are some who would call this cowardice, or backing down in the face of tyranny- they think that the America that they were brought up to believe in can still be saved by unified opposition to the current Regime.
It can't.
That America no longer exists, and probably never did. Being liberal in America's future is becoming more and more like being black in it's past.
The sheeple seem to be quite happy and content to participate in the Bataan Death March that the Republican Horde is taking them on.
Let them and their children and grandchildren find out the hard way- I'm tired of ringing the alarm bell, and have decided that the time has come to be more concerned with what's best for US and OUR future, NOT the USA.

[HawkerHurricane]

1. I will not leave

unless physically deported.

You can have my constitution when you pry it out of my hands.

MY Country.

[mmm]

2. it certainly ain't worth dying for

I am liquidating everything even as we speak.

[mrgorth]

3. You're right.

I wish I could convince my wife. Time to go where the civilization is.

[IrateCitizen]

4. What is the U.S. to you, then?

Is it the soil contained by our man-made borders? Is it the group of politicians sitting in comfort on Capitol Hill? Or is it the IDEALS put forth by our Founding Fathers, and the subsequent work of all of those through our history who have seeked to perpetuate those ideals, even at great resistance from the government itself?

For me it's the latter. And, IMHO, that's something COMPLETELY worth fighting for!

[Beaker]

32. The Constitution is a "living" document.

and the majority of the people currently living under it have apparently decided that tyranny is the system that they choose to live under. Not Me and Mine. Despite what they may have tried to drill into your head as you were growing up, the U.S. is not the only "free" country on the planet, and it's supposed "beacon" of Democracy has been seriously dimmed of late.

As to what the U.S. is to me- It's the country I was born and raised in, and that country is a more distant memory every day.

BTW- when the 'Founding Fathers' put forth those ideals you speak so highly of, they intended them for white land-owning men only. And that's exactly the meaning that the current crop of 'constitutionalists' intend to return it to. If you want to fight the majority for forgotten ideals that can now be found more easily elsewhere, go ahead. But I realize that we only get one ride on this planet, and I don't intend to spend the entire time locked in a fruitless struggle. I want to enjoy my life to the fullest that I possibly can.

[mike_c]

33. if you believe that, how are you fighting for it...

...since those principles are already under attack and nearly beaten?

[Ficus]

5. Can't stop fighting

for those who have no voice. And besides, I love this country and I love it's people. Sometimes I like the government, sometimes I don't. But when it's tough, I certainly can't abandon those who need a voice more than ever.

[BeFree]

6. See ya

If that is the attitude you are going to take --"Run and Hide" then I say, be gone with ya, the quicker the better for those who remain to carry on. We don't need slackers in this most important play for our future. We know that we can't depend on the likes of folks like that who instead of fighting to the end turn tail and run. We are better off without.

[G_j]

21. carry on what?

there is no mention of strategy or wisdom here. Some say, "he who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day"
At what point do foolishness and "bravery" become indistinquishable?

[PissedOffPollyana]

25. Ah, a sensible POV!

Honestly, I would very much prefer to be outside US borders for the 2004 election. I'll absentee vote, of course (for what good THAT will do in Florida), but will be safely tucked away someplace where my husband & I can avoid any nastiness that might risk our safety. The ability to still work toward regaining our freedom & democracy, in the off chance the worst happens, is far more valuable.

I am deathly afraid of what the possibility of a landslide defeat would inspire this cabal to do. Their last coup d'etat was judicial & for the most part, bloodless. Who can try to predict the reaction to the probability of being ousted? There is only track record to draw from & that is not terribly promising, is it?

Color me paranoid, but my voice is far more effective if I'm still breathing and in a place where I'm free to use it. If we thought the tactics in Miami last week were extreme, we'll have to invent a whole new language to express the wholesale police state that will insue if another coup is attempted.

[onebigbadwulf]

7. This country was founded on

people running away from Tyranny. Nothing wrong with that.

[HawkerHurricane]

8. The Country was founded by

People FIGHTING AGAINST tyranny.

[shrike]

9. 'Fraid I agree with you

Someone made the point that in Hitler's Germany, protests and even acts of heroism were futile in the face of mass apathy and outright collusion.
I call it being a realist. I plan to leave this country eventually, but getting my husband to leave this state, let alone this nation, is damned near impossible. He is older than me, though, and women in my family live well into their nineties, therefore at some point I'll pack my losses and go -- probably to Mexico, since it is easier for an older person to emigrate there. Besides, any country where more than 90 percent of the population dislikes George Bush can't all bad.

[AmericanDem]

10. You are right it is Cowardice!

I'm a life long Democrat and will fight to my death for MY COUNTRY! It's that kind of slacked jawed, gutless behavior that has us in this situation to begin with.

Why are waiting for next November, to perhaps stick around hoping that the ones that truly fight back will make things all better for you?

I say good Riddance, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out! Leave NOW don't wait.




:puke: :puke: :puke:

[G_j]

14. and why can't someone fight

from afar? Could be more productive than from inside of a prison camp!
Calling someone a coward is quite a judgement. I guess we are supposed to take it from your post that you are brave and courageous? :eyes:

[Beaker]

34. whatever.

:eyes:

[dfitzsim]

11. Go where?

The Balkans? Russia? Ireland? Israel? Have you seen Italian politics at work? I've lived in Africa, and have friends who have lived all over Africa, and although there is much to commend and love about it, you won't find stability there. Australia? They're in this Iraq thing too -- oh, and you think we have a problem with race in this country, spend a few days in the outback. Central or South America? If you can handle the gap between the rich (which will be YOU) and the extreme poor and not get an ulcer ...

Come to think of it, go. Living over seas you'll get to see first hand the shit-storm our policies often create in developing countries. Then maybe you'll want to come back and fight the fight.

[pansypoo53219]

13. if things get intolerable

i would choose canada or scandanavia.

[dfitzsim]

20. Go to Scandanvia ...

Canada is not a bad choice except that you are bombarded by US media and dominated by the economics of the United States. Also, they have this problem where Quebec wants to be it's own country every now and again. That might drive you bonkers after a while.

Can't speak much to Scandanavia. Personally, I couldn't handle the cold, dark winters of Finland or Norway (Indiana is more than I would like for winter as it is). Good luck getting into Denmark these days:

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/06/29/1023864668455.html

[CWebster]

12. Personally I wish someone else would do it

But I notice very often everyone else feels the same, so what damn choice is there?

Personally, I would rather be in the South of France. ;-)

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

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[dfitzsim]

23. I think you missed his point ...

CWebster, as I read it, was simply saying that, "Yes, wouldn't we all rather live our lives without having to worry about this crap?" I, for one, would.

[LeahMira]

30. With us or against us, is it?

Please, then, just get out of this camp and go the the fenced-in yard where the rest of the sheeple live. Your kind are nothing but a drag to the warriors who will fight for your rights.

I imagine a lot of senior citizens and children aren't able to do much to help you, and if it comes to that you would only have to look out for them. Those of us who are fast approaching senior citizenhood would like to take ourselves out of here. We aren't sheeple, but we are past the time of being warriors. And you might want to send your children to their grandparents for a while.

I do think that the time is coming when the rest of the world will unite against the U.S. if the PNAC crowd stays in power. If that happens, those of us who leave can still help the cause.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DinahMoeHum]

16. I'll stay and fight, but I plan to take a break in 2005. . .

if G*d forbid, * wins. Go sailing out to the "little lattitudes" and see some more of the world. And I know I won't be alone; and hopefully, I'll be re-charged to come back into the fight.

As Mark Twain once said:
"Loyalty to the country always, loyalty to the government when it deserves it"


:kick:

[sangh0]

17. People are worth fighting for

and I'm surprised that needs to be posted.

[xchrom]

18. more friends of mine

are doing the same -- i mean it's just anecdotal but i suspect you are hardly alone.
there are considerable expats in italy -- and my sources tell me they love it.
i met three americans, last week, who live half the year in the south of france -- and they are doing quite well, nothing fancy mind you -- and looking to make it full time when they can.

[Jose Diablo]

24. This is my home

I have no place to go. Everything that matters to me is here. My father, his father and his father as far back as I can go are buried here. I can not leave, nor will I.

[Kitsune]

26. There's still a chance

Granted, not a BIG one. But a chance. And so long as there's a chance, I'm not going to give up.

Besides, just leaving the country won't make you safe. B*shmaster still has access to t3h n00kz.

<Arfenhouse>
B*shmaster: LOLOLOLOL I R NOOK TEH TEROIRTZzz!11111
EVILCHENY: I WANA KAST MAJIC MIZZLSZZZZ!11
</Arfenhouse>

[reprobate]

27. Beaker, I understand your frustration. A hard decision to make.

The courts are stacked against us.

The congress, with repugs and dinos outnumber us.

The media lies and the sheeple believe every word.

And who can trust the election anymore?

I think that there is an equation that we will all have to solve for ourselves. At what point does the fight become hopeless and abandoning the fight seem the way to survive. Or do we stay to the end, the point that prison camps become our future. The point that violence against us becomes their standard operating proceedure.

I'm afraid that before all that happens, america will find itself tearing itself apart. The poor, with no work, with no welfare support, will of necessity have to shift for themselves and that may translate to wandering gangs of looters and bandits. Almost inevitabe, I think, if Captain Courageous is elected in 04.

Another * term will make this a very dangerous country in which to live. I am well armed and my home protected as much as possible, but at some point will we have to decide on the fight or survival.

As for me, age has caught up with me and the fight is looking more and more hopeless, but that may just be the fact that after fighting for america with my keyboard with little to show for it I'm getting tired.

But you must know all this by now. You have made your decision and feel you must do the best for you and family. I will not fault you for that. The rest of us may have to solve the equation for ourselves.

[Monte Carlo]

28. You can have my country when you pry it from my cold, dead hands.

Short of anything but a one-party authoritarian take over (and we're not there yet), there is no way you are going to get me to leave the United States. Damn it, there is still A LOT worth fighting for in this country, and I intend to.

[salinen]

29. For all who are planning

a mass exodus, at least fight hard until the day you leave. I am also considering flight. But not before bloodying myself in 2004. If my wounds are fatal (bush wins) then hello Mexico.

[Loonman]

31. Need the Sam speech

Frodo: I can't do this Sam.

Sam: I know. It's all wrong. By rights we shouldn't even be here. But we are. It's like in the great stories, Mr. Frodo. The ones that really mattered. Full of darkness and danger, they were. And sometimes you didn't want to know the end. Because how could the end be happy? How could the world go back to the way it was when so much bad had happened? But in the end, it's only a passing thing, this shadow. Even darkness must pass. A new day will come. And when the sun shines it will shine out the clearer. Those were the stories that stayed with you. That meant something, even if you were too small to understand why. But I think, Mr. Frodo, I do understand. I know now. Folk in those stories had lots of chances of turning back, only they didn't. They kept going. Because they were holding on to something.

Frodo: What are we holding on to Sam?

Sam: That there's some good in this world, Mr. Frodo... and it's worth fighting for.

[tom_paine]

35. Hell, YES!

I love this country...always did, faults and flaws and imperfections, too.

But the depth of that feeling was not fully revealed to me until the Busheviks stole the nation, and frog-marched it forward into it's Imperial Destiny.

But destinies were made to be altered.

How terrifying must things have looked to MLK in 1960? He was hammered from all sides by the Busheviks. But he stood firm. I know the Busheviks killed him, but not before he accomplished so much. And he died on his feet, not his knees.

So did George Washington stand tall in 1780, when he was convinced all was lost. A year or so later, he was accepting Cornwallis' surrender at Yorktown.

I know there comes a moment that the Jews faced in Germany, the point at which it was time to flee or die. But that time isn't here yet in Imperial Amerika, and I'm not even sure I'd flee even it it were here.

You'd have to ask me then.

[Character Assassin]

36. Easy answer: yes. Oh, and don't let the door hit your ass on the way out

That America no longer exists, and probably never did. Being liberal in America's future is becoming more and more like being black in it's past.

Please don't quit your day job and attempt to become a writer.

[HoosierClarkie]

37. There are a lot of newcomers to help the cause... We need you too!

Beaker,
I can only imagine the efforts that you and the rest of the DUers have put forth for our country. I am here to say that your efforts have paid off. People like me that were just politically ignorant and extremely niave are seeing the light. Short story: I am a christian and the pastor of my church thinks that Rush is to be commended. I continue to go to that church because I KNOW my voice will not be heard if I leave. People are figuring it all out. Obviously, I am voting for Wes Clark and I am thankful for people like you that have paved the way.This country is turning around. We are learning hard lessons along this path. By the way... the best person I know is agnostic!Please do not throw in your towel!