Dean admits to dodging the draft

[AmericanDem]

Democrat contender admits 'dodging the draft'
By David Rennie in Washington
(Filed: 24/11/2003)

Howard Dean, the front-runner for the Democratic presidential nomination, has admitted dodging the Vietnam draft, obtaining a medical deferment for a back condition and then spending 10 months skiing.

Howard Dean

Asked if he could have served 33 years ago despite his back condition, Dr Dean told the New York Times: "I guess that's probably true. I mean, I was in no hurry to get into the military."

Dr Dean's candour may not have been wholly voluntary. With his campaign under intense scrutiny from Democratic rivals, it was only a matter of time before attacks focused on his remarkable recovery from spondylolesthesis, a painful condition caused by a misalignment of the spine.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%2F2003%2F11%2F24%2Fwdean24.xml&secureRefresh=true&_requestid=17057


Now i do not find this article to be conservative. I find it to be a very common point many folks here have already brought up. The article also goes on to state the Bush with the help of a family friend also avoided the draft by being assigned to the Guard.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AmericanDem]

yes it appears that way

and the mod went on to say why. I restarted the post based on what the mod said was missing. Did I clue you in now?

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mrgorth]

6. He edited it

so it would be acceptable. This Dean draft dodging nonsense is the most rediculous, desperate arguement yet. He showed up. They didn't want him. He went skiing. Big deal. It's like they want him to flagellate himself for the amount of time he would've served.

[WilliamPitt]

11. Editing is useless

because the source is a Murdoch rag. Said edit still contains a misleading thread title.

[jeter]

2. The draft issue will not hurt Dean

Bush is a draft dodger. The GOP will try to make some of their famous distinctions. But they won't fly if we don't let them.

Non issue.

[JohnKleeb]

4. WRONG! Bush isnt a draft dodger

Now Jeter before you flip on me, Bush is more than a draft dodger, hes a fricking deserter. Big difference.

[Tom Rinaldo]

73. Sure it will "hurt" Dean

and Clark getting relieved as NATO commander will "hurt" Clark, and I'm a Clark supporter. That doesn't mean Clark won't be able to deal with that. Bush avoiding the war "hurt" him also last time, but he still won the election. It is all a matter of degree. Attacks hurt, that's why people go to the trouble of making them. And there are defences to most attacks also. No one gets out of an election campaign unbloodied, and someone still comes out a winner, but it is foolish to not see attacks coming. Bush won't attack Dean personally on the issue of military service, others will for him. Mostly they will try to keep that attack on Dean in play via sympathetic media commentary hammering. Regarding service during Viet Nam Bush will always say he served in the National Guard, he did his duty. On the surface, meaning at the headline and first paragrph level of the story, before any deeper "digging" for dirt takes place, Bush comes out ahead in a simple comparison. Most people pay no attention beyond the headline level.

This isn't a knock out issue against Dean. Dean is a fighter and he won't be bullied by it. He won't let the focus of the race, if he is the nominee, get stuck on that non issue, but it does undercut some of the ammunition the Democrats might otherwise have used against Bush as a "Chickenhawk".

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[maddezmom]

5. please stop

from a fellow supporter of Clark....it got locked because it has been posted and discussed over and over. :(

[AmericanDem]

21. stop what?

I just found this article today and it listed some things I have never read before. Hey i'm just trying to contribute here. Please don't tell me what I should post.

[RetroLounge]

39. So go find and post a positive Dean article.

or are you just trying to contribute based on your agenda?

It's a non-issue. The RW will twist it, they don't need your help.

[AmericanDem]

64. Why would I do that?

Take the emotional part of yourself away from what is being said here. The issues are being discussed, facts are put forward, people then make an opinion based on that information. That is whats going on. If you have a hard time dealing with that, perhaps these are things you should personally work on.

Don't try to stifle others because their thought process doesn't match yours.

[Cocoa]

8. I liked Dean's response at the last debate

if it's an issue for people, so be it.

With me, as a Dean "hater", the draft issue is a total non-issue. Zero influence on my opinion of him.

The only thing I find interesting is the differnce that the Daily Howler points out b/w the NYT's coverage of Dean and Bush. I find that VERY interesting, maybe something that Dean can comment about.

[demnan]

9. My brother went to Vietnam

and I wouldn't judge anyone who did anything they could to avoid going over to that war. Shows intelligence.

[HoosierClarkie]

10. Didn't Dean say in the Iowa debate that...

"if it is an issue so be it" !:shrug: Isn't that proof enough? I think it is a valid question.

[Kahuna]

15. He did say that. It will come back to haunt him too.

nt

[aeon flux]

12. Why doesn't Dean counterattack?

what better time to bring up the shrub's AWOL status in the National Guard?

[NicoleM]

13. HE DID NOT DODGE THE DRAFT.

He may have "dodged" military service, but he did not dodge the draft. He received his draft notice, and he showed up for his physical. That would be the OPPOSITE of dodging the draft.

[eissa]

16. Exactly

If you respond to a draft notice, you ARE NOT DODGING. My cousin, on the other hand, flew to Canada and stayed with family rather than respond to his notice. That is dodging (and I'm glad he did).

[HoosierClarkie]

17. Good point. n/t

[JohnKleeb]

18. as long as he aint no hawk and he opposed Vietnam

I see nothin wrong with this. Although if I had a bad back the last thing I would do is go skiing but I am overly catious so there.

[VOX]

52. Another amen.

Precisely stated.

Thanks --

[dfong63]

19. that headline is misleading

the story's headline is misleading. nowhere in the story does it quote Dean saying that he had dodged the draft, admitting that he'd engaged in any subterfuge in order to avoid serving. it only quotes him as saying that he "could have served despite his back condition" and that he was "in no hurry" to enlist. the behavior described here is not draft dodging, and Dean did not "admit" it.

that said, i would have no problem voting for a real, admitted draft dodger. i voted for Clinton once. and i'd much rather vote for a draft dodger than for someone who went over "like a good patriotic American" and followed orders and killed innocent people in an immoral war.

it's funny how so few people seem to be bothered by the contradiction of a man becoming a hero by killing innocent people. yes, Kerry and Clark earned their medals by killing people who were only guilty of trying to defend their homeland against an unprovoked invasion.

[Hep]

22. Simply amazing

They're deleting messages from people pointing out how old and useless and repetitive this thread is, and letting the thread itself continue. I'm out of here until this shit goes away. I can't believe it.

[CWebster]

23. Why is this thread still here?

and everyone who questioned it deleted?

[JohnKleeb]

26. good question

BTW the whole matter rather is trival, Dean opposed Vietnam I read didn't he, it's not like he was like Bush and the chickenhawks and supported the war effort but didnt serve. What he did was typical of many young men at the time.

[Hep]

29. Makes you wonder.

n/t

[EarlG]

77. Locking

Since so many of the responses have been deleted or are otherwise inflammatory, I'm locking this thread even though it was started first.

If you wish to continue discussion of this topic, you may do it here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=778557

And please remember we have rules of conduct on this message board that we expect you to follow.

EG (DU Admin)

[mandyky]

24. Receiving a deferment and draft dodging are 2 different animals

What disturbs me more about this article is this -

<snip>
The screen then carries the words: "Some are now attacking the President for attacking the terrorists." It then switches to: "Some call for us to retreat." Republican officials confirmed this was a reference to Dr Dean, and his calls for American troops to be brought home.
<snip>

Dean does not want to bring troops home until we have international troops to replace them. I think this rag has Dean mixed up with Kucinich or Sharpton.

As for the medical deferment, marching, running and carrying 75 pound packs, really would have been different from skiing for someone with a back problem. He never claimed he was bed-ridden. Yeesh!!

[lindashaw]

25. At least he went on to school and became a doctor, Clinton became

a president, while Cheney became...I don't know what he became, and George Bush became a dry drunk. Anyway, I don't think he dodged. He used means that were available to him. I wish many more had had the means to do the same. They might be alive today. What a sad era.

[Bandit]

27. It just goes to show there is some consistency to Dean

He was opposed to the Vietnam war and didn't wish to participate. He found a way out of it. A dodge if you prefer. So did all the Chicken Hawks on the Republican side only they say they support both wars. The Vietnam war and the Iraq war although they chose to Dodge both wars. It just increases my esteem of Dean.

[FredScuttle]

31. Please explain to me...

how dutifully reporting for induction and having the Army, after reviewing verified documentation, classify you as physically unable to serve and grant you a bonafide exemption from military service a "dodge"??

[Bandit]

40. Legally it isn't but in reality he went skiing right after his induction

physical. There seems to be a problem with that. I don't have a problem with it but obviously there are those that do or there wouldn't be a thread about it. If he was too sick to serve but well enough to ski. :shrug: An apparent problem

[mrgorth]

45. (bangs desk)

So there should be a list of things he wasn't allowed to do while the war was on?

[Scott Lee]

28. Is there a reason this old chestnut still has shelf life at DU?

Considering it's a lie itself?

[Octafish]

30. Dean candidacy spells "Four more years of Bushit."

No matter how much spinning Trippi does or how many talking points get spanned to every blog from here to netzero, Dean dodged the draft. That makes him a coward.

Normally, being a coward is no big thing. In a President, that is not a good — especially when Rove will feature the terra war 24/7. Why do you think he makes Bush wear the cowboy belt buckles and boots all the time for?

[Nashyra]

33. Why not just say

he didn't do anything different than *. When asked after he got into the cushy guard spot with lowest possible score and bolting to the front of the line of more qualified he checked the "box" No if he would willing to go to Vietnam, he then squandered the training by not reporting to a flight physical and thereby wasting tax payer money because he became ineligble to fly so what does he do he just does not show up. These candidates that did not go into the service or Vietnam should bring this up constantly until the * has to make his military records made public. We can then compare them to the Generals or to Kerry's or to Clelands and let the public decide.

[AmericanDem]

36. excellent point

Let the public decide based on the facts. Not by what they have been told.

[Diogenes2]

34. Cowardice

There are many, many other reasons for not wishing to serve in an unjust war other than COWARDICE, my friend. I envy the utter simplicity of your black & white viewpoint.

[Octafish]

A brave man objects to the war in public.

Cowards keep their mouths shut and hope no one asks them what they think.

Case in point, Cassius Clay, before he went to prison for objecting to being drafted and classified 1-A, without a physical, said:

"I ain't got nothing against them Vietcong."

and

"None of them Vietcong ever called me (racist epithet)."

Clay gave up two years of his life for his beliefs — two years form his prime, when he was The Greatest! He converted to Islam and is now known as Muhammed Ali.

Dean got out of the draft and then he didn't say "Boo" as he left town. In fact, the record shows he kept his opinions to himself as he celebrated his bad back on the ski slopes of Vale for 80-some days that same winter he dodged the draft.

[AmericanDem]

50. Bingo

outa sight outa mind. Until you run for president. so now let him try to talk his way out of it.

[NicoleM]

61. Since we're getting dirty. . .

maybe a coward also votes for a war and then opposes it as soon as it's not popular anymore.

Also, please explain to me how showing up for your draft physical constitutes dodging the draft.

[Octafish]

65. Dean showed up with a note and an X-ray.

Not many people had that kind of forsight. What makes it draft-dodging: Dean's back was healthy enough to go skiing that winter for 80-days. It also continued its miraculous healing when he hiked down the length of Vermont as governor.

BTW: My cousin, a urology resident at the time, showed up for his draft physical in 1969. He didn't think to bring an X-ray or a note and he ended up as a front-line doc. It wasn't MASH for him, he was usually in the most forward area and narrowly escaped getting killed more than once.

My cuz says he's not brave. He tells the story of when he called his wife from Hawaii and said he didn't want to get on the plane bound for South Vietnam. She said if he didn't get on that plane, she wouldn't be waiting for him when he got back. He came back, thank God. They're still married.

[NicoleM]

74. "Dean showed up"

Exactly. He didn't dodge a damn thing. HE SHOWED UP. He didn't show up enthusiastically ready to sign up and ship out, no doubt about it. But he showed up. Which, as I said before, is the OPPOSITE of dodging something.

Are you a doctor? Have you examined Dr. Dean's back? What qualifies you to judge that he was capable of carrying a heavy pack through the jungle for miles and miles? Is it not possible that the ARMY DOCTOR who looked at him and his x-rays was in a better position to decide whether he could do what the Army wanted him to do?

[bobbyboucher]

42. I cannot help but wonder

about the logic of all these "Dean nomination means Bush victory" prognosticators. Are you going to vote for Bush or are you going to stay home if Dean gets nominated?

[Octafish]

48. Of course I'd vote for Dean, if he's the nominee. What Democrat wouldn't?

...As a Democrat, I want to beat Bush, first and foremost. If Dean is the candidate, so be it. I'll vote for him and do all the other things. His faults, this being but one, will be amplified a million-fold by Rove and the mighty Wurlitzer.

Because you're new, you probably don't know I've stated that before. In fact, many more of my DU Friends support Dean and Clark than support Kerry, my horse.

Three reasons I support John Kerry: I think he has the best chance of beating George Bush. He also, I believe, would make the best President. He would go after the BFEE (Bush Family Evil Empire), or, as I prefer to call these gangsters, the Bush Organized Crime Family.

[bobbyboucher]

56. Thank you, and props for

at least saying who you would vote for. I really think that most Gore voters are not going to go over to Dimson. I just cannot see it. Sure some will, but not en masse. I do think there are a fair number of Bush voters that are pissed and will vote against the idiot or not vote.

I believe the real prize is your average non-voter. The not-yet- registered and the registered-but-don't-vote-yet/anymore. I think the Republicans have all but maxed their not-voters already. Think religious right/bigots/selfish. The motherload is out there, it is liberal or center left, and it wants someone with a chip and some ideas. I think it has to be a runaway train like Dean or Clark. The others have been there so long it looks status quo. JMHO.

"Come on aboard I promise you won't hurt the horse, we feed him well, we treat him well. There's lots of room for you on the baaaanndwagon."

[Media_Lies_Daily]

47. Octafish, I normally agree with your posts, particularly those on JFK...

...but calling Dean a coward is going way too far, IMHO.

Dean showed up at the draft board with his x-rays, and he was rejected by the doctor. It was the doctor's call. Period.

Additionally, in 1971 America's participation in the Vietnam War was winding down. Had Dean walked into the draft board in 1968, and based on the needs of the military at that point in time, they probably would have drafted him. Again, that decision would have been the doctor's to make.

Here's the true definition of cowardice, IMHO. It's getting your daddy to put you at the head of the line of 500 other people waiting to get into a Texas Air National Guard unit in 1968. It's being the party animal in the States for five years (AWOL for one of those years) while more than 30,000 young Americans died in yet another senseless war. It's getting caught for cocaine use during that AWOL period from the military and getting your daddy to bail you out by putting you in a community service program in Houston. I could go on but writing about Coke-N-Smoke depresses me.

[Octafish]

51. I appreciate and respect what you say, Media_Lies_Daily...

... and if Dean is the nominee, I'll do everything in my power to get him elected the 44th President of the United States. That includes using my time, treasure and whatever talents are in my tank if he's our horse.

That said, I don't want him to be the nominee. The reason? He'll get smoked in the general election. I've seen this pattern before, DU Friend Media_Lies_Daily. Someone described it as forgetting the game is played between the 40-yard lines. Dean is moving it to one side's 35.

What that means is a populist-sounding candidate builds up the hope of the faithful and does whatever needs to be done to divide the base and conquer the party. In so doing, he alienates the middle 20-percent.

We need a horse who'll convert that middle to our side. It's the only we'll beat Dieboldt and the rest of the BBV crooks that are but one division of the BFEE.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

55. Glad to see that you didn't take offense to my post...

...and I have say that I'm personally conflicted on the candidate to support. But, like you, I'll do whatever I can to get one of our guys elected.

Yes, we need a Seabiscuit that looks them in the eye and outruns them all at any distance.

I just hope the race is allowed to be run in 2004...I'm getting too many weird vibes lately.

[Zorra]

32. Vietnam was a pointless, BS war.

Dodging the draft during the Vietnam War shows a high degree of intelligence and common sense. I would have done it, too. I love my country, but I will not die for corporate greed.

Tell me, would you have died for these two crooks?

[formactv]

35. Misaligned?

I had a worse back condition than that from falling off a 3 story roof, and for the 7 years I had it I was a roofer,and rode my Honda to Arizona from Vermont once. A misalignment is not always debilitating. Getting it corrected was a major improvement, but a young man's body can take a lot.

[AmericanDem]

41. what gets me is...

The way Dean was so able to go skiing and enjoy all of his privileged life. While guys like Clark and Kerry were in the bullet fire under the banner of the USA.

I know I'm not alone in this thinking either. It smells to high hell!

[Beaker]

68. tough shit.

Dean was given the certification he recieved because he deserved it. The Army decided that it didn't want to take a chance that the condition could develop into something more serious. Training soldiers costs money, and they didn't want to invest in the young Howard Dean.

Because of this, what would you expect the young man to do? Dress in sackcloth and bemoan his predicament?

Everyone has the right to live their life as they see fit, and to the best of their ability.

[AmericanDem]

69. tough shit?

Skiing is great isn't it. Who would want to miss out on that.

[Beaker]

71. exactly.

I guess some of these posts has helped you get a more realistic handle on Gov. Dean's situation, vis-a-vis "dodging" :eyes: the draft.

The Army didn't want him.
In the USA, you are free to live your life as you see fit, within the law, and are entitled to engage in any legal activities you see fit, and are physically capable to do.

welcome back to sanity.

[AmericanDem]

75. and what better way...

then to take time off and ski. :hurts:

[CWebster]

37. Clark accused of starting WW3 in Pristina

Maybe someone should start a thread titled that.

[AmericanDem]

46. Whats stopping you

Start it yourself, so you can see how silly a smear that was also.

[CWebster]

49. I don't start smear threads.

like you.

[AmericanDem]

53. Please

This info I found online is based on Deans own words and actions. The last thing I will do is smear anyone. If you are having a hard time dealing with this info on Dean I'm sorry. I feel the American voter has a right to get all the info they can from every source they can so as to make a accurate decision on the next president of the USA.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AmericanDem]

63. kidsillegal codemakeRemote('duboard.php?az=emotion_table')

lifelong Democrat here kid, and GOD DAMNED PROUD OF IT!!!


:kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick: :kick:

[AmericanDem]

67. what is this about

hmmmm

[Media_Lies_Daily]

38. What Coke-n-Smoke did was far worse, IMHO...

He and Lloyd Bentson's son jumped to the head of a list of about 500 other people waiting to get into the same Air National Guard unit. And then, if that wasn't enough, he was allowed to skip Officer Candidate School and was made a junior officer out of thin air. He also apparently decided to continue at least one of his college habits. He wound up refusing to take a physical in 1972, the first year that physicals started to include routine drug tests. The Guard basically told him, no physical, no flying.

Somewhere in this exact time-frame, Mr. Feathersword got arrested on a drug charge, specifically cocaine. His dad fixed it with a judge who was personal friend and and Junior was assigned to do community service with Project P.U.L.L in Houston, Texas. Coincidentally, Just-Call-Me-Irresponsible was AWOL from his Texas guard duty for over a year. He tried to pull a fast one later and claimed that he was actually assigned to an Alabama Guard unit while working on a political campaign. But that story was whacked when the most senior guy in the Alabama guard system at that time stated that Junior was never in his command. There is also a document in his file that indicates that Junior was transferred to an administrative command in Colorado shortly before his discharge in 1973, 10 months before his contractual obligation should have ended.

Meanwhile, while Wild Man was being the AWOL party animal, the following deaths were being reported in Vietnam:

1968 - 16,592
1969 - 11,616
1970 - 6,081
1971 - 2,357
1972 - 641
1973 - 168

TOTAL - 37,455

By the time 21-year-old Howard Dean visited his draft board with his x-rays, it was 1971 and America's participation in the Vietnam War was winding down. I'm pretty sure that if the doctor who examined him felt Dean could serve, and the needs of the military demanded it, Dean would have been drafted or last seen hustling down to the nearest National Guard office. It was the doctor's call all the way.

[eissa]

44. Wow, great info, thanks n/t

[izzie]

43. Well I was living in the middle of an armed camp when all this

was going on (Charleston, SC) and even the service were trying to get out of going to Vietnam. Scuddlebutt was not to wear your uniform when you protected. The hospitals were full of men with out legs and very sick.Even the service was waking up to the lies the govt were telling us.We talked of sending our oldest boy to Canada.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

54. It was a very bad time....

...my WWII vet Dad talked me out of leaving college after my first year of school (1969-1970) and enlisting. He knew a lot of officers in the military and they were telling Dad privately that Vietnam was the most screwed up thing they had ever seen. Dad and I spent a lot of time one night talking about it and he convinced me to hang in there for one more year of school. Little did I know that one year would stretch into six more years where the time just seemed to fly by.

The next year, I was in the second draft lottery and received a fairly high number. Then I really made sure of not being drafted when I had a car accident and was given 4F status (physically unable) by my local draft board.

And do you know, for some reason I was like a moth drawn to a flame, because I enlisted when I finished college in 1976!! Whoa!! I know, I know...WHAT was I thinking?? Great decision, though...I learned a lot about self-discipline and getting a lot done in a short amount of time.

I think about the Vietnam years quite a bit...had friends in high school that never came back. And the ones that did return took a while to get right again...a few never did fully return. I served with quite a few guys that had been there...some told me that the military was the safest place for them...and for society as well.

It was a very bad time.

And now another generation of Americans are living through events in foreign lands that will become the stuff of nightmares. This will be their "very bad time" in years to come.

[Think Globally]

57. Would you have respected him more if he'd killed innocent Vietnamese?

He resisted being sent to KILL people! He did it legally! What's wrong with choosing NOT to be a part of the War Machine? The only people that would object to this are neofascists that wouldn't vote for him anyway. This is a non-issue!

[killbotfactory]

58. Bush gets a pass on everything up until he "found god" at 40

as "youthful indiscretions", But they're going to try and hang Dean with a decision he made when he was in his early twenties?

This is bullshit.

[LoZoccolo]

60. Anyone who didn't enlist was in "no hurry to get into the military."

Why aren't we going after them?

This would include anyone who got drafted.

[ACK]

62. Why are we buying into this crap?

Dean said he was in no hurry to get into the military...so what?

Cheney had better things to do and Bush went AWOL for a year.

He did not know if it was true or not but he was bottom of the list because of his verifible medical condition.

He did not dodge anything. He never had to make the choice to cut and run or even worry about getting fake deferrments.

This is just nuts. I am leaning more for Clark right now but I still think this is nutter repuke smear talk.

[ibegurpard]

66. Nice spin.

What a load of shit.

[AmericanDem]

70. Spin? I see Facts.

:shrug:

[Hep]

72. It's cool

Whatever you want to believe is fine. And whoever you cite as your sources of FACTS is fine. Rupert Murdoch can't be ALL bad, right? I mean, he let's The Simpsons stay on the air, as long as they don't make fun of Fox anymore.

[AmericanDem]

76. My sources are...

What I read. Until I added this article, I had NO idea who owned what, as I'm sure most did't either. So that has already helped others.

What I try to relate to others are things that I feel very personally about. I'm in NO way trying to belittle others or tear others down. If you can not except other views , that is something you need to deal with. I will continue to post what I feel others would like to know.