Whether or not Dean "dodged the draft" is not the problem...

[Tyler Durden]

...The problem is how is this going to play in the West, The South, and the Bible Belt.

IMHO, as someone who took the lottery numbers and did not apply for a deferment, I say it is a matter of semantics. Howard Dean COULD have served, no matter what we felt then or feel now about that ghastly conflict, and getting out essentially with "back pain" then going skiing looks BAD no matter how you shake it out.

Now given the circumstances, and seeing the chances are better than 50/50 that Howard Dean will be the Democratic Candidate (I may want Clark, but as a Socialist I must bow to reality) how about some constructive ideas on how to combat this, REMEMBERING that to counter it in a Presidential Debate next fall with some version of "Well, Bush DESERTED!" will look like the last word in NEENER NEENER NEENER and likely work against us.

Suggestions?

[vi5]

1. I don't know that there is a way to deal with this...

As mentioned on here time and again, PERCEPTION is the most important thing.

Bush evading duty during vietnam is not seen as bad because he pays lip service to supporting the military and propping them up even if only with his rhetoric.

Clinton's evading duty and Dean's are and will be seen as bad because they are realistic and pragmatic about the role of military in our country as being necessary, strong, and in most cases good, but also in need to tweaking and redirecting in the face of the new foes of this century. People like Clinton and Dean recognize that we are not fighting the cold war or communism so paying lip service to the military in that same type of role is idiotic.

However, that doesn't negate the fact that the bulk of american voters won't see it this nuanced. They will see this in a black and white "Bush=pro military, Dean=anti military".

[NewYorkerfromMass]

9. Dean has done many things which appear "anti-military"

the only thing he's done to counter that appearance is saying he won't cut the pentagon budget.

[Scott Lee]

80. In an age of military-gone-wild, that's a GOOD thing

In case you've forgotten, we're trying to get away from our slide to a fascist junta, not embrace one.

[DemBones DemBones]

103. Military service doesn't equate with a fascist junta.

Brokaw came down on Dean the other afternoon "You went out and skied the moguls. I've skied the moguls myself and I know how hard that is on your back." We'll be hearing that again, especially if Howard gets the nomination.

I don't see the media starting to tell all about Bush not finishing his tour with TANG. If they did, it can still be spun that he did serve 4 1/2 years and was excused for that last 18 months. And the media convinced everyone he was a leader after 9/11. People think he's taking care of us. Even if they're mad at Bush over other issues, few are going to vote for someone with no military experience.

[Racenut20]

25. I find it hard

To put Dean and Clinton in the same breath, but that's just me I guess.

[lastliberalintexas]

34. Me too

It's an insult to Dean to put him in the same sentence as Clinton.

After all, Dean didn't lose Congres while he was a sitting president, nor did he hand the South over to the repubs on the gun issue and cost us the election of many, many faithful and experienced Dem elected officials.

[sangh0]

2. In addition

Dean's remark about how we won't always have the strongest military in the world isn't going to help.

[vi5]

6. Yeah, kind of what I was getting at in my post...

We can argue on this board until we are blue in the face about whether Dean was right or wrong about that (i think he was right) but the fact is that most americans will add all this top-line superficial stuff up and make a judgement as to him being anti-military.

Again, not saying whether this is right or wrong or what. Just that adding all this stuff up is going to make for a nice handy package for the gop to send out and publicize.

[blm]

21. send out over the airwaves 40 times a day every day for months.

And they'll use video of his own words to do the job.

[Scott Lee]

12. Why? It happens to be true.

Do you want Dean to lie?

I can never get a straight answer on this, for some reason.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

16. Because it is bad politics

and bad policy. To illustrate: Would you have rather the Germans developed the A-Bomb before we did?

[Scott Lee]

63. Is it "good politics" to lie?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

69. It is bad policy

To illustrate: Would you have rather the Germans developed the A-Bomb before we did?

[sangh0]

71. Keeping quiet is not lying

So Dean can keep his papers locked up.

[Scott Lee]

81. Deception = lie. Or have you been ignoring Bush?

"Keeping quiet" about something this important would be equivalent to lying to the American people.

Do you want Dean to lie to the American people?

[sangh0]

87. So are you going to defend Dean

and how he has hidden his papers?

[Scott Lee]

116. Let's see all your personal information, please.

Just post it here on DU. Unless you are afraid?

[sangh0]

27. Dean should keep quiet

Believe it or not, honesty doesn't require you say everything that's on your mind.

I don't know why so many Deanies seem to think that "It's true" is an argument that wins elections.

[sangh0]

93. Scott Lee, are you still there?

Cat got your tongue?

[Forkboy]

95. I hate when people dont answer me

[Scott Lee]

115. Yes, are you? And why do you run from the debate?

[Tyler Durden]

3. This is IMPORTANT, people.

Bush defeated Gore with bullshit like "Al says he invented the internet."

This is going to look REALLY BAD. If you want to see a "Kid Gloves" piece on this, here's NYT:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/22/politics/campaigns/22DRAF.html?ex=1070082000&en=a4240500ff458bcb&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

Now since it is LIKELY that Dean will run against Bush, HOW DO WE FIX THIS?

[curse10]

8. we don't let dean get the nomination

that's how.

Clark is still in it. And I think Clark has a better mass appeal than Dean, so don't count him out.

[Tyler Durden]

STOP IT.

This is counterproductive. Any tar stains ALL of the Democrats. If Dean makes good here, it only helps the rest of us.

[Scott Lee]

15. The obsessed Dean haters don't care.

All that matters to them is smearing Dean, even when it means helping Bush.

Aim at foot, pull trigger.

[Tyler Durden]

22. Will you QUIT?????

I want CLARK and I think the best thing for the party is for DEAN to come out of this without hurt or foul.

This is not the time to throw brickbats. FIX the leak, Dean will sink with this and take others with him.

He's the frontrunner. Do you hear a sucking sound? I do.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

13. I certainly haven't abandoned that plan

nor have I given up on Kerry, as much as the GOP would like us to.

[Scott Lee]

65. Face reality. Dean will get the nomination.

So the question is - will the Dean hate give way to:

1. Dean support.

2. Bush support.



choose one.

[sangh0]

72. Congratulations!

You've just won an award for the Funniest Subject Line.

[Scott Lee]

82. And you have won "Most Empty Response"

please claim your trophy at the nearest 7-11.

[retyred]

105. Hey! It could happen

when......


retyred in fla
“good night paul, wherever you are”
So I read the book

[curse10]

4. It's not going to play very well

It's a liability- no matter how you look at it.

I don't know if there is a way out of it.

[mrgorth]

5. IMHO

I don't understand why he wouldn't say that he showed up and they didn't want him. "I couldn't just swim to 'nam". Hell, people in the south won't like him because he skied...period.

[sangh0]

28. Because

that argument leaves out an important fact, and that will make people think Dean is hiding something.

[mrgorth]

31. What important fact is that?

What he did INSTEAD is not important. It's his choice. If he chose to look at porn for 3 years it's up to him. He couldn't go.

[Tyler Durden]

33. OK, I'm going to play rePUKE for a moment....

Please excuse the transformation.

"I cannot believe that any Democratic Candidate has the GALL to criticize the Commander in Chief when they took x-rays and doctor's reports into an induction center with the aim of avoiding military service. Then after getting deferred, he takes a ski trip. This is typical of Liberal lack of integrity: they want to impune the President when he actually was in the service and raise up as a leader a man who snuck out of the draft."

Does this sound familiar? Do you want to hear this? THIS is why we can no longer use the AWOL and other shit against Bush.

If you think that's the message, Dean is the wrong guy. If you stay on message and he gets nominated, we still might have a chance to oust Bush.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

35. Damn good impersonation

and completely excusable given our dire situation! :thumbsup:

[mrgorth]

38. I suppose I cannot put myself in those shoes

I apologize but I don't have the capicity to dumb myself down like that. I look at it logically. He showed up. They said he couldn't go. He did what he wanted. I simply can't make myself think like one of these militaristic flag wavers and no, this is no criticism of you or your post. It's just an explanation. I honestly think they'll dig up something just as bad on anyone. It may not be the same thing but it could easily be just as bad. Also, I don't think they type who speaks like you mention would ever vote dem.

[Cronus Protagonist]

97. Bush went AWOL

...and avoiding the draft is a youthful indiscretion, you know.

Click Here To Find NO MICHAEL JACKSON Buttons, Stickers & Magnets

[sangh0]

42. The important fact

is that Dean brought his medical records.

[mrgorth]

43. Sorry

doesn't bother me. If they said get on the bus he would've gotten on the bus. He did nothing wrong.

[sangh0]

47. Sorry but that's irrelevant

The issue being discussed is how Dean's actions will play in the South and West where military service is considered important. Though your opinions and vote counts, they are not the subject of this thread.

[mrgorth]

49. Yeah, I get that

I'm just explaining why I'm not jettisoning my support for Dean because you all think he's unelectible.

[sangh0]

60. I got that

What I don't understand is why you think your continued support for Dean is worthy of a post in this thread.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sangh0]

88. If we are discussing possible accusations and rebuttals

why are you posting your reasons for not caring if Dean is a draft-dodger?

[mrgorth]

92. Becaaaaaauuuuuuuse

HE'S NOT A GODAMNED DRAFT DODGER!!!

[sangh0]

94. Oy vey

Do you really think that responding with "He's not a draft dodger" is going to work with people whoa re already persuaded that he is a draft dodger?

YOu are doing everything but speak about the issue of this thread.

[FredScuttle]

118. Let me slow it down to see if you can fully grasp this:

1) the previous poster responded with "he's not a draft-dodger", not to convince those swing voters in the South of the real story, but to remind people like you WHO SHOULD KNOW BETTER not to call Dean a "draft dodger". Because he didn't dodge the draft, as you know.

2) the issue of this thread, as I see it, is how will the perception (wrongly assumed, I argue) among swing voters that Dean dodged the draft (aided, I'm sure, by the coming avalanche of GOP smears and distortions through its various organs in the "liberal" media) will play out. The point's been made several times here and in other threads, probably better than I will do so here:

- the majority of swing voters will have the common sense to understand that Dean (should he receive the nomination) received an exemption and, besides, will not count this as a crucial factor in their choice of a candidate.
- as for those voters who will cite this as their reason not to vote for Dean (should he be the nominee), we can reasonably assume that these are mouth-breathing cretins who get their news from Faux and political opinions from the Hillbilly Heroin Highness and wouldn't vote for a Dem even if he wiped out 10,000 North Vietnamese soldiers. So, in a word, fuck 'em

[DinahMoeHum]

7. "George, where were YOU in '72??"

coutesy of www.awolbush.com

I think it IS proper to counter with such a question. * clearly did not fulfill his obligations to the ANG once he signed and committed to it.

His Poppy pulled the strings to get him in, he essentially screwed around, and then his Poppy pulled the strings to get him out.

* has this history of running away from everything and it needs to be screamed out.


:kick:

[Tyler Durden]

14. YES it is Proper to ask this....

...and YES if we dwell on Bush and AWOL we might as well give up NOW. This is a non-issue for Joe Bag-O-Donuts, and that is who we have to win.

[DinahMoeHum]

23. Not if "Joe Bag-O-Donuts" has a kid in the military. . .

or a relative. Not if Joe is a miltary veteran himself. Not after this war in Iraq, when it is becoming obvious that * couldn't give a fat fig about him or his kids or relatives in the military.

The military vote is up for grabs next year, and we'd be fools to write them off.

:kick:

[Tyler Durden]

26. And if WE scream AWOL and THEY scream DRAFT DODGER....

...who do you think will WIN?

Bush.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

29. Right. Because Bush "wore the uniform"

and that goes a long way in a lot of minds. Although the Kerry crowd says... :puke:

[Papa]

19. I agree with you

Just throw it back at 'em. Scream about hypocrisy. No problem with that in my book. Smacks of common sense to me.

[Tyler Durden]

10. How about first he uses the Thanksgiving Break to advantage...

...and shuts up about it.

The media is still using Michael Jackson to draw attention away from Politics. The rePukes are smart enough to realize that if they start a feeding frenzy, they will get bitten also.

How does Dean counter this? CAN he counter this? My spin is he MUST, and SOON, or he is virtually handing the election to Bush.

Not matter how much the Dean Posse loves his politics, he has to take SOME part of the West, South and Bible Belt or WE WILL LOSE.

[Scott Lee]

11. Play up the "Chickenhawk" angle

FACT: Almost no one was excited, then, about the prospect of getting shipped off to Vietnam.

FACT: Pursuant to above - it is completely logical and expected that candidates for a draft present all the reasons they shouldn't go to Vietnam, to the draft board.

FACT: It's up to the draft board in the end to make the decision. In Dean's case, THEY decided to give him a 1Y deferment. That was not in Deans power to give himself a deferment.

FACT: Dean never publically agitated for war war war. In fact he has been vociferously against it - mostly in the case of the Iraq war.

FACT: Many conservatives and Republicans who got similar deferrments HAVE agitated for war war war. THIS is the angle. They are blatant cowards and hypocrites whereas Dean has been philosophically consistent.

Can it be presented in a more concise way for quick public consumption?

[sangh0]

17. Clueless

There are lot of people, particularly in the South, who absolutely will NOT vote for anyone who has not demonstrated complete loyalty to the military. There are many who would, and have, hid information about their medical conditions in order to serve. Pointing out what other people did or did not do is not going to gain one vote for Dean from these people. At best, it will only prevent them from voting for the other guy.

[lastliberalintexas]

41. And they're NOT voting for us anyway!!!

Jesus H. Christ could be our nominee and those people would vote against him because he's a peacenik! Why do you want us to cater to people who aren't going to vote for us no matter who our nominee is? *That* is what's clueless.

[sangh0]

44. Bullshit

A lot of these people WOULD vote for a Dem, but they won't vote for someone they think of as a draft-dodger. I suggest you use a thinner brush when talking about the electorate.

[lastliberalintexas]

50. I'm not talking about the electorate

At least not in general. This thread is directed at us targeting a very, very specific portion of the electorate- one that won't vote Dem anyway. The people for whom service in Vietnam is *still* a major sticking point are not going to vote for us on general grounds. They don't need a specific reason to hate a Dem nominee- they'll do so simply b/c s/he's a Dem!

I'd rather us spend our time working on traditional Dem voters who haven't voted in years and the 50% of the population that doesn't even bother to vote and getting them to the polls. The return on that investment of time is far greater than worrying about a few people who don't like us anyway.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this, because you'll never convince me that it is worth our political capital to court those people at the expense of the rest of the populace.

[sangh0]

62. Why not? It's the subject of this thread

This thread is directed at us targeting a very, very specific portion of the electorate- one that won't vote Dem anyway

No it's not. The thread is directed at the South and the West. That covers millions of voters, many of them Dems, and many of them Independents. Many of whom won't vote for a draft-dodger.

Do you honestly believe that there aren't any Dems and Independents who would not vote for a draft-dodger?

[lastliberalintexas]

67. So everyone in the South will vote against

someone who is a "draft dodger"? Glad to know how I am supposed to vote from now on. :eyes:


"The thread is directed at the South and the West."

Yep, and the majority of voters in those areas don't give a flying fig about service in Vietnam. There are other issues that are far more important to them. And the ones who do vote on that issue don't like Dems anyway.

Yes, there are some people who won't vote for a "draft dodger"- but those are the same people who won't vote for us anyway. Those people do not represent the majority of people in the South or West, and to say so or even imply as much is stereotyping at its worst. Continue to stereotype the people in those areas, and we'll continue to lose them to the repubs.

[sangh0]

75. Do you have sense of proportion

or is it everything or nothing with you?

We are not discussing EVERYONE in the South (or West). We are talking about those Dems and Independents who would consider voting for a Dem, but will not vote for one they think is a draft-dodger. This has been stated clearly several times in this thread, including the initial post. Are you being intentionally obtuse?

Yes, there are some people who won't vote for a "draft dodger"- but those are the same people who won't vote for us anyway.

NO they're not, and repeating that they are doesn't make you any more persuasive.

[Scott Lee]

66. Wait a minute - weren't you against playing to "those" Southerners?

I thought you and your cadre screamed at Dean for reaching out to such Southerners.

Have you changed your tune?

[sangh0]

76. Nope

The people who won't vote for a draft dodger are not all confederate flag lovers.

Try again

[Scott Lee]

83. Are you denying that you were among those that screamed at Dean

Over the confed flag issue?

Please say yes. I have logs :)

[sangh0]

89. I criticized Dean for not apologizing right away

and for using "clumsy" language.

[Scott Lee]

112. Apologizing for wanting to woo Southern working class types?

Are you nuts, or do we have a lot of votes we can afford to lose?

[Scott Lee]

117. sangh0, are you still there?

I hate it when people won't answer me.

cat got your tongue?

[Tyler Durden]

18. NO.

And as real and important as that is, WE CANNOT USE IT.

When we piss on Bush's Character, even though he has none, WE LOSE.

Our issues are Economy BAD, Iraq BAD, Jobs BAD. STAY ON MESSAGE and do some damage control.

[sangh0]

30. STAY ON MESSAGE!

I'm sorry for shouting, but it needs shouting.

[Scott Lee]

68. Have you forgotten the point of your own thread?

Let me remind you. The issue was Howard Dean's excusal from military service in Vietnam and how it might play in the South and West. YOU then asked:

how about some constructive ideas on how to combat this (Dean's 1Y deferment),

Now you are saying we have to avoid it all together?

Please clarify.

[sangh0]

77. No, he hasn't

Now you are saying we have to avoid it all together?

Please clarify.

No, he's saying that the AWOL issue is, in his opinion, an ineffective way to respond. The room to argue that point, but he is not saying you should suggest responses. You just shouldn't think that any and all suggestions will escape criticism.

[Scott Lee]

84. You and facts aint too friendly - read the thread again!

you say:

"The room to argue that point, but he is not saying you should suggest responses. "

Have you red the post that started this thread, where he asks for suggestion on how to combat this?

Facts and you aren't friends, are they!

[sangh0]

90. Typos

I should have typed it as

"There's room to argue that point, but he is not saying you should NOT suggest responses. You just shouldn't think that any and all suggestions will escape criticism

[Scott Lee]

113. And where was this revulsion to criticism, exactly?

[Lady President]

20. Gives us less ammo

Personally, while I would prefer a candidate with military experience, it's not a deal breaker for me.

I do think it weakens our AWOL argument. It's too risky for someone who can be pegged a draft dodger to call out Bush* on his missing years or the "Mission Accomplished" incident. I agree with the other poster that it's all about perception. People will see Vietnam era photos of each and think Bush* is a real soldier. The AWOL message will need to pounded into the public by the nominee and the media because it is hard for most people to believe the President could have really skipped out of the service. (I've shown friends the documents and they dismiss them as being photoshop internet garbage.)

[Tyler Durden]

24. The only positive so far...

...is that this may get people back on message and away from personal attacks on Bush, which don't work.

AWOL was a loser. We would have looked bad bringing it up. Maybe this is a blessing in disguise.

[killbotfactory]

32. Kerry and Clark went to Nam, the rest didn't.

Do you know who cares? Nobody.

[realFedUp]

36. I don't see the big deal

He went through the process and was rejected
by the Army. Case closed.

[lastliberalintexas]

37. The people with whom this kind of attack

will resonate are not voting Dem anyway. The vast majority of the elctorate couldn't give a rat's patooey about service in Vietnam anymore. Yet we quivering in fear of the small minority of voters who will vote for or against someone based solely on this service- and we forget that they aren't our voters to begin with!

If Dean is the nominee, we point out that he FAILED A PHYSICAL. He did not dodge the draft, even to the extent that Clinton did (not that he did either, but that's another thread).

And then we continue to work on getting Dem and independent voters to GO TO THE FREAKING POLLS. We get our people out and turnout just as high as we possibly can. And then we win. (and btw, that strategy works no matter who the nominee is)

I'm not concerned about the people who vote based solely on service in Vietnam any more than I am about the people who vote solely based on whether a candidate is anti-choice or against gay marriage/civil unions. Do you know why? Those people are not going to vote for us anyway! Why would we *ever* pander/cater to them?! The non-voters are far, far more important for us.

[sangh0]

45. Wrong

Independents are willing to vote for a Dem (that's why they are Independents and not Repukes) but many will NOT vote for someone they think of as a draft-dodger.

Consider using a thinner brush when talking about the electorate.

[lastliberalintexas]

51. Can you actually give an analysis

of why independents will use this as a litmus test? The people who typically use this issue as a litmus test are already repubs, and ergo vote for repub candidates.

So why will independents supposedly stay away from someone just b/c of service in Vietnam? And have any studies or polls shown this? Just wondering, because it is not what I've seen in politics. :shrug:

[AP]

55. I think it says something about class that will be hard for Dean to

shake.

[lastliberalintexas]

59. And the poor working man's son

named John Edwards served in the military when?

This should be a non-issue for us!!! I'm sorry that Dems are more concerned with beating down one another rather than beating Shrub. I'm not talking about actually winning a primary- but that's not what these posts are about. They are simply useful for tearing down someone else's candidate while doing nothing to actually bolster support for their guy.

[sangh0]

64. Irrelevant

Edwards service, or lack thereof, does nothing to help Dean with these voters. And while I agree that this shouldn't be an issue for Dems (or anyone) the fact remains that it *IS* an issue.

The South has a long tradition of military service. Many Southerners consider it a central part of their heritage. They come from families where the men served honorably. They believe this is an important issue, and they are NOT all Republicans.

[AP]

108. Clinton's lack of 'nam record didn't hurt him because there was no sense

that he got out of it unfairly.

For Edwards, the draft ended. If his number came up, he wouldn't have gotten out of it. That's for sure.

[mzmolly]

39. It played fine for Bush...

not concerned...

[Capn Sunshine]

40. By the time the election rolls around ,Iraq will be a poisonous swamp

Military service will only matter to a few, and it won't be a sure thing if you did serve.

It's a non issue.No Laws were broken, no chicanery, no nothing. He showed up , and was given a deferrment.

Unless you want to keep whipping it up.
Issue fluffing is a time honored trick

[Scott Lee]

70. Agreed - and this will help Dean more than apologies about his

draft status during Vietnam.

I'm beginning to think this thread is irrelevent.

[blm]

106. Get real. That 87 billion will buy alot of veneer.

By next year they'll have had an election in Iraq and the money spent will have bought at least an appearance of success and there will have been played at least a few hundred stories of oppressed, tortured Iraqia who praise Allah for George Bush.

That 87 billion was a down payment for Bush's election strategy.

Dems are fools if they think they'll be running against a failed presidency. The smart Dems will be prepared to run against a successful presidency because THAT is what most of the corporate media will be selling.

[Hep]

46. You must be right

I mean, if YOU find it an issue to be concerned about and make sure it's at the forefront of the primary, then how on earth can anyone else NOT?

[sangh0]

48. Dean denial

It's incredible that some think this won't be an issue, when the Repukes have made draft-dodging an issue before even when there was no evidence to support it.

[AP]

54. Furthermore, John McCain couldn't make Bush's chickenhawkishness

and issue, yet Dean is supposed to be able to do that? Right.

[Hep]

79. Won't be an issue at all

Why should vietnam still be any kind of issue. What is your argument for promoting it as such?

[sangh0]

91. Why should vietnam still be any kind of issue????

It is an issue. Whether or not you think it "should" be, it is.

[FredScuttle]

120. If Vietnam is still an issue...

please explain what happened to Max Cleland

[paulk]

52. This next election will be about national security

The first shot across the bow has allready been fired, with the Republican ads in Iowa.

Dean will be smeared as an anti-war liberal (which isn't true) who dodged the draft (which isn't true) and went skiing for a year. Two hundred million dollars can buy a lot of truth these days, and any attempts Dean makes to defend himself or attack Bush's AWOL will be drowned in the deluge.

Murdoch's paper has allready started the draft dodger meme, with the NY Times playing backup.

I have no suggestions on how to spin this. If Dean wins the nomination, he will lose. He will be hammered day in and day out as an anti-war draft dodger and it will stick.

The "Clinton did it" thing won't work. That was pre 9/11, and we didn't have two active wars going on. The Republican media managed to make Bush's TANG experience seem more credible than Gore's, and Gore was actually IN Vietnam, for Crissake!

The Democratic Party needs to nominate someone with strong military and foreign policy creds, and Dean has neither, IMHO.

[lastliberalintexas]

53. Yep

That's why all the polls are showing the economy and jobs as the voters' #1 concern. But you're right- this election will be ALL about nat'l security. Keep reading from that repub script. *sigh*

[paulk]

61. don't just post your usual snarky one liners

refute my arguments.

And as for Repub scripts - the Repubs OWN the media. It's their field we're going to be playing on next year. We ignore that at our
peril.

[lastliberalintexas]

74. My usual snarky one liners?

Like the post I made concerning how the people for whom this is an issue won't vote for us anyway? That post which hasn't been addressed except to say "Uh huh" or "Will too"?

Or that same post where I pointed out that we are better off going after the non-voters instead of the people who use service in Vietnam as a litmus test? And pointed out that voter turnout is going to be key for us (like it was in LA this year)? And that has been addressed how? And by whom?


I did refute what you said, although I did it without cites to the various polls. The polls have shown for some time now that the economy/jobs is the #1 concern of voters. Those same polls also show that the people who say that "nat'l seurity" is their #1 concern are *already* voting for Shrub. Again, why should we waste our time trying to convince repubs to vote for us when 50% of the electorate- the non-voters- is up for grabs?

ALL of our candidates are absolutely wonderful on economic issues, and we should continue to pound away at the repubs on those issues. But instead, we get suckered into playing by their script and focusing on losing issues for us. We kill them on the economy! Let's focus on that rather than playing into their hands on the pseudo-nat'l security baloney issues (since Shrub actually makes us less safe by his actions, that should be a winner for us too, bit apparently isn't). Get our voters to the polls and focus on real issues and we win!

[paulk]

96. OK. Strike "usual". I overreacted.

I don't find your argument that "the people for whom this is an issue won't vote for us anyway" compelling. There are people who would vote for a Clark or a Kerry who won't vote for Dean because of just this one issue. The only proof I can give is anecdotal, which you may or may not find valid - but I've had two moderate Republican ex-military men express just that to me.

As for bringing out the vote - I wouldn't base my election strategy on something that may or may not happen.

Polls aside - the national security issue was a winner for the Republicans in 2002, and they're going to use it again. Polls also show that 60% of the electorate think Bush is doing a good job on the "war on terror" - and not all of those people are Republicans.

I also would hesitate to base a campaign strategy on the hope that the economy continues to suck. Look at the spin the media is already drumming up about the newest "recovery".

National security is not a "psuedo" issue with most Americans - Sept. 11th HAPPENED - and you can bet the Bushistas and the media are going to make sure we don't forget it. It's not a matter of getting "suckered" into playing by their script - by election time they're going to make sure it's the only script in town.

I have come to believe the only way we can compete in the next election is to fight fire with fire - we need to be stronger on the nat'l security issue than they are - and national security/foreign policy is Dean's weakest suite.

[DjTj]

56. Since Bush dodged the draft too

...this shouldn't be a major issue in the general election. Dean could counter it very easily by saying that he received a deferment, so he stayed out of Vietnam just as Bush did through the National Guard. Just say that both of them were perfectly justified in their actions.

No need to attack Bush on it, but Bush won't have much to stand on if he attacks Dean on it either.

[gulliver]

57. Bush "served in uniform"

Service ace. Game. Set. Match.

Clark brings everything Dean brings to the table, including righteous, forceful anger spoken with Jimmy Stewart-like "American honesty." But Clark towers above Bush as a leader and (plainly said) as a man through the years.

Dean actually won the debate in Iowa except, IMO, for that one question on his skiing while taking a medical deferment for back problems. That question hit him hard, and he had no out. It's the end of Dean for this election cycle. Even if he wins the nomination, Dean can't hold the security issue -- even against a fraudulent, wussy, AWOL asshole like Bush.

The security issue is the major issue. Clark wins that issue, hands down. All of Dean's other issues can become Clark issues.

It saddens me a lot that a guy like Dean, a great guy with a ton of courage, has to come in second for us to beat Bush. It would be unjust for Dean to get nothing out of his courageous effort. I wish there were two presidencies. The 2004 term is not open to Dean under the current (and likely) circumstances.

[Scott Lee]

78. Don't you mean "went AWOL in uniform"?

.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

58. "I may want Clark..."

As a Clark backer you are one swell guy to try to
help Dean figure out what to do about this awful
thing. Especially after all our Prezes since I think
Hoover of been in war and served faithfuly. I think
Clinton lost the last election for this very reason
of how he dodged the draft and got deferment etc.
I was drafted myself and I tell you if I had of had
a bad back and xrays I tell you I would of hid it
away so far that those draft board guys would of
never found it. So I don't know what he will do but have
to drop out probalby and continue putting old sick people
out in the snow there in Vermont.

[FredScuttle]

85. Let's pander to morons...

who base their voting decisions on what Faux News commands them to follow...that's one option. Another is to appeal to the common sense of voters just like the millions who voted for Clinton against war heroes in '92 and '96

[SeattleRob]

86. my suggestion...

Quit using Republican/Rove spin points and think for yourself.

[Cronus Protagonist]

98. Youthful indiscretion

If Bush can use that to cover his cocaine use, surely Dean can use it for the draft.

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[NewYorkerfromMass]

100. don't even go there

that's a losing arguement for this.

[Kitsune]

99. Frankly, I don't see a problem with it.

But then, I come from a long line of draft-dodgers. Hell, draft-dodging is why half of my family emigrated to this country in the first place.

[Nashyra]

101. Obviously I am a Clark supporter however

Why can't Dean combat this by bringing up the draft and how do all these voters with kids and grandkids or students feel about being drafted? It could be presented in a way that an * vote equals a vote to reinstate the draft and then ask how they would feel about it especially if there are no deferements? Just a thought.

[CWebster]

102. "I may want Clark, but as a Socialist I must bow to reality"

How many contradictions can ya fit in one sentence? That has to be record! ;-)

[ozone_man]

104. Really.

Right, left, reality? Getting me dizzy.

Regarding the question about Dean and his medical deferment, I would say its a non-issue. I forget what Dean's stance was on Vietnam war, but I think he was against it, as was Clinton. Clinton stated his opposition as he was running for presidient. It did not hurt him in any way, probably helped him. All the baby boomers went through the same thing.

Bush has no leverage on this anyway, since his record is probably scandalous (AWOL).

I think military service, particularly if it is used to wrap oneself in the flag, will be seen negatively in 2004 campaign. Iraq has huge negatives already and its getting worse every day.

Tonight, I heard NPR mentioning Clark talking about Dean skiing, while he was getting shot in Vietnam. That is pretty disgusting and is what I call "wrapping oneself in the flag". Clark will not get my vote, even if he were the candidate. Hopefully there would be a 3rd party candidate to vote for (Kucinich?).

[DemBones DemBones]

107. To refute a few arguments Deanies are making:

1) Yes, Clinton was elected despite the "draft dodger" allegations. That was pre-9/11, though. And Dean's case is worse because he got a medical defer-ment due to a back problem and then took his bad back skiing. Brokaw said
something like "You skiied the moguls. I've skied the moguls and I know how hard it is on your back. How could you do it?"

Howard's reply sounded weak and his statement "I failed the physical" was especially lame. I suspect he'd have been drafted if he hadn't had a doctor's note -- he only "failed" because of the note. He admitted to a NYTimes reporter recently that he probably could have served, that he didn't really want to be in the military. Sure, lots of guys did all they could to keep from going. But Howard is running for president, post 9-11.

2) A lot of people are sick of Bush, even if they voted for him in 2000. But they want a president who'll take care of us and they feel more secure with somebody who's had military experience in charge. It's inaccurate to assume that anyone who feels this way would never vote for a Dem. Some wouldn't but many others would. If you want your country back, you want a Dem who wins in a landslide, to take away any chance of SCOTUS deciding another election. You sure as hell don't want to lose some of the people who voted for Gore in 2000. We need all of them plus many more.

3) Bush's 4 1/2 years service in TANG probably didn't teach him much but he gets credit from most people for handling things well after 9/11 so he has a rep of being strong on defense. (And there are those who believe he flew missions in Nam, too.)

4) AWOL Bush won't be an issue unless the media make it an issue. (Good luck on that!) There is also very little evidence left and its credibility can be denied by those who want to refute it.


I don't know how Dean can spin this but he definitely has to deal with it better in the future than he has in the past, when he has been inconsistent. And Deanies need to stop making the excuses that won't work (Clinton didn't serve, Bush was AWOL, "those" people won't vote Dem, anyway.)

[Scott Lee]

114. To refute your refutations....

1) 9-11 does not give you an excuse to take a vacation from your reason. As such, it doesn't magically give Bush-hole the edge in an AWOL/non AWOL fight any more than it gives me the right to smash my neighbor's car because I grieve about the WTC. This "blame it on 9/11" bullshit is wearing awfully thin and quite frankly, doesn't fly anymore.

Getting a medical deferrment from a draft board is not a strike against you. In fact, it's very lucky for you. And this tired old "well you skiied moguls so why didn't you serve" drivel is completely corroded. Look, I've skiied moguls all my life and I'M not entirely sure my back could have survived hauling around that much equipment in shitty jungle conditions. Conversely, I've seen people with recurring back problems handle a ski slope just fine.

2)The electorate wants a president who will "take care of us"? Are you joking? This electorate is more and more telling government to get OUT of their lives, not crawl farther up their noses. I hope you're not insinuating that Americans want nanny treatment. Security, yes, but not wiping their bums. And speaking of security - as it gets clearer by the day that Iraq was NEVER a threat to this nation, how does that square with a shivering electorate, begging a daddy to make them feel safe?

3) It is true that Bush's "military abilitites" have become wildly exaggerated, but you can thank Rove and the press machine for that stuff. Image does not equal reality, and it makes more sense to me to figure out how to expose Bush-hole's deficiencies in this area than to just throw your hands up in the air and admit defeat.

4) For anyone that cares to read, there is a TON of evidence out there that Bush went AWOL. Don't think that just because the mediawhores choose to poopoo it, it doesn't exist. As in point 3, don't be lazy. EXPOSE all the evidence and repeat it repeat it repeat it so the Bush-holers can't bulldoze it over with apathy.


The most damaging thing to any democratic contender is not Bush's realities, but the carefully crafted appearance of those realities left undisrupted. DISRUPT THEM. Question them - debate them - destroy them. Otherwise you let the teflon coating get thicker.

[dkf]

122. I don't get it. Didn't Kucinich get a deferment too?

[vdeputy]

109. One reason it will be held against him

in the point of the view of the American Legion types is that he was wealthy. If he'd been a dirt poor kid trying to get out of going to go to Vietnam (which few of them managed to do), the assessment wouldn't be so harsh but one of the resentments from Vietnam came from the fact that it was the affluent who went to college or to their doctors or got a slot in the air national guard and the peons who ended up going - and that's why a lot of people will hold it against Dean.

[blm]

110. Yep...the rich had the right doctors.

They always do.

[FredScuttle]

123. Yes, quite a shame isn't it

that he wasn't born to heroin addicts in an abandoned building in the Bronx. Or that he wasn't shuttled in and out of foster homes throughout his formative years.

Damn you for taking advantage of your privileged birth, Dean!

[AmericanDem]

111. because Dean humped away from the draft

is a very big problem for me.

[fabius]

119. BRING IT ON.

Let's have full disclosure of Vietnam era records.

That's what Dean should say. You show me yours, etc.

Same with the governor records. Seems perfect to me.


How is it that flying an obsolete fighter plane in a dangerous manner and then going AWOL protected us any more than going skiing. ?

[abbyhoffman]

121. He lost his brother

to the war one death in the family is one too many I have no problem with him dodging the draft

[incapsulated]

124. His brother wasn't in the war

He was over there as a tourist.

[burning bush]

125. I Came Out Of Lurk Mode for This...

Dean should address this now, while Clark is giving him a rash..

It is not a setback, it is an incredible opportunity. How about this:

Dean:
"I'm glad to have the chance to talk about my commitment to the US military. When called by the draft board, I must have thought like a Doctor, because I told them all about my medical history, including my small problems with my back. I took an armed forces physical. I did not pass that physical, and was not asked to serve my country at that time. Today, looking back on the Vietnam experience that this country endured, I have mixed emotions about the board's decision. On one hand, I wonder if I should have hidden my medical history from the military authorities so that I could have served in active duty, like my good friends John Kerry and Wesley Clark, both heroes of the Vietnam conflict."

"On the other hand, like many young men of my age at that time, I was pretty damn nervous about the idea of rushing off to fight a war that was sold to Americans under false pretenses, a war without an exit strategy, a war of rash judgements."

"We still pay the price for those rash judgements. As a doctor, I've seen the aftermath of Vietnam, as close as any man or woman who did not fight. I've seen soldiers with physical and mental scars, left behind by their government, left behind by a society that often does not seem to understand these men that proudly served their country."

"I hope that we will never see another generation of veterans who have been left behind, and if I am elected President, I will promiss these things:

1)That I will never lie to you about the reasons our service men and women may be called into battle.

2)That the United States will never send our children off to fight without a strategy that includes bringing them back home to their families.

3)That our country's veterans will always be shown the respect that they deserve, that they will always be given the medical treatment that they require, and that when they do at last come home, they will not come as shadowed reminders of the ugliness of wars fought, but as keepers of the peace and freedom that all American's enjoy."

"Not just as a candidate, but as a doctor, and as a proud citizen of this great country, I am committed to the troops of this country, to their future, to thier health, and to their well being-never question that."


If Dean said this, say, during a commercial, with the Vietnam memorial as a backdrop, the stuation would be turned to an asset immediately. It plays with his Iraq message, and against Bush's treatment of the military. It even hits Bush on his "No Child Left Behind" failure

Again, I came out of lurk mode for this, so this appears as my first post. As such, what do you folks think?

[newyawker99]

126. I am locking this thread.

This is flamebait.


NYer99
DU Moderator