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creativelcro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 03:19 PM
Original message
The problem is not whether Clark is a nut
Edited on Wed Nov-26-03 03:52 PM by creativelcro
BUT whether he can beat GWB! And whether he can restore American democracy by making people feel like they can take America back!!...
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creativelcro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 03:28 PM
Response to Original message
1. Even if he's not a nut, how can he beat GW ?
Hugh Shelton, the former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff who engineered Clark’s firing, bluntly referred to Clark as a “nut.”

http://www.msnbc.com/news/969047.asp
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NoKingGeorge Donating Member (442 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Is that the same Shelton who will not back up his statements?
The mudslinger Shelton? One of the mole pop-ups who stay hidden when they are challenged. The one who will not come out of the shadows but prefers to bark from the corner. That Shelton?
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ajacobson Donating Member (828 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. Shelton?
The Shelton who is longtime advisor to the Edwards campaign? Yawn.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2003/11/16/183232/44
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. Here is a good article asking who is lacking integrity and character....
It is entitled:Frag Officer: Hugh Shelton smears Wes Clark

http://slate.msn.com/id/2089014

Why would you take the word of a man (Hugh Shelton) so lacking in integrity and character that he would throw out smears and then slink back into the shadows?
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. <sigh> Here it is again. Please bookmark this the next time you ...
..spout rightwing BS

We've all heard the story by now. A few weeks back, Gen. Hugh Shelton, the former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, was at a forum in California where he was asked, "What do you think of Gen. Wesley Clark, and would you support him as a presidential candidate?"

"I've known Wes for a long time. I will tell you the reason he came out of Europe early had to do with integrity and character issues, things that are very near and dear to my heart. I'm not going to say whether I'm a Republican or a Democrat. I'll just say Wes won't get my vote." Shelton replied.

There are two problems with that statment. The first is unless Shelton reveals what those "integrity and character issues" are, the charges are meaningless and they show a lack of integrity unto themselves. Afterall, how can Wesley Clark possibly rebutt them if he doesn't know what the issues are? This is like someone telling you on your wedding day, "I wouldn't marry him/her if I were you... I'm not going to say why... just trust me..." Huh? How does one respond to that?

The second problem is the assertion that Clark came out of Europe early based on the mysterious and vague charges of "integrity and character" issues. In all actuality, Clark was relieved of duty based on personal vendettas carried by General Hugh Shelton and Admiral Leighton (Snuffy) Smith. It was Shelton who called Clark to inform him that his nato assignment would end early. (According to Waging Modern War, Shelton would not even show Clark the courtesy of extending the phone call a few minutes to work out a face-saving exit.) President Clinton privately told Clark, "I had nothing to do with it." http://www.farcaster.com/mhonarchive/hauserreport/msg00467.html

So what drove General Shelton to the decision to recall a very successful General from the field after executing a very successful war?

He directly crossed Admiral Leighton Smith, the four-star commander of Mediterranean nato forces. Although nato demanded a full Serb withdrawal from the besieged city of Sarajevo, Smith urged that a brief bombing pause in early September be extended indefinitely, since, as he explained to Ambassador Richard Holbrooke, he thought the United States had no business intervening. But Clark, then still a three-star, insisted in a heated telephone call that the bombing should continue as planned. As Holbrooke writes in To End A War, "I could tell from the noises emanating from Clark's cell phone that he was being scolded by a very angry, very senior American naval commander." Smith--who quickly alerted his superiors to Clark's insolence--had the inclinations of nato policymakers on his side; after all, heads of state had neglected Bosnia as long as was politically tolerable. But Clark was right, and he won: The bombing resumed and caused the Bosnian Serbs to withdraw from Sarajevo within two weeks of Clark's clash with Smith. That November, the warring parties met at Dayton to negotiate a peace accord. Clark was soon afterward awarded his fourth star--despite ferocious resistance from the Army, which would have preferred his retirement. http://www.farcaster.com/mhonarchive/hauserreport/msg00467.html

During the above-mention events, President Clinton seethed, privately calling Smith insubordinate, and eventually forcing the admiral to resume action. http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/books/2001/0109.thompson.html

So, we see, Clark defied Admiral Smith, won Clinton's backing, and resumed the campaign. The intervention ended less than two weeks later.

So here's the setup. Clark defied Admiral Smith. Smith alerted his superiors to Clark's "insolence" (but apparantly not Bill Clinton, who agreed with Clark and disagreed with Smith.) Those superiors were most likely Richard Cohen and General Shelton.

Shelton, Smith, and Cohen were angry. Not only had they been defied, but they were proven wrong and were not backed by their Commander in Chief.

They fought Clark being awared his Fourth star - wanting him retired instead. They had been out manuervered by Wesley Clark and Clark won the Kosovo intervention. Embarassing to be sure.

I don't know how thick Admiral Leighton W. Smith and General Shelton were during the Kosovo conflict, before it, or after it, but they have both been guest speakers at the Patterson School of Diplomacy and International Commerce.

http://www.uky.edu/RGS/Patterson/faculty.htm

I would suspect their association goes back a bit further.

As for Clark and his "character issues," he "risked his career to confront the uniformed reluctance to use force in defense of human rights."

Clark was disliked (even hated?) by the upper Pentagon brass because...

1. Such liberal/progressive views like humanitarian missions and nation building for the military made the Pentagon uneasy...

Despite his credentials as a warrior - 34 years in the Army, including a Silver Star, two Bronze Stars and a Purple Heart earned in Vietnam - {Clark} argues that the U.S. military must learn how to perform such nontraditional functions as peacekeeping and even nation-building, because that's what it will be doing in the 21st century, like it or not. And, since it's no small task to turn gung-ho soldiers into order-keeping policers, it's all the more urgent that the entire military start rethinking its doctrine immediately.

Paradigm-shifting views such as these did not make Clark popular with his superiors at the Pentagon, including former Secretary of Defense William Cohen.


http://www.newamerica.net/index.cfm?pg=article&pubID=528

2. Wesley Clark welcomes homosexuals in the military

I'm not sure that I'd be in favor of policy. I supported that policy. That was a policy that was given. I don't think it works. It works better in some circumstances than it does in others. But essentially we've got a lot of gay people in the armed forces, always have had, always will have. And I think that, you know, we should welcome people that want to serve. - MSNBC

Former NATO supreme commander Wesley Clark says it is time for the ban on gays in the military to be lifted. - gayPASG


3. Clark was/is too intelligent for the military "culture."

...General Barry McCaffrey told the Washington Post: "This is no insult to army culture ... but he was way too bright, way too articulate, way too good looking and perceived to be way too wired to fit in with our culture."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1044318,00.html

I would say these sound like integrity and character issues I admire.

More...

After prosecuting NATO's first war by uniting its 19 countries and defeating the Yugoslav Army with no alliance casualties, the four-star general had ruffled enough feathers at the Pentagon that his career abruptly ended.

"Wes could not possibly be a better leader," Taylor said. "I really respect Wes in a very special way for his brilliance. But he's also a man of real character and high personal values."

Any problem Clark had with higher-ups in the Pentagon was due to "professional jealousy" by officials who had trouble with a highly intelligent man who made his case with solid evidence and debated vigorously, Taylor said.

"The guy, when he starts doing something, is exhaustively focused on achieving the mission," said retired Gen. Barry McCaffrey, who has known Clark since the two taught at West Point decades ago. He preceded Clark as commander of U.S. Southern Command.

The tension with Washington stemmed partly from the failure of bureaucrats to give Clark resources he needed as the commander on the scene, Grange said.

During and after the conflict there was friction between Clark and his superiors, Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Gen. Hugh Shelton and Defense Secretary William Cohen, apparently over Clark's high-profile persona and his willingness to challenge them.

At the root of this conflict, Taylor said, was jealousy of a "superstar" by Clark's superiors at the Pentagon. "Shelton and Cohen didn't like Wes being direct with them, arguing his case," Taylor said. "They wanted someone they could tell what to do."

more...

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/News/Nation/AB925B9C76D6B82686256DBC00375519?OpenDocument&Headline=Clark\'s+rise+in+military+impressed+and+rankled+observers

and more...

U.S. News Online
Outlook 8/9/99
the real reason for Clark's ouster may be that the famously political general was impolitic. Pentagon insiders say Clark's frequent and public complaint that politicians had tied his hands during the Kosovo war irked his boss, Defense Secretary William Cohen. Cohen reportedly also was none too pleased that Clark's aides called him "Senator Cohen," a mocking reference to his past as an elected official. The bottom line, says one Pentagon official: "You don't piss off your boss and get away with it-

1999 UNIVERSAL PRESS SYNDICATE
No wonder these generals and admirals in what once was called the War Department got rid of the one genuine military thinker and hero we have, Gen. Wesley K. Clark. What did he think he was doing, insisting upon winning?

The simple truth right now is that nobody says that Clark was wrong. In fact, the respected German Gen. Klaus Naumann, just-retired head of the NATO military committee, told a group of us here recently, in his review of the still-unresolved conflict, that "the reluctance to use overwhelming force allowed Slobodan Milosevic to calculate his risks. ... I would press harder for visible preparations and visible planning."

But it was the "go-slow" guys, the "they'll give in with a just little more punishment" chaps (in fact, the very same mentality that gave us Vietnam!), the ones who would rewrite all of the dictums of von Clausewitz and Sun Tzu about the need to strike hard, fast and unrelentingly, who were unquestionably and provably wrong -- and whose political caution cost tens of thousands of lives and came close to losing the war for NATO.

So who goes? Wesley Clark!


Levin Statement on Departure of General Wesley Clark
July 28, 1999
WASHINGTON Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich., issued the following statement today following the announcement that General Wesley Clark would step down as NATO supreme commander in April, 2000:

"I have known and worked with General Wes Clark for many years. He is an outstanding military officer. We all owe him a debt of gratitude for his tremendous leadership of NATO's military forces during the recent Kosovo conflict. I look forward to working closely with General Clark through the end of his term as SACEUR."


By: EDWARD N. LUTTWAK
Published in the LA Times August 6, 1999
Edward N. Luttwak is a senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington

Defeated generals are sent home in disgrace, but it is most unusual to dismiss victorious ones. Whatever the future may hold for Kosovo--and it looks rather grim at present--there is no doubt that NATO's war against Serbia ended in victory. Nor is it in doubt that its military commander, Gen. Wesley K. Clark, was very much the victorious general of that war.

NewsWeek
By John Barry and Christopher Dickey,
Aug. 9, 1999

Gen. Wesley Clark, supreme Allied Commander in Europe, waged and won NATO's campaign for Kosovo without losing a single soldier in action. For the U.S. military, the victory was uniquely—historically—bloodless. Last week Clark learned it was also thankless.

In a midnight call from Washington, Clark was told he'd be relieved of his command at NATO next April, a few months earlier than he'd anticipated. The chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Hugh Shelton, presented the decision as a simple matter of giving the post to another deserving officer. Clark, who got the call in the middle of a quick trip to the Baltic republics, was caught off balance. He'd seen Shelton in the United States just the week before. Not a word had been breathed of his replacement. According to one source privy to the conversation, Clark told Shelton the move would be read as a vote of no-confidence in his leadership.

Shelton, brisk and businesslike, said there was no way around it. His replacement—Air Force Gen. Joseph Ralston, vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff—would be forced by law to retire if he weren't given a new slot by April. Clark wasn't buying it. In two conversations that night and again the next day, sources say, he argued that his replacement would be a blow to U.S. efforts to reshape NATO. Shelton wasn't moved. Clark, the 54-year-old warrior, was going to have to step aside for Ralston, the 55-year-old Washington insider.

there's more articles from Wash Post/Dana Priestly, Seattle times, etc...
http://wesleyclark.h1.ru/departure.htm
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dajabr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
2. "The thing is," he said, "being electable means having certain qualities"
"...And unfortunately, many of those qualities are superficial qualities." He paused. "General Clark has depth, but he also has those surface qualities. He appeals to people who don't have time to think about the depth part."

Jesus, I thought. They're just coming right out and saying it.


More: http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20031215&c=1&s=taibbi

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Matt Taibbi nails Clark in a VERY funny piece.

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democratreformed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 03:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Oh puhleaaase
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creativelcro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. I see the point
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ajacobson Donating Member (828 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 03:47 PM
Original message
Taibbi hates everyone.
We'll see if you're laughing when he rips your candidate.
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AmericanDem Donating Member (521 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
20. what the hell was that?
Was that supposed to be an article? Honestly, it came across as something only children could go along with. Pretending to be a porn star, after 3 pages It was a no read. Garbage, no other word for it!

Whats the story on the author of that piece? I know nothing of him. is he a person asubculture looks up too or something? Fill me in.
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Phelan Donating Member (188 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
50. wow...I am stunned
about the idiocy of the writer of that piece.

attacking Clark for being a white house fellow under a republican (which btw- a few influential democrats were fellows at the same time) is...just dumb.

Looks a lot like the stuff written in the New Yorker about Clark... Some 'journalists' like sensationalism and do very little fact checking I've noticed, and then try to disguise their biases with poor attempts at wit..
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rumguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #2
54. that article you cite is nothing but hipster
look at me make fun of everyone and everything garbage! Look at me - I'm so ironic!
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SeattleRob Donating Member (893 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
6. so sad
It's always sad to see Karl Rove spin points being brandished about on the DU.

PS. I am not a Clark supporter.
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creativelcro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Rove again...
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dajabr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Why would Rove say any candidate is electable?
Wouldn't make sense... :shrug:
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #6
14. Karl Rove spin points?
From The Nation?

Jesus ...
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SeattleRob Donating Member (893 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #14
43. Yes from The Nation....
Different people, whether or not they have good intentions, repeatthe same Rovian/Repub spin points. So and so is "not electable," we're in a "jobless" recovery, so and so has a bad temper.

We are being blasted with non stop propaganda. Good people, people of the DU, people who work for The Nation, hear it over and and over and end up using it in their discourse.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
9. Thanks for the link.
My favorite part so far?

"Each candidate had a half-hour to speak and answer labor-related panel questions. Edwards went first and did so-so. Dean went later and did better. Kucinich was the star, leaving to uproarious applause; he sounded like the second coming of Sam Gompers. Last in line came the unknown, Wesley Clark. And what a very strange performance it was."

This was in October... how tragic that the masintream media doesn't relate how completely differently crowds react to Kucinch vs. the rest of them.
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creativelcro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. I love Kucinich!
Edited on Wed Nov-26-03 03:45 PM by creativelcro
Not sure why he's not being taken seriously.... He has no chance this time, pretty clear at this point...
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Hint:
Mass, mainstream TV media is owned by SIX corporations. Print publications slightly more than that.

Kucinich openly states he'll break up monopolies.

Do the rest? No. They're less threatening, so they get preferential treatment.

Big media is a business. They're just looking out for their interests.

Same reason as always, just a different subject.

I swear I didn't see this agonizing over the reason they pushed the Iraq war so hard... we seemed to 'get' that pretty quickly.

:shrug:
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. I don't care much for Kucinich... but I like Kucinich supporters...
... on average, they don't sling as much mud. Which is probably why Kucinich doesn't get bashed here as much as the other candidates (except Braun, of course.)
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dajabr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. You're welcome - here's my favorite part...
Now Clark is presenting himself as a White Knight to the modern version of that same demographic, and he is being welcomed with open arms. He appeals to roughly the same class of people as Howard Dean, with a subtle difference. The Dean crowd self-consciously sees itself as a political force. When Dean tells supporters, "You have the power!" they holler like banshees, creating a Mike-Dukakis-teach-in-meets-Who-Let-the-Dogs-Out? kind of effect. But the chief crowd ritual in the Clark campaign is that of a group of hushed, groveling supplicants staring dewy-eyed at their savior Caesar. The vibe is all about ceding power, not empowerment.

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20031215&c=1&s=taibbi

:spank: That's gotta hurt!
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creativelcro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. I agree with that assessment!!!
I've been to both Dean and Clark's meetings... You can see this in the arrogant obtusity with which some Clark supporters keep bashing Dean on this board....
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dajabr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. Keep reading the article - it get's better!
Taibbi went undercover as a "volunteer"

At a Nashua bakery called Patisserie Bleu later that day, owner Jacqui Pressinger went through the motions of Clark's appearance, walking from the door to the counter. "He came in, stood right here, and ordered an 'Everything' bar," she said. "But then--he was whispering--he leaned over and told me and the girls that actually, his favorite dessert was a napoleon."

"You're kidding," I said.

"Yup," she said. "Then he started talking about West Point. He said something about eating a lot of napoleons at West Point."

"That's incredible," I said.

"Mmm-hm," she said. "I love pastry stories!"


http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20031215&c=2&s=taibbi

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA... Classic! LMAO & ROFL!

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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. IIRC, he wrote "Who's Afraid of Dennis Kucinch" as well
also for The Nation.

I like this guy. :)
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #15
30. This is the guy who called Dean "The new liberal Elvis."
..and continued, "Along comes Howard Dean, a well-spoken, obviously intelligent man who opposes the war in Iraq before it is politically expedient to do so.

He compares Dean to a mirage:

Six months ago, when I first started investigating the Democratic candidates for 2004, Dean seemed to me the only one whom I would trust not to steal my silverware. Now I'm not so sure--but that might not be Dean's fault. As I found out on the Sleepless Summer Tour, no candidate with "momentum" looks good up close; and the realities of modern campaigning make it hard to spot a mirage, even at close range.

All in all, not a real favorable article

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20031006&c=1&s=taibbi

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rumguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #15
56. he's pretty hard on you Dean folks as well...
"The Dean crowd self-consciously sees itself as a political force. When Dean tells supporters, "You have the power!" they holler like banshees, creating a Mike-Dukakis-teach-in-meets-Who-Let-the-Dogs-Out? kind of effect."

The author is nothing but a joker.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
21. The Problem Isn't Whether Such Threads Are The Product Of Flaming Assholes
But whether they are merely FLAMEBAIT and not intended or designed to garner any real discussion.
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creativelcro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. YEAH I hate flamers!!! What can we do about it??
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Why Didn't You Just Leave Your Original Post AS IT WAS? Cowardice?
Just Asking...
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creativelcro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. why do you have to insult people for no reason ?
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. Oh, I Think There Were Plenty of Good Reasons
Edited on Wed Nov-26-03 04:09 PM by DoveTurnedHawk
:eyes:

DTH
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Petrodollar Warfare Donating Member (628 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 03:57 PM
Response to Original message
23. The only problem with Clark is whether or not his supporters will...
..open their checkbooks over Thanksgiving and start writing $500 to $1000 checks to the Clark campaign, to the sum total of $12-$15 million for this Qtr. I like both Clark and Dean, but unless over the next 5 weeks Clark pulls in incredible amount of money, I don't see how he can compete with Dean in the primaries. I could be wrong, but that is my observation at this point. I want a Dean/Clark or Clark/Dean combo, but due to the money situtaion it appears that the former is more likely than the later...only time will tell.
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creativelcro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. This is a realistic assessment
I don't understand why some people don't get it...
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
25. Oh Look, You Added A Few More Sentences To Your Original Post
What's the matter, afraid your flamebait would be locked?
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creativelcro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. you're hallucinating man
Edited on Wed Nov-26-03 03:59 PM by creativelcro
gotta take some rest ! The clark campaign is wearing you down...
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bicentennial_baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. You're not a Clark supporter
so you can lose the avatar. And you did change your post. Stop fronting, it's unseemly.
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creativelcro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. since when using an Avatar makes you a supporter ?
Many people have penguin avatars. Does it mean they support penguins ?
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. No, it means they support the linux operating system...
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creativelcro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. I have Clark's Avatar because I think he is good looking
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bicentennial_baby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 04:09 PM
Original message
What the hell is your problem?
Seriously, I don't care that you don't like Clark. Start as many pointless anti-Clark threads as you want. For someone who does'nt support Clark, I don't know why you would want that avatar. Also, by having the avatar on your posts, you are being disingenuous, because people will assume, with good reason, that you do indeed support him.
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creativelcro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
40. Fine, here you go. I was a Clark supporter before
I realized he is not fit to be President. I still think he is good looking. So, I'm keeping the Avatar. Any problems with that?
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SEAburb Donating Member (985 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #25
52. You are right, it has been changed.
But this thread should still be locked.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
33. Taibbi on Dean...
Called Dean the liberal Elvis...and continued, "Along comes Howard Dean, a well-spoken, obviously intelligent man who opposes the war in Iraq before it is politically expedient to do so.

He compares Dean to a mirage:

Six months ago, when I first started investigating the Democratic candidates for 2004, Dean seemed to me the only one whom I would trust not to steal my silverware. Now I'm not so sure--but that might not be Dean's fault. As I found out on the Sleepless Summer Tour, no candidate with "momentum" looks good up close; and the realities of modern campaigning make it hard to spot a mirage, even at close range.

All in all, not a real favorable article.

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20031006&c=1&s=taibbi

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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
37. The piece is a smear.....
and they will hear from me on this one. This should have been called "Why I hate Clark and want to lose the election"......

or "Why Clark is imperfect and why I am"

or "Why I spied on the Clark campaign and decided to smear the guy"..

or "Why I was paid so that we could get 500,000 Dean supporters and 500,000 Clark supporters to on-line hit my article in the nation and increase advertiser promotions".....

or "Why I am a closet op-ed writer"....
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creativelcro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. always a smear when it's against what you believe
general rule
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. No, It's a Smear When It's Written From a Biased POV
And when the tripe written is inaccurate, misleading bullshit.

DTH
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dajabr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. "inaccurate, misleading bullshit"
Well, I read the AP if I want to avoid being hit over the head with a writer's opinions (though tougher to avoid the overall bias of the Right leaning Media).

Isn't Taibbi entitled to publish his opinion?

What exactly was innacurate? Do you have first-hand knowledge of his time as a volunteeer?

Oh, and this part is hysterical!

"What does that mean, exactly, 'New American Patriotism'?" I said. "Is that as opposed to the old foreign patriotism?"

"No," Yoken said. "The New American Patriotism sees patriotism as something where dissent and civil liberties are encouraged."

"I thought that was the old patriotism," I said.

The committee fell silent for a moment. "Well, whatever," Yoken said.


http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20031215&c=4&s=taibbi

"Whatever..." I see that a lot when concerns are brought up about Clark.
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DoveTurnedHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. WOW, THAT Straw Man Is Gi-Normous!
Do you enjoy accusing people of being wife beaters, too?

Please point out WHO exactly said Taibbi shouldn't be allowed to publish his opinion. How absurd.

It's MY right to say Taibbi's opinion is utter crap, however. And to say that people who buy into biased Clark smears are buying into counter-productive propaganda spread either by the extreme left or the moderate to extreme right.

DTH
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rumguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #42
57. That comment - "I thought that was the old patriotism"
was dismissed offhand because it is nothing but an inane juvenile way of making oneself appear smart...

any campaign has to use words like new etc., it gets more attention than old - remember Clinton's New Covenant? I think it was the New Covenant...whatever, any campaign should not use the word "old" in a slogan...
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AmericanDem Donating Member (521 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
41. Great Logo of Clark!!!
Glad you are finally starting to read up on the issues! :toast:
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creativelcro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. LOOK, THESE THREADS SUCK
but as long as other members start smearing threads about ANY candidates, that's what they get. It does not matter who they support... It would be nice if EVERYBODY stopped this BS... Thank you
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
45. Please drop the sleeze
I have a hard time believing you aren't familiar with the ugly Rowe tactic of insinuating that an opponent is "sick" "unstable" has a "hair trigger" or is "nuts" as it was used in one of the ugliest political campaigns ever waged, in the 2000 Republican Primaries against John McCain.

The way it is practiced is simple. Place the candidates name in the same sentence with the word "nuts" as often as possible. Repeat endlessly. Phrases like "I'm not saying that Clark is "nuts" but..." or even "I know that Clark isn't "nuts" but..." is EXACTLY how that form of character assassination is done. Exactly the way you are doing it in this thread. Next I would not be surprised if you replied to my concern with "I'm not the one saying that Clark is nuts, the Republicans will say that Clark is nuts, and how will that sound to the public when they hear someone saying that Clark is nuts..."

There are many non imflamatory ways you could have started a thread dealing with the subject of anticipated Republican attack lines. There are many non inflamatory ways you could have started a thread dealing with "unanswered questions" about Clark. In my opinion you chose neither. Intentionally or unintentionally, you play right along with the smeer tactics.

Clark can handle himself. He has great responces to charges made against him, he throws them back at the people who make them, increasingly effectively I might add. And others on this thread and elsewhere have provided you and others with all the doucumentation that strips bare the nature of, and motivations for, the smeers made against Clark. Now if you want to make a direct assertion that Clark is "nuts", or that Dean is "consumed by anger", or fall all over yourself embracing any of the other favorite Republican underhanded attacks on any of our candidates, go ahead and try.

I think it is a hoot that anyone honestly thinks someone like Clark won't tear apart anyone stupid enough to assert that the man put in charge of Strategic Planning for the Pentagon was a nut case. I'm not saying it wont't be tried, it already is being tried. I'm saying Clark will tear them a new one, and he is already warming up to that task. Now is when the Republicans hope this smeer will do it's damage, now when Clark is battling in a pack of other Democrats to break out, now before enough people get to watch Clark for themselves and draw their own conclusions about him. The smeer will work now or it will wither and die, because once Clark has the nomination he will have plenty of time and money to speak for himself before the American Public, and contrast his views directly with Bush's. So yes I am disappointed to see smeer language openly used here at DU. I don't want to think that you are part of that.
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creativelcro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. sounds good to me BUT
then mods have to dump all smear threads... Just today there were a bunch of "draft dodging" threads whose purpose was simply to have Dean and draft dodging in the same sentence.
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Tom Rinaldo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. I could quibble
though mostly I agree. Your follow up line I thought was way over the top: "Even if Clark was not a nut..." That's kind of like saying "Well let's just suppose for a second, just for the sake of argument, that Clark may not be a nut..." which is a big step beyond using a DU thread to call attention to the implications of a charge that is currently in play agaisnt a candidate in the media (like the matter of Dean's medical defferment, - see, I'm playing fair). A thread header stating "How can Clark respond to Shelton's Charges?" might be useful. "How can Dean respond to the question of his medical defferment?" might also be useful. In that context, questioning if and how an attack line might hurt the candidates chances for winning is fair game I believe. Not something like "Why should America trust a coward like Dean, or a nut like Clark?"
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
49. I, for one, am thankful that our armed forces are full of nuts like Clark.
Max Cleland's a nut and John Kerry as well. After all, who would do some crazy shit like fight for the USA?
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Phelan Donating Member (188 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
51. So this an Op-Ed piece
The bias is worthy of Ann Coulter I might add. Except he didn't call for public executions.
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caledesi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
53. Who says Clark is a nut? The Freepers? Puhleeze.
No "nut" could achieve what General Clark has.

He went to West Point at the age of 17 and graduated at the top of his class in 1966. Is that a nut?

He also earned a Master's Degree in Philosophy, Politics, and Economics from Oxford University, where he was a Rhodes Scholar.
Is that a nut?

General Clark is a recipient of numerous U.S. and foreign military awards, including the Silver Star, Bronze Star, and Purple Heart.
Is that a nut?

President Clinton awarded General Clark with the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the nation's highest civilian honor. Is that a nut?

Wes Clark and his wife Gert have been married for 36 years Is that a nut? (unlike most Repugs....a lot of them are on their 2nd and 3rd "trophy wife.")

I am a Dean supporter, but I don't appreciate this bogus characterization of General Clark being a "nut."

We have a really NUT in the WH now who has totally destroyed this country.



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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
55. What an incredible piece of flame-bait tripe!
Jeez, couldn't yopu find something even sleazier? :eyes:
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
58. Interesting...
The legacy of Vietnam will be put to rest. Maybe Roman history isn't the only kind of history on the mind of General Clark. Certainly, in his statements about Iraq, he echoes the sentiments of the old Vietnam War boosters. " has been a huge strategic mistake for this country," he says. "But now that we're in, we have no choice but to succeed." Between all the anti-Bush bluster, and the talk of the Iraq war being a "national tragedy," the position of the antiwar candidate really boils down to that: Let's finish the job like we didn't last time. Underneath it all, he seems to be a man yearning to scratch a very old itch.

It had always troubled me that people opposed to the war could have seen something in Wesley Clark. Because it seemed to me that no person who found the Iraq war morally repugnant could have gone on television and talked sunnily about how this or that weapon was ravaging Iraqi defenses. I remember watching Clark on CNN, and at one point he was actually playing with a model of an A-10 tank-killer airplane, whooshing it back and forth over a map of Iraq, like a child playing with a new toy on Christmas morning. A person who was genuinely opposed to the war as wrongful killing would be sick even thinking about such a thing.

Clark's new book, Winning Modern Wars, is 200 pages long, all about the Iraq war. Yet there is only one instance in the entire book in which he gives a physical description of the death of a human being, that being a mention of some Marines in Nasiriyah who were found with bullet holes in their heads. Everywhere else, human beings are described as "targets" or "objectives" or even "high-value targets," and their deaths are rendered with sports/ football metaphors ("going 'downtown' with air power," "Red Zone" attacks, "the Big Win," etc.) and bloodless euphemisms for words like "kill" or "assassination" ("destroy," "decapitating strike"). Moreover, he never mentions civilian casualties without qualifying his statements--the "alleged mistakes of the bombing campaign," the "hapless women and children reported to be victims of the bombing."

If this kind of talk sounds familiar, that's because it is. Clark doesn't hide it. "I'm a product of that military-industrial complex General Eisenhower warned you about," he said with a smile a few weeks ago, during a speech at the UNH campus in Manchester. The general assumed--correctly--that the term no longer inspired revulsion in young audiences. He says it's something else, but maybe this is what Clark means by the New American Patriotism. New faces, no memories. Fresh recruits to replace the defeatists. A new base for Big Win thinking.
--------

?
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. I am locking this thread.
This is flamebait.


NYer99
DU Moderator
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