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Some Moran Donating Member (675 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 06:32 PM
Original message
Shariah will soon be an acceptable method of dispute resolution in Canada
http://www.lawtimesnews.com/Main5.html

What do you all think?

I'm not a fan of this. I don't like the idea of each individual group within Canada being governed by different laws.
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barbaraann Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. I don't think it will happen.
"Muslim view of the death penalty
A Muslim may be sentenced to death under Shariah, Islamic law, for the murder of a Muslim, adultery, apostasy (deserting Islam), a third conviction for drinking alcohol and a fifth conviction for theft. A dhimmi (zimmi, non-Muslim living in an Islamic state) can be executed for sex with a Muslim woman, and "persecution" of Islam, for example blasphemy against Allah or Prophet Muhammad, or attempting to proselytise, i.e. convert a Muslim from his religion."

Canadians will never allow the death penalty, for one thing.

http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment#Muslim_view_of_the_death_penalty
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pink_poodle Donating Member (605 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
2. Nope, I don't see this happening in Canada..................
As an Immigrant from the UK to Canada, I find that even though they are now accommodating "alternate" religions and races, there are limits - in other words - your culture is great if it is a contribution instead of upsetting the apple cart. This is too extreme for the general population here to accept. However, if there get to be a majority of them here, then who knows some day..........?????
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_Jumper_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. There will never be a Muslim majority in Canada
n/t
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pink_poodle Donating Member (605 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Well, no one knows that there will "never" not be..............
a Muslim majority here. Okay. So the real reason this would never works is because we have NO death penalty here and the population think it's barbaric and would not support death penalties. No matter what ethnic group wants it. They have to live under the laws of the land.
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_Jumper_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Only 15% of immigrants to Canada are Muslim
The situation in Canada, America, and Australia is far different than that in Europe with respect to Muslim immigration.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. please, please
Edited on Wed Nov-26-03 07:51 PM by iverglas
You have responded with a knee-jerk reaction that it is hard not to perceive as racist.

Did you read the article? Do you have any understanding of what arbitration is, and what it applies to -- and does not apply to?

Do you realize that dragging the death penalty (which is practised by a whole lot of NON-Muslims in our nearest and dearest neighbour nation) into the discussion is nothing but inflammatory, since the issue being discussed has NOTHING to do with criminal law?

"They have to live under the laws of the land."

And amazingly enough, that is EXACTLY what the article indicates that they both want and plan to do. The laws of the land basically allow anyone to have a civil dispute decided by whomever, and by whatever rules, they like, as long as those rules meet certain basic minimum standards. Are *you* suggesting that Muslims should not have, or take advantage of, the benefits of those laws just as anyone else can?

Or do you really just not know what you're talking about? I've posted an explanation lower in the thread that might help you, in that case.

.

(edited to insert omitted "by")
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pink_poodle Donating Member (605 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. WTF??? What are talking about? If you are trying..............
to accuse me of being racist, I laugh in your face. Either you need to re-read me or forget about me because you are so way off base it is not even funny.

I am saying that death penalty is not acceptable here in Canada no matter who you are - simple as that. Read me again.......Thank you. And please DO NOT put words into my mouth - thank you very much.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. your own words are sufficient

"I am saying that death penalty is not acceptable here in Canada no matter who you are - simple as that. Read me again.......Thank you. And please DO NOT put words into my mouth - thank you very much."


I'll ask again.

What does the death penalty have to do with the topic of this thread?

Why do you insinuate that the Muslims seeking to apply their own rules to PRIVATE CIVIL DISPUTES in Canada are attempting to subvert Canadian law and society by imposing the death penalty on someone?

I'll look forward to your explanation.

.
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pink_poodle Donating Member (605 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. Whatever you say. -nm
:
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 06:47 PM
Response to Original message
3. Strange things North of the Border
eeewwwwww! I prefer modern enlightened constitutions to ancient texts for everyone.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #3
15. personal preferences
"eeewwwwww! I prefer modern enlightened constitutions to ancient texts for everyone."

Me, I prefer thinking, and knowing what I'm talking about, before speaking.

I'm just appalled that some in this thread don't seem to share *my* preference.

If you'd like to see a REAL "modern enlightened constitution", take a gander here:

http://www.efc.ca/pages/law/charter/charter.text.html

That's the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, Part I of the Constitution Act, 1982.

Nothing that the proposal under discussion here involves would permit violations of the rights set out in the Charter. And it is extraordinarily offensive to assume -- there being nothing in the article posted here to suggest -- that the Muslims engaged in this WANT to violate those rights.

A lot of people seem to have missed what was actually said in the heading of this thread:

Shariah will soon be an acceptable method of dispute resolution in Canada

Homicides are not "disputes". Theft is not a dispute, sexual assault is not a dispute, robbery is not a dispute, fraud is not a dispute. "He sold me a car that won't go and I want my money back" is a dispute, for pity's sake.

.
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_Jumper_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
6. Ban it
Edited on Wed Nov-26-03 06:56 PM by _Jumper_
We need one law for the nation.

Muslims shoot themselves in the foot yet again. Instead of assimilating they seek to create a parallel society and fail to recognize the cost of doing this.
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
8. The article does not say what you claim
I think you didn't understand the what the article is about.

There is nothing in there about "each individual group within Canada being governed by different laws."

Every group or sub-culture develops mechanisms for resolving disputes. Nothing in the article implies that when laws are broken members of this group will be able to evade legal consequences by choosing aribtration by imams any more than deists in other communities would be able to use an an opinion by their clerics as a shield against legal action.
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_Jumper_ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. It will still be a problem
Sharia law is arguably the most backwards legal code on Earth. Using it in a modern nation such as Canada will do nothing but increase fear of and hostility toward Muslims.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. tell us what you know

"Sharia law is arguably the most backwards legal code on Earth."

Money where the mouth is.

What, exactly, do you know about the Shari'a rules of CIVIL law, that apply to PRIVATE disputes?

Please cite those bits that you regard as "backwards", and explain what is "backwards" about them.

Thank you.

.
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MrMonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. As I understand the article
decisions made by the Muslim arbitrators are enforceable (apparently without review) by the Canadian courts. That may put the courts in the position of enforcing decisions that would otherwise be contrary to Canadian law.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. more ...
"As I understand the article"
decisions made by the Muslim arbitrators are enforceable
(apparently without review) by the Canadian courts."


Well, you understood it wrong. And with that name? You don't know the difference between "appeal" and "review"?

You too: please read my initial post lower in the thread; it quotes from the relevant law. The one that expressly provides for review.

"That may put the courts in the position of enforcing decisions
that would otherwise be contrary to Canadian law."


It is not contrary to Canadian, or much of any other, law for parties to decide, by mutual agreement, what rules will apply in the event that a dispute arises between them regarding a civil matter.

Not crime, not marriage or divorce, not child custody, not anything else that actually is governed by LAW and that falls within the scope of public policy.

Muslims, like everybody else in Ontario, will now be able to have that agreement enforced by a court. Nobody will be able to impose Shari'a law on anyone who does not agree to abide by it in a civil dispute.

.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
11. oh, my
Everybody take a valium, in the words that the great cartoonist Aislin put in René Lévesque's mouth the morning after the Parti Québécois won the 1976 Quebec election. Let's just read it a little more carefully, shall we?

The basic idea is that Muslims (or anyone else) would be able to submit civil disputes -- CIVIL disputes -- to an arbitration board that agreed, before hearing the case, to apply a particular set of rules.

We are currently free to submit our civil disputes to an arbitration board that decides cases by flipping coins, or reading the entrails of chickens, if we so desire. We can also ask our mothers to decide who gets which piece of cake.

The development that is significant in this is that the civil courts will now automatically enforce arbitral awards.

Syed explained that until recent changes in the law, Canadian Muslims have been excused from applying Shariah in their legal disputes.

Arbitration was not deemed to be practical because there was no way to enforce the decisions. Syed said the laws have recently changed with amendments to the Arbitration Act.

"Now, once an arbitrator decides cases, it is final and binding. The parties can go to the local secular Canadian court asking that it be enforced. The court has no discretion in the matter.

Use of such arbitration boards will be entirely within each individual's discretion. A Muslim who had a civil claim against another Muslim and who did not like his/her chances before an arbitration board that applied Shari'a would simply institute an action in a court, and not request that the other side agree to arbitration instead, and not include a Shari'a arbitration clause in any contracts s/he signed. If either party to a contract or dispute did not agree to submit disputes to Shari'a arbitration, then they would not be submitted to Shari'a arbitration.

The only difficulty that I do think might be foreseeable is that individuals might be pressured into making or defending claims in arbitration under Shari'a when they would prefer to go to court. As the article notes, Canadian Muslims who consider themselves to be bound to observe Shari'a have been exempted, by their religious authorities, from doing so, because those rules could not be enforced here previously. Now, pressure from religious authorities and community leaders could mean that they would waive rights or remedies that they would have in the judicial system.

On that point:

The committee is hopeful that the system will be accepted by the Muslim community at large, and in particular, Muslim women. There was only one woman present at the convention. Bibi Zainob Baksh attended in her capacity as president of the Ladies' Muslim Organization. She pointed out that there has been a mediation service in the past but it folded when it failed to attract Muslim women. She is of the opinion that if the present initiative comes to fruition, women will participate "later" in the process.


These boards really are not going to be able to order that people's hands be cut off, y'know. They're going to be making awards of monetary damages, perhaps settling estate disputes, that sort of thing. They will have absolutely NOTHING to do with criminal law.

And the jurisdiction of the courts is not going to be completely ousted. I believe that this is the Ontario statute in question:

http://www.canlii.org/on/sta/cson/20030327/s.o.1991c.17/whole.html

2. (1) This Act applies to an arbitration conducted under an arbitration agreement unless,

(a) the application of this Act is excluded by law; ...

46. (1) On a party's application, the court may set aside an award on any of the following grounds:

... 3. The award deals with a dispute that the arbitration agreement does not cover or contains a decision on a matter that is beyond the scope of the agreement.

... 5. The subject-matter of the dispute is not capable of being the subject of arbitration under Ontario law.

... 8. An arbitrator has committed a corrupt or fraudulent act or there is a reasonable apprehension of bias.

9. The award was obtained by fraud.



The good parts of this? The people quoted in the article note some:

- court proceedings are 'foreign' to some cultures, to which the publicity and slowness are distasteful and for whose members they cause distress -- and there is no reason that the host society should not accommodate those people's feelings in private matters;

- this is an opportunity to increase cohesion within the disparate Muslim community.

I would note, on the latter part, that increased cohesion can have a *beneficial* effect for the larger Canadian community, in that there may be greater recognition of legitimate authority within the community on the part of members of that community, and this could result in greater influence on, say, young people within that community, and ultimately more rather than less successful integration of those young people into the larger community.

The sociological theory/practice is a little complex, but essentially newcomers to a society tend to do better when they have strong ties within an organized subcommunity of ethnocultural/linguistic affinity. Enabling individuals in the community to apply their own rules to private matters, which is what civil disputes are, so long as no public policy of Canada is violated (e.g. as long as sex/race/religion equality rights within the procedure are respected), could benefit everyone.

.
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Lisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 07:36 PM
Response to Original message
12. Charter of Rights and Freedoms still takes precedence ...
Edited on Wed Nov-26-03 08:09 PM by Lisa
A similar type of approach is being used in some aboriginal communities, where a combination of traditional cultural laws and Canadian justice is applied.

From what I understand of it (I can ask a prof who's in my building to clarify) -- if there is a penalty in the traditional code that is illegal under Canadian law, it doesn't get applied. Someone earlier mentioned executions ... I imagine that "the lash" and other things that would fit under "cruel and unusual punishment" would not be allowed either. As Iverglas said, no chopping!

The example explained to me was slavery ... here on the west coast, some of the First Nations practiced it. Even if a group could prove that the historical punishment for rape or murder was the offender giving up all rights and being made to serve as a slave (even temporarily) -- nope. Not anymore.

Conversely, if the tradition of the group was that the chief's family was immune from prosecution -- no, they'd have to be accountable too. So if some bigwig's son stole a car and was let off without any punishment/restitution, that also wouldn't be acceptable. The goal seems to be fairness, and meting out equivalent responses -- re: the earlier concerns about different groups being treated unequally under the law.

These reforms got started because people questioned whether sending aboriginal offenders to jail was doing any good, in terms of "teaching a lesson" or helping the victims. That bit Iverglas mentioned above ... there's a lot of agreement among social workers that one reason why young native people often end up in trouble with the law is a combination of not being able to afford legal counsel, and feeling isolated from aboriginal and mainstream Canadian cultures.

So far these alternative approaches to justice usually seem to apply to "minor" stuff like property crimes (theft under xxx$, vandalism) -- that normally would be going to small claims court. Nothing said about the big-name things like assault or worse.

Any legal system covers a wide variety of situations -- and given that Christianity, Islam, and Judaism came from similar cultural roots, there are likely principles in Shariah that are similar to Canadian civil law.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. whew - are you as shocked and appalled as I am?
Blessed relief, somebody who can be counted on to use a little thought, and apply a little common decency, to an issue. (Not just "a little": figure of speech!)

Shocked and appalled I am, not at the concept that is the subject of this post, but at the horrific prejudice and ignorance that it has been met with. Absolutely shocked and appalled, without a hint of hyperbole.

I'll just say that you've got the right attitude, of course, but the facts are still a bit fuzzy.

Aboriginal justice initiatives do apply to the criminal law. That really is a whole 'nother issue, even though some of the theory behind it is similar to the one before us, as you've noted. The initiative that the article is about just will not have anything to do with criminal justice, or any kind of punishment.

"given that Christianity, Islam, and Judaism came from similar cultural roots, there are likely principles in Shariah that are similar to Canadian civil law."

Forgive me, but ... duh, eh?

You don't know what Shari'a says specifically, but you assume that it's more or less civilized.

Others don't know what Shari'a says at all, and they assume that it's the height of barbarism ... when all we're talking about anyway is the equivalent of small claims court cases in probably most instances. Yup, they're gonna start beheading people who don't make the payments on the Chevy.

I have to go somewhere and grind my teeth now. Sometimes enough is really too much.

.

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Lisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. I asked a Muslim friend about his view of laws ...
Edited on Wed Nov-26-03 08:43 PM by Lisa
He's not a lawyer by training, but the impression I got is that their legal system has quite a long and complex history (and it differs depending on where you come from). So assuming that all Shari'a is going to be harsh and dictatorial -- well, isn't that kind of simplistic? Every set of cultural traditions I know of (and I've had to read a whole bunch of stuff as prep for teaching a cultural geography course) has things in it that you and I might agree with, and things that we think are silly and/or completely uncalled for. All I said was that there are likely going to be SOME points that actually agree with things we already have in Canadian law (given that Islam and Christianity got started in the same part of the world and have some precepts in common). "Principles", not "the principles" or even "main principles".

And given how lawyers work, these'll be the types of things that they would focus on when setting up this kind of "system within a system". An experimental situation, using a potentially-controversial body of law -- only a completely whacked-out legal scholar (or someone who wanted to sabotage things) would pick out the most divisive points and try to implement them!

A woman in my department is working on a system for integrating traditional First Nations fisheries law with current DFO regulations. She tells me that she thinks their best bet is to go with things that seem reasonable to both groups, and not force the extreme stuff into the agreement at all, because this'll be hard enough as it is.

I see you agree with my point re: small claims court. Kudos for pointing out the difference between dispute resolution in your earlier posts, and crimes in general. I didn't clarify that the parallel situation I mentioned (aboriginal justice) has come up in both the civil and criminal contexts, while the topic of note is just in the area of civil disputes, though I should have. And that the "criminal" stuff has mostly been things like juvenile offences and minor property crimes.

I mean, we think "crime", and automatically stuff like rape and serial killers spring to mind -- I admit, I'm like that too -- but as you say, that's a whole different area altogether.

Given that my students have asked me all kinds of stuff about Catholics, Jews, French-Canadians, black people, Asians .... no, I find it really hard to get shocked and appalled about anything anymore. This thread is relatively mild and well-informed by comparison.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
21. Thanks Iverglas and Lisa!
Your responses were very well stated and contained the facts behind the issue. This is just a further acknowledgement of our multiculturalism and is something that we should see as positive, imo.
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Lisa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
23. update on the population statistics
Edited on Wed Nov-26-03 09:13 PM by Lisa
http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census01/Products/Analytic/companion/rel/canada.cfm

"Among this group, those who identified themselves as Muslim recorded the biggest increase, more than doubling from 253,300 in 1991 to 579,600 in 2001."

So, not as high as the figure cited in the article, though perhaps by the end of the decade, if trends remain constant?

Also important to note that not all those in this number may still be practicing (my informant, who moved here from Iran prior to the Revolution, says he hasn't gone into a mosque in years) -- and also, not all of them would necessarily choose an alternative to the mainstream Canadian justice system, if they had a choice.

Actually, if one counts all the Christian denominations together (and there are plenty of Christians I know who would disagree) -- the largest minorities would be "no religion" (almost 4.8 million), and then the Muslims. I remember that we went over the numbers in class last week, and people were surprised by the patterns.

p.s. I found this Shari'a site rather interesting (thanks to Iverglas for the suggestion that I should do some more research)
http://www.ospolitics.org/socialeyes/archives/2003/10/05/trying_to_.php
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. I notice that
Some Moran (who initiated this thread with an inflammatory mischaracterization of what was tasking place within a part of Canada's Muslim population as the idea of "each individual group within Canada being governed by different laws") hasn't acknowledged this discussion.

But, fortunately for DU readers, the discussion did not take the divisive path the initial post presented, and I learned a bit more about Canada. Even with the best of intentions, what we "get" out of news reports like this depends on what we bring to it, including a life history that contains some past exposure to disinformation campaigns and partisan propaganda. Catching this sort of misdirection early is what keeps DU a valuable resource. Thanks.
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Pompitous_Of_Love Donating Member (142 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-26-03 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. A question
Guys, what happens when a plaintiff doesn't like the decision made under Shari'a? To whom does he or she appeal?
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