Why not invade Israel?

[DuctapeFatwa]

if the removal by armed force of one disagreeable regime under one objectionable head of government is a good thing, why stop there? The world is full of horrible governments. Would it not be a good idea to make a clean sweep of them?


Where, then, do we start? There is a multiplicity of horrible or incompetent governments in central and west Africa, for example, in countries where the toll of dead and tortured far exceeds even the total gassed, executed and mangled by Saddam. Their removal, and replacement by genuine democratic governments seeking to reconcile rather than repress, would be an indisputable benefit to humankind...

And would it not be poetic justice to invade the invaders? After all, the Israelis, who illegally invaded Lebanon until they found the going too tough and got out; the Turks, who illegally invaded Cyprus and even aspire to be a member of the European Union when in illegal possession of part of a country which is due to become a member of the European Union less than six months from now; the Moroccans, who continue to thwart the will of the United Nations with every moment their troops and immigrants remain in the Western Sahara — surely they could not have the effrontery to object to invasion, which they have practised without qualm, simply because they would be at the receiving end...

If the United States is keen to invade countries that disrupt international standards of order, should not Israel, for example, be considered as a candidate? ...After all, has not the United States, on the basis of dubious legality, invaded nearby countries on the American continent, such as Panama and Grenada? Has it not got a questionable human rights record, with the level of capital punishment, including the execution of mentally retarded prisoners, one of the worst in the democratic world? Is it not keeping a collection of prisoners in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, whose detention appears to have no legal basis whatever? And does it not have a president who was never elected, but appointed by the Supreme Court after electoral finagling in the electorally clinching state which just happens to be governed by that president’s brother? Who, then, should invade the United States?

http://www.spectator.co.uk/article.php3?table=old§ion=current&issue=2003-11-22&id=3761

[MrSoundAndVision]

1. We start in Africa, two months ago!

EOM

[Bonobo]

2. I got it! We invade ourselves!

BTW, you might enjoy this link:

http://www.duke.org/

[DuctapeFatwa]

3. you think that anyone who opposes bush or sharon regimes likes David Duke?

Some assumptions are interesting enough that their lack of logic is secondary.

[Bonobo]

6. Wow, I didn't see that coming.

If you think your original post contained even a microgram of subtlety, you should check yourself. I am not a supporter of Sharon by the way, and I make it a point to not equate criticism of Sharon and Israel with anti-semitism. Why? Because I am Jewish and a strong critic of Israel's occupation.

But your post reeks of Jew-baiting, anti-semitism. Sorry.

[Bombtrack]

8. amen, this kind of crap and ignorance is what turns people conservative

these "liberals" who think that practically everything Israel and/or America does is wrong and everything the palestians/muslims do is justified

[muriel_volestrangler]

9. I don't think there are any words from DuctapeFatwa

they all come from Gerald Kaufman, a British Jewish Labour MP

[DuctapeFatwa]

14. I am not now, nor have I ever been Gerald Kaufman. Nor do I play him on TV

In fact, I didn't even sleep at a Holiday Inn last night ;)

[DuctapeFatwa]

16. Are you asking me for MP Kaufman's email?

I'm sure you can reach him in care of the Spectator.

[regnaD kciN]

60. Wow, it only took six replies...

...before the "Anti-Semitism Card" got played.

[Bombtrack]

4. Israel has contributed more to humankind per capita than probably any

country. It doesn't need propanda reading American leftists to plot it's distruction. It already has practically the entire muslim world wanting every israeli man woman and child dead

[DuctapeFatwa]

19. It has certainly contributed more than its share of dead Muslim children

Which I realize is a source of great joy and pride to a large majority of the US affluent voting class.

[Andromeda]

67. You elevator doesn't go all the way to the top,

DuctapeFatwa. I love Israel and I want her to be strong and prosperous. I also love Muslims. My son-in-law is a Muslim and he is a wonderful human being so don't you dare say that I would rejoice in the death and suffering of Muslim children.

Your radical political agenda will do more to divide us than anything that the Jewish and Muslim people could possibly do.

[DuctapeFatwa]

71. I said the majority of American voters. Now tell me about my agenda

I would be interested to know more about it.

[durutti]

26. Wha...?

First of all: your statement that "practically the entire muslim world" wants "every israeli man and woman dead" is not only false, but bigoted.

Second, I don't know of any leftist who wants to see Israel's "destruction". Some leftists favor a two-state solution. Others favor a binational state in which the rights of both Jews and Arabs are protected. Me, I'm a fence-sitter.

Third, you give absolutely no evidence to support your assertion that Israel has "contributed more to humankind per capita than probably any country" -- because (I suspect) you have none.

[Bombtrack]

45. oh really?

Because I suspect that the author subscribes to the anti-zionist viewpoint, and that's what anti-zionism almost accross the board calls for, the destruction of the state of Israel.

And I am not bigoted when I say that in general the muslim world is fiercly hostile towards israelis and i might add, anti-semitic. That is not to say that a person of arab or muslim decent is inherently bad or anything like that, but the governments and aristocrats who run the governments of the vast majority of the mulim world, and who are driving islam right now, use Israeli scapegoating and anti-semitism as a fundemental part of there influence.

This intolerance and corrution of almost every muslim ruling class pales in comparison to the acts of Israeli hard-liners, who themselves are only a minority in the Israeli government

as far as Israels contributions to society here you go:

Israel, the 100th smallest country, with less than 1/1000th of the world's population, can make claim to the following:

I. Israel has the highest ratio of university degrees relative to their population in the world.

II. Israel produces more scientific papers per capita than any other nation by a large margin - 109 per 10,000 people - as well as one of the highest per capita rates of patents filed.

III. In proportion to its population, Israel has the largest number of startup companies in the world. In absolute terms, Israel has a larger number of startup companies than any other country in the world, except the US (3,500 companies, mostly in hi-tech).

IV. Israel is ranked #2 in the world for venture capital funds. Right behind the US.

V. Outside the United States and Canada, Israel has the largest number of NASDAQ listed companies.

VI. Israel has the highest average living standards in the Middle East. The per capita income in 2000 was over $17,500, exceeding that of the UK. (and that's without oil wells!)

VII. With an aerial arsenal of over 250 F-16s, Israel has the largest fleet of these aircraft outside of the US.

VIII. Israel's $100 billion economy is larger than all of its immediate neighbors combined.

IX. On a per capita basis, Israel has the largest number of biotech start-ups. 24% of Israel's workforce holds university degrees - ranking third in the industrialized world, after the United States and Holland - and 12 percent hold advanced degrees.

X. Israel is the only liberal democracy in the Middle East.

XI. In 1984 and 1991, Israel air lifted a total of 22,000 Ethiopian Jews at risk in Ethiopia to safety in Israel.

XII. When Gold Meir was elected P. M. of Israel in 1969, she became the world's second elected female leader in modern times.

XIII. When the U. S. Embassy in Nairobi, Kenya was bombed in 1998, Israeli rescue teams were on the scene within a day - and saved three victims from the rubble.

IXX. Israel has the third highest rate of entrepreneurship & the highest rate among women and among people over 55 - in the world.

XX. Relative to its population, Israel is the largest immigrant-absorbing nation on earth. Immigrants come in search of democracy, religious freedom, and economic opportunity.

XXI. According to industry officials, Israel designed the airline industry's most impenetrable flight security. U. S. officials now look to Israel for advice on how to handle airborne security threats.

XXII. Israel's Maccabia basketball team won the European championships in 2001.

XXIII. Israeli tennis player Anna Smashnova is the 15th ranked female player in the world.

XXIV. Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers was produced by Haim Saban, an Israeli whose family fled persecution in Egypt.

XXV. In 1991, during the Gulf War, the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra played a concert wearing gas masks as scud missiles fired by Saddam Hussein fell on Tel Aviv.

XXVI. Israel has the world's 2nd highest/capita quantity of new books.

XXVII. Israel is the only country in the world that entered the 21st century with a net gain in its number of trees.

XXVIII. Israel has more museums per capita than any other country.

XXIX. Israel has two official languages: Hebrew and Arabic.

XXX. Medicine: Israeli scientists developed the first fully computerized, no-radiation, diagnostic instrumentation for breast cancer.

XXXI. An Israeli company developed a computerized system for ensuring proper administration of medications, thus removing human error from medical treatment. Every year in U. S. hospitals 7,000 patients die from treatment mistakes.

XXXII. Israel's Givun imaging developed the first ingestible video camera, so small it fits inside a pill. Used to view the small intestine from the inside, the camera helps doctors diagnose cancer and digestive disorders.

XXXIII. Researchers in Israel developed a new device that directly helps the heart pump blood, an innovation with the potential to save lives among those with congestive heart failure. The new device is synchronized with the heart's mechanical operations through a sophisticated system of sensors.

XXXIV. Technology with more than 3,000 high-tech companies and start-ups, Israel has the highest concentration of hi-tech companies in the world (apart from the Silicon Valley).

XXXV. In response to serious water shortages, Israeli engineers and agriculturalists developed a revolutionary drip irrigation system to minimize the amount of water used to grow crops.

XXXVI. Israel has the highest percentage in the world of home computers per capita.

XXXVII. Israel leads the world in the number of scientists and technicians in the workforce, with 145 per 10,000, as opposed to 85 in the U. S., over 70 in Japan, and less than 60 in Germany. Over 25% of its work force is employed in technical professions. Israel places first in this category as well.

XXXVIII. The cell phone was developed in Israel by Motorola, which has its largest development center in Israel.

XXXIX. Most of the Windows NT operating system was developed by Microsoft-Israel. The Pentium MMX Chip technology was designed in Israel at Intel.

XL. Voice mail technology was developed in Israel.

XLI. Both Microsoft and Cisco built their only R&D facilities outside the US in Israel.

XLII. The technology for AOL Instant Messenger was developed in 1996 by four young Israelis.

XLIII. A new acne treatment developed in Israel, the ClearLight device, produces a high-intensity, ultraviolet-light-free, narrow-band blue light that causes acne bacteria to self-destruct - all without damaging surroundings skin or tissue.
XLIV.
An Israeli company was the first to develop and install a large-scale solar-powered and fully functional electricity generating plant, in southern California's Mojave desert.

XLV. The first PC anti-virus software was developed in Israel in 1979. WOW!!! Think how much better our world could be if the Israelis were freed from external and unnecessary stresses that take so many lives!

[texas is the reason]

59. oh...my...god....

you left out "XLVI.- israelis contribute an average of one to two bowel movements to society a day. these bowel movements are unique in the world because israeli's shit doesn't stink like other people's shit..." - oh, and i love how you consider the posession of 250
f-16's (which WE gave them) a "contribution to society"...almost as big a contribution as all those unaccounted for nuclear weapons israel posesses...and finally, there would be no "anti-zionism" if there were not so many damn zionists. at a base level, zionists feel that they are "god's chosen people", and thus better than everyone else. if a southern, white christian man in a hood said the same things, he would be (rightly) branded as a bigot and a racist- but if a jew says it, this is somehow accepted for fear of being called an "anti-semite". this is complete bullshit, just like your whoop-de-do israel's greatest hits list above.

[regnaD kciN]

62. Chutzpah Award of the Month!

VI. Israel has the highest average living standards in the Middle East. The per capita income in 2000 was over $17,500, exceeding that of the UK.

Yep, it's pretty easy to have the "highest average living standards" when you seize the prime agricultural land and water sources of another people, then keep them around in what are essentially open-air jails to serve as cheap labor with no "worker's rights" to worry about. I bet the plantation owners in the antebellum South had pretty high living standards, too.

:puke:

And, by the way, what on earth does having high living standards have to do with contributing to the world as a whole? By that rationale, those in Beverly Hills, Lake Forest, or several rich (and conservative Republican) suburbs of Houston, Dallas, or Miami have contributed far more to the world than all of us liberals put together. So should we all shut up and refuse to criticize rich conservative Republicans?

:eyes:

[Samaka 3ajiba]

70. 1.6 Trillion Dollars Given to Israel

... since 1973. And that's excluding other nations such as Germany that funnell a lot of money there. It looks to me like some of those so called "contributions to human kind" were jointly made with the US taxpayer.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.html

[bread_and_roses]

28. Propaganda?

I suppose this is propaganda too:

"No wonder that only three weeks ago the Israeli chief of staff, Lieutenant General Moshe Ya’alon, expressed concern about the building of the wall, said the Israeli government’s policies were ‘operating contrary to our strategic interests,’ argued that the restrictions were increasing hatred of Israel and encouraging terrorism, and lamented: ‘There is no hope, no expectations for the Palestinians in the Gaza strip, nor in Bethlehem and Jericho’ (whose agricultural and horticultural economy is being ruined). No wonder that a member of the Israeli government, the infrastructure minister, Yosef Paritzky, has said recently: ‘The failure to differentiate between civilians and terrorists turns all the Palestinians into potential suicide bombers.’"
http://www.spectator.co.uk/article.php3?table=old§ion=current&issue=2003-11-22&id=3761

If the media in the US were in any way unbiased, it would report on the considerable opposition that exists within Israel itself to the illegal acts of the Sharon govmt against the Palastinians, and factual accounts of the acts of that govmt would not be labeled as "propaganda" or "anti-Semitism." It is perfectly possible to oppose the oppression, injustice, and terror perpetuated by the Israeli govmnt without hating the Israeli people, just as it is possible to oppose terrorist acts against the Israeli people by Palastinians without hating the Palastinian people, just as it is possible for an American to be a patriot while opposing some acts of the US govmt.

Nor is the sole focus of the article Israel, which is but one example of how ludicrous is the arguement that we went to war because Saddam was a torturing murdering monster. Which he was when we supported him, as are/were any number of murderous tyrants that we support for economic gain. This is as much a part of our history as any of the good we have done in the world. And as the world's superpower, unless we are willing to face our own actions, learn from them, and change, we will continue to be loathed and feared around the world.

[mmm]

5. I would pay double in taxes

...

[Jim Sagle]

7. If you read the whole article, the author is clearly not advocating

invading Israel. His main thrust is isolationism - we shouldn't be invading anyone.

Did you miss that?

[DuctapeFatwa]

11. huh? I posted the article

I did not have a problem comprehending it.

I am sure you have a point that is so subtle as to be lost on me.

My personal preference regarding both Israel and the US is that they be demilitarized without anyone having to invade.

Although it may not appear so at the moment, the rest of the world will not allow two pariah non-states to brutalize the planet indefinitely.

[Bonobo]

15. "pariah non-states"??? Huh?

What the hell does that mean?? Guess I'm dumb.

[DuctapeFatwa]

18. It means that both US and Israel have forfeited any claim to nationhood

however sketchy, that they may once have aspired to.

Both should be voted out of the UN, and all land involved declared UN protectorates under the administration of a coalition of all nations where each currently has "operatives."

[Muddleoftheroad]

29. Who put you in charge?

Clearly, both remain nations and, until the Palestinian people wise up, throw out Arafat and choose peace, they won't be granted similar status.

And, frankly, it would be almost humorous to watch the UN take on the U.S.

[DuctapeFatwa]

32. Who put me in charge of my opinion?

MP Kaufman's article is about rogue "states" engaging in aggression against others.

He is against it.

So am I.

The policies of neither the US or Israel are in the best interests of their own citizens, nor are they compatible with the long-term survival of humankind on the planet.

Both should be disarmed, demilitarized, and administered, as I said, by a coalition of all nations, including Palestine, where each is currently engaging in "operations."

[Muddleoftheroad]

33. Talk about disarmed

The Palestinians -- many of whom like to blow up themselves in fun places like pizza parlors and schools and buses -- need to be disarmed.

Fortunately, your "opinion" has no chance of happening.

[DuctapeFatwa]

36. I am advocating the more conservative, less violent solution

You are correct that "my opinion has little chance of happening."

What will happen will be a lot worse for Americans and Israelis alike, and involve a lot more bloodshed.

The notion that the right of self-defense is a privilege to be granted or revoked by the US, while popular with both bush and sharon regime loyalists, does not inspire the same enthusiasm in the rest of the world.

Together, the US and Israel have about 340 million people.

The world has about 6 billion.

Most of my opinions involve saving lives as opposed to generating revenue for the defense industry.

[Muddleoftheroad]

38. Less violent?

You are advocating the destruction of two nations and a world war. In what fantasy is that less violent?

Oh, and conveniently, it would also wipe out the two nations with the only large Jewish populations. Hmmm, wonder what would happen to them...

[DuctapeFatwa]

42. I have already addressed the question of destruction

I understand that the deaths of a large number of both Americans and Israelis would benefit the defense industry, and politicians with access to bunkers, and for that reason is favored by bush and sharon regime loyalists.

I am not a fan of either regime or the weapons industry, so my preference would naturally be for a solution that would save the lives of people who do not have access to bunkers.

[Muddleoftheroad]

43. So what do you suppose the people in those two nations would do?

You don't think they would just accept death or conquest do you? (And in the case of Israel, the two would likely go hand in hand.)

Your ideas are dangerously naive. Fortunately, no one will take them seriously.

[DuctapeFatwa]

47. LOL I don;t think you realize how you sound!

The US and Israel both expect that their victims will just "accept death or conquest."

In fact, that is the basis of the foreign policy of both.

I am sorry to say that you will probably get your bloodbath.

Odd that you should be so eager for it, unless you are one of those who DOES have access to a bunker ;)

[Muddleoftheroad]

49. You are making the classic mistake

Of calling the current leadership (sic) in D.C. the U.S. It is not.

And I am not eager for a bloodbath or conquest by hostile (and in many cases anti-Semitic) foreign powers.

[DuctapeFatwa]

55. Where are the crowds storming the White House?

The voting classes overwhelmingly support both the Crusade and the bush/sharon regimes.

Now that 75% non-affluent, non-voting majority is a whole nother saucepan bubbling on borrowed time, and another excellent argument for my solution...

[Muddleoftheroad]

72. Your solution...

Is not even a science fiction concept. Much like the one-state solution, it is a ridiculous concept.

[DuctapeFatwa]

87. Muddle, there is a world beyond the US and its pit bull

Countries are a TV show that keeps on taping even after the network sends its cancellation notice.

The primitive tribalism and other-hating may make money in the short term for the weapons companies you admire, but that road does not lead to survival.

I do not favor the extermination of the many to benefit the few.

We will just have to agree to disagree on that one.

[Muddleoftheroad]

89. Favoring extermination

Your fantasy of the world would result in extermination of millions in the U.S. and Israel -- conveniently the two nations with the largest Jewish populations.

Why you choose those two nations instead of nations like China, North Korea, Syria, Etc. in entirely unclear.

[DuctapeFatwa]

92. LOL I don't think many people of any faith will survive if earth blows up

I realize that a few years ago, there were reports that the US and Israel were trying to develop weapons that could target a particular ethnicity, I am not sure about the credibility of that, while I do not doubt that there is the desire for such a thing, science does not bend to desire.

The reality is that the kind of catastrophic WMD attacks, regardless of who against whom first or when or why are simply not going to kill only people who disagree with the US, or people whose ethnicity or religion you or Ariel Sharon or Jerry Falwell does not like.

[Muddleoftheroad]

94. What a strawman

To discuss a "ethnicity" attack and Israel in the same sentence. Israel, which is as multicultural as you can find in the Mideast, would be devastated by such a plan. To even give it marginal credence destroys yours.

As for the rest, given your comments about WMD, why do you propose a world war in your fantasy?

[DuctapeFatwa]

98. Please see reply below

I think you can have a much more productive discussion about this with someone whose posts you actually read.

[durutti]

34. Who put you in charge, Muddle?

Ductape was expressing his personal view -- one that he arrived at after thinking for himself, something you consistenly demonstrate an inability to do.

Why do the Palestinians have to throw out Arafat? Why can't we say the Israelis have to throw out Sharon, with his equally murderous history?

The Palestinians chose peace throughout the Oslo years. What did they get? Even more settlements. So shut up about the Palestinians "choosing peace". It hasn't worked -- and I suspect you already knew that.

[Muddleoftheroad]

35. He was advocating the destruction of two states of which I am fond

I take umbrage at that.

As or personal views, clearly he was expressing his ideal, "if I were king" scenario. Fortunately, he ain't king.

The Palestinians want a nation. To get one, they need Israel's help. Israel won't grant that help unless the Palestinians offer real, actual peace -- the kind of peace where the many Palestinian terror groups get shut down forever. Arafat won't do it. Ergo, if they want peace, Arafat must go.

As for shutting up, not likely.

[DuctapeFatwa]

40. Both those "nations" have destroyed themselves from within

All that is left is the cleanup.

No one needs help from either to do or be anything.

On the contrary, both US and Israel need the help of the rest of the world if they are to have a future as populated habitable land masses.

[Muddleoftheroad]

41. Sorry they don't meet your standards

That falls in the "too bad" category.

Both nations continue to exist and will continue to do so.

[DuctapeFatwa]

44. Sorry, Muddle, what exist now are gangs of thugs

not nations.

Maybe one day the nations will exist.

The gangs of thugs will cease to do so, one way or another, regardless of how this comes about.

Rome, you may be interested to note, fell.

[Muddleoftheroad]

46. You have a funny definition of nations

Again, fortunately, the world doesn't share the same dictionary with you.

Yes, Rome fell. It took hundreds of years.

[DuctapeFatwa]

48. Yes, a lot of things take less time today than they did back then

Technology, you know...

[Muddleoftheroad]

51. Yes, some things are easier

Like keeping power for a very powerful nation.

[DuctapeFatwa]

56. Or vaporizing one

At this point, there are not any really pleasant choices.

I am in favor of preventing vaporization.

[Muddleoftheroad]

73. Your solution

Would mean conquest and death for many in two nations and, interestingly enough, a large number of Jewish people. Hmmmm...

[DuctapeFatwa]

88. I understand that the Apocalyptic vision

of the Rapture and Jesus and hurling the Jews into a lake of fire is popular in the US, and a sincere religious belief of many.

However, I am opposed to hurling people into lakes of fire on general principle, and I do not share that Apocalyptic fantasy.

I think your dream of mutually assured Obliteration of humankind, whether motivated by religion or desire to see greater revenues generated for the obliteration industry is somewhat short-sighted and not theologically sound.

I do not mean to belittle your religious beliefs, I just think it is possible to respect them without having to sacrifice lives in order to act them out.

[Muddleoftheroad]

90. I don't want anyone obliterated

And I am not the one calling for the world to conquer two nations and cause a world war. That is YOUR fantasy. And it is a disturbing one.

As for, "hurling the Jews into a lake of fire," your fantasy would make that a reality since it would result in the death of not only Israel but the U.S. at the hands of their enemies. How well would the Jewish people survive such a cataclysm?

As for my religious beliefs, they have nothing to do with this discussion.

[DuctapeFatwa]

93. It's about saving the people of all nations and preventing a world war

as opposed to allowing a few people to turn the planet into a Dark Ages serfdom.

People - of all faiths, colors and creeds are more important to me than making General Dynamics richer.

As I said, we will just have to disagree on that, I think you have the right to your beliefs, but I am not obliged to share them.

[Muddleoftheroad]

95. Oh, the classic war to prevent war concept

Yeah, THAT idea works really well. Didn't I hear that one from Rove?

[DuctapeFatwa]

97. Maybe you should discuss this with someone whose posts you read

nt

[The Magistrate]

50. That Is Below Your Accustomed Standard, Mr. Fatwa

What is any state leadership but a gang of thugs?

[DuctapeFatwa]

53. Some gangs are more destructive than others

The US and its pitbull are the ones doing the most damage to the most people at this time in history.

The US has money, and it has guns. It has reached the limit of what it can do with money and guns.

The US has money, and it has guns, and the rest of the world has people, an increasing number of whom have lost loved ones and livelihoods to these particular gang of thugs.

That is not in your best interest.

[The Magistrate]

58. Guns And Money, Sir

Trump damned near any amount of people, sad to say.

Nor will the next bunch of thugs be any more congenial to your outlook. And there will always be a new bunch of thugs: this is a very old situation. The Chinese pictograph for government originated as a sketch of soldiers attacking a house....

[DuctapeFatwa]

68. Utopia is indeed unlikely, however guns and money have their limits

For example, military power cannot stop one individual from blowing him/herself up in a crowd of people.

While the bush regime would be the first to call such an act "militarily insignificant," the relatives of those killed will have a different view.

And so we go back to the inescapable fact that once you reach a critical point of certainty that I am going to kill you whether you do what I want or not, you have lost a pretty big negotiating chunk.

This is why unchecked aggression, brutality and greed on the part of your government are not in YOUR best interests, much less those of the stated victims'.

[regnaD kciN]

63. Talk about living in a fantasy world...

The Palestinians want a nation. To get one, they need Israel's help. Israel won't grant that help unless the Palestinians offer real, actual peace -- the kind of peace where the many Palestinian terror groups get shut down forever.

You don't get it...Israel won't grant that help, period. Whether Arafat goes or stays. Whether the "terrorist groups" are disbanded or not. It would cost the Israeli economy (no more cheap labor, no more access to land and water in the West Bank). It would mean the end of the dream of "Greater Israel," and thus turn the hardliners against whichever party adopted it. Finally, why should Israel bother? It has one of the most powerful armies in the world against a ragtag "militia" force whose only weapon consists of blowing themselves up -- not a good plan for victory.

It's a Catch-22. As long as there's Palestinian terrorism, Israel won't do anything to move toward a two-state solution, as that would be "rewarding terrorism." On the other hand, if the Palestinians "stamped out terror" as Bush and Sharon ceaselessly demand, why would Israel have any reason or need to do anything other than preserve the status quo? The only possible outcomes would be that a) either the Palestinians aquiesce peaceably to being a conquered people forever to live without rights under Israeli domination, or b) frustration building up to a point where terrorism re-entered the picture, in which case see "rewarding terrorism," above.

:-(

[Muddleoftheroad]

74. YOU don't get it

You have no proof that Israel won't reach peace with the Palestinians. Israel made peace with Egypt. Israel made peace with Jordan. Who have the Palestinians made peace with of their former enemies?

Contrary to your opinion, Israelis would like peace. If it were genuinely offered them, they will offer a peace treaty in return. Arafat knows this because he was offered one and turned it down WITHOUT making a counter offer. He is a fool and a corrupt one at that.

Again, sooner or later the Palestinians will get a state if they really wish one. But it will not include every piece of land they want nor will it be perfect in other ways. Much like Ireland had to make concessions to get freedom from England, the Palestinians will have to do the same.

But the clock starts when the Palestinians offer real peace.

[tinanator]

81. "equally murderous"?

How about showing me the equation between Arafat's lifelong struggle and a bloodthirsty slaughtering genocidal war pig like Sharon? I think that case should be made if those statements are to be taken seriously. Talk about moving to the right, Americans are never so critically brainwashed as they are about the great sacred Israeli cow.

[INTELBYTES]

86. Are you trying to give boortz and rush ammo?

This kind of tripe is right up their alley. The right-wing fanatics will love reading this kind of radical crap! Do you really want us to give up our soverienty? Wonder which way the independents will vote when they read your statement?
:puke:

[DuctapeFatwa]

99. I am less concerned about what Rush thinks

than I am about whether his grandchildren, and yours, grow up living in a cave in a nuclear wasteland, if they are born at all.

The situation is a little beyond the question of which if any ectomorph bushlite will be chosen to be the new boy singer for PNAC.

[Bombtrack]

12. yet they chose Israel, a democracy that has the largest history

of hostility and attack, mostly based on anti-semitic propaganda than almost any modern country

Isolationism is dumb. Were you against the invasion of Kosovo? Troops being sent to Somalia? Liberia?

[Bonobo]

13. No, but the subject was so obviously inflammatory that I could not let it

slide. Jews still catch enough crap for no reason in this country that you must excuse us if we tend to jump when we hear shit like that. Would it be to much to ask for SOME sensitivity when titling stuff. You could have said Japan for whaling issues or Jamaica for selling weed or you could have titled the thread:

"China would be justified in invading U.S."

But he chose the Jews... don't worry. I know how easy it is.

[DuctapeFatwa]

20. When you clicked the link, what was the title of the article as published?

nt

[Bonobo]

22. Please consider this:

DISCUSSION BOARD RULES:
"When discussing race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, or religion, please exercise the appropriate level of sensitivity toward others and take extra care to clearly express your point of view. This will help avoid misunderstandings and undeserved accusations of bigotry."

In contrast and I believe unlike LBN, it is nowhere suggested that we title these threads the same as the article we are posting a link to. Am I incorrect?

If not, that would leave you unecessarily inflammatory and in violation of the rules, and me vindicated.

[muriel_volestrangler]

23. Where is the race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, or religion?

It's an article about countries' foreign policies.

[regnaD kciN]

64. A good point...

After all, when anyone criticizes Israel and speaks of "the Jews," they are quickly told that there's a big difference between the Israeli government and Jews worldwide (or, even, those Jews living in Israel). In fact, it's considered at least potential bigotry to confuse the terms.

However, when anyone makes the point of specifically criticizing Israel, the charges of "anti-Semitism!" are quick to arise...generally from the same people who were earlier quick to point that "Jews" doesn't equal "Israel."

[DuctapeFatwa]

24. Do you need to be vindicated?

With rare exception, I do title articles as I find them, because whenever I don't, the discussion tends to center around that as opposed to the article.

I do not consider that an article written by a Jewish member of Parliament for a UK newspaper expressing the opinion that the US should not invade other countries to be either inflammatory or insensitive.

In fact, I am in agreement with MP Kaufman on the subject.

I do not believe the US should invade other countries, bomb them, occupy or attack them in any way.

I do not believe that Israel should do it, or Chad, or Lichtenstein, or even Wales.

Are you interested in discussing MP Kaufman's views on US foreign policy?

[durutti]

37. Japan and Jamaica have not violated UNSC resolutions

Israel has. So have Turkey and Morocco.

Israel was chosen, I think, just because it's such a close U.S. ally.

And you're right that Jews in this country get crap for no reason -- but a lot less than they get in any other country, and a lot less than they have in the past.

There's another group that gets even more crap for no reason: Arabs. And people like you, who work to stigmatize even the mildest criticism of Israel, contribute to all the crap they get.

[Muddleoftheroad]

39. The UN

Hmmm, could it be that the UN is not exactly an unbiased observer and that the numerous Arab states or the numerous Muslim states or the numerous states dependent on Arab oil or the numerous states (especially in Europe) that has HUGE histories of anti-Semitism ALL might not like Israel?

Noooooooooooooo....

[durutti]

27. That's Not Isolationism

Opposition to military intervention isn't the same thing as isolationism. Isolationism would mean opposition to military intervention in addition to opposition to pretty much all international institutions (the UN, the WTO, etc.), and probably a protectionist trade policy.

[DrFunkenstein]

10. We Should Quadruple Israel's Military Aid

Dean believes the Bush administration should be giving Israel $4 billion in military aid to fight terrorism, not the $1 billion it proposed last month.

http://www.jewishsf.com/bk030418/us02.shtml

Last December, Dean told the Jerusalem Post that he unequivocally supported $8 Billion in US loan guarantees for Israel. "I believe that by providing Israel with the loan guarantees...the US will be advancing its own interest," he said. His unconditional support for the loan package, in addition to $4 Billion in outright grants, went further than even some of the most pro-Israel elements in the Bush administration, like Paul Wolfowitz, who wanted to at least include some vague restrictions like pushing Israel to curtail new settlements and accept a timetable to establish a Palestinian state.

http://www.muslimwakeup.com/mainarchive/000119.html

[Bonobo]

17. Naturally, Dean is the Grand Kebibble of the Secret Jewish Coven

The Christian blood-drinking ceremony is next week and we must hurry the preparations.

Afterwards, ooops! Is this recording??? How do I erase this thing? *&%$#!!!!

[durutti]

30. I hope you're being sarcastic.

Someone disapproves of Dean wanting to spend more of his tax dollars funding a country in violation of 19 UNSC resolutions, and you accuse him of anti-Semitism.

Now, I've seen some pro-Israel people wrongly accuse Israel's critics of anti-Semitism before, but never for something this mild. Which leads me to believe that you're either a.) making fun of this tactic or b.) a person so blindly and fervently pro-Israel that you consider all criticism of Israel anti-Semitism.

Unfortunately, I suspect the latter.

[DrFunkenstein]

52. Kebibbles And Bits

What the hell are you talking about? Dean took a trip paid entirely by AIPAC to visit Sharon, where he promptly made several outrageous promises of unconditional aid. During his visit, Dean did not meet with any Palestinian leaders or any Israeli moderates. This is not conspiracy. These are facts.

I don't buy your equation of Sharon with Israel, nor of Israel with Jews. I think you do a great disservice to your faith and your people when you portray them as an entirely homogenous group.

"By the time Dean would become president, Israel could have a different prime minister. Despite his recent election victory, Sharon’s government is not likely to last very long and new Israeli elections could take place within a couple of years. Israeli opposition leader Amram Mitzna, who could become the next prime minister, takes a far more moderate position toward the Palestinians than does Dean.

For example, Dean opposes Mitzna’s call for Israel to unconditionally return to peace talks with the Palestinians. One could therefore envision a situation where a President Dean, being even more anti-Palestinian than the Israeli government, would – instead of pushing both sides to compromise for peace – end up pressuring the Israelis to harden their position. Israeli peace activists fear that electing someone like Dean as president of the United States could end up sabotaging a renewed Middle East peace process."

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0226-04.htm

[the_real_38]

21. they don't have any oil.

they don't have any oil.

[the_real_38]

25. And another thing...

Israelis are notoriously lazy. They get the Palestinians to do all their work for them. We don't need any of that s****.

[BiggJawn]

31. Don't be so impatient! They're on PNAC's list, too...

Rummy and Wolfie will get to Israel sooner or later..gotta get those "small problems" in Iraq ireoned out first...

[mrdmk]

54. Alex Cockburn made a statement about this 11/25/03

One thing I can say about debating Israel here in the United States is it is personally dangerous. There are Jewish lobbies and there are Israeli lobbies. The Israeli lobbies do pretend to be Jewish lobbies and try to speak for the Jewish people. There is a problem with this and some Jewish groups are trying to tell Israel, “…you do not speak for us…”

Here is the link for Alex Cockburn interview on Democracy Now

http://www.democracynow.org/index.pl?issue=20031125


The website What Really Happened tends to be anti-Israel, but most of the links pertaining to the subject are from Europe and Asia.

Here is the link for What Really Happened

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/index.html


There are a number of theories why the United States is so pro Israel, and I do know for a fact that if one does criticize Israel publicly, they need to be ready for an onslaught.

[Hieronymus]

57. I agree with Mr. Cockburn.

[ShaneGR]

61. Gees, talk about a flame bate thread

A guy named Ductapefatwa talking about invading Israel. Gees.

[DuctapeFatwa]

69. I guess if that is what you are looking for...

But one thing I have noticed on this board is that a lot of people actually read articles and click links ;)

Now, that's not for everyone, mind you, and there are plenty of people who prefer not to go that route. You make the choice that's right for you.

[Isome]

65. This is horrible!

Why is it flamebait to suggest a second look at military aggression (violence) around the world?

How can Arabs be considered anti-semitic? Aren't they semites too? Abhoring the actions of desperate Palestinians isn't the same as hating Arabs, anymore than hating the actions of Israeli government isn't the same as hating Jewish people.

[Muddleoftheroad]

75. Sooner or later

People here are going to have to come to terms with the fact that anti-Semitism means anti-Jewish and has nothing to do with the Arabs except the fact that huge numbers of them embrace the concept.

[Speed8098]

76. Rationalization

1967..................

Do you know what that year signifies?

Do you believe the Israeli's are justified in building Jewish settlements on Palestinian land?

Do you think Sharon is as much of a terrorist as Arafat?

If you were forced off your land by someone with a strong military, wouldn't you retaliate by whatever means you could?

I'm sick of people calling out "Anti Semite" to anyone who criticizes the Israeli GOVERNMENT. Criticism of the government is not criticism of the people being governed.

I hate *. Does that mean I hate all white men? Does it mean I hate Americans? NO! It means I hate this facist administration.period

The same goes for the Israeli's. I have no problem with people of the jewish faith, in fact I find their religion interesting. However, I absolutely hate Sharon.

Does that make me anti-semitic?

[Muddleoftheroad]

77. Answers

Some answers:

1967 -- One of many years where Israel defeated overwhelming odds to continue to be free. It also regained the rest of its capital during that time and once again secured access to religious sites denied to Jew by Jordan since 1948.

What is Palestinian land? There is, as yet at least, no nation called Palestine. Israel captured the land from Jordan, not from the Palestinians.

No, Arafat is by far the worst of the two. Not only that, he has stolen upwards of $1 billion FROM HIS OWN people.

With your phrase, "whatever means you could," are you attempting to rationalize the deliberate murder of civilians?

Hating a government does not necessarily make you anti-Semitic. Calling for the destruction (as one poster here has) of the two nations with significant Jewish populations is also not a guarantee, but is far more suspicious.

[Speed8098]

80. "Whatever means you could"

I do not advocate the senseless bombings of Israeli civilians. I also do not advocate Sharon's occupation of Palestinian land.


Israel captured the land from Jordan, not from the Palestinians.

Are they not trying to expand the boundries that have been agreed on, by force?

How would you feel if you had to see tanks and armed soldiers 24/7 watching you go to work, or work on your home, or any of the day to day activities that you are free to do?

How would you feel if you were told what time you had to be in your house. How would you like to hear the sounds of gunfire waking you in the middle of the night?

The US has to stop supporting the actions of Sharon's government.

[Muddleoftheroad]

82. Again, Palestinian land?

Land, first and foremost, is part of a nation. There is no nation of Palestine. There will be -- IF the Palestinians decide to choose peace.

Who agreed on the boundaries you mention? The UN, not Israel.

Given that 75% of the Palestinians support terror and some large subset of those are actually involved IN terror, the guards make sense to me.

Curfews and he rest are standard tactics when dealing with such as the terrorists.

The US will NOT stop supporting Israel.

[fabius]

66. They'd kick our ass.

'nuff said.

x(

[KG]

78. heh - so amusing when posters can't be bothered to read the article

linked before spewing their gutteral accusations. :D

[bicentennial_baby]

83. Indeed

Jeez people...

[JNelson6563]

79. cause we gotta make it nice for when Jesus comes

and that'll be any day now. Yep, right around the corner.....

Julie

[Suspicious]

84. "Their removal, and replacement"

...by genuine democratic governments seeking to reconcile rather than repress, would be an indisputable benefit to humankind...

...and the antithesis of everything the U.S. has worked so hard around the globe to achieve. The U.S. has absolutely no use for genuine democratic governments - genuine democracy is completely counter to their objectives, and everything in their power (from covertly training "counterinsurgence" forces to outright terrorism) has been - and will continue to be - done to keep any such government from ever taking hold.

Israel is the perfect lieutenant.

[Muddleoftheroad]

85. Lieutenant?

Why, because it is a democracy that allows all citizens to vote?

Or because it is an ally of the U.S. and was even when the Arab world was backing the Soviet Union?

[Suspicious]

91. Democracy

entails quite a bit more than "allowing" your citizens to vote, incidentally.

But to answer your question, in short, because it is a regional enforcer and a base for U.S. power in a region where the U.S. needs to maintain control.

[Muddleoftheroad]

96. More like an ally

Allies stand by one another in times of trouble. As you may recall, the Arab world has been opposed to the U.S. for decades and lined up on the side of totalitarianism during the late Cold War. Israel was our only true ally in the region then, as now.

[TahitiNut]

100. Locking - Inflammation, I/PA topic, GDF Rules

Rules to start discussion threads in the General Discussion forum.

1. The subject line of a discussion thread must accurately reflect the actual content of the message.

2. The subject line of a discussion thread and the entire text of the message which starts the thread may not include profanity, excessive capitalization, or excessive punctuation. Inflammatory rhetoric should also be avoided.

3. If you post an article or other published content which is from a conservative source or which expresses a traditionally conservative viewpoint, you must state your opinion about the piece and/or the issues it raises.

4. If you wish to start a vanity thread (ie: a discussion thread in which the sole purpose is to share your personal opinion) you must state your opinion in a non-inflammatory manner which respects differences in opinion and facilitates actual discussion.

5. You may not start a new discussion thread in order to continue a current or recent flame war from another thread. The moderators have the authority to lock threads in order to contain flaming on a particular topic to only one thread at a time.

---

Due to continuing problems, discussion of Israeli/Palestinian issues is limited to the Israeli/Palestinian Affairs forum, and is governed by a special set of rules which are available in that forum. If a discussion is primarily about U.S. policy in Israeli/Palestinian affairs, it is still allowed in other forums. Discussion of other Middle East issues is also allowed. If a thread is on a different topic, but later goes off-topic and becomes a discussion of Israeli/Palestinian issues, the moderators may move the thread to the Foreign Affairs/National Security forum.

---

Thank you for your understanding and cooperation,
TahitiNut - DU moderator

[leesa]

101. Little reason to invade anyone ever. I understand your point, but

wouldn't it be more efficient to simply stop paying for the arms and weaponry that they use to terrorize their neighbors, and to vote for the UN sanctions against Israel's acts of genocide?