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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 01:21 PM
Original message
Flashback: Ted Kennedy on Biden-Lugar
Edited on Fri Nov-28-03 01:24 PM by Cocoa
this is from the debate in Oct. 2002.

Kennedy, and presumably from context Robert Byrd agrees, doesn't seem to see a whole lot of difference between Biden-Lugar and the version that passed.

http://www.monitor.net/monitor/0210a/iraqdebate4.html

<snip>

The test in the Gephardt-Lieberman-Warner Resolution says to defend against the continuing threat from Iraq -- that is the operative word. And in Biden-Lugar it talks about dealing with the threat of Iraq is "so grave" that force should be used. New words, "so grave." The President already said it was a grave situation.

In effect, if that was to be accepted -- the President already said it was a grave situation. It would, in effect, grant unilaterally, without any involvement in the international community, any effort whatsoever to try and bring allies into this, give the authority for the President to go ahead with war, as the President has indicated he may very well do.

more...




on edit: maybe this explains why Kennedy hasn't dropped his endorsement of the hawk Kerry in favor of the dove Dean.



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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
1. One can only wonder
Edited on Fri Nov-28-03 01:26 PM by JNelson6563
if Byrd or Levin would've felt compelled to offer their amendments if it was Biden-Lugar that hit the floor instead of Bush-Gephardt.

Julie
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. I posted this in regard to Dean
Dean said he supported the Biden-Lugar amendment, did he say anything about the Byrd and Levin amendments?

The question I think is how different is Biden-Lugar from IWR? Kennedy seems to be saying, not very different. He's basically saying what Kerry is saying now, except Kennedy said it at the time, before the Dean vs. Kerry factor, so it carries more weight.

I wonder how many antiwar people called their representatives and demanded Biden-Lugar? I wonder if they doubted that an amendment offered by Joe Biden was an antiwar amendment?
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. And I posted that in regard to differences of the bills
I am sure the folks against the war who called their legislators did NOT insist on the B-L bill. I was one of those callers and I sure didn't. In fact, remarkably, I called Senators from all over the country (mostly Dems) and was told repeatedly that calls were coming in 10-1 or 20-1 against the war, not for a change of bills.

There is no doubt that if B-L had passed and if Congress just disregarded the authority B-L provided them, we'd be where we are today in Iraq and Dean wouldn't have a whole lot of difference to point to. He could assert that he wouldn't have given the ok when the boy king came back for permission but still, he'd've backed the bill that got us to war and he'd be no better off than the other candidates. Maybe if he'd made a great deal of noise when the bill came back for final go-ahead to kick off our Iraqi adventure but even then, doubtful IMO.

But that's not how it played out. The IWR as we know it is what got passed (and correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't that during the Dem majority???) and those who supported it took a gamble. It looked like a fail-safe gamble too.

So, we have the Dem Senators place their bets ("yes" votes) and keep their fingers crossed as the war commenced. You can bet there was little doubt within any of their camps during those early days. TVs everywhere showing glamorous infomercials of all our cool war toys. The incredibly exciting Jessica Lynch rescue. Cheerleading everywhere 24/7, it was just so exciting!! So fabulous to be an American!!! Oh yes, I am sure it was thought, during those early days of rapturous wargasmic experience those crazy anti-war yahoos would eventually have to come around or they'd become completely marginalized. They'd gradually fade away in light of our swift victory and Iraqis throwing flowers......

That lunatic Howard Dean and all his anti-war supporters will not only remain a tiny minority, why with our great achievements in Iraq being broadcast daily in the best of lights, ha! Dean and his little movement will soon be forgotten while the war supporting candidates would be basking in the glory of having supported the boy king's great military vicitories.

Ah yes, the world of what-could-have-been....

Julie

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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. even now, the yes votes may have been the right thing
For me, the way the war happened, or even that it happened, are not because of the IWR. They're because of Bush's decisions after the IWR.

Remember that he still felt he had to lie in the SOTU, and Powell had to present the bogus evidence at the UN, and all the other Bushies had to sell their war, months after the vote.

This is Bush's war, not Congress's. A no from Congress imo would just mean that Congress's opposition would be blamed for everything bad in the war. As it is, this is Bush's war.
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Feanorcurufinwe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. "Cheerleading everywhere 24/7"
Gee, I hope you had fun with your revisionist history fantasies.


Kerry: "What we need now is not just a regime change in Saddam Hussein and Iraq, but we need a regime change in the United States"
Kerry Says US Needs Its Own Regime Change

Kerry: "This is a democracy, we could be at war a year from now. Would we put the election on hold?" Kerry Stands By Bush Criticism

Dean: "It's hard to criticize the president when you've got troops in the field" Dean to ease up on Bush



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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. I meant the media
who are still doing their best.

Julie
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
2. Cocoa...the press let Dean use IWR as a wedge issue for a year now.
And never bothered examining his actual position on Biden-Lugar or contrast it with the others.

Something is definitely wrong here. A whole year of never examining a candidate on the wedge issue he uses to gain support?
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. deep insecurity in Dean among his supporters
I was against the war, and I support Gephardt.

Kennedy was against the war, and he suppports Kerry.

Why do some Dean supporters have to twist reality in order to cling to their view of Dean as an absolute opponent of the war, which he obviously is not?

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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. The medium is the message.
It doesn't matter what the policy is. What matters is how the person saying the words makes you feel.

If he's making you feel angry, that's all that counts.
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Uzybone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 02:57 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. Nothing is wrong
wait till Dean wins the nomination and Iraq is still a mess. I bet you the press will roll out his support of Biden-Luger then and excoriate him with it.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. 87 billion dollars will buy Bush a veneer of success in Iraq.
They'll have had an election in Iraq AFTER our nominee is selected.

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Terwilliger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
15. A year?
When did Dean first come out criticizing the pink tutus? I thought it was February.

And if you're so sure that Dean is all about wedging and grandstanding on this issue, why haven't people like Kerry counter-attacked?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Dean started attacking Jan. 23. But, I was explaining
Edited on Fri Nov-28-03 04:16 PM by blm
the Biden-Lugar bill and its similarities since IWR and at that time Dean was acting as if the vote was wrong, which was fine, but then ramped it up as an attack issue in Jan.
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Terwilliger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. but blm
all you're doing is harping on Dean's political strategy

Did you answer in NSMA's thread? What are you going to do when Dean becomes the nominee? Put all this behind you?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. Dean is being set up to bring down the entire Dem party.
I will keep fighting to make sure that doesn't happen.
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Duder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 02:07 PM
Response to Original message
6. More flashbacks...
Bush to Congress: Don't tie my hands
Tuesday, October 1, 2002
Bush: "Why would Congress want to weaken that resolution?"
http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/10/01/bush.iraq/

ACLU Applauds Constitutional Checks in New Iraq Compromise
Wednesday, October 2, 2002

WASHINGTON - The American Civil Liberties Union today said that a bipartisan Senate compromise on a resolution allowing the President to use force to oust Saddam Hussein is far more faithful to the Constitution than the blank check resolution being lobbied for by the White House.

"Thankfully, this compromise embodies the lessons learned from the Gulf of Tonkin incident," said Timothy Edgar, an ACLU Legislative Counsel. "Granting the President a blank check to engage in overseas adventures is a recipe for human tragedy. This compromise resolution acknowledges those lessons."

In its letter to the Senate, the ACLU reiterated that it is neutral on whether the United States should go to war. However, it told the Senate that it remains firm in its conviction that the Constitutional obligations on Congress to make decisions about war need to be respected, especially with foreign policy questions of this magnitude.

The new resolution, negotiated by Senate Foreign Relations Chairman Joseph Biden (D-DE) and Former Chairman Richard Lugar (R-IN), eliminates most of the similarities between the resolution the President wanted and the disastrous Gulf of Tonkin resolution, which led to a decade-long morass in which tens of thousands of Americans lost their lives.

http://archive.aclu.org/news/2002/n100202a.html

Gephardt Caves

October 3, 2002

HOUSE MINORITY Leader Richard A. Gephardt acceded to the drums of war on Wednesday, agreeing to an overly broad resolution authorizing President George W. Bush to attack Iraq. In the process, Mr. Gephardt undermined efforts in the Senate to limit the war authority to disarmament, rather than regime change.

Mr. Gephardt -- who was joined by other centrist Democrats, including Sen. Joseph I. Lieberman of Connecticut -- claimed to have won important concessions from Mr. Bush, and waxed on about how "this should not be about politics." But the concessions he won were minor, and his actions appear to be driven by the political imperatives of the coming election.

The compromise language that Mr. Gephardt agreed to would authorize Mr. Bush to wage war for violation of any of the past United Nations' resolutions that Saddam Hussein is violating. Those resolutions include matters that do not justify war -- such as the requirement that Saddam pay reparations to Kuwait, and that he treat his citizens more democratically. A far better proposal by Sens. Richard Lugar, R-Ind., and Joseph R. Biden Jr., D-Del., would limit the war authorization to enforcement of the resolutions requiring the elimination of weapons of mass destruction.

http://www.commondreams.org/views02/1003-01.htm
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mandyky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
8. "the dove Dean"?? Dean is NO dove,
and his supporters know that. He supported Iraq 1 and Afghanistan. He has merely made the point that Iraq 2 was the wrong war at the wrong time. Much like Bob Graham, I think Dean saw Iraq 2 as a diversion from catching Osama. He does not want to withdraw immediately from Iraq either - he knows we HAVE to succeed in "democratizing" Iraq, since we're already there.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. He accused the others of giving Bush a "blank check" when his position
was never that much different. Deceptive and cynical in using IWR as a wedge issue.

Doubly wrong was the press who never bothered to contrast the actual positions while ALLOWING Dean to use IWR to attack the other candidates.
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Clark has articulated a Graham-like position
If Dean has done so, I haven't heard it. If you're just projecting it onto Dean, that's ok too.
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #11
27. A timeline of Dean statements on Iraq
Vermont Gov. Howard Dean said if Saddam is shown to have atomic or biological weapons, the United States must act. But he also said Bush must first convince Americans that Iraq has these weapons and then prepare them for the likelihood American troops would be there for a decade.

August 12, 2002

President Bush would have to meet two criteria before he ordered a U.S. invasion, Dean said Sunday during a presidential campaign trip to New Hampshire.

"The first is, he has to show the American people, as President Kennedy did in the Cuban missile crisis, that there’s evidence (Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein) has either atomic or biological weapons and can deliver them," Dean said. "So far he has not made that case. So where’s the threat? We need to see that evidence."

...

"We also have to be honest about how long we’re going to be there. We’re going to have American troops on the ground in Iraq for 10 years," Dean said. "If we’re not honest about that, then I don’t think the president ought to have the right to make the decision to go into a war with Iraq because the American people ought to be told ahead of time what that’s going to mean to us."

August 21, 2002

“He needs to first make the case and he has not done that,” Dean said. “He has never come out and said Saddam (Hussein) has the atomic bomb and we need to deal with him.”

...

"He needs to be forthright with the American people about what this means," said Dean. "If we go into Iraq, we’re going to have to stay for probably five or 10 years."

He warned that simply deposing Hussein is not enough. The United States would have to plant the seeds of democracy in a country with little such tradition, he said.

"Americans are going to have to die and a lot of money is going to be spent," said Dean.

...

"The American people need to be told the truth up front," said Dean. "It’s not going to Afghanistan and it’s not going to be the last Iraqi war. If we don’t stay there and remold the country into a democratic country, which will take 10 years, then it’s stupid to go in there."

September 04, 2002


"There's substantial doubt that is as much of a threat as the Bush administration claims." Though Americans might initially rally to military action, 'that support will be very short-lived once American kids start coming home in boxes,' Mr. Dean warned Wednesday as he campaigned in Iowa.

September 06, 2002

"The president has to do two things to get the country's long-term support for the invasion of Iraq," Dean said in a telephone interview. "He has done neither yet." Dean said President Bush needs to make the case that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, such as atomic or biological weapons, and the means to use them. Bush also needs to explain to the American public that a war against Iraq is going to require a long commitment.

September 18, 2002

Dean, in an interview Tuesday, said flatly that he did not believe Bush has made "the case that we need to invade Iraq." Dean said he could support military action, even outside the U.N., if Bush could "establish with reasonable credibility" that Hussein had the capacity to deliver either nuclear or biological weapons against the United States and its allies. But he said that the president, to this point, hadn't passed that test.

"He is asking American families to sacrifice their children, and he's got to have something more than, 'This is an evil man,' " Dean said. "There are a lot of evil people running countries around the world; we don't bomb every one of them. We don't ask our children to die over every one of them."

September 18, 2002

"I think most of the focus on Iraq is because of their terrible record on the economy and health care," said Dean, a Democrat. "I think there’s a healthy amount of domestic politics involved."

September 25, 2002

"There’s no question that Saddam Hussein is a threat to the United States and to our allies," Dean said on CBS’ "Face The Nation" via satellite from Austin, Texas.

"The question is, ‘Is he an immediate threat?’ The president has not yet made the case for that. I think it may very well be, particularly with the news that we’ve had over the weekend, that we are going to end up in Iraq. But I think it’s got to be gone about in a very different way."

...

While Dean said the United States must defend itself unilaterally if necessary, he emphasized that now is the time to be getting the cooperation of the United Nations Security Council and U.S. allies.

"It’s not good for the future of the foreign policy of this country to be the big bully on the block and tell people we’re going to do what we want to do," he said.

September 29, 2002

Kerry said he expects Democrats will overwhelmingly approve the pending Senate resolution authorizing the use of force in Iraq. "I think there will be a significantly more unified front than in the last Gulf War," he said.

But Dean said there are significant differences among Democrats on the issue, and suggested a political motive for presidential moves toward war.

"What’s the imminent danger?" he asked. "The president has never said, and all the intelligence reports say there isn’t any. It’s hard to escape the conclusion that some of this has to do with the midterm elections."
October 6, 2002


"The president approached it in exactly the wrong way. The first thing I would have done is gone to United Nations Security Council and gone to our allies and say, "Look, the UN resolutions are being violated. If you don't enforce them, then we will have to." The first choice, however, is to enforce them through the UN and with our allies. That's the underlying approach."

October 31st, 2002

"I would like to at least have the president, who I think is an honest person, look us in the eye and say, 'We have evidence, here it is.' We've never heard the president of the United States say that. There is nothing but innuendo, and I want to see some hard facts."

December 22, 2002


Appearing on the CBS news show "Face the Nation," Dean, who is running for president, said President Bush had not made the case to go to war against Saddam Hussein’s Iraq.

...

"I do not believe the president has made the case to send American kids and grandkids to die in Iraq. And until he does that, I don't think we ought to be going into Iraq. So I think the two situations are fairly different. Iraq does not possess nuclear weapons. The best intelligence that anybody can find, certainly that I can find, is that it will be at least a year before he does so and maybe five years."

January 05, 2003

"I personally believe hasn’t made his case"

January 10, 2003

Dean, meanwhile, said he would not have voted for the Iraq resolution, though he is not against the use of military force if necessary.

"The problem with the resolution on Iraq is the president has never made his case," he said.

January 23, 2003

"These are the young men and women who will be asked to risk their lives for freedom. We certainly deserve more information before sending them off to war."

January 29, 2003

"The secretary of state made a compelling case for what the American people already know: Saddam Hussein is a deceitful tyrant who must be disarmed," said Dean. "But I heard little today that leads me to believe that there is an imminent threat warranting unilateral military action by the United States against Iraq."

...

"I am not in the no-way camp. Definitely not. I think Saddam must be disarmed. The problem I have is that I have a deep reluctance to attack a country unilaterally without a pretty high standard of proof," he said. "I am hoping to resolve this peacefully.

"To say you are in the not-yet camp implies that war is inevitable and I don’t think that is true," he added.

Dean did say he is not completely opposed to a U.S. attack on Iraq: "There are circumstances under which I would attack Iraq unilaterally, but we are very far from those circumstances."

February 5, 2003

"Terrorism around the globe is a far greater danger to the United States than Iraq. We are pursuing the wrong war,"

February 5, 2003

"We ought not to resort to unilateral action unless there is an imminent threat to the United States. And the secretary of State and the president have not made a case that such an imminent threat exists.''

February 12, 2003

In an interview, Dean said that he opposed the congressional resolution and remained unconvinced that Hussein was an imminent threat to the United States. He said he would not support sending U.S. troops to Iraq unless the United Nations specifically approved the move and backed it with action of its own.

"They have to send troops," he said.
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/nation/5236485.htm">Feb. 22, 2003

"Well, I think that the United Nations makes it clear that Saddam has to disarm, and if he doesn't, then they will disarm him militarily. I have no problem with supporting a United Nations attack on Iraq, but I want it to be supported by the United Nations. That's a well-constituted body. The problem with the so-called multilateral attack that the president is talking about is an awful lot of countries, for example, like Turkey-- we gave them $20 billion in loan guarantees and outright grants in order to secure their permission to attack. I don't think that's the right way to put together a coalition. I think this really has to be a world matter. Saddam must be disarmed. He is as evil as everybody says he is. But we need to respect the legal rights that are involved here. Unless they are an imminent threat, we do not have a legal right, in my view, to attack them.

February 27, 2003

Former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean said Friday he remains unimpressed with President Bush’s argument for attacking Iraq and he called for a standdown of military force.

"We ought not to go attack unilaterally or preemptively," Dean said. "We have a right to strike against those countries that pose an imminent threat and I don’t think Saddam possess an imminent threat."

March 8, 2003

The key is there has to be an imminent danger in order to go into Iraq.
March 9, 2003

MR. RUSSERT: In an interview with Roll Call, the Capitol Hill newspaper, in January, you said this, "In a meeting...with 'Roll Call' editors and reporters, Dean said this if President Bush presented evidence that Saddam Hussein possesses weapons of mass destruction, 'Then I'd go back to the U.N. and get a new resolution that either disarms in 60 days or we go in.'"

Isn't that exactly what the president did in November? He went to the United Nations, made the case, and it's now been 120 days and Saddam Hussein is still not cooperating.

MR. DEAN: See, I don't think the president has made the case. I think what the president has made a reasonable case for is that Saddam is moving weapons around in terms of biologicals and chemicals, perhaps. He has not made a case for the three things that I think require or enable us to invade unilaterally or pre-emptively or preventively, as we are now calling it. He has not made the case for Saddam possessing nuclear weapons. He has not made the case that he has any kind of a credible nuclear program. And he has not made the case that Saddam is giving weapons of mass destruction to the terrorists. If he were doing any of those things, I think we would have a right to defend ourselves, and we should go in. That case has not been made, either by the president or Secretary Powell, and I don't think that we ought to go in, if we don't want to use the word unilaterally, than preventively or pre-emptively.

...

MR. RUSSERT: If he hadn't disarmed within a year, would that be too long?

MR. DEAN: Well, again, Tim, I prefer very strongly that the United Nations make this decision about disarming Saddam. I said to Mort Kondracke, I think we can get a resolution, and I hope we will get a resolution that says 60 days, but it's the United Nations resolution that's important here.

March 9, 2003

What I want to know is what in the world so many Democrats are doing supporting the President’s unilateral intervention in Iraq?

March 15th, 2003

"I went to Parris Island so I could look into the faces of the kids who will be sent to Iraq," Dean told a cheering lunchtime crowd in Concord, N.H. "We should always support our kids, but I do not support this president's policies and I will continue to say so."

March 18, 2003

"Anti-war Presidential candidate Howard Dean said he will not silence his criticism of President Bush's Iraq policy now that the war has begun, but he will stop the 'red meat' partisan attacks.

"No matter how strongly I oppose the President's policy, I will continue to support American troops who are now in harms way," said Dean

March 20, 2003

While Dean said he was staunchly opposed to the war and planned to continue criticizing it, he also said the United States should keep fighting, putting him at odds with other antiwar activists who have been calling for an immediate cease-fire.

''We're in. We don't have any choice now. But this is the wrong choice,'' Dean said. ''There will be some who think we should get out immediately, but I don't think that's an easy position to take.''

March 23, 2003

"I’m certainly not going to change my message," Dean said. "I don’t see how I could. I think the war is a problem, in terms of our long-term foreign policy."

"What I’ve said is, I’m not going to criticize the president in a partisan way or in a personal way during the war," said Dean. "But for me to change my policy on that now wouldn’t make any sense. I haven’t altered my view about this."

March 24, 2003

On day one of a Dean Presidency, I will reverse this attitude. I will tear up the Bush Doctrine. And I will steer us back into the company of the community of nations where we will exercise moral leadership once again.

April 17th, 2003
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. They why have inspections??
If there were no WMD in Iraq, why not just lift sanctions and be done with it?

Why did he always include in every single one of these interviews or speeches the fact that Saddam MUST cooperate with inspections and MUST be disarmed? Why did he always support miltary action to do that? How can a person say there's NO case and then turn around and support actions that indicate there IS a case?

The guy is a total flake. We are so fucking doomed if this guy gets the nomination. It'll just be an embarrassment to watch.

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Terwilliger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
14. why do you think Dean is a dove?
what kind of close-minded simplistic thinking says that Dean opposed the last Iraq war, i.e., to wit, in lieu...he must be a "dove"

If Kennedy supports Kerry over Dean then it has nothing to do with this particular situation. Kennedy would seem to have rejected Biden-Lugar and the rest, which Kerry did not.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
17. Why did Kerry ignored Kennedy's warnings and voted for war?
Edited on Fri Nov-28-03 04:08 PM by IndianaGreen
Perhaps it is that Kerry gambled that the war would be over soon, and Bush would be very popular about toppling Saddam (the singing and dancing in the streets stuff), and that the economy would be the overriding issue in 2004.

Kerry chose to forget the lessons of Tonkin Gulf, and wanted us to believe him when he said that he believed Bush when Bush said that he would consult Congress rather than rush to war.

Only imperialist powers assume to speak for the entire world, and only a deluded nation would think of itself as the Leader of the Free World.

A free world, by definition, needs no leader, it relies instead on collective action.

More on what Kennedy said, that Kerry ignored:

I intend to oppose the Lieberman-Warner resolution authorizing the use of force against Iraq. America should not go to war against Iraq unless and until all other reasonable alternatives are exhausted.

<snip>

I am concerned that going to war against Iraq before other means are tried will jeopardize the war against terrorism. One year into the battle against al-Qaida, the administration is shifting focus, resources, and energy to Iraq. The change in priority is coming before we have eliminated the threat from al-Qaida, before we know whether Osama bin Laden is dead or alive, and before we know whether the fragile post-Taliban government in Afghanistan will succeed.

<snip>

There is clearly a threat from Iraq, and there is clearly a danger, but the administration has not made a convincing case that we face such an imminent threat to our national security that a unilateral, pre- emptive American strike and an immediate war are necessary. Nor has the administration laid out the cost in blood and treasure of this operation.

With all the talk of war, the administration has not explicitly acknowledged, let alone explained to the American people, the immense post-war commitment that will be required to create a stable Iraq.

<snip>

In a September 10 article, General Clark wrote: "Unilateral U.S. action today would disrupt the war against al-Qaida."

We ignore such wisdom and advice from many of the best of our military at our own peril.


http://www.monitor.net/monitor/0210a/iraqdebate4.html
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Kerry didn't ignore it and had much the same feelings
however they were promised the action would be multilateral and a coalition would be built.

You blame Kerry for Bush not keeping to the resolution in its spirit or its guidelines.
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Terwilliger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. I blame Kerry for not knowing what everybody else and their mother knew
Bush was a liar who was creating the situation to fit his political strategy.

If you want to claim that Kerry trusted Bush, then I have a serious problem with Kerry's judgement.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #21
29. Why have inspections????
If everybody knew there were no weapons, why was every single person calling for inspections. I only quote Dennis here to make the point.

No goddamn body KNEW a fucking thing. If the people here at DU think they KNEW more than Congressmen, world leaders, heads of IAEA and UNSCOM, then they better get up off their butts and go take charge because they KNEW more than anybody else.

"It must involve the United Nations. Inspections for weapons of mass destruction should begin immediately. Inspectors must have free and unfettered access to all sites.

The time has come for us to end the sanctions against Iraq, because those sanctions punish the people of Iraq for having Saddam Hussein as their leader. These sanctions have been instrumental in causing the deaths of hundreds of thousands of children. Emergency relief should be expedited. Free trade, except in arms, must be permitted."

http://www.progressive.org/nov02/kuc1102.html
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. And when the invasion began, why didn't Kerry condemn it?
I fear that Kerry wanted to have it both ways, and ended up pleasing no one.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Then you have no clue what happened in 98?
Kerry's position of wanting Saddam dealt with so sanctions could be lifted on Iraq has been the same for years. He doesn't agree with the way Bush went about doing it. He was very clear in his criticism of Bush going in when he didn't exhaust diplomatic measures. You purposely block your mind from accepting that fact.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. He did
Read please, dear god, read. I don't know how the man could be more concise or consistent.

Here's his remarks Sept 2002.

http://www.cfr.org/publication.php?id=5596.xml

Here's his remarks March 18, 2003

http://www.cfr.org/publication.php?id=5722.xml
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-28-03 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. Why did Kucinich want inspections?
If Saddam had no WMD and wasn't suspected of having them, why have inspections? Why did Dean want inspections and support a war if Saddam didn't comply?

Why is Kerry beat up because he supported the exact same process as Dean and Kucinich, except he had to make the vote in order to get the inspectors in. He had to make the hard, unpopular choice, and he did it. That's COURAGE.

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