Bush can now claim that he has been in combat zone, hope Dean visits Iraq

[phirili]

soon. A Dean visit to Afgan. or Iraq or both could negate his 'draft dodger' label.



The trip highlighted the continuing dangers of Iraq. Mr. Bush's trip was conducted under extraordinary security, even for a president who routinely travels under some of the tightest security in the world. Air traffic controllers in Baghdad did not know the plane heading for the runway was Air Force One, and it then landed without its lights in darkness, but for a sliver of moon.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/28/international/28CND-PREX.html?hp

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

1. You do realize

that 7 of the 9 candidates haven't served in the military, right?

[phirili]

2. How many walked with a medical to avoid the draft, then went skiing

[ryharrin]

3. In other words, how many showed the proper documentation at

their physical, were rejected, then went on with their lives?

[dsc]

4. Try Kucinich

While he didn't ski he rode motorcycles, walked long distances, and ran a city all with a heart condition that kept him out of service.

[phirili]

5. Kucinich and Dean so far; any more

[IndianaGreen]

6. Who voted to go to war?

I served, how about you?

[jsw_81]

16. Kucinich

He not only ran a city, but he actually ran it into the ground. That's something the Kucinich supporters tend to overlook.

[quaker bill]

11. Many, and if not skiing, then elsewhere

Many people did whatever they could to avoid service in this miserable war. I knew dozens personally.

[liberalnurse]

15. Get off it for Christ sake.

He was 18 years old, and the military failed him.....He did not do anything underhanded. You insinuate that he has bought his way out or was a runaway draft dogger.

He then proceeded to serve mankind as a physician then for 12 years, served his America as governor. What have you done? Can you beat that?

[pruner]

7. this thread marks the height of stupidity at DU

congrats.

[phirili]

8. Pruner do you think Dean should visit the troops?

[pruner]

12. if he did, you'd call it a photo op

your original post contended that visiting Iraq would dispel any notion that Dean is a draft-dodger, and that's utterly ridiculous… the two issues are totally unrelated.

the only candidates I think should consider visiting the troops are Gephardt, Kerry, Lieberman, and Edwards… and only so they could apologize for sending the troops there in the first place.

[phirili]

20. dispel = negate in pruner's world

[pruner]

21. whatever…

[liberalnurse]

17. There are a few flamers here

and that can stain our credibility at times. I think their motive is not to discuss but to keep good DU'ers away. Weve lost a lot in tha past 3 months.

[phirili]

26. I for one nearly stopped posting; after the Deannuts cult attack on any

criticism of Dean. But my military training didn't allow me to ski away from reality (never was in the military - just wanted to state that).

You guys have a right to defend Dean, but how I wish you'll be more objective, concede a couple points. Dean has a lot of good going for him, but he's not perfect.

[Hep]

27. I'll concede a valid point

make one.

[TLM]

34. Yeah really what valid points... we got a guy here who said...

"But my military training didn't allow me to ski away from reality (never was in the military - just wanted to state that)."


Oh so you just lied about being miltiary in order to take a shot at Dean.

[phirili]

35. Dean supported unilateral against Iraq by supporting Biden/Lugar

Ted Kennedy on Biden-Lugar resolution:
In effect, if that was to be accepted (BL)-- the President already said it was a grave situation. It would, in effect, grant unilaterally, without any involvement in the international community, any effort whatsoever to try and bring allies into this, give the authority for the President to go ahead with war, as the President has indicated he may very well do.

See link:

http://www.monitor.net/monitor/0210a/iraqdebate4.html

[Hep]

37. how about a link

that actually includes Dean?

[phirili]

44. Includes Dean in what?

[babzilla]

40. speaking of objective

please watch Dean meeting with the marines about to go to war and report back. Forward to 21:00 minutes and let us know what you think.

http://www.c-span.org/Search/basic.asp?ResultStart=1&ResultCount=10&BasicQueryText=howard+Dean+south+carolina

[Scott Lee]

53. Pot, meet kettle!

Jesus Christ, phirili, some nerve of you - since you devote 99% of your posts to sniffing out anything possibly negative on Dean that you can scrounge up.

Amazing! Say, is it your shift at 7pm, or is that blms?

[phirili]

55. I admire blm,can't say about you. You're right I try to keep th Dean

acolytes honest

[babzilla]

9. Bush can now also claim he thought it was too risky

he said it all along you know.

Mr. Bush was asked by reporters if there was any point during the trip's planning when he thought it was too risky and that he should not go. He had a ready reply.

"Yeah, all along," he said. "I mean, I was the biggest skeptic of all."

If only all of the democratic candidates would sneak into Baghdad International, that would show Rove what for eh? :crazy:
Yeah, hopefully Dean will risk it too, that draft-dodger image is really becoming an albatross around his neck.

Mr. Bush said the idea for the trip first came up in mid-October, when his chief of staff, Andrew H. Card Jr., suggested it to him.

"Andy said, 'Would you be interested in going to Baghdad?' " Mr. Bush told reporters. "I said I don't want to go if it puts anybody in harm's way. I said it's very essential that I fully understand all aspects of the trip, starting with whether or not we could get in and out safely, whether or not my presence there would in any way cause an enemy to react and therefore jeopardize somebody else's life."

Mr. Bush said he signed off on the nearly complete plans on Tuesday, and gave the final approval for his trip on Wednesday morning from Crawford in a conference call with Vice President Dick Cheney, Ms. Rice and Mr. Card.

In fact all of the democratic candidates would be wise to take a tip from Andy Card, what a great idea.

Kucinich could negate his "heart-murmering pacifist" image.

Gephardt & Lieberman could negate their Rose Garden pandering images.

Kerry & Clark could negate their reluctant warrior images.


Here's an idea, why don't we just move the democratic convention to Baghdad instead of Boston. The entire democratic party could negate the "weak on national security image".

You should send a memo to McAuliffe.

[phirili]

10. babzilla; Do you think Dean should visit the troops

[IndianaGreen]

13. And put the troops at risk in order to protect a Presidential candidate?

Are you even aware of what you are asking the troops to do?

Of course, not.

[liberalnurse]

19. Answer the mans question......

Are you a "question dodger" here at DU? IG asks a fine question, I'll repeat it.....


Did you serve in the military and in the war?

[babzilla]

29. I enjoyed when he did last February

Check it out, He visited the marine training camp in Parris Island N.C.

http://www.c-span.org/Search/basic.asp?ResultStart=1&ResultCount=10&BasicQueryText=howard+Dean+south+carolina

On the second link forward to 21:00 for the troop visit. The first part of it is a great interaction with a gay rights advocacy group from Charleston.

Should he visit troops in Iraq or Afghanistan? Probably not until he is commander-in-chief, I'm sure the military has better things to do than to use vital resources to secure a "combat zone" for non-combatants.

[phirili]

31. Surely the leading candidate of the Democratic party should get a close up

of his troops in the combat zone.

[babzilla]

36. So you watched it

and you enjoyed Dean's close-up look at the marine's boot camp?

Or, are you saying that it doesn't count because it isn't in the "combat zone"?

Surely, the leading candidate of the Democratic party should be dropped onto the frontline of the war, or at least visit Baghdad International for a couple of hours to negate the meme that Democrats are weak on "the war on terrorism".

Why not have a season of Survivor in Baghdad to determine the democratic candidate?

How's that McAuliffe memo coming along?

[jsw_81]

14. Dean in Iraq

I thought about that yesterday, but concluded that it wouldn't be appropriate. He should follow Eisenhower's example and wait until he's President-elect to visit the troops. But hopefully there won't be any American troops stationed in Iraq next year (I can dream, can't I?).

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

18. What draft dodger label?

The one you're trying to hang around his neck? Or the imaginary one?

Another thing, it would be the height of presumption for Dean to visit the troops in Baghdad. He holds no official office, no votes have been cast, and it would be a meaningless gesture. If he becomes President-elect, it's another story.

I highly recommend that Lieberman, Kerry, Edwards and Gephardt go to Iraq to see just what it is that they have helped wrought (not to show some meaningless machismo.)

Lastly, I second babzilla's suggestion. If we're to use your reasoning, why don't we just move the Democratic Convention to Baghdad and show America just how well we can wrap ourselves in the flag. Better yet, why don't we make invading countries a central plank of the Democratic Party. That'll show everybody!

[liberalnurse]

22. Oh, the poster just hit and ran......

Must be a real dodger.

[phirili]

23. I agree he's not a 100% draft dodger as he had a "medical"

[Hep]

24. So explain the "label"

n/t

[phirili]

32. What's to explain? From bad back complaint to the ski slopes?

[Hep]

39. Yeah?

He had a condition which kept him from combat but not from skiing. So?

Are you under the impression that skiing is like being a footsoldier in Vietnam?

[phirili]

43. Guys in far worse physical condition served in Vietnam

[Hep]

47. After being deferred?

n/t

[phirili]

50. Not after they deferred, but before they were killed.

[liberalnurse]

25. Did you serve in the military and/or the war?.

Answer the question or are you a dodger here at DU?

[phirili]

30. Never served

[babzilla]

48. phirili can now claim he did serve in a combat zone

No such thing as an atheist in a foxhole, and all that.
Kudos to you and your mission creep.

[phirili]

52. Once U vote Democrat. I still love ya

[babzilla]

58. so what did you think of the video?

I really don't care how you feel about me. I want to know what you think about Dean's visit to the marines training camp since you are so concerned about the Democratic nominee.

http://www.c-span.org/Search/basic.asp?ResultStart=1&ResultCount=10&BasicQueryText=howard+Dean+south+carolina

See Campaign stops in South Carolina with Former Governor Howard Dean (D-VT). Forward to 21:00 minutes for Dean's visit with the troops preparing for a bullshit war.

[phirili]

59. Was the video done in the war zone?

[babzilla]

63. watch it

and decide for yourself what type of "zone" it is.

You seem to be interested in Dean's interaction with the troops, here is your chance, go ahead and look. You have nothing to be afraid of.

[phirili]

65. Right you are. Post a transcript here.

[babzilla]

68. I posted a link to the video, there is no transcript

what is the problem?

See Campaign stops in South Carolina with Former Governor Howard Dean (D-VT). Forward to 21:00 minutes for Dean's visit with the troops preparing for a bullshit war.

http://www.c-span.org/Search/basic.asp?ResultStart=1&ResultCount=10&BasicQueryText=howard+Dean+south+carolina


thx

[phirili]

72. I've put it in my link file. It may come in handy. Thanks.

[babzilla]

77. did you watch it?

What did you think about it?

Don't squirrel the link away for a future time.

I would think it would come in handy right now while you're fretting about Dean and his interactions with the military.

Do not hesitate, this is your chance to observe Dean with Marines.

http://www.c-span.org/Search/basic.asp?ResultStart=1&ResultCount=10&BasicQueryText=howard+Dean+south+carolina

edited to provide link once again

[phirili]

83. I want to watch him speak to the marines in the war zone.

[babzilla]

87. I'm sure you do

until that happens you can watch the next best thing here, go to the second link and forward to minute 21:00.

Go ahead I dare ya, think of it as a reconnaissance mission.

http://www.c-span.org/Search/basic.asp?ResultStart=1&ResultCount=10&BasicQueryText=howard+Dean+south+carolina

[oneighty]

28. The war is over, Mission Accomplished

What combat zone you speaking of? What service were you in? When or where? Navy here.

Nice number of posts!

180

[ima_sinnic]

33. B*shit "has been in the combat zone"?

"Mr. Bush's trip was conducted under extraordinary security, even for a president . . ."--this trip was just an extension of his already cushy, pampered, high-above-the-masses lifestyle. It could be said he "risked his life" for his photo-op, but I think the risk was less than that of an ordinary passenger on a regular airline. Then he gave a speech to some hand-selected officers in a highly protected secretly located airplane hangar, passed out a little turkey, and left. Big whoop. Just the typical MO of a "don." What in *&#^% does this have to do with Dean's imaginary "draft dodging"?

And what would a trip there by Dean have to do with it????? :wtf:

You don't think it would be interpreted as an opportunistic exploitation of the suffering troops--exactly what Bushit is guilty of?

Dean creates his own venues and backdrops--APPROPRIATE and EFFECTIVE ones--he doesn't need to take any ideas from BushCo except to see what NOT to do. Dean's ideas in the long run will end up showing Bush to be the real turkey.

[phirili]

57. Bush is Texan, maybe a cowardly one, but I think he has a trooper

mentality.

Everything every ccandidate or the President does will have some political merit. That's not rocket science.

[ima_sinnic]

38. I'm starting to get a funny feeling about posters who hammer

the "draft dodger" thing.

I mean, is there any true DUer who harbors ill feelings toward anyone who got out of Nixon's evil war by whatever means he could? Anyone who is truly progressive who doesn't understand the gestalt of the Vietnam era and how resisting the draft was a GOOD thing??

A medical deferment is not a "dodge." People are refused for military service because of flat feet, ferchrissake. No yellow-belly chickenhawk pustulating Repuke scumball is going to be able to make a case of "draft dodging" against Dean when their own cockroach hero was AWOL for a year and their main cheerleader was refused because of a pimple on his butt.

Keep harping on "draft dodging" because Dean will throw it back in your face in some way that will work to his advantage.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

42. I Agree With Most Of What You Say But That War Had Many Fathers

Besides Nixon....

Truman

Ike

JFK

LBJ

and

RMN

[phirili]

45. Bush actually served in the military

[phirili]

46. Bush could have produced a medical for his brain condition

[DemocratSinceBirth]

49. I'm Not Knocking The Guard

especially now when we have a volunteer armed forces and they are very likely to see combat....


But the 60's and 70's were a different time and folks knew that getting in the Guard was a good way to avoid combat in Nam....


I believe they called the Unit Bush served in the Champagne Unit cuz it was full of the children of the Texas elite... On a non-partisan note I believe Lloyd Bentsen's son was in that unit also....


You should read about it... It's a hoot...

[phirili]

51. Good point. But serving, gives Bush street credentials with the Troops

While earning a deferrment on a "suspect back" that works well in Aspen does not.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

54. Dean Was No Different Than Alot Of Men Of His Age Who Successfully

Gamed The System....

I'm not a big fan of his but it's not for his lack of military service...


Heck, Grover Cleveland paid someone to take his place during the Civil War and I believe the poor guy was killed and he became pres....

He also fathered an out of wedlock child too...


Back to the Guard....It's different in a volunteer army... You just might get your ass in combat....

I think in Nam something like 95% of Guardsmen never saw combat....

Also, Bush checked "no" on his Guard application where they ask if you would like to serve in Nam....

Alot different from his old man who volunteered at seventeen...

I'll give props where they are deserved...

[phirili]

56. True, but the Deaners should concede Dean did his best not to serve

[IndianaGreen]

60. Coming from a chickenhawk such as you...

you have no grounds to say shit. You weren't there. You did not live through that period in history.

Tell me, would you condemn a man or woman that refused to serve in Iraq today?

Would you be as critical, when conscription begins in 2005, of those that get deferments for the draft?

Dean had a medical deferment. What about DeLay, or Pat Buchanan, or Phil Gramm, or Dick Cheney and Rush?

Why don't you make an issue of them, and their questionable deferments?

Here is the draft thread in LBN:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=244263

[phirili]

61. Screaminghawk you cannot deal with the truth. Dean should visit Iraq?

[IndianaGreen]

62. Are you going to provide security for the trip?

Because the GIs will be asked to provide security for another visiting politician, which is the last thing they need. It's easy to expect others to stick their necks out, isn't it kemo sabe?

[phirili]

64. Dean could stay at the airport like Prez, his call.

[IndianaGreen]

67. You still need security. Baghdad airport is shelled every day.

I hope you are of draftable age. Let's see how brave you really are.

[phirili]

70. You're making Bush look brave.

[IndianaGreen]

74. If you are in the 18-25 years of age, your goose is cooked

Bush is a coward and he was AWOL from his post.

Unless you get an antiwar Democrat elected in 2004, many people will see themselves drafted, and many more reservists and guardsmen will find themselves pulling extended active tours.

None of prowar Democrats will pull the troops out of Iraq. They will pursue the same failed policies that Bush followed for fear of being called "soft" on terrorism. They are repeating the same mistakes of Vietnam.

[IndianaGreen]

78. Men & women with "computer expertise" will be targets of draft

Women and men will have to register at local POs if they are doctors or nurses or have Special Skills, like computer expertise or languages, and they are under age 45. COs will have to provide "compelling evidence" to draft boards who are filled on recommendations by local politicians (NOT EASY, BELIEVE ME I DID IT).

Military Draft Could Include Women, Pacifists

Michael Betsch, CNSNews.com

Tuesday, Nov. 13, 2001

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/11/12/184604.shtml

Posted here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=790838

[DemocratSinceBirth]

71. Not Sure About How The Others Get Their Deferments

but Rush had a anal cist and Pat Buchanan had weak knees(sic)....

[IndianaGreen]

75. Phil Gramm's deferment was a real beaut

He claimed that he was teaching economics in college, consequently he could not be drafted for teaching such a skill.

How did his draft board buy that excuse, or was bought, I cannot imagine!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

79. Was It Gingrich Or Cheney Who Said They Had More Important

Things To Do?

One of my cousins was at the University of Iowa when they were cracking down on student deferments...

But he got into the New York National Guard....

[IndianaGreen]

80. I honestly don't remember which of them said that.

I forgot about Newt.

[ima_sinnic]

81. this "Deaner" will "concede" nothing of the sort

why don't you go push this stupid argument among other nonthinkers like yourself who might actually believe that it means something? you're talking to the wrong people here if you're looking for someone to agree with you.

He did what he was ordered to do. He was probably also ordered to provide all medical records. Do you think he should have lied or hidden his records? Do you think it would have somehow been "noble" to fake his way into an illegal horrendous imperialistic war??

And, as pointed out above, he went on to become a doctor and saved lives and eased suffering--instead of killing and maiming.

When are YOU going to put your money where your mouth is and MAKE them send you to Iraq??? You think that being excused from military combat is some kind of mortal sin so I expect to see you down at the recruiting headquarters FIRST THING Monday morning.

And why can't we let this stupid thread die?? I know it is because of stupid people like me that keep posting in it but I swear this is my LAST response. Please people let's ignore this one.

[IndianaGreen]

82. I hit the ALERT button when the thread was first started

It violated GD rules, and the NY Times story had nothing to do with the inflammatory message the poster had in the original message.

Nothing happened, so now we got this drivel from a chickenhawk Dean hater.

[phirili]

85. Just shows that the moderator is not as biased as you

[phirili]

97. Was Dean ordered to seal his gubernatorial records?

[CWebster]

110. SO DAMN WHAT!

The only person it is important to is you and some of your fellow hawks who have never served but buy all the gung-ho garbage about patriotism = military.

[Rose Siding]

109. A Bush apologist!

Or will anything in a uniform do?

Sounds like you have a beef with a recruiter somewhere, not Dean.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

41. Well

Bush doesn't have a stellar military record to exploit either.....

[sendero]

66. you'll excuse me...

... if I don't give a rat's ass about any label you'd try to attach to Dean.

[phirili]

69. Tucker on Crossfire said Dean should go to Baghdad instead of Aspen

for the holidays. Not me. What do you think?

[Rose Siding]

73. I think it sounds like something

a repub asshole would say and I would expect no better.

[IndianaGreen]

76. Tucker is also a chickenhawk

I think there is some commonality here!

[babzilla]

84. since the thread starter refuses to watch it

would someone else posting to this thread watch the link of Dean & the marines and comment on what they see?

click on Road to the White House Campaign stops in South Carolina with Former Governor Howard Dean (D-VT). Forward to 21:00 minutes to see Dean at Parris Island NC Marine Recruit Training Center.

http://www.c-span.org/Search/basic.asp?ResultStart=1&ResultCount=10&BasicQueryText=howard+Dean+south+carolina

[IndianaGreen]

86. I would hit the alert button on the thread starter if I were you

I did when the thread was started, but there was no response. Maybe you will be luckier.

[phirili]

88. Anyone has has the text of Dean's speeh from the Iowa Fundraiser

[babzilla]

92. So Iowa is the "combat zone"?

I thought you were suggesting that Dean get out amongst the troops.

Why don't you witness how he interacted with some marines in training to get a taste of how Dean intends to treat the people in the military?

Go ahead it won't kill you or even endanger you, though it may hurt your "combat zone" sensibilities.

http://www.c-span.org/Search/basic.asp?ResultStart=1&ResultCount=10&BasicQueryText=howard+Dean+south+carolina

[phirili]

95. I know Dean used some strange twisted logic at the Iowa fundraiser

[HFishbine]

94. I watched it

Dean was relaxed and interested. He engaged his hosts in meaningfull and intelligent discussion. He observed marines running "the crucible" then had lunch with recruits and was engaging withour being condescending. He talked to them man to man; kept the conversation going by showing a genuine interest in what their lives are like. He even engaged a recruit in a dicsussion about civil unions.

That's what I saw.

[phirili]

99. I cannot misquote Dr. Dean. But he did behave as if he owned a 600,000

group of supporters that would only vote for him or not vote at all.

Then the U have the Power mantra. Puke

[babzilla]

116. you're getting mixed-up

Hfishbine is not replying to your o/t request for a transcript for the Iowa debate. Nor is he replying to your o/t inquiry regarding Dean's gubernatorial records.

Hfishbine is replying to my plea in post #84 for someone to watch the c-span link and report back.

If only you would have clicked on the link that I so kindly provided, especially for you phirili, you'd have a better idea of what is transpiring in this thread.

Hfishbine is merely describing what you will see when you finally pull out that "handy link" that you have stashed away for that rainy day.

Hey, you don't even have to be afraid for your tummy, Dean doesn't say U have the power once in either segment, I promise.

http://www.c-span.org/Search/basic.asp?ResultStart=1&ResultCount=10&BasicQueryText=howard+Dean+south+carolina

[phirili]

105. Is Dean's Iowa fundraiser speech on his website?

[Demobrat]

89. Nobody but the most diehard Bush fan

will see this as anything except what it is, and no Dean should not visit the troops until after he's elected. I wouldn't be surprised if he does it before he takes office, though.

[phirili]

90. The fence position. Like Dean; like Deaner

[Demobrat]

91. What fence?

I don't think he or any of the candidates should go before the election, unless by going they can actually do the troops some good. Once he's elected and the visit actually means something, then he should go, of course, in order to reassure them ASAP.

[phirili]

93. Like giving Bush the authority to wage unilateral war and being against

the war

[Demobrat]

96. Huh?

I think you have Dean confused with somebody else, Kerry maybe. Oh, and by the way, calling Dean a draft dodger over and over will never make it so, no matter how many times you try. Have a good time with that, though.

[phirili]

98. I never called Dean a draft dodger.

[maddezmom]

108. no you just used the term

"draft dodger" label...what the hell is the difference?

[CWebster]

100. The usual flamebait from the usual obnoxious Clark zealots

targeting Dean again. And you think your bashing is going to convince Dean supporters?

I want to know why this thread isn't locked.

[IndianaGreen]

102. I don't think phirili is a Clark or anyone else's "zealot"

I have been hitting the alert button for some time because I think phirili is just breaking GD rules.

[CWebster]

101. Does the title of this thread match the link?

Where the hell is the mod?

Why isn't this thread locked?

[IndianaGreen]

103. No, it doesn't match the link

and that was the reason I hit the alert the first time several hours ago.

[ShaneGR]

104. Kind of funny a thread about Bush turned into a Dem candidate flame fest

sighs

[IndianaGreen]

106. Starting with GD rule #1

1. The subject line of a discussion thread must accurately reflect the actual content of the message.

[phirili]

107. Bush was in the combat zone. That's why the issue is all over the news

[IndianaGreen]

112. "hope Dean visits Iraq soon... 'draft dodger' label"

hope Dean visits Iraq soon. A Dean visit to Afgan. or Iraq or both could negate his 'draft dodger' label.

Your game is up!

Actually, your game will be up if conscription starts in 2005 as it has pointed out in several other threads that have been posted this month.

Once you are in uniform you will know the difference between being in a large airport complex, subjected to intermittent shelling by resistance fighters, and having to go on patrol across Fallujah. One is close and personal, the other is not. I'll let you figure out which is which.

[phirili]

113. Label given to hime by the media. Not me.

[phirili]

111. Why are the Deannuts responsible for requesting threads to be closed

It's kinda sad. Fight the clean fight; don't cut and run/ski.

[Name removed]

114. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[newyawker99]

115. I am locking this thread.

It is inflammatory.


NYer99
DU Moderator