Why is America by far the most religious industrialized nation?

[_Jumper_]

Does anyone know why this has happened? This is really hurting us. If America was as religious as any other industrialized nation the Democratic Party would be dominant right now...

[UrbScotty]

1. I think it has to do with the Founding Fathers

They always talked about God a lot. It also extends back into the colonial times.

But I disagree that it's hurting us. I consider myself a strong Catholic, yet I've pretty much been a Democrat my whole life.

[_Jumper_]

4. Most religious people, especially in the South are Republican

:(

[Blue_Chill]

67. Most people are religious

Most Democrats
Most Republicans
Most period.

[0007]

76. Show me where you got your statistics from and I will shock ya...

[muriel_volestrangler]

91. recent poll

http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=408

all demographic areas (region, age, sex, ethnicity, party id, education) in the US have over 50% with an absolute belief in 'god'. In fact, the Republicans believe the most, then Democrats, then independents.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

93. So, basically what they're saying is that basic percentage of people...

...believe in God as they always have, but more of them are turning away from organized religion.

[0007]

96. Doesn't sound like the religious folks practice what they love, 'eh?

Only 36% Attend a Religious Service Once a Month or More Often

[Blue_Chill]

123. You believe one needs to attend church to practice their religion?

Interesting way to look at it.

Now you said you were planning on shocking me? I'm waiting.

[0007]

164. No, but the way most folks act ya can kinda tell that giving up one hour..

a week is just asking a littl bit too much. This nation means one thing and practices another, 'eh?

Can you judge people by their actions? I say usually but not always.

[Blue_Chill]

171. So now you judge those that don't go to church?

You continue to amaze me.

[0007]

178. Stick around kid you have much to learn

I could even tell you about 'Cafeteria Catholics' bet ya love that, 'eh?

[Blue_Chill]

179. Whatever you say

I'll pray you one day learn not to judge others. It's obvious there is a little envy and anger in your judgement.

[0007]

186. Your the one that said "most" ...

"Most Democrats Most Republicans Most period."

You do not have sufficient power to pray for me, but if you do you can answer two questions I have for you.

And if you do have sufficent power with you prayers, then this little exercise will be duck soup for you.
There is a word that all spiritual persons know and understand. The first letter of this word begins with the letter “S” and the last letter of this word ends with an “S” - the word has 19 letters. I’ll
even give you a clue. It is a virtue that only few possess. And not many practice, including you.

If you can figure it out let me know my spiritual guru ~ Peace ~ If you get that far I have another question for you.

[Blue_Chill]

188. lol you have to be kidding me

Sorry friend but I don't go for games. And Most stands. The 50% doesn't include Catholics. Look it up.

[0007]

189. 'Tis very easy, and you just proved to me what you indeed know, Sir...

Hasta la vista, moustache

[Blue_Chill]

195. k buddy whatever you say

One day you'll grow up and realise that you aren't important enough to force others to play your games. Perhaps I'd be far more willing to play along if you had "shocked me" as you claimed. But sadly you forgot about Catholics, and tried to pretend attending church was mandatory to be considered religious. Sad, I was expecting more.

But hey keep your chin up, who needs a majority anyway eh?

[0007]

165. I just did and you didn't catch it!

Look up the definition of most. sucker!

[TexasMexican]

152. you dont need to...

go to church to believe in God.

[0007]

190. I agree, but most folks that love god, wife, or children...

try to be with 'em as much as possible and around those that share the same feelings of love by going to church to demonstrate that love and to learn as much as they about those they love, 'eh? Except for the holidays you won't find too many people in church, but you always find the bars, the sport affairs, the whore houses, the porn shops, and the malls always full of people.

[Blue_Chill]

196. How do you know this?

How do you know how most folks do anything? Perhaps you think you are God, and thus have access to all this information of personal motivations and actions. hmm.

BTW just curious, have you been to church on Sunday? I've been to many different churches on Sunday, and do you know what they all have in common? People. They aren't empty as you seem to feel.

Now have you ever stood outside a church on...say Tuesday? Ever see how people come and go, not many but a few here and there. They are worshipping their way. Ever met someone that refuses to go to church but still prays at night when no one is looking, a guy who goes and helps the world where he can? He's worshipping in his own way.

You see you are quick to judge but you don't have a clue. You can't understand a realtionship with god, so you instead seek to judge it and belittle it.

[0007]

202. For your soul young man and your saucy attitude!

In latin;

Mors stuprbit et natura
Cum resurget creatura
Judicanti responsura

[Blue_Chill]

209. The state of my soul and attitude have very little to do with

a quote from Ambrose "Bitter" Bierce.

[Hippo_Tron]

219. Umm Britain has their own church...

And a House of Lords where Bishops get seats for being Bishops. I don't see why you somehow seem to think that America is the most religious industrialized nation.

[Spider Jerusalem]

220. "Religious" obviously means the PEOPLE.

And, in Britain, a higher percentage of the population reports as atheist or agnostic in polls; not only that, only 1% of the people in the UK attend church regularly. Hardly "more religious" than the US.

[Cheswick2.0]

141. I hate to burst your bubble, but most democrats are also religious

79% (85% in another poll 2 years ago) percent of the country beleives in God. Rationally you must then realize that democrats are also religious.

[redbill]

7. iluvevery1

Maybe you should focus on loving yourself more and hating others less.

[A HERETIC I AM]

36. "Freedom of Religion" created a free market FOR religion.

Religious freedom and tolerance for various sects/ideologies means a wide variety of same. The religious marketplace can be equated to car dealerships. Some large dealerships have huge sales and customer bases, same with large churches. Others are small. We are so religious in this country because of the diversity allowed and guaranteed by the constitution.

[devinsgram]

136. Exactly correct,

those such as Falwell and Robertson are great salepersons and they sell religion. They should be selling spirituallity not organized religion. There is a big difference.

[reprobate]

168. What about freedom FROM religion?

[Muddleoftheroad]

169. What about it?

And where is THAT in the Constitution?

[Blue_Chill]

184. It's not in the constitution

Some just try to twist freedom of into some rule that forces faith into dark corners where they never have to see it.

Remember when they insult all the religious it's fine, but if they happen to see a cross they are horribly insulted.

[A HERETIC I AM]

192. The concept of "Freedom of Conscience" was not foreign to the framers

and that is also freedom FROM religious persecution and proselytizing.

[Blue_Chill]

197. From persecution, of course

But to expect you can do thru life without solicitation, lol good luck. I get to hear the sales pitch of every organization I come across damn near everyday, but in your eyes churches should be prevented from doing this.

Here's a thought, I bet I read the atheist sales pitch 45 times a day. So I'll take your road, please tell them to stfu I'm sick of having their views stuffed in my face.

[A HERETIC I AM]

204. Where the hell did i ever say churches should be prevented from doing this

?????????? Please, Mr Chill....chill. Dont put words in my text ..er..mouth. Show me the quote where i said or inferred that and i will concede. Until then, you can take your stfu and...well...stfu.

one more thing....look in your yellow pages under "Churches" or "Religious organizations" and see how many listings there are. Then look under "Atheism" or any other category you can think of. What will you find? There is NO shortage of religion in the marketplace and DAMNED FEW IF ANY organizations to the contrary. And oh yes, i am sure you are hit up dozens of times a day by atheists trying to convert you to the dark side. give me a break

[Blue_Chill]

208. You said it here

"and that is also freedom FROM religious...proselytizing"

Also the rest of your post is funny. You ask me to "look in the yellow pages" when you know atheist don't build churches. However if you google it, or read democratic underground, or just about every non fundie message board you are bombarded. So spare me the false arguments because what YOU ARE DOING IS PROSELYTIZING YOUR BELIEFS ALL OVER THIS THREAD.

[A HERETIC I AM]

215. I get the distinct impression that Blue Chill doesn’t like folks that dont

think of god or religion in a way he approves of!!! AWW.....bwaaa ha aha aha...OOPS....sorry. Oh well, I suppose I cant make EVERYBODY happy. "However if you google it, or read democratic underground, or just about every non fundie message board you are bombarded. So spare me the false arguments because what YOU ARE DOING IS PROSELYTIZING YOUR BELIEFS ALL OVER THIS THREAD."

Just cant stand the idea that someone might hold the opinion that god is bunk and isn’t afraid to say so, can ya? Oh well. Look, I am not trying to convert anyone IN SPITE of your repeated inferences to the contrary. Believe in god all you want! That's what this thread is all about. But don’t for a second try and infer that there is some sort of pogrom against your point of view. That does little more than make it obvious to me that you aren’t as sure of your faith as you would have us all believe.

“Some just try to twist freedom of into some rule that forces faith into dark corners where they never have to see it.
Remember when they insult all the religious it's fine, but if they happen to see a cross they are horribly insulted.”
What the hell are you talking about? Who wants to force faith into a dark corner? This is the argument of a hysteric. I merely look forward to the day when that inevitability occurs. You don’t like that. Tough. Suck it up, believer. Sooner or later, mankind will evolve to the point that all belief in the gods of the ancients will be regarded in the same way as the gods of the Romans and the Greeks are. Nice, quaint little historical dustbin.
Admit it. You don’t like the idea that there are people like me. You don’t like it at all not to mention that I might have similar political points of view as you I keep telling you to think any way you want. You want to insist I am doing something bad because I think my way or because I have the audacity to say so. I insist you can think the way you want. You think you are right and you have your “Beliefs” Fine. Live long and prosper. Your god is STILL a myth and deep down you know it.

[Muddleoftheroad]

222. The Godless

Maybe instead of your reasons, it's just that anyone here at DU who HAS faith is almost constantly bombarded by the Godless who try to make their life here a living hell. They deliberately mock our beliefs, our religions and our God. Every reference to religion is filled with offensive commentary. Just look at how people here refer to the Catholic Church which has and continues to do tons of good in the world. Nevertheless, here at DU, every priest is a called a pedophile and every bishop a co-conspirator or worse.

The Democratic Party is a big tent and most of the folks in that tent are religious. But the extreme left hates this and wants to abuse anyone who believes in God. And they wonder why they are sometimes shunned by moderates.

And, at the very last, you remind us of how offensive, how disgusting and just how damn rude some here are to people who are religious. Thanks for being all the proof we ever need of such offensive behavior.

And no, my God is not a myth. One day, you will find that out.

[muriel_volestrangler]

223. I don't want to be offensive

but I do want to argue with you.

Do you regard the Hindu holy books as myth? Or reality? If the former, can you see that calling the Bible myth has no more intent to offend than your attitude to other religions.

I'm not 100% sure if you're Christian or not, but if you are, then you'll accept that Jesus told parables to illustrate points. Is it such a stretch to believe that the early 'history' in the Bible is the same?

If you do believe that all the Hindu, Islamic, Christian and other holy books all tell true stories, then you have a capacity to hold apparently contradictory thoughts way, way above mine.

[Muddleoftheroad]

224. Holy books

I hold Hindu holy books as Hindu holy books. They are holy to Hindus and I respect that. They are not holy to me because of my own beliefs, but I would treat them with deference. I do not judge them to be myths or reality. That is for their believers to judge.

Yes, I am Christian. Yes, Jesus told parables. Jesus was not a parable according to my beliefs.

I simply do not judge other religions and trust that they will not judge mine. I believe that someone who worships in his/her own way is OK by me and needs no judging of his/her beliefs.

[0007]

229. The best post you've come up with yet, I applaud you..

[Muddleoftheroad]

231. Thank you

Very much.

[A HERETIC I AM]

244. Unicorns are real cause i think they are!!!!

Muddleoftheroad said:

"Yes, I am Christian. Yes, Jesus told parables. Jesus was not a parable according to my beliefs."

Saying "Jesus was not a parable according to my beliefs." is EXACTLY the same as saying "Leprechauns live under my stoop because i think they do!" Any way you want to look at it, it is the same. This is Myth Making. It is faith if it is held passionately, to be sure, but it is also myth. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DONT THINK THIS IS AN ATTACK!!!! IT ISNT!!!!!! What it is is pointing out a fallacy in your argument! THATS ALL!!! Once again, for the umpteenth time, If your beliefs make you a better person, THEN THAT IS THE POINT!!!! But please dont present that which has its veracity broadly questioned as fact. God surely exists in the mind of the believer. But that is the extent of it.

[0007]

226. Thank you muriel -

Maybe the bingo players will take a little time and start thinking instead of playing their mindless games.

Had to put one poster on my ignore list because of a saucier 'than thou art' attitude was getting to be just too much to handle, LOL!! The poster you just answered is playing in left field also, I think.

Kinda like yapping monkeys that never shut up and without thinking about the ridiculous statements they make. Even after you posted your poll numbers on religion they still make claims that are contrary.

When ya live in a far-out fictional world as some do, ya just gotta cut it off somewhere. These folks are so :-( it makes one wonder why they don't get a life.

Thanks for the wonderful post and hopefully these crybabies :nopity: will quit crying.

Namaste

[Blue_Chill]

236. The question is one of tact not belief

I may believe many things are myths, stories, and even crack fueled fantasy. But I don't spot a hindu poster and leap at them claws at the ready. That's the difference.

I have defended MANY belief systems on DU that are not my own. It bothers me that the ONLY side on this board that can't show a little tact are the anti-theists. They REFUSE to stop attacking, insulting, and mocking anyone that belives there is anything more to the world then that which can be measured by men in white coats.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

232. please don't blame the left for teenage athiests

Muddle, I understand and share your frustrations with those that want a culture free from religion (and those that want a culture full of it) but please don't call these people the "extreme left" - most that I have met are uber-lassez-faire libertarians, and libertines to boot.

[A HERETIC I AM]

248. I hope you aren't referring to me, because i am no teenager.

[Blue_Chill]

238. A response

Just cant stand the idea that someone might hold the opinion that god is bunk and isn’t afraid to say so, can ya?

How do you feel about people that are of the opinion that you are a crazied idiot and spam the boards with these "opinions". Would you be happy if I did that? No you wouldn't. The problem isn't that you have an opinion, it's that you have no tact.


Look, I am not trying to convert anyone IN SPITE of your repeated inferences to the contrary.

When a Christian spouts off about why christianity is right and all else is wrong they are immediately accused of trying to convert everyone. That christian is shoving their beliefs down everyones throats.

BUT WHEN YOU DO IT, oh well that's different, you are innocent.

:eyes:

Here you answer your own question.....
Who wants to force faith into a dark corner?

I merely look forward to the day when....mankind will evolve to the point that all belief in the gods...will be in a...Nice, quaint little historical dustbin.

Why do you ask questions, make accusations, and then prove yourself wrong? You should stop that, it's unhealthy.


Admit it. You don’t like the idea that there are people like me.

People with no tact that can't stop themselves from attacking all those that think differently then themselves. Yes I admit it, I don't like the idea there are people like that.

You want to insist I am doing something bad because I think my way or because I have the audacity to say so.

When the way you voice your beliefs are insulting to all those that think differently YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING WRONG. Any of us could take that approach on this issue, but it isn't right.

[A HERETIC I AM]

250. A response to the responders response

Let's cut and paste, shall we?

"How do you feel about people that are of the opinion that you are a crazied idiot and spam the boards with these "opinions". Would you be happy if I did that? No you wouldn't. The problem isn't that you have an opinion, it's that you have no tact. "

1) I didn’t "Spam" the boards. I replied to posts on a thread. If you don’t like it. TOUGH. This is a moderated forum. I had at least one of my posts deleted and I would assume it was because i was out of line and needlessly insulting. Fine! I deserved it! The rest of my posts remain. This was not up to you. It was up to the moderators who have apparently determined that i have yet to cross that line again. There is another poster on this thread that has had almost ALL of his posts deleted. Was he spamming? Or just out of line too? (BTW, he was on YOUR side)
2) If folks are of the Opinion that i am a "Crazed idiot" SO F*CKING BE IT!!! Most of the posters on DU think the same of our president! What's your point? Baah...who bleeding cares what your point is.
3)If the problem is MERELY that i have no tact, why hasn’t EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOUR RESPONSES TO MY POSTS been simply "Heretic? You have no tact"
Hmmmmm?

When a Christian spouts off about why christianity is right and all else is wrong they are immediately accused of trying to convert everyone. That christian is shoving their beliefs down everyones throats.
BUT WHEN YOU DO IT, oh well that's different, you are innocent.

1) (I particularly like this bit: "When a Christian spouts off about why Christianity is right and all else is wrong "

Is it? Really? Truly? No other path to paradise will suffice? No other way to grace and enlightenment comes close? Not even a LITTLE BIT? wow......how cool is that? If you think about that for even a NANOSECOND longer than your normally dogmatic mindset might allow, it is possible you could see just how incredibly asinine that position is and why...oh...maybe just a little...why others might get a wee upset.
One other thing.....when you tell a complete stranger that YOUR way to paradise is right and theirs is wrong, YOU BECOME THE ARROGANT ASSHOLE. Not the atheist who has no such interest. I never said you or any other Christians faith was WRONG. The point i have been trying to make since my first post on this topic is that the faiths of the god of Abraham (you DO know which ones those are, don’t you, Blue?) ARE BASED ON MYTH AND ALLEGORY. That’s all i have been saying. It isn’t just my opinion and i don’t say it cause i hate religions or the faithful. I say it because it is historically correct. If you don’t like that either - TOUGH!

Now for the fun part!!

Blue Chill cut and pasted the following together suggesting i said it as a statement:

"I merely look forward to the day when....mankind will evolve to the point that all belief in the gods...will be in a...Nice, quaint little historical dustbin."

with the convenient ...'s in between different segments. It is misleading and a cheap shot. Here is the entire text of what i originally wrote; (In response to an accusation he made of me)

"What the hell are you talking about? Who wants to force faith into a dark corner? This is the argument of a hysteric. I merely look forward to the day when that inevitability occurs. You don’t like that. Tough. Suck it up, believer. Sooner or later, mankind will evolve to the point that all belief in the gods of the ancients will be regarded in the same way as the gods of the Romans and the Greeks are. Nice, quaint little historical dustbin."


i don’t know...i read it and read it again and for the life of me, i cant see how i wanted to "try to twist freedom of into some rule that forces faith into dark corners where they never have to see it."

All i said was how i PERSONALLY look forward to the day when that INEVITABILITY OCCURS! That will certainly not be in MY lifetime. It probably wont be for another thousand years. But it will happen or much of the human race will most likely annihilate themselves arguing over whose god has a bigger penis whilst the folks in control will live fat, smart and happy watching it all on Satellite from their yachts in the Adriatic.

Has religion done good things? OF COURSE!!!!! I NEVER SAID IT HADNT!!! Has it been good for mankind in general? Well....i think the jury is still out, but suffice to say, if all men merely had a proper, decent, humanistic personal ethic and followed the golden rule (being kind to your fellow man, do unto others, etc. Which btw, as a philosophical ideal, predates the bible by THOUSANDS of years) it would make all of the efforts of the church and religions in general entirely superfluous.

"When the way you voice your beliefs are insulting to all those that think differently YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING WRONG. Any of us could take that approach on this issue, but it isn't right."

Voicing an opinion or beliefs that are or might be insulting to those that think differently IS THE FUCKING POINT OF THIS FORUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If i say something that you find insulting TOUGH!!!!! This isn't kindergarten and i don’t have to walk on eggshells because i might offend someone who thinks there is an invisible man in the sky and doesn’t like that idea threatened!

This bullshit idea that theists and religionists (yes, that’s you, Blue and you too Muddle) have that their "Beliefs should not be insulted" IS poppycock! To Quote Michael Palin; "If I went round' sayin' i was an Emperor. just cause some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!" If you expect everyone to respect your beliefs but not be able to look at them skeptically and critically then you are in the wrong century. The church has HAD it's free ride for well over a thousand years. Time now for reason and logic to reign.

[politicat]

245. It's not about seeing a cross, it's about public money and endorsement.

I'm non-Christian (and no, you don't need to know what my faith is because it's PERSONAL) and the issue we have, as separationists is that public funds and public endorsement must be officially neutral.

Put a cross on public land? That's endorsing Christianity over Judaism (and incidentally, reminding Jews of the thousands of times over the centuries that Christians have come for their literal blood in pogroms); Christianity over Islam (same forced conversions and wars of religion); Christianity over paganism (pagans were forced to convert at sword's edge or given smallpox infested blankets or had their children taken from them to be "civilized") ... do I need to go on? For the 30% of the country that is non-Christian, that symbol is a symbol of fear. It means the Army is coming to subjugate us again. And don't tell me that's all long ago and far away. It's not. Religious groups have marched against Jews as recently as the late 60's and pagans have lost their children in divorces as recently as this year.

You're free to worship any how you please as long as it doesn't hurt people - no ritual murders, no drowning conversants in the baptismal font - or break laws. No murder, no rape, no forced marriage, no sex with minors. You're welcome to do it in your own buildings that you all work hard to pay for. You should be proud of them. They are yours.

But just as it is inappropriate for me, a private citizen, to walk into your church and chant uninvited, or for my pagan friend to cast the circle, or my jewish friend to have a bar mitzvah in your space, it is equally inappropriate for you to come into a public space that was paid for by all of us and exhibit your Christianity.

You don't like it? You don't like the diversity? You don't like people being able to make up their own minds and yeah, feel insulted when you shove your views down their throats and into their kids? You don't like the fact that there's such a thing as a PRIVATE sphere (home, family, church) and a public sphere (government, business, politics)? There are a ton of religiously active, pro-religion societies in the world. Please feel free to examine any one of them and report back on how you would get a diverse, religiously mixed (including not at all) society to cookie cutter itself into one religion.... Need some hints?

Here, try -

Sunny Iran, where women have to wear a veil!
Beautiful Pakistan, where children learn their religion and only their religion in upstanding private schools!
Glorious Israel, where thousands of people die every year in an on-going battle of religions and cultures.
Quaint Nigeria, where women face stoning to death for bearing a child of rape.

And let's not forget everyone's favorite, charming Afghanistan, where they blow up the relics of other religions, forbid women to leave the house without a male relative, and hang girls who show their hands and feet.

That is wnat a religiously homongenous society looks like.

Blue_Chill, popular isn't right. It's just popular. If Popular meant right, then no one would pay taxes, pizza and beer would be free, and no one would have to work....

But when the pizza and beer ran out, there'd be death and starvation.

Politicat (who wonders how you possibly missed the democratic idea of diversity and fairness for all, even atheists, pagans, Buddhists, and Jews.)

[joeybee12]

2. Partly because of the people who settled here first--esp. the Puritans

That influence is still felt.

And I know I'm gonna get flamed on this, but it's because people in most other industrialized nations are better educated. I think the more educated people are, the less likely they are to be influenced by crackpot religions, such as those that seem to sprout up daily in this country.

[joshdawg]

9. I tend to agree with you

Most of the people I am around are very well educated and they pretty much dismiss religion, even tho' they have a strong belief in spirituality. The have their own definition of god. They are not followers of whoever is in the "pulpit."

[jsw_81]

11. Indeed

There was a poll taken a few years ago that showed that our nation's finest scientists, members of the elite National Academy of Science, are overwhelmingly atheist and agnostic. Only a tiny minority were devout or believers in a personal god. Believers (especially fundies) hate it when I mention this and I think that speaks volumes.

[Cheswick2.0]

142. so scientists are more intelligent than other people?

I hardly think that is true. I'll put my IQ up against the average scientist any day. It think your attitude speaks volumes about what you don't understand about intelligence.

PS... I know several scientists who are quite ignorant about many things except science.

[Muddleoftheroad]

145. Forest and trees

Sometimes people become so focused on what they think they know, they lose all perspective. A bunch of scientists can be smart in one area and stupid in another.

[Blue_Chill]

58. Then your educated friends are idiots

The guy in the "pulpit" isn't there to be followed. You'd think the highly educated, which you imply must not be religious, would know that.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

89. But that's just your opinion, right?

[Blue_Chill]

107. Do you only have problems with opinions

that aren't anti-religious? If so just let me know so we can at least frame our future discussions accurately.

[durutti]

3. Interesting Topic

Could be the topic of a dissertation.

Puritanism is a big part of it, I'd imagine.

Also, America's an arch-capitalist country... which goes hand-in-hand with Calvinism.

[opihimoimoi]

5. Religion is USED as a means of control. Its that simple.

With Control comes Prediction. If you can control, you can Predict YOUR OWN PROFITS/AGENDA

Hello out there?? Lights are on??? Anybody home?? We Americans have to wake up and smell the coffee/. We are being used and abused and guess what, we have come to LIKE/LUV IT

[_Jumper_]

8. I agree

But why do you think it is a much more effective means of control here than in any other industrialized nation?

[Art_from_Ark]

234. It has a lot to do with "being on top"

In the Western world, virtually every country that has "been on top" has attributed its good fortune to "God".

"Dieu protege la France"-- God protects France
"God zij med ons"-- God be with us (Netherlands)
"God bescheckt Belge/Dieu protege Belgie"-- God protects Belgium
"Gott sei mit uns"-- God be with us (Germany)

The above are all cases of mottoes that appeared on coins from the respective countries during their respective heydays (empires). In some cases, such as with France and Germany, these mottoes were resurrected after a period of national soul-searching when it didn't appear that God was actually protecting/being with the country. Religious mottoes seem to have disappeared altogether from W. European coins after WWII, with the curious exception of the UK, which still faithfully includes D.G. (or Dei Gratia-- by the Grace of God) and F.D. (or Fid. Def.-- Defender of the Faith) on its coins.

In the case of the United States, the religious motto, In God We Trust, was added to Union coins in 1864, during the Civil War. The Union went on to win, so many people viewed it as a sign that God was on the Union's (and thus, America's) side. Since the United States has never been devastated in a war since that time, and is currently "on top", it is only natural that the masses believe that God Is With Us.

[Blue_Chill]

48. yadda yadda

It's amazing how you that are "free from control" all sound like a broken record.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

90. Maybe you should do a little reading on the Spanish Inquisition.

[Blue_Chill]

106. I know all about it, you have any questions?

BTW - didn't you not want to discuss religion (your other post), or are you one of those that only likes to gather up in a little group of atheist bigots and trash it?

[Beaker]

124. Marx called it "the opiate of the masses"...

but then, Marx never had a plasma screen TV.

[Cheswick2.0]

144. well if Marx said so it must be true

considering Marx is the author of a failed philosophy. YIKES LOL

[Beaker]

198. considering that it's never actually been tried

I don't see how it can be called a "failed philosophy"...time will tell- but one things for sure- the guys in charge now are speeding up the process on a global scale.

[Redleg]

237. A "failed philosophy?"

Which nation has actually successfully implemented Marx's main ideas? If anything has failed, it's the people and not Marx's "philosophy."

Furthermore, Marx (and I don't necessary agree with his solutions to capitalism) made a very cogent critique of capitalism, a critique that has been accepted, at least in part, by many scholars in economics, sociology, and even in my field, organizational behavior.

[jsw_81]

6. Religion

I think one of the main reasons is our poor education system. In many nations (Japan, Germany etc.) students learn advanced math and science in the early grades. Here in the U.S. it's usually optional or not offered at all, especially in poor school districts. As a result we have a huge segment of the population that believes in stuff like creationism, a young earth, Noah's flood, and a literal Hell just to name a few. To make matters worse, many of these people actively oppose science and critical thinking. Just look at the annual battles we have over textbooks in places like Texas. The fundies tend to oppose ANY mention of evolution in science books, and are constantly trying to insert references to God and "intelligent design" theory. And sometimes they even turn violent when they don't get their way. Believe it or not, but in the 1970's fundies in West Virginia made death threats against science teachers and even plotted to have local atheists and liberal Christians killed. And it was all because the textbooks included an in-depth discussion of evolution. Fortunately, several of the fundies went to prison and science carried the day.

Please note that I'm not attacking all religionists or suggesting that they're all stupid (indeed many are brilliant), only the fundies who want to establish a "Judeo-Christian" theocracy based on "Biblical" principles. I have no tolerance for such people.

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[redbill]

28. What does it matter?

No. And what would it matter anyway?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

92. Oh, I think we can thank the good folks in Congress that have ...

...been cutting the funding to the states for what used to be an excellent public education system.

[Blue_Chill]

47. Chile is far more religious then the US

and our schools excel in Math and Science. You may now go in search of some other problem for which to blame religion. Good luck, talk to you soon.

BTW - this isn't the first time you've gone against religion friend, so don't pretend your opinion is unbias.

[Cheswick2.0]

146. that's just wrong

we have as good an educational system as anywhere in the world, unless you buy the right wing spin of course.

PS... did you know there are also left wing fundies? You might want to open your scope of understanding a bit to include some shades of gray you are missing. I would also suggest losing the word religionist.

[Jack The Tab]

10. America is a relatively young nation...

I think that may have something to do with it. European nations and Asian nations usually have 1000+ years of experience.

Plus we were founded by religious extremists

[jsw_81]

13. This is true

Religions evolve a lot like people do. They start out young and clueless, tend to get really aggressive in their teens, and then usually mature. Note how aggresive young Islam is, especially compared with Christianity and the much older Jewish religion. Have Jews EVER tried to convert you? No way. They keep to themselves and emphasize education and hard work. Muslims and Christians on the other hand...

[Cheswick2.0]

148. may I suggest a bit more research

there was a time that the jewish religion was evangelistic. Quick, tell me when and why that fact changed. No fair using google

[Holly]

15. Young nation yes,

but this must be a small factor. Canada is younger than the US, but much less religious. For example 75% of Canadian's feel that the church (of your choice) should not attempt to influence legislation or elected reps. I'm very interested why there is a difference betweeen our two nations.

[ozone_man]

200. I'm very interested too, and envious.

Maybe Canada has more of an old world influence (Britain and France), while U.S. has been founded by those seeking refuge from old world churches (Puritans and Huegenots, etc.).

Anyway, I have an issue with the religous polls, since alot of folks are not willing to come out and say that they don't believe in god, or that they aren't religous. Polls of this nature have to be done very carefully. I think there are probably fewer religous than this poll indicates, and I think it's dropping. I can come out and say that I am essentially an Atheist, but I might be uncomfortable saying that in the certain situations.

I have suspicions that one reason that the U.S. may be more religous than other industrialized countries has to do with controlling its own population as well as aiding U.S. imperialism by proselytizing 3rd world countries to allow controlling them and their resource. Witness the evangelist missionary work around the world in the last 100 years, in particular, where there are valuable minerals, lumber, oil, etc..

I think religion is a weapon both within the country and without. Marx was right on when he said that religion was the opiate of the masses.

[JailBush]

12. The Civil War

Like 9/11, the Civil War was a very frightening event that rallied people behind religion and patriotism. It also gave a big boost to Big Business, which may have been into the propaganda business even earlier. Check out the history of the coin motto, In God We Trust - it was mandated by a small group of people just before the Civil War.

After the Civl War, Big Business and public education both flourished. Having learned its lesson from the Civil War, the government was determined to make U.S. citizens more patriotic. At the same time, Big Business was exerting more control over the government.

Thus, the U.S. flag and the Pledge of Allegiance were thrust into schools, with the words "under God" added many years later.

Before the Civil War, Lewis and Clark referred to our nation as "these united states." After the Civil War, it was called "the United States."

Study the history of organized religion and patriotism, the Pledge of Allegiance, the U.S. socialist movement and labor, and you'll get a pretty good idea where we've come from - and where we're going.

[wildmanj]

14. Why

thinking is hard work---most people would rather be told than to think for themselves---plus the democrats travel a thousand road getting to rome; whereas, the republicans only travel a few and then they will fight you like hell for what they believe in (MONEY & POWER)i don't necessarily know the republicans are at fault for the democrats basically being spineless--we had all they have now and gave it to them without much of a fight----religion is merely a side show on the way to the more important things---it appears to me that religion has basically been a tool of the capitalist---convert you pagans or die---that is after we stole them blind:eyes:

[jsw_81]

19. Yes

Thinking is definitely hard work. And to understand life and the universe without religion or the supernatural you need to have a firm grasp on things like cosmology, astronomy, chemistry, biology, math, psychology, history and so on. It's much easier to just say "goddidit" and go on with your life.

[wildmanj]

29. universe

up to now it appears that gravity will be the ultimate determinate of what happens in this universe--religion s@@ks---spirituality is a most wonderful thing:crazy:

[Name removed]

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[jsw_81]

25. I agree somewhat

It's definitely true (and ironic) that religions flourish in nations like ours that at least attempt to keep church and state apart, yet they collapse in places like Europe that have established state churches.

But I disagree that strong religious belief is essential for a successful society. Just look at Japan for example. They're less than one percent Christian but have a wonderful society that is in many respects a lot more advanced than our own. They live longer, have a lower crime rate, have a lower rate of illiteracy, aren't nearly as polluted etc. How can this be if a strong religion (e.g. "Judeo-Christian values") is so essential? There are even similar examples here in the states. Where would you rather raise a family, in secular, tolerant Oregon or fundamentalist dominated Alabama? Washington or Mississippi? Hawaii or Texas?

[redbill]

39. You miss the point

I didn't say that strong religious belief was essential for a society to be successful. What I described was a system of belief that was re-introduced to the world during the Renaissance (a re-introduction of Hellenistic Classicism and Judeo-Christian ethics that confounded the stifling influence of feudal Europe and the Catholic Church of the Middle Ages) and formalized during the Enlightenment. It was this philosophy that permeated the beliefs of our founding fathers, who believed that all systems of thought were connected: religion, jurisprudence, morality & ethics, economics, science, etc. It was this philosphy of meaning and organization in nature and Nature's God that leads to the philosophy of freedom and potential progress. America didn't invent it. We just institutionalized it. And thank God for it.

Regarding Japan. I have travelled to Japan 6 times this past year, and will likely be there 5 more times this coming year. If you consider the high penetration rate of cell phones to entail some level of superiority, then I guess the Japanese have a superior society. However, many of my Japanes colleagues express an intense desire to leave Japan because of the miserable lives they live, but they feel so much pressure to conform to the Japanese ideal that they just can't. It's a very constraining society, and they admit it. They work long hours (or at least appear to work long hours. Much of what they do is, by their own self-admission, piddling around to impress the boss.) for little advancement, both professionally and personally. The business practices of Japan are often unethical by any standard (I know many many Americans have unethical practices, but I like knowing I'm getting screwed as opposed to finding out later). The crime rate in Japan is largely hidden, and what crimes occur are often ghastly. The last time I was in Japan, I don't know how many articles I read about somebody dismembering somebody else. They are very literate, but not so very creative beyond the boundaries of traditional Japanese structure. If you are a woman, you would likely never have the potential of a professional career. In all of the meetings I attend in Japan, women are always secretaries or admin assistants. Nothing bad about that, but if that is all the choice you have... I have never once met a Japanese woman engineer or executive of any level. No women decision-makers. They admit all of this. But it is changing, and primarily because of the influence of America. More and more Japanese busness people are coming to America to learn American ways. Japan looks successful, but they are breaking down internally. In fact, many Japanese tell me they are looking to America (as an example) to help them out of the economic malaise they have been in for the past 10 years. This is just modern history. Read about the totalitarian regimes of pre-1945 Japan.

Having said all of this, I enjoy the society of Japanese people. They are very polite and generous, just like people in Alabama. Which brings me to your last comment. I would rather raise my children in Ga (where I currently live). The people are nicer, more polite, more generous, more humble, and not given to the pseudo tolerance I witness in Oregonians or Washingtonians.

Finally, other societies that are successful, are successful based largely on the philosophy described above. We gave Japan American government and American/European science. Whether Europe likes it or not, what success they had in the past was due primarily to Enlightenment ideals.

[oneighty]

43. Your Japan visit

sounds to be restricted to a very limited view of Japanese culture and religion.

IMHO.

180

[jpgray]

46. Your comments on the "Dark Ages" are, ironically, very ignorant. (nt)

[Cheswick2.0]

155. would you like to show some proof or at least discuss that opinion?

I thought his comments on the dark ages were rather enlightening.

[Swede]

26. Wake up dude. The industrialized world has freedom of relegion too.

Yet Europe,Canada,New Zealand,Australia,Japan etc are all seeing decreasing numbers in organized relegion. Listen to the leaders of those countries and you won't see them evoking God every second word.

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[Blue_Chill]

44. Do you notice the fact you speak of us religious persons

like some sort of annoyance you are forced to put up with?

I find that offensive.

[jsw_81]

49. Well

I find it offensive when your fundamentalist cousins try to get your mythology taught as fact in science class. And I find it extremely offensive when you guys attack gays and a woman's right to choose simply because your silly old book (allegedly) says that such things are naughty. And I definitely find it offensive when fanatical religionists crash airliners into skyscrapers because an invisible man in the sky told them to do so.

[Blue_Chill]

54. You want to play the guilty by association game? Ok then I'll play

I find it offensive when your fundamentalist cousins try to get your mythology taught as fact in science class.

I take offense when your extremist atheist cousins decide to SLAUGHTER religious person everytime they've tasted power.

And I find it extremely offensive when you guys attack gays and a woman's right to choose simply because your silly old book (allegedly) says that such things are naughty.

I find it extremely offensive that "you guys" kill the religious or ban religion every chance you've had in history. "You guys" historically or savage murderers.

And I definitely find it offensive when fanatical religionists crash airliners into skyscrapers because an invisible man in the sky told them to do so.

Amazingly I find that offensive as well, wow we have something in common. I'm just wish both of us didn't behave like Klans men and group everyone together into pathetic broad brush attacks.

[jsw_81]

69. Who has ever been killed in the name of atheism?

Yes, the Soviet and Chinese atheists killed millions, but it was because those people resisted their brand of Communism, not atheism. And most of them just starved to death.

IIRC, a few thousand people (possibly more) were killed by fanatical atheists during the French Revolution, but I don't think they were killed in the name of atheism.

Religionists on the other hand, have killed millions in the name of their countless One True Religion(s) and the slaughter continues at this very moment. Not to mention all the sick "customs" and "traditions" they support (e.g. mutiliating young females, cutting children with knives, torturing animals to appease the "spirits" etc).

[Blue_Chill]

85. You telling me when these mighty Atheist leaders

decided religion had to go, no one resisted? Hell in China TODAY their atheism is forced violently with jail or death when any religion grows and makes the tolerent wise athiests nervous.

But I know the atheist web sites gave you that argument you just used, I've seen it myself. Sadly it's crap.

[starroute]

163. It don't think China tries to control religion because of atheism

It's more that over thousands of years of history, the downfall of most Chinese dynasties has begun with popular discontent expressing itself through religious movements -- and the current Chinese dynasty is very aware that the same could happen to them.

When governments get into the business of deciding which expressions of faith to endorse and which to suppress, the motivation is almost invariably political and not religious. Real religion has amazingly little to do with politics.

[Blue_Chill]

180. Excuses

"real" religion has everything to do with politics. That is why it's so very important it be driven out before establishing a communist utopia. Wouldn't want that utopia ruined by organized churches demanding rights (re: black civil rights movement)

[starroute]

199. "Organized churches" are not where real religion is to be found

Real religion is only in people's hearts. Surely you're not going to argue about that? It isn't in buildings or in objects or in organizations or in belief-systems.

Religion does get tangled up with politics at times. Religious people who feel called to address the visible failings of the world might choose a political means of doing so. The external trappings of religion may become a rallying-point for oppressed peoples, or provide a source of organization when more obvious forms of political activity have been banned. But those things are historical accidents.

Perhaps the clearest way I can say it is that real religion (of which there is very little these days) is capable of generating many useful by-products -- great works of art and music, subtle philosophical systems, mass social movements and migrations of peoples. But none of those things are in themselves religion. And if they get caught up in political disputes, that is a matter of their worldly expression and not of their religious origins.

In that sense, the institutions which we generally call "religions" are just one more by-product. They are not sacred or innately spiritual. They are a human attempt to express that which is beyond expression, and subject to all the natural limitations of human endeavor.

[Blue_Chill]

201. Real religion is found many places, one of which is organized

Sometimes you need organization to create change that is why they exist. Sometimes these organizations are used for good and sometimes they are most certainly misused. They are human made like all others and are subject to the same corruptions as any other.

[Muddleoftheroad]

130. "Silly old book"

I love it when the Godless go out of their way to offend anyone who has religious beliefs. Soooooooo tolerant.

[Cheswick2.0]

154. "you guys attack gays and womens right to choose"

are you talking about me? I think you might want to search some of my posts on those topics.

[Swede]

53. I don't know what you are talking about. Read my post again.

I find it offensive when other people force me to put up with their beliefs. By the way I am a Christian.

[Blue_Chill]

55. You should read it again

and look for the tone you used.

BTW - if you are a christian why exactly do you want the numbers of believers to dwindle? I call bullshit.

[Swede]

63. Read my post again. I said ORGANIZED relegion.

Or do I have to send money to Rome to get into heaven?

[Blue_Chill]

64. You don't have to send money but misreprsenting others won't get you there

I'm Catholic and I don't send money to Rome. You think you intolerence for those that choose to worship differently then yourself is going to get you into heaven?

[Swede]

65. I still don't know what your going on about. Read my post one more time.

Please.

[Blue_Chill]

66. I did

and I told you, I find your anti-religious tone to be at best suspect at worst harmful.

[Swede]

68. Ok, I said organized relegion is declining in the Industrial world.

And the leaders there didn't feel they had to prattle on about their beliefs. This is healthy,this is progress,this is an educated society. Render onto Ceasar what is Ceasar's I read somewhere.

[Blue_Chill]

88. Render unto ceaser has nothing to do with wishing decline

on organized religion. Just thought you should know that.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

100. Hey, Blue_Chill....why don't you "chill" on this topic already?...

I come to DU on a daily basis to discuss politics and current events.

If I want to discuss religion I will do so somewhere far more suited to the discussion.

[Blue_Chill]

105. Did I start the thread?

If you want to discuss only politics then don't click on religious threads.

How about that?

kthxbye

[Swede]

108. I know it means seperate church and state.

Perhaps you should read the bible

[Blue_Chill]

119. It does not mean speration of church and state

What it does mean is the business of goverment has nothing to do with ones faith. Stating it means seperation is taking it too far. But you are right for the most part.

I'd be interested in discussing more with you though, you say you are not into organized religion. Does that mean you have your own interpretations of the bible? I do and I rarely find non literalists to discuss them with.

Would you be interested in such a discussion?

[Solomon]

147. I would be happy to engage you in the discussion. I didn't see any

offensive "tone" in Swede's posts. I was practically raised in the church. Not just sunday, but choir rehearsals on monday, prayer meetings on tuesday, bible class on wednesday, etc., all most everyday of the week. I have also concluded that organized religion, while maybe at one time necessary to mankind's development, is now detrimental to development. It short-circuits thinking and always leads to the masses supporting wars. While the moneygrubbers want war to fill their coffers, they use religion to fool the masses into going along with it. I for one, am sick of it.
When I hear ministers using Jesus Christ to justify war it makes me want to hurl.

[Muddleoftheroad]

149. Organized religion

Saying organized religion is "now detrimental to development," is a horrendous stereotype. You miss the hundreds of thousands of hours of good works that churches, synogogues and mosques do all the time. You miss the homeless shelters, the food banks, the hospitals, the clinics, etc.

You have bought into propaganda my friend.

[Cheswick2.0]

153. actually many of those countries are seeing increased religious

activity. Many of the welfare state nations in europe have or recently had state religions.

[Hamlette]

37. people who believe the founding fathers were religious. . .

are missing the point of history. Our country was founded on the principles of the age or reason and the enlightenment. Had nothing to do with religion...had to do with investing the power in the people, not kings or the church. Hello?

We've had a few periods of religious revival, notably in the 1820s and 1830s when new religions were springing up all over. It was called the "Second Great Awakening" (2nd because there had been one 100 years earlier) and was a reaction to the French Revolution and deism. It is also known as the "shopkeepers millennium" because shopkeeps wanted to use hard work, avoiding sin and a lack of independence to control the new worker. The previous independent artisans needed taming, religion was the way to do it.

This current "Awakening" (don't cha just love it?) is influenced by the growth of fundamentalism in all three monotheistic religions (translation: the fundies here are just like the fundies there, yep, the ones who blew up the twin towers). Fundamentalism is an effort to merge the mythos (knowledge based on myth) and the logos (knowledge based on science). Fundamentalists say it is the same thing, the myths (religion) can withstand the same scientific scrutiny as science. Where there is a conflict (like carbon dating) fundamentalists believe science is wrong.

Fundamentalists (and their not as dangerous 2nd cousins, evangelicals) gained political power when Reagan developed the southern strategy. To gain the south he had to get the religious extremists on board. Of course, say what you will about Reagan, the evangelicals believed he had just used them. Took their votes but did not fight for their beliefs. Bush the elder thought they would abandon him and played up to them at the 1992 convention. Bush II is either as radical as they are or is playing them more wisely (he is the president of big business, it doesn't matter if he gives the judiciary to religious fanatics. It is not a principled stand unless you believe business will save the world.)

If they had never been given such a big voice in our government, they would not be such a presence. Also note that religious fanaticism comes from the bible belt in the US and other southern climes all over the world are more religious than their northern neighbors. They are also not as progressive or as industrious. If you are poor, religion gives you hope. What better way to keep 'em down on the farm? And if you live a life of slavery or poverty can you blame them that they bank on a better afterlife?

[Blue_Chill]

45. You don't know what you are talking about

What better way to keep 'em down on the farm?

I don't know what dumb atheist group, website, or other form of information mislead you to belive religion keeps the poor from revolting but you've been lied to. There is a reason why the first thing dictators tend to do is remove organized religions. It's because the major religions encourage fighting for your rights to live in peace. Moses did what? The Pope did what concerning communism? There are countless examples.

I don't know why some of you feel so enlightned on the subject when your sources are obviously bias and typically wrong.

[Hamlette]

87. don't know what I'm talking about?

"It's because the major religions encourage fighting for your rights to live in peace."

And you wonder why we have some animosity towards religion? The only rights relgions are fighting for now is the right to hate others.

Oh yeah, one other thing, no dumb atheist group or website misled me into thinking anything. You seem to assume that because I don't believe in your religion I can't/don't think for myself.

I'm willing to let anyone believe anything they want until they start telling me what to do. Which is usually telling me who to hate.

What a long way we have come from Jesus.

[Muddleoftheroad]

131. Hate?

"The only rights relgions are fighting for now is the right to hate others."

You need to read up on the thousands of good deeds religions do each and every day. Every group in the world has people who hate, but most religions provide love and good deeds.

As for hating, based on your comment, you have a lock on that.

[Solomon]

150. Why do religious people assume that anyone critical of religion

hates? Religion short-circuits critical thinking. One thing I noticed about very religious people is that they won't read anything that doesn't fit their ideals. Muddle talks about all the good things religion has done. No mention of the horrible terrible history of organized religion. I wonder how they would feel if they had to live from the 14th century through the 18th? A period when a mere accusation from a jealous neighbor could lead to the worst torture ever imagined by man? All in the name of God. If we are now enlightened enough to now know that this is wrong, why can't we see that it's also wrong to try to "convert" people?

Religion keeps poor people from revolting against the rich. Every advance by mankind was bitterly resisted and fought by organized religion. Poor Galileo was excommunicated and humiliated for just announcing a fact. Copernicus wouldn't release his information for twenty years because of religious persecution. You would think that having been shown to have been wrong so many times in the past, religious people might consider that they could be wrong now on some issues. But Nooooo. The short-circuit of the brain prevents them from seeing the faults of organized religion.

And I find it offensive for religious people to assume someone is atheist if they don't believe as they do. I'm not an atheist and was raised in the church. But God gave me a brain and I'm not afraid to use it or look where others fear to look.

[Muddleoftheroad]

158. Maybe because I read his post

Hamlette: "And you wonder why we have some animosity towards religion? The only rights relgions are fighting for now is the right to hate others."

As for the rest, not only religion, but nations, peoples and individuals have a pretty rotten history IN THE PAST. We are alas talking about the present. Organizations and things evolve and have done so.

Now about conversion, why is it wrong if the person wishes to convert?

[Hamlette]

191. in the past?

Northern Ireland, September 11, gays are an abomination, Isreal/Palestine, America's "cultural" war, India/Pakistan...name me one major conflict in the world today that does not have a "hate your neighbor" theme to it based on religious beliefs?

I recognize that it is as much cultural and tribal as anything else but if you want to take credit, in the name of religion, for the good things man does you have to also take blame for the bad things done in the name of religion.

My line "And you wonder why we have some animosity towards religion? The only rights relgions are fighting for now is the right to hate others." was in direct response to the prior poster who accused me of listening to "some dumb atheist group or website" and who said: "the major religions encourage fighting for your rights to live in peace."

Fight indeed. This is so far from the teachings of Christ I can't see how you get there. When you fight for "your" rights it is always at the expense of someone elses. People use religion to rally the troops. I find it unfathonable that people continue to defend religions which "encourage fighting" after what those religious warriors did on September 11.

Christ didn't encourage fighting. I try to follow the teachings of Christ which is a far cry from most people who call themselves Christian do.

Believe those who seek the truth, doubt those who find it.

[Muddleoftheroad]

194. Rights and wrongs

No, when you fight for your rights, you get them. It doesn't mean someone else loses out.

Yes, the conflicts of today in the world are mostly factional tribal and only use religion by a few who try to use it for their own aims. That is not religion, it's politics that wraps itself in religion.

[Cheswick2.0]

156. except you started with misinformation

the majority of the founders of this country were very religious. They also argued and debated about church and state. They finally concluded that there should be separation to protect each denomination from the other and all from the state. Only Franklin called himself a deist. The others generally attended weekly services.

[PassingFair]

214. Jefferson did not

Neither, pointedly, did the father of our country, the most esteemed 1st President, George Washing ton.

[PassingFair]

213. OK, Blue Chill...

Just WHAT did Moses do...There is not one iota of evidence that indicates that "Moses" ever existed. I could as easily say "Look what Thor did for naval exploration". It's time for America and Americans to grow up.
America is more religious than other modernized countries because the ethos of capitalism has made us a nation of hypocrites. Others go hungry or suffer and little capitalist piggies can sing about how good they are in church once a week. Sometimes even implying that they don't suffer the slings and arrows of fate because they're SO GOOD! Don't kid yourself that militarization isn't what will follow this "wellspring" of faith. GOTT MITT UNS!
Yech!

[Merlin]

207. Good post, Hamlette. Why do you think Deism died?

Not only has Deism--which was God seen through the eyes of the rational thinker--passed away, but the enlightenment itself is under assault by the Straussian neocons, and the concept of self government is facing perhaps its biggest challenge in the face of the development of a media--TV--which has the power to literally brainwash people and cause them to vote against their own best interests.

It seems to me the world experienced one grand, glorious, productive burst of rational thinking, found it required too much continued thought--way too high maintenance for free peoples--and gave it up again for the mythologies of their ancestors.

[muriel_volestrangler]

210. deism isn't a self-perpetuating meme

unlike true religions, it doesn't demand any behaviour (like telling others 'the good news') from its believers. This leaves it very vulnerable to advancing science. It looks to me as if it died out not long after American Independence - around the time that geology and biology developed as sciences.

[Merlin]

217. Deism was/is the "religion" of scientists.

Einstein, for example, was one.

[Name removed]

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[Classical_Liberal]

57. This is false

most of them were deists.

[Cheswick2.0]

157. no most of them were christians

only Franklin called himself a desist. You might want to gather your information somewhere besides deist.com.

[Blue_Chill]

50. now THAT was an amazing statement

You start off with "How incredibly arrogant of this wank" and finish with the AMAZINGLY ARROGANT statement "You are impeding the intellectual progress of the human race." obviously speaking of us lowly idiots that still belive in God.

Nice.

[jsw_81]

52. I'm curious

Which god do you believe in? Religionists have worshipped roughly 10,000 of them (not to mention all the goddesses) since civilization began, and they creating new ones all the time. It really is kind of hard to keep track of all of 'em.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jsw_81]

71. No no no

Religionists are people who follow a religion. The word is not at all comparable to words like "wetback" or "spic." I'm sorry that you aren't familiar with the term.

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

110. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Blue_Chill]

120. You are taking that a little far

but you are right I'm not playing nice. However some of the people I am "chatting with" have a long history of insults that went unchallenged for a long time here. I ended that.

[Muddleoftheroad]

132. The Godless

It's so cute when the atheists try to make a new, quasi-scientific term for the rest of us who believe in God.

[A HERETIC I AM]

125. ARE you a lowly idiot? if not, stop with the soapboxing....(rant)

If you arent, then what are you complaining about? Secularists have been dragging the faithful forward tooth and nail for centuries. From Galileo to the current arguments of placing so called "Intelligent design theory" in science textbooks, Freethinkers and progressives have moved mankind forward. George Carlin said: "The only good thing to come out of religion was the music" I add, architecture and maybe some literature.
BTW...since you are Catholic, if you want to believe that the all powerful, all knowing, omnibenevolent creator diety of all the known universe and all the life forms in it is an invisible jewish fella that lives in the sky, more power to you. If your faith in god makes you a better person then i am happy for you and i am all for it. However, the history of religious faith in the common era demonstrates the contrary. Kindness and acceptance of discord and heresy is CERTAINLY not a strong point in the faiths of the god of Abraham. That history is SOAKED in the blood of countless humans and, as another poster said, has done as much to teach hate among mankind as it has taught love. Look....I was raised Episcopalian. I wanted to believe all that stuff and i did, for a long time. But i came to realize that hoping there is a loving, kind, gentle old WHITE GUY that knows everything and will be there to comfort me when i die is just childish, arrogant, racist, nonsensical, narrowminded wishful thinking. I also learned that the story of a saviour god born on the winter solstice and killed in the spring equinox is a tale repeated dozens and dozens of times thruout the millenia. It is a play. A "Passion Play. An allegory for the movement of the sun through the heavens and the seasons. Nothing more. The story of Jesus is not original. It is rehashed ancient allegory and myth.

"When you realize why you know the gods of the Greeks and the Romans are mythical, then you will know why i think the same of your god" and also this: there is something on the order of 2000 gods that have been created by mankind. You disregard 1999 of those. I just disregard one more than you do.

[Muddleoftheroad]

133. History

History is soaked in blood -- not just religions, but nations, peoples, individuals, etc. Mankind has a bloody history. To single out religions and blame them is a misrepresentation at best.

You mention that, "the story of a saviour god born on the winter solstice and killed in the spring equinox is a tale repeated dozens and dozens of times thruout the millenia." Perhaps, you might think that something that crosses that many cultures might also have a foundation in fact.

Oh, and by the way, my God is neither white nor black nor Asian. My God is simply God and all and none of those things.

And I disregard NO gods. I believe that to pray to a God is the same thing no matter what name you call that God.

[LeahMira]

137. Only in America...

Mankind has a bloody history. To single out religions and blame them is a misrepresentation at best.

Mankind tends to use dogmatic belief to "justify" its bloodletting.

You mention that, "the story of a saviour god born on the winter solstice and killed in the spring equinox is a tale repeated dozens and dozens of times thruout the millenia." Perhaps, you might think that something that crosses that many cultures might also have a foundation in fact.

Or it could mean that the cultures borrowed from one another. Many other religious cultures not originating in the Middle East have no "savior." Wise men and prophets, perhaps. But why does anyone need someone to "save" them?

Only in America, a still-free nation, do some people deliberately let some others tell them what to think. Turn off the TV, and take time to think about things for yourself!

[Muddleoftheroad]

143. I do think for myself

And I AM religious.

[A HERETIC I AM]

174. History revisited (bit of a rant again) sorry...

Muddleoftheroad said: "History is soaked in blood -- not just religions, but nations, peoples, individuals, etc. Mankind has a bloody history. To single out religions and blame them is a misrepresentation at best."

I agree completely, and you are correct, it IS a misrepresentation to characterize ALL bloodletting as religious in nature. But I didnt do that. What I said was "The HISTORY OF RELIGION IN THE COMMON ERA was soaked in blood". This is a fact that cannot be denied. Has there been bloodshed for other reasons? Of course. But if you look at the major wars up to the present day, religion always played a part. Many times, a MAJOR part. Adolf Hitler was CONVINCED he was doing gods work and Josef Stalin was raised orthodox and did little more than what was typical.

You said: "You mention that, "the story of a saviour god born on the winter solstice and killed in the spring equinox is a tale repeated dozens and dozens of times thruout the millenia." Perhaps, you might think that something that crosses that many cultures might also have a foundation in fact".

Yes! Correct! The foundation for it is that EVERYONE on the planet can see the path the sun makes through skies and the seasons. Stories of a "Saviour god" are a motif that is familiar to many, if not most ancient cultures thruout the world. IT IS ALLEGORY!!!!

You also said: "Oh, and by the way, my God is neither white nor black nor Asian. My God is simply God and all and none of those things."

That is all well and good. If your perception of the almighty is not of the anthropomorphic variety then I applaud you. You have a point of view that is somewhat more enlightened. But the fact remains, if you ask the average White American xtian what comes into his/her mind when they picture god in their heads, they will invariably think of an older, bearded WHITE man with long flowing robes. This is cultural, not historical or factual.

And finally, this: "And I disregard NO gods. I believe that to pray to a God is the same thing no matter what name you call that God."

Also fair enough. But if your belief is grounded in any of the faiths of the god of Abraham, then at the MOST you see god as one in three. I bet you dont pray to Venus to make your love life better, then pray to Bacchus to get more wine and then pray to Mercury in order to be fleet of foot. The fact is, you DO disregard hundreds of gods unless you believe in a pantheon of them. 3 is not a pantheon. 3 is 2 short of a Basketball team.

Last thing; I am not "Anti Religion." What i am is anti ignorance. The powers that be in religion business have a vested interest in keeping their flock in the dark as to the TRUE origins of the myths. If folks actually KNEW that Jesus and Moses were not real people and that the stories they tell you are actually based in antiquity as opposed to the time frame in which they are couched, people might stop tithing and doing what they are told. And then the Mullahs and the Priests and the Pastors and the Rabbi's and the Clerics would all have to get real jobs. And they just cant have that.

[Muddleoftheroad]

177. Ah "myths," the attack from the Godless

The history of EVERYTHING of any note in mankind is a history of blood. Again, mankind is soaked in blood and you can't separate out religion from that.

No, just because many cultures have the same story does NOT make it allegory. It makes it common. Why would God be limited to sending his son to earth only once? Maybe once per culture. Who knows? I am not God. I know what I believe. You are entitled to believe something else.

I don't care that some Christians, "invariably think of an older, bearded WHITE man with long flowing robes." So what? some black folks invariably think of God as black. That is human nature.

I don't pray to Venus, but I don't deny others the pleasure nor do I mock them nor do I think them wrong. I believe my religion is right for me and that's pretty damn good. And I don't need to field of basketball team of gods. Life is not the NBA.

You show your true colors at the very last by calling my beliefs (and those of billions of others) "myths." That is by far one of the most offensive things you can say about the beliefs of another -- not that you seem to care.

[A HERETIC I AM]

203. OK OK OK!!!! TRUCE!!!! lol....allow me to try and make a bit of peace

Blue Chill and Muddleoftheroad have both made comments that I should address, but, alas, this could take all month! All I ask is that they both go back and read my posts again carefully.

The references about god being perceived as a white guy were made SPECIFICALLY to comment on white, Christian America and of course I concede that other races and other cultures have differing perceptions of the divine. The comment regarding the basketball team was an attempt to be a smarty pants. Levity. I am sorry you missed it and of course, life isn’t the NBA. I never said it was nor did I infer it. Your statement that you don’t "Pray to Venus nor deny others the pleasure", missed my point. The point I was trying to make with that passage was in response to the statement "And I disregard NO gods. I believe that to pray to a God is the same thing no matter what name you call that God" If you disregard no gods then you have faith that a true pantheon exists. If it is your opinion that there is no such pantheon and just the father, son and holy ghost, then you DO disregard many hundreds of gods and therefore the gods of many OTHER billions of people.

Blue Chill said I was "Pro Atheist" and that "I was no better then Falwell or any other extremist nut that views all other schools of thought to be less then his own." I must concede this point. You are correct. But, unlike Falwell, I don’t condemn anyone to eternal torture if they do not toe my line. Being called a nut isn’t particularly pleasant, but hey, I am "Godless" and otherwise marginalized by society at large because i (like some 30 million other Americans) am non-religious. If I am a nut, then I have some tremendous company. Thank you. I shall wear that moniker with pride.

Muddle took issue (as did others) with my suggesting that the story of the savior had mythical roots. Well, on this one i stand my ground. That motif and its accompanying parables have precedents all over the ancient world LONG before the supposed advent of Christ. Does the story offer good lessons on life? Undeniably yes. Is it a story we should all listen to? Yes. Is it something that all mankind can learn something from? Again, of course. Does it make sense in the context which I presented? Yes, it does. Does it represent a real, historical event? No. Sorry, it doesn’t. There is not one single verifiable shred of evidence that indicates a man named Jesus the Christ EVER existed in the Levant at the supposed time of his advent NOR any other time before or since. There are so many flaws and holes in the biblical tale of the life of Christ that it is rendered an unreliable historical document. All the supposed evidence is either contradicted, been shown to be made up or false and/or spurious or complete fabrication and forgery. Of course, the church doesn’t want you to know this, and as such, information like it is suppressed or marginalized. "Of course Jesus was a real person, how could you POSSIBLY think otherwise?" is pretty much the mindset.

Unfortunately, many folks who hold strong religious beliefs tend to react strongly when statements are made that are uncomfortable or distasteful to them. Pointing out a flaw or a historical bone of contention is not an attack, any more than asking Judge Moore to remove his stone from the courthouse was an "Attack on god" as many in the media have said. It is merely what it is.

Again, let me say this: If holding the convictions that you do makes you a better person, helps you through life and assists you mentally or comforts you then I am ALL FOR IT! If you feel I have belittled your faith because of my opinions of things religious then I humbly apologize. It was not my intention to insult or put down believers, rather I wished to express my position and by doing so, add to the discussion. You don’t have to agree with me by any means.

Just think. 250 years ago I would have been burned at the stake for saying most of what I have said.

I'll just shut up now.

[LeahMira]

227. "Godless" is not an attack?

No, just because many cultures have the same story does NOT make it allegory. It makes it common.

It makes it common to those peoples that originated in the same area of the world.

I don't care that some Christians, "invariably think of an older, bearded WHITE man with long flowing robes." So what? some black folks invariably think of God as black. That is human nature.

You should care. It is very limiting to imagine one's god as similar to oneself. And while those Black folk who have been exposed to Christianity may well imagine the Christian god as black, those who are not exposed to Christianity do not imagine any such individual.

I believe my religion is right for me and that's pretty damn good.

Fine. Then you also need to understand that those who have no religion believe that's best for them.

You show your true colors at the very last by calling my beliefs (and those of billions of others) "myths."

First of all, it doesn't matter how many billions of people believe something. Billions of people have been incredibly wrong from time to time. And if you object to the term "myth" then substitute "legend" or "traditional story" and understand that every culture has these, in part to tell themselves who they are as a people and in part to record the history of the people... with other elements thrown in here and there.

There is fact and there is truth. Is it a fact that Jesus turned a few loaves of bread and a few fish into enough food to feed a large crowd of people? Nope. It is true that something extraordinary happened that day? Sure. If you care to find out what it was, I suggest you read the story with a spiritual frame of mind and not with a religious frame of mind.

[muriel_volestrangler]

228. 'Godless' is no more of an attack than 'liberal'

I'm quite happy to be called godless. In fact, I hold that everyone is, because I don't think you can create a god by believing.

[Muddleoftheroad]

230. No, it is an accurate word choice

If you don't believe in God, you are Godless. How is that not accurate?

Sorry, I still don't care how people envision God. You haven't convinced me I need to, either.

I don't mind that those who have no religion believe so. More power to them. But when they use that position to attack me with words or actions, then I care.

Yes, I object to the term "myth" and I won't substitutde "legend" or "traditional story." They are beliefs. You can no more prove there is no God than I can prove there is. It is belief.

As for loaves and fishes, you don't know what happened that day. Neither do I. I know what I believe.

[A HERETIC I AM]

241. Thankyouthankyouthankyou LeahMira thank you!!!

Well said and thanks for the backup. Thanks

[Blue_Chill]

242. What's the matter can't take what you dish out?

You should care. It is very limiting to imagine one's god as similar to oneself. And while those Black folk who have been exposed to Christianity may well imagine the Christian god as black, those who are not exposed to Christianity do not imagine any such individual.

hmm no here we have a odd statement. First you tell us that we should care about how others choose to see things. Perhaps you feel we should force those damn whities to see a black Jesus or perhaps a purple one? You completely fail to see human nature working in the background here, in that each individual is seeing Jesus like himself.

Then you state "Black folk that have been exposed to Christianity" like whitie ran about exposing people to some disease. In reality of course white himself was "exposed" just as millions of people from every backgorund on the planet. You see Christianity didn't originate in western Europe.

First of all, it doesn't matter how many billions of people believe something. Billions of people have been incredibly wrong from time to time.

Yet you believe yourself to right, and not just right but so damn right that you support those that insult and attack the religious on this board. Interesting......

And if you object to the term "myth" then substitute "legend" or "traditional story" and understand that every culture has these, in part to tell themselves who they are as a people and in part to record the history of the people... with other elements thrown in here and there.

I think it's fairly obvious that the problem isn't the term itself but how it is being thrown in our faces. You knew that of course but decided to play dumb and try to make it seem as if you are merely being logical.


There is fact and there is truth. Is it a fact that Jesus turned a few loaves of bread and a few fish into enough food to feed a large crowd of people? Nope.

Ah yes this is the "we are right you are confused part" of the anti-theist preaching. Same shit we've been hearing from satanists for decades. Same song different singer.

[A HERETIC I AM]

243. Blue Chill?..do you actually know ANYTHING ABOUT THE HISTORY OF

YOUR RELIGION? i am not talking about YOUR FAITH...not you....just the history of christianity? Do you know anything? If you think you know anything at all, just answer these four simple questions since you seem to think that

" - Christianity didn't originate in western Europe."

Question 1)
Was Jesus Christ a Christian?
Question 2)
When was the first gospel written? (hint - it was The Gospel ACCORDING to Mark) And any time period give or take 50 years will suffice. Dont cheat and use google. Just tell us what you KNOW.
Question 3)
Who wrote the 4 canonical gospels?
Hint; all is not as it seems
Question 4)
What day is Easter on?

[Blue_Chill]

246. response

1 - You are asking me if Jesus wanted to be more like himself?

2 - 70-75 AD

3 - Could be anonymous could be the names currently accepted. Could be something else entirely.

4 - depending on your view it could be a day on a calender that changes year to year or just about every sunday


Question for you - did you know the worship of man i.e. Humanism is amazingly close to another religion realted to Christianity? Can you name it?

[A HERETIC I AM]

252. you score a"D+" ...1 out of 4 correct

1 - You are asking me if Jesus wanted to be more like himself?
No, i asked if Jesus was a Christian. Any student of the bible would answer "NO! Jesus was a Jew" There was no such thing as a christian then. That's one wrong.
2 - 70-75 AD
Correct! seventy to seventy five years AFTER Jesus supposedly lived. 75 YEARS. Long time. Do you actually think it was a verbatim account?
3 - Could be anonymous could be the names currently accepted. Could be something else entirely.
This one i would call a serious hedge. Everything i have ever read that discussed authorship of the Gospels suggests that the authors are anonymous or the texts are amalgamations or interpretations of earlier texts. That's two wrong.
4 - depending on your view it could be a day on a calender that changes year to year or just about every sunday
WRONG! Easter is ALWAYS the 1st sunday AFTER the 1st full moon AFTER the Spring Equinox. Sounds kinda Pagan, doesnt it?
THAT'S CAUSE IT IS!!!!


Question for you - did you know the worship of man i.e. Humanism is amazingly close to another religion realted to Christianity? Can you name it?

Your lack of understanding regarding Humanism and the Humanistic point of view is astounding. There is not one single "Secular Humanist" on the planet that "Worships" Man. This is an example of the height of ignorance. As far as the answer to your question goes, i will answer.

I have no idea what you are referring to.
That was pretty simple, wasnt it?
I didnt know, and i said so.

[Blue_Chill]

185. History spinning! Nice.

1- Yes there has been bloodshed in religious history. But compare it too secular rule (Russia China) and the percentage of bloodshed is much less. By your great method of reading history one would think that secular rule always results in mass death. Then let's look at natural resources, they have led to countless war, how about land - again more war. Politics, war again. Yay war war war.

What the points folks? HUMANS ARE VIOLENT!!!!!!

2- If you ask a xtian american....... What the hell is this meant to prove? If you ask me, a hispanic american, Jesus is a little brown guy and god has no form. Again WTF is your point?

3- Last thing you are not "anti-ignorance" you are "pro-atheism" no better then Falwell or any other extremist nut that views all other schools of thought to be less then his own.

[Solomon]

151. Damn Heretical. Well done. Well said. You have indeed done

your homework. Some of us ultra religious people (I was practically raised in the church) were sooo religious that we went searching after the truth. We couldn't get enough of it. And when you do, you discover that it's all based upon the stars and the heavenly bodies. Every bit of it. Which is why all other cultures around the world have the same stories. There was a time when the stars were ultra important. They told us when to plant, when to hunt, when to harvest, etc. In today's times, you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who came name even one star, let alone two.

Also people don't understand that earlier cultures communicated by sign language. They didn't have alphabets with fancy words, thus for example, a picture of a frog did not mean they worshipped frogs, but when the frogs appeared, they knew that something else was about to happen, like the Nile flooding for example.

It seems to me, it is the MOST religious people who seek the answers beyond the bible. For a lot of other people, the buck stops right at the bible. Then they fight anyone who has gone beyond the bible because it threatens the cocoon it gives them. As I'm often told by my fundie family - "if you don't believe the bible is perfectly true, what do you believe in"? They just can't imagine not having the safety of the one book to rely on. They might have to think too hard and they can't make sense out of anything if there's no big white man up in the sky to make sense out of it.

[Blue_Chill]

176. Are you a arrogant bigot?

You like to pretend as if the secular among us are responisble for all that is good while the religious strive to destroy all you have worked so hard to build. A simple review of history shows that not to be the case.

The truth is, not that you seem to care for truth, as that within any group of mankind there can be found good elements and bad. The true sign of a bigot is that they refuse to accept that a particular group has any good at all, like your post just implied.

You mention the same old cookie cutter argument I see from every angry atheist. "Blood soaked" "WHITE GUY" Both of these are just plain stupid, one history is blood soaked for many reasons, some religious, some political, some concernign land, and some just because leaders felt their people needed something to keep them from revolting. As for "WHITE GUY" I guess you went to a white church, but if you had actually thought about it you would have realised Jesus is changed to relate to the culture of churches. It is of little concern what he actually looked like, only anti-theists harp about such crap.

Now you got anything to say I haven't seen written a thousand times on the internet or are you going to simpley repeat the same old crap like everyone else?

[mmonk]

17. the spread of fundamentalism

and/or "born agains" which started here in the 19th century. The US population besides being religious hasn't been an informative place intellectually for quite a while. Black and white answers for a mostly insulated public.

[redbill]

21. This makes no sense

This makes no sense. What proof do you have for such an inane answer?

[mmonk]

138. You'll need to qualify your response

on why you think this is inane. The country has always had religious people. Many came here to escape persecution from state endorsed religions. The people that had the most influence of the creation and make up of our democracy, seemed to be children of the enlightenment though. So here, those of the enlightenment and those that were devoutly religious lived primarily together happily (except the years of the "Know Nothings" and the "Aliens and Sedition Act") until the 19th century during the Civil War era and beyond.

The rise of fundamentalism saw a rise in conflict between church and state issues. Whether it be conflicts about slavery or the Scopes Monkey Trials or prohibition. It has stayed with us in one form or another ever since.

I'm interested in a studied reply to this opinion.

[starroute]

24. US Protestantism is far more democratic than European state religions

In Europe, through the 18th and 19th centuries, there continued to be official state churches that were very tightly bound up with the political establishment -- and that gave people strong reason to shy off from church-going and look skeptically at religion in general.

In the US, on the other hand, there were a multitude of Protestant sects. People could choose what church they wanted to belong to, and most of the churches themselves had a relatively democratic, self-governing form of organization. The churches were not elitist, not tied in with the political establishment, and not at odds with the growing tide of democracy in the 19th and early 20th century.

I think that is why religion has retained such a hold over American -- it's not a matter of faith, but of politics.

Now, of course, things are changing. The fundamentalist churches in particular are growing far less democratic -- there was a thread about the Southern Baptist Convention a week or two ago that mentioned this -- and are getting painfully close to the political establishment. I suspect they will wind up being discredited as a result, though it may take a generation or more.

[AG78]

34. Complicated question

And there are probably many answers to that question. But my answer would be Pascal's Wager.

It's tough to think about the fact that if you didn't exist, the world would still keep spinning. Or that if we, as a species, didn't exist, the universe would still be here. People want to live forever.

If you think about it, why do people cry when someone they love dies? Or why would someone like a Jerry Falwell even want to continue to live on this planet? If Heaven is such a great place, why would God put us here? God has to know that human beings couldn't be perfect. He also had to know that Jesus would die. But he didn't really die. Because they tell us that he's alive, and up in heaven. And since heaven is eternal, you can't die. Why do people care if a woman has an abortion? In terms of religion, the baby is alive, but wasn't actually given birth to, so there's no original sin of just simply being born. That's a free ticket upstairs. Right? But the religion discussion can go on forever.

But if you're thinking about that stuff, you've probably let religion go a while ago, or feel that you might soon, because if you're questioning any part of it, then you've already gone against what it says you're supposed to do.

[jsw_81]

51. So true

Why do people care if a woman has an abortion? In terms of religion, the baby is alive, but wasn't actually given birth to, so there's no original sin of just simply being born. That's a free ticket upstairs. Right?

It's funny how so many "pro-lifers" overlook this. If the aborted fetus gets a ticket to paradise, why do they complain about abortion? Shouldn't they be celebrating abortion and even encouraging it? After all, if the baby had been born there's a very good chance that he/she would grow up and become a Jew or a Muslim or even a godless, hellbound atheist like me! :)

But who ever said that fundies were interested in logic?

[Muddleoftheroad]

134. Try some logic yourself

Personally, I am pro-Choice but you might recall that abortion was LEGALLY murder for hundreds of years before it was legal here. Many people still think it murder. As such, they oppose it. Why are you surprised?

[Nikia]

60. Why do neither atheists or fundamentalists understand?

They think that relgion is all about doing exactly what the Bible and/or the Church tells them in order to get to heaven.
That's not what it is about. We were given free will and are expected to use it. The point of true religion is our relationship with God, others, and ourselves.

[Blue_Chill]

61. The first good post I've seen in this thread

well said.

[Swede]

75. Amen.

[A HERETIC I AM]

126. It WAS a good post. Except it assumes all atheists dont understand....

I lack NOTHING spiritually. I dare say i have a better understanding of what "God" is than most so called "Christians" That is mainly why i am not one of them.

on edit...ok, ok ok...i lack several things, spiritually.....like a neat hat.....and the time to lose myself in meditation....but other that that, i am happy with what i have come to learn about spirituality and it's effects on mankind. I understand it's roots and i see its branches very clearly. Mankind will be much better off when it finally sheds it's dark ages superstitions and realizes we are all the same and there is no such thing as a "Chosen" race or a "Saved" group. we are all equal in the cosmos.

[Cheswick2.0]

159. wow complete bullshit in one post

you understand what you don't beleive in better than those that do believe. ROFL

[A HERETIC I AM]

175. Thanks! but how is my bullshit any more outstanding than yours?

And you are correct. I dont "Believe". I prefer knowledge. That ok with you?

[Blue_Chill]

182. I prefer knowledge

No you prefer your way over all others. Just like every other human born fool religious or otherwise. I bet you preach tolerence too concerning other political matters.....I bet you don't see the hypocrisy in that.

[jsw_81]

72. Which god?

Zeus? Allah? Yahweh? Ra? Mars? Jupiter?

[Blue_Chill]

121. Same god

different names.

[muriel_volestrangler]

35. as well as the very religious immigrants

as mentioned in posts above, there's also the theory that disillusionment with religion in Europe started with World War One. About 1 in 8 soldiers were killed in that war (but not for the USA - they lost about 1 in 30). After that, it's not so easy to believe in a beneficent god. Military and civilian deaths in WWII were also far higher in Europe and Japan than the USA. See eg http://www.stephen-stratford.co.uk/remember.htm

[Nikia]

41. True religious freedom is good

Many different religious groups developed in America. A lot of good theology came out of that within a short period of time. Ministers didn't have to worry about "heresy". They could start a sect of their own. People chose what religion to follow. They didn't have to accept a particuliar religion or be non religious. There were many alternatives.
Religion in Europe, with established state relgions, has been fairly stagnent with relatively constant dogma. Although there are now other alternatives in many parts of these countries, people usually are born in the established church and either accept it reject it rather than considering converting to another religion.
It has been my experience that churches in areas where it is not dominant have more sincere believers than where the church is dominant.
Some Christians believe that it is dangerous for Christinaity to be established as the state religion for Christianity's sake. It suggests that there is a correct Chritianity, where as Christians hold a variety of beliefs on different issues, and it also imposes politics into them where as there is often no need for that. It also implies that people would be Christians to be "good " Americans, where as religion is always meant to be a personal choice.
Religion in America has thrived because relgion has been autonomous from government in the past. It should remain autonomous from government for both the sake of people with other and no relgion and Christianity itself. Perhaps, that's the message that we need to spread to relgious people in America.

[Iverson]

59. Puritan roots, anti-intellectual culture

next question?

[Blue_Chill]

62. So religion equates to anti-intellectualism?

That's hate speech.

Next.

[jsw_81]

74. Well

Some religions, especially those of the fundamentalist variety, are DEFINITELY anti-science and anti-intellectual. You simply cannot deny this fact. It is definitely NOT "hate" speech.

[Iverson]

78. wrongo

Also not all baseball players are Detroit Tigers.
Pause before you overreact.

[Blue_Chill]

86. So be clear

and avoid problems all together.

[LeahMira]

140. That's ridiculous!

So religion equates to anti-intellectualism? ... That's hate speech.

[Blue_Chill]

183. OK

thanks for sharing.

[remfan]

70. This is a very long read, but it's really worth the effort

if you're truly interested in how religion has shaped this country.

http://www.wfu.edu/~matthetl/perspectives/Lectures.html

[arewethereyet]

73. did they teach American History where you come from ?

many of the early settlers came here for religeous freedom and more specifically to get away from state sponsored religeous persecution ergo the freedom of religeon and seperation of chuch and state combo pack.

It stuck because it works.

[Lars39]

79. Do you know why they were persecuted? Because they wanted everyone

to be just like them.

[Nikia]

80. Actually, that is false in many cases

If not all cases. State sponsored religions of Europe were very intolerant to even small dissenting religious communities. If you want an example of cases where that was very much not the case, consider the Spanish Inquisition, as well as most of the persecution of European Jews.

[Lars39]

103. The Puritans disapproved of the way the English celebrate holidays

such as Whitsuntide; seems that there was liquor, games, music and bright colors involved. Their disapproval caused such a ruckus, that he issued an order "declaring that Englishmen were not to be 'disturbed or discouraged from dancing, archery, leaping, vaulting, having May games, Whitsun-ales, Morrice dances, setting up May poles, and other sports...or any other harmless recreations, on Sunday,'" after church. King James didn't want to lose control via the Puritans choosing their own ministers. Their wanting everyone to *behave* on the Sabbath didn't endear them to James. :shrug:

[arewethereyet]

83. just not true

still want to be Catholic after Henry wanted his divorce ? screw you ! and the list goes on and on.

so I guess you didn't learn a lot about AmHist where you come from.

[Nikia]

94. You used a bad example

Church of England was established as a state religion. These people did not leave England to escape religious persecution. I gave the example of all non Catholics during the Spanish Inquistion. Jews throughout the continent were persecuted at various times if not almost continously in varying degrees. A good Christian example of a persecuted group that settled in America is the Anabaptist movement (Amish, Mennonites, Hutterites). Quakers did send out missionaries but still were unfairly persecuted for preaching their brand of Christianity against the state religion. I believe that the the Pilgrims were relatively peacable people as well. Regardless, they weren't persecuted because they wanted to dominate. They were persecuted simply for existing.

[arewethereyet]

99. thanks for pointing out that there are a vast array of examples to use

n/t

[Nikia]

97. Sorry, I got you and the other poster confused

After rereading, I realize that you were responding to that poster, not to me. My point was to further emphasize that there were groups persecuted in Europe simply for existing, not trying to dominate like the poster posted.

[arewethereyet]

104. no problem, you're more eloquent and holding better facts than I

n/t

[Fridays Child]

77. Because it's a product that's been marketed to us just like...

...everything else Americans are lured into conspicuously consuming.

Kill your TV.

[Scott Lee]

81. America is only first at wearing "religion" on it's sleeve

I'd really balk at calling it the most "religious" in reality.

The first big cultural lesson I got while traveling and living abroad was that our take in "religion" had all the earmarks of a used car salesman. We love to wear Jesus on our sleeves, trotting out the King of Kings (or pick your favorite spiritual leader) at the drop of a hat to impress people with your holiness and righteousness. And to be frank, it makes me sick.

When I was living and working in Japan I noticed that people tended to be devout Shinto buddhists, but it was devoutness in a way that means you might never notice it. They were so discreet, other than having some public shrines. Not a single Japanese person tried to convert me. Not a single Japanese person even brought up religion or "God". Ironically, the only time some evangelists showed up at my Nogata apartment, they were American trained Jehovah's witnesses!

The late William Burroughs had it right. We are a nation of con artists, selling bullshit elixers like the corrupt quack Dr. Benway sold dope out of his tattered satchel. And religion is no exception as a drug of choice.

[Nikia]

101. Well, Shinto is a Japanese religion

It used to be the state religion before we made them give that up after World War II. Shintoism is based upon the Japanese Emperor being descended from the Goddess. Japanese are rather ethnocentric (for lack of a better word) as a culture. They would not desire you to be Shinto if you aren't Japanese.

[Scott Lee]

116. For "making them give up Shintoism", they sure still adhere to it.

and it really doesn't bother me if they want their own stripe of Buddhaism for themselves - the same as it doesn't bother me if the Cheyenne prefer I (as a non-Cheyenne) not persue their spirit ways.

[forgethell]

84. America is the most religious

because you can join a church, synagogue, etc., that has doctrines that YOU agree with. You are not taxed, like in European countries, to support a church to which you feel no loyalty.

Christians, Jews, Muslim, Buddhists, Hindu, pagans, animists, atheist. We are all free to choose. So, if we choose, we tend to be involved. This is not something that I think we need to copy Europe on, even if it would lead to Dem victories, which is something that I doubt, anyway

[muriel_volestrangler]

95. Which European states

do you think stop people from belonging to the religion they choose to?

[forgethell]

122. None, yet

states that support specific countries include Great Britain and Germany, for example

[Swede]

111. Name one Western country that forces you to choose a relegion?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

114. State churches, then and now

In the old days, having a state church meant that everyone was required to be the same religion as the king. In England, the population got whipsawed between Catholicism, Anglicanism (both during the reign of Henry VIII), Calvinism (the brief reign of Edward VI), back to Catholicism (Mary), and back to Anglicanism (Elizabeth I), which is where the Church of England has stayed, except for a couple of decades of Puritanism in the middle of the seventeenth century. In each case, the people were expected to follow along, and woe unto anyone who couldn't or wouldn't keep up. Puritans left for New England, Catholics left for Maryland, and Quakers left for Pennsylvania.

None of the European countries currently force people to follow a certain religion, BUT those that have state churches tax their citizens to pay for upkeep of buildings and clergy salaries. In some cases, religious instruction is part of the public school curriculum. If you want to opt out of either the church tax or religious instruction in school, you have to petition.

Despite this--or perhaps because of it--religious participation is much lower in Europe than in the U.S.

My take on it is that Europeans are indifferent because they know that the state will keep the churches going. You will find that many of them still have their children baptized and confirmed and are married in and buried from church. They simply don't attend services regularly.

Americans know that the churches will disappear if they don't support them. Because they support churches with their own money, they want to attend one that pleases them. Hence the variety of denominations found in this country.

[muriel_volestrangler]

115. not all state churches get tax funds

for instance, the Church of England gets about half of its money from member donations, and half from investments and property - it was given a lot of the Roman Catholic property in England when it was set up. See http://www.ely.anglican.org/ministry/leaflets/cashflow.html
It also sells the occasional church that hasn't got enough people going to it to be worth keeping open.

[randr]

98. Public radio airways

The creation back in the late 50's early 60's of the public access band on the FM radio spectrum gave radio licenses, along with the grants to build the infrastructure, to hundreds of community and religious organizations. Many of these comprise our public radio and television networks along with hundreds of small community and college stations. Many others became a network of religious broadcasting organizations. Many of the religious broadcasters were able to transform this public asset into a vast empire of wealth, influence, property, thanks to the money they made from their large audiences. The proselytizing of evangelical based faith systems was most effective in building this empire.

[solinvictus]

102. America is religious

The dominant religion in America is the worship of unfettered profits. Free markets and cheap labor are it's core dogma. We've turned into a cargo cult obsessed with consumerism and most people do not care that our cheap goods are bought with someone's suffering.

[Beaker]

109. Because our primary school educational system is so bad.

thats the short answer. The less people know and understand about the world around them, the more susceptible they are to religious myth. If our youth were better educated, they wouldn't grow up believing the fairy tales.
It's a big part of the reason that the repukes are continually trying to stifle quality education for the masses.

[nemo137]

118. i'm gonna jump in here.

my mom, a woman with degrees in icthyology, biology, and education, and coursework in zoology and chemistry, saw no conflict in believing in god and accepting evolution as a fundamental truth of nature. maybe if our education system was better, those inclined to belive in god would appreciate his creation better and those not so inclined wouldn't be held hostage to the whims of a minority of bad christians?

[Name removed]

112. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

117. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Corgigal]

127. People arent more religious

they just use the church for social occasions. The men network and the women do the seen and be seen. The parents look for other parents like THEM, since of course only good parents would attend the same church they attend. Of course, then they can then find a suitable friend for their child. The women are too busy watching each other and trying to better themselves against the lady they met last week.

Also churches are very political. If I wanted to work a Con, or become a serial killer, I would join a church. People lose sight of critical thought when it comes to others who attend the same church.

[George_Bonanza]

128. Several issues

I find the idea of America having to "outgrow" its religiousness quite fascinating. Europe went through a millennium of religious bloodshed before realizing that being more lax about it helps everybody. America has barely had 200 years to go through the same process. Perhaps there is a maturation level of religion. Like the aging process of humans, they start off energetic, then rabidly passionate and outgoing, then into old age, they grow wiser and more relaxed. The anomaly here is Canada, who is younger than America yet is less religious. One explanation could be its ties to Britain and Europe, and France as well. Canada still has formal ties with Europe, unlike America, and could be swayed by their influence.

I find the idea of smart people having to be non-religious pretty generalizing. I've met some very intelligent people who go to church regularly and have a strong faith. It's a personal choice, not a pre-determining factor. For example, a nuclear scientist who goes to mass is no less intelligent than an agnostic nuclear scientist. Some people tend to be more religious/spiritual than others. I'm not, although I consider myself a Presbyrterian, I just see God as a general embodiment of benevolent power who is to be honoured through universal good deeds. The rest are quibbling details.

[CivilRightsNow]

129. Some thoughts from an elected representitive

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Religion/HL643.cfm

"Religion contributes to the American Experiment in at least one other way--it burns deeply in the hearts of men and women, emboldening them to confront injustice and improve the condition of our society. Being "one nation, under God" is not at all the same as being a godly nation. Our history bears ample witness to the fact that we Americans, like every other people who ever were or ever will be, are a community of sinners. But that same history also makes it clear that, in every generation, men and women with a fervent faith in God's word have valiantly sought to curb our evil impulses. The campaigns against "demon rum" and child labor, the efforts to protect women and Indians, the movement to advance the civil rights of African-Americans--all had their origins in the truth-claims of religious conviction. From its very outset, the campaign against slavery in the United States was based on the conviction that inasmuch as all men and women are created in God's image, slavery is an affront against God Himself."
- Rick Sanatorum

[blindpig]

135. european history, read it and weep

suprised nobody in this long thread mentioned this. all european countries suffered ugly wars & civil wars of religion, the 30 yrs war in particular. reason enough for scepticism!

[Cheswick2.0]

139. separation of Church and State

it has allowed people to "practice" their religion in any manner or from they choose. Most other industrialized nations have official or semi official religions which turns people off.

[Swede]

166. Name one western country.

And don't say Great Britain.

[Muddleoftheroad]

167. Ireland

For starters.

[muriel_volestrangler]

170. guess again

"The only Western Christian country which has a church attendance higher than that of the U.S. is Ireland. More than 90% of adults went to church during the 1960's. A poll by Irish Marketing Surveys released in 1999-DEC, found that only half of the population of the Irish Republic currently attended church weekly. (This is a reduction from about 63% in 1998). "

http://www.religioustolerance.org/rel_rate.htm

[Muddleoftheroad]

172. I think we are talking past one another

I named one Western nation where they had an official or semi-official religion per the previous post. Ireland certainly fits.

[muriel_volestrangler]

173. fair enough

I thought we were talking about the 'turn people off' bit.

[soupkitchen]

160. Because as a people we need the most forgiveness.

Since so much of our wealth is based upon lying and stealing and closing our eyes to those who lie and steal.
The fact that God is going to forgive us if we go to Church makes it easier to morally oblivious the rest of the week.

[JNelson6563]

161. religion and fear, natural partners

Fear the wrath of God and fear all American's enemies. Only by doing as those annointed by God to lead us can you avoid destruction by either.

So they would have us believe (and many do).

Julie

[Ardee]

162. You are simply wrong

There are many industrialised nations with a larger religious base than the US Italy, France, several South American nations to mention only a few of them. The US has a more diverse religious population than most other nation to be sure but what the hell does this have to do with any reality on this planet?

Why do you believe that belief has anything whatsoever to do with political reality? Why do you demonstrate such sophomoric hatred of those who believe in a god or follow the teachings of an organised religion? Surely as many atrocities have been committed by atheists as by the religiously motivated throughout history but that doesnt fit your premise.

[_Jumper_]

205. Where did I denounce religion?

?

http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=167

Among First World Nations America is by far the most religious.

[Ardee]

206. Look up the word Smarmy

When you equate religious belief with the problems of american politics and policies you are guilty of a knock against religious belief.

I followed your link and found only an article based upon a poll taken. If one were to actually take note of how many actually attend regular church services Im certain that america would be rather far down the list. Italy, where the catholic church is an everyday part of life, involved in the warp and woof of italian culture is certainly a nation in which religion plays a more important part in political life than it does here in the USA.

I believe that your issue is with the small but powerful coterie of Bushistas who claim the mantle of religiosity and are extreme fundamentalists, note Ashcrofts habit of anointing himself with Crisco every morning.......What you are doing is fodder for the Limbaughs and Hannity's who would love to claim that DU is a godless place as further evidence of our lack of credibility...please say hi to Rush for me when you next see him and tell him Ill pray for his release from adiction.

[Blue_Chill]

240. Exactly

well said.

[mmonk]

181. Lots of deleted postings

whenever there are religious discussions. There is a lot of emotion I guess.

[pezcore64]

187. ....

the only reason god was mentioned in any of the 'founding fathers' documents was because the southern colonies refused to be on board unless God was mentioned.

capitalism and christianity are contradictions of each other. you can not be a capitalist country and truely consider yourself a christian. all capitalism does is idolise money. we are a country of money worshippers. hooray for us. im sure God sure does love our country!
I LOVE MONEY
I LOVE WAR
oh yeah, and God too!
God told me to love money and war !

ha ha ha!

[bloom]

193. RE: "Why is America by far the most religious industrialized nation?"

Does anyone know why this has happened? This is really hurting us. If America was as religious as any other industrialized nation the Democratic Party would be dominant right now...



I think what is hurting us is the desire by the Republicans to equate Religion(Christianity)/Patriotism/Nationalism.

I don't think there is a problem with religious beliefs or non-beliefs until a group tries to make it the only acceptable option - the Black and White approach.

[Oracle]

211. ALL religion is bullshit...a way to control people since man

was first able to sell something and make a profit.

Only the really timid and scared shitless believe the shit and oh how they want to believe...hence, a person that is easily controled.

I only believe the spirit and love in ones own heart and soul.

Not this complete crap the rulers have been feeding us FOREVER...

make you feel guilt, guilt and more guilt as they fight and kill and destroy and steal in the name of religion!!!!

Alwys have always will.

[muriel_volestrangler]

212. Some professionals consider the question

a pair from Harvard - book in progress.
http://ksghome.harvard.edu/~.pnorris.shorenstein.ksg/church-state.htm

In Chapter 4, they notice a correlation between inequality of income distribution in a country, and how often people pray (individually, not in church) in a country; and that the poor pray more often than the rich.

Of course, this doesn't show which way round the cause is. It could be that a well developed welfare state lessens the need for a church system that helps the poor; or that those in physical need pray and go to church more, in the hope they'll get a better lot in life from God. Or that trusting in God lessens your will or ability to set up an equitable society.

[Merlin]

218. It could also be that enlightened people believe in fairness.

A person for whom religion is extremely important is one who is very insecure about their understanding of the real world, and about the dangers of life. Such persons are literally terrified of considering the possibility of a world in which there were no personal God to hear their prayers and no invisible spirits to protect and guide them, and no attentive souls of their dead loved ones in heaven to look upon them with loving care.

(I was such a person for half a century. Most of the people I know and love are like this. I refuse to prostelitize against their beliefs because they need their "faith" so as to keep their sense of reality in tact and to avoid having to reconstruct their personal philosophical outlook in the absence of such comforting thoughts.)

The believer's thought pattern translates to political behavior. In America, believers are persuaded that God has chosen our nation to be the light of the world, that we are special, that God Blesses us always and looks over us and guides us. This leaves little for the average citizen to do. They don't really have to worry about secret malevolence in the innards of their government because God wouldn't permit such a thing. Above all, they don't really have to think that hard about how to solve problems, because God is watching over us, and when he wants them solved, he'll do it.

Countries with a more deistic outlook--as in Europe, where it is fashionable to believe in a God, but not a personal God, a Creator of the universe who does not interfere with its operation, not a God who manages to listen to each heartbeat and thought of each of the earth's 5 billion inhabitants--generally understand that for their society to improve, the common good must truly be served, and that means a system where the incentives do not favor high concentrations of wealth at the expense of the "least among us." In other words, such citizens are more likely to genuinely think and inform themselves about politics than we Americans are. Europeans are generally way more informed than Americans.

[ChemEng]

216. Are you saying we need a non-religious population to win?

I strongly disagree, as I believe the majority of Democrats would.

And just what religious beliefs do you think the majority of people in the U.S. hold that are not compatible with the Democratic platform?

I sure hope this sentiment doesn't bubble over to the press.

[muriel_volestrangler]

221. There was a tendency for the church-going to vote for Bush

"Religiosity, as measured by church attendance, clelarly reveals a pivotal difference between U.S.citizens and how they vote. Traditionally religious people were much more likely to vote for Bush. The VNS exit poll data found that the more frequently people attended church the more likely they voted Republican: weekly attendance, 40 percent for Gore, 57 percent for Bush; seldom attend, 54 percent for Gore, 42 percent for Bush; and never attend, 61 percent for Gore, 32 percent for Bush.

Another VNS question that touched upon traditional religiosity queried the importance of moral values in one's choice for president. When asked, "Which issues, if any, were the most important to you in deciding how you would vote for president today?" those who chose to regard "moral/ethical issues" as one of their deciding issues voted 55 percent Republican and only 17 percent democratic."

http://www.themronline.com/200106m2.html

The positions that give the Democratic platform a problem are abortion and homosexual marriage. Most churches strongly push their members towards the general Republican view on these.

[Blue_Chill]

239. So you would throw the 40% away?

That's what the anti-religious attitdue will do. And it will throw the 54% and a large chunk of the 61% out with it.

[ecstatic]

225. You mean the most hypocritical-religious country?

I mean, all you need to do is take a look back at the history of how America started and the practices that keep it in power today. This country is religious on the surface only.

[Lefergus70]

253. It's religious extremism that sets Americans apart

There is nothing outside the U.S., that I know of, to match this rising breed of zealous, intolerant Christians who now practically run the country. The hatred and hipocrisy that blares from so-called Christian radio and TV is at odds with the brotherly love that I recall being preached from the pulpits in traditional churches.

Look at Pat Robertson, founder of the Moral Majority, chuckling on his TV show about how sweeet it would be to blow up the Pentagon (while interviewing the author of an anti-Pentagon boook). And his repulsive financial deals with African dictators responsible for genocide. And he even ran for president and had a large following.
<http://www.geocities.com/capitolHill/7027patrobertson.html>

[0007]

233. btt

[undergroundpanther]

235. Christ

I say Mythosmyou say real,

Look I have been hurt by fundies.I have been jaded with thier judeo-christian-satanism.
Many religions have been co-opred by rulers in this world, they are too damn servile to "the gods"which a man pretends to speak for to justify political power.Most holy texts and thier'gods' be they hindu christian ,muslim ect.disgust me because of what abusive horror they excuse in the name of god. None of these texts despite how holy you think they are are able to stop abuse,war ect.because they advocate it and excuse it.

These 'holy texts' contain plenty of human ugliness to make them suspect of being ungodly creations.The Christian god hasen't been able to motivate Christians to take the crap out of his bible..Just read Joshua.Read revalations.Read the story of the flood,I bet those people drowned and all the evil animals deserved it.Riight.

Look at how when the angels came to sodom and Lot pushed his own daughters out to be raped,by the masses looking to make it with an angel.I bet his daughters didn't like getting raped by a mob.And Sodom has been one of the stories that justify anti gay violence,and homophobia ,it encourages incidents like Matthew Sheppard.Why is this kind of abusive crap taken literally as a legit part of christianity?

You Christians do know the bible was selected and edited to suit the selfish agenda of roman emperors and the tyrannical church right? The church had no problem hacking apart the texts and omitting entire books wrtten by the annointed one's followers like Nag Hammadi,or q as if it wasen't "legitamate".And some of these texts are written closer to the time christ allegedy existed than the crap chosen to be put in the standard bible of today.
The authoritarians of the time didn't want the socially liberal,the spirit-of god is within you, anti-archon(anti authority) side of christianity to have a voice because it threatened the state of rome,which was authoritarian and archon to the core.The Gnostics were disgusted with the creator of this world.. The Roman government working through the church, created a horrible regime ,that was the civilized world as far as peasants subjugated by it are concerned.That parellel between rome and the perverse creator who made evil to judge the disobedient could not be tolerated if kings wanted to keep power.


The emperors and Church-state turned the deep,varied,individualized,spiritual,not religious,empowering positive and honest message of the Gnostics into tawdry propaganda to support thier own quest for domination.

So why don't christians who can see these hack jobs in thier bible,be honest and put the spirit of god back into the bible and omit the church's disgusting tawdry propaganda in favor of a better bible,one that doesen't justify inequality,elitism abuse and hate? One that denouces slavery,kings and control freaks?

The Romans and the church of rome were "blasphemous" enough to subvert a spiritual movement edit it's texts into propaganda,are you christian enough to take the words of your god and seperate it from the words of satan and state? Can't you all see well crafted propaganda taints what might be good about your belief system?

The bible has been hijacked and edited by sicko control freaks,pharasee and authoritarians.

I myself have been hurt by christianity.So I prefer my own spirituality,free of tales of hate,judgement,authority worship,blind obedience and abuse.I forge my own transcendant path,and my concept of god,has no face really,yet I will take wisdom from any text and throw away what offends my spirit.
But I do know there is a pervasive evil in the world and it is manifested in humans as the will to abuse, dominate the world and subjugate fellow mankind.Evil is in the will some people have to make everyone be like themself and force agreement or conformity by any means. Evil is in bullying,Dehumanization,social inequality,authoritarian social control,slavery,manipulation of consent, social darwinism/eugenics ,elitism and bigotry.
By The fruits you shall know them.What fruits has the bible as edited by emperors brought us? How much bad fruit? how little good fruit?

The bible as it has been edited so does not speak out against these abuses of humanity without showing hypocrasy that dillutes the honesty of god and the little of what's left of the spirituality in the bible. You can't read Paul's line about what love is (love is kind,not arrogant ect.)Without flinching when you see Fallwell making gold deals with dictator Taylor in Libera I dunno what's wrong with you.

If you can justify a living feeling,person like yourself,being _torturted_ forever and ever to yourself for simply being gay ,getting into neo-paganism,or not accepting your god as thier god or just cause he was a vessel of wrath instead of a vessel of god's chosen from before the beginning of time.
How can anyone know if god has chosen them for wrath or not? Get this, the bible has no clear answer.Theologians debate on this all day trying to take an insane abuse of humanity by god who claims to love them and make it justified.That is why so many denominations are out there..Any christian calling this kind of abuse and manipulation of a person rightious isn't anything but crazy or in denial and so they seek and seek to understand this insanity until they can't resolve this contradiction from within the texts of the bible.Than they figure the bible is too corrupted to matter anymore..They seek other texts to enlighten them about god .They find the same old abusive shit,and on they go to another faith,and then another,they get athiestic and then that faith without god is shaken,and they seek god again.

Hell and torture is never just,and you can say all day about how god is all loving, and so beyond our human understanding,but frankly this kind of belief in of itself is abusive and evil to the core.Why an all powerful all loving god would do such a thing to his beloved creations defies sanity and morality.And those awful abusive doctrines have created more evil and barbarity in the hearts of people twords thier fellow man in this world and some of history tells the truth the religious would rather forget,it's in the bones of the dead and in inquistor brag books and in the genocide of the Native Americans,it's in some crime scene investigations and it's in chuch child abuse and pedophilia lawsuits.

It's in the mental hospital where good people brutally abused by bad people (some of them claiming to be godly)try to make sense of what happened to them and find no answer except the abuser did it because they can.Everywhere people who ask why do good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people and god's answer is to obey,endure, believe and wait for thier ship to come in.Meanwhile for us po'folks who were not'graced'must toil by the sweat of our brows our lot is suffering,so be glad in it.Or tithe ourselves into the poorhouse praying for a ten fold return on the investment as the church uses tithes to fund the election of god's chosen monster GW Bush..

Doctrines of hell ,the vessels of wrath crap,and orginal sin as it is currently interpreted ,and your suffering is the will of god is a spirituality killing,social engineering, authoritarian propagandic, consience and empathy killing pig,too many christians are ignorant about the ugly history of thier own bible and so they just do as they are taught,and go put lipstick on that pig and sell it as a god as love or they just skip over the nasty stuff and love god anyway.And they are offended at being shown as hypocrites so they hate the jaded people turned athiest,they hate liberals who take out the hellfire from heaven, Anyone that does what christ did best, yelling oh ye hypocrites!Is fair game for thier hate. Jesus had a mouthful to say about pharasee and hypocrites and those who pray loudly in public for goodguy points.(one of the more spiritual parts).

As long as the doctrines of hell and original sin remain in the bible and some fools actually take this literally and accept god as an abuser than the Christian god is not to be trusted,nor the followers that negate thier own consiences to cling to a bible full of god justified,rape,hate,war,famine,hierarchy,slavery,genocide,
plundering of cities, killing of children,wife beating,murder,sexual perversion,polygamy,domination,damnation,pedophilia,ect.ect.
You just can't gloss over this kind of grave abuse of people like that as if it was nothing because it happened long ago or justify this kind of atrocity because god said it's ok..


If you want your god to be trusted by people who have been harmed by followers of this jealous,angry vengeful(self admitted) god,
Edit your own bible.Take out the trash.

As it stands now,you cannot take the Bible literally without cherry picking the parts you want to be literal to suit an argument or push an agenda. Not unless you are psychotic or have alzhiemers.The Bible is full of hateful nationalized propaganda mixed in with it's better spiritual messages.
Take out the parts of the bible that glorify and excuse bloody wars and kings of the jewish state,take out the machivellian mindgames,take out the presumption of domination and representation of god by Church and state out of the bible,take out the armegeddon and wholesale slaughter of people and animals on a whim of a jealous god,take out the bigotry and subjugation of women.Yes I ask you Christians to EDIT that so called word of god and look at the other books written by christ's followers that have been expediently expunged from the bible by the church until it reflects a kind loving sane god who is not an impossible,fickle,brutal,abusive,authoritarian tyrant too.

The Rulers of rome and corrupt state edited your bible,years ago so why can't modern more enlightened christians get the guts to edit worldly domination out of their own bible and take thier god back from who warped it's message and corrupted a spiritual god into the image of a arrogant roman lord and corrupt state? Why does the churches(both catholic and prodestant) with it's record of outstanding historical and modern cruelty still have the say on which books of the biblical era are holy or not? Fallwell is not spiritual neither is a church that covers up it's moral failings to hold onto authority.This is evil at it's most disgusting.There is something very wrong here.
There is a spirit of evil in the bible.Athiests can see it,pagans can,liberals can sorta,why can't Christians see it,they are the ones who still love thier god right?

There is much more deep,older and better christian writings out there than the King James Bible.There is Nag Hammadi,Gospel of Q,Gospel of Thomas,Tripartate Tractate...
The story of the interfereance with the publication of Nag Hammadi Library is nothing short of supernatural.IMHO.

Oh And I'm not Christian,I lost my love for jesus long ago at the hands of a pedophile working for god.Years later I did the jesus thing again and I got manipulated and emotionally hurt. So,I'm staying away from the god of the Christians because the followers are so ungodly.
Besides for me any real god that may or may not exist has no text that can discribe it or define what it thinks in it's name writtren by people and obeyed as if it was alive.What is god? What happens after death? Nobody knows, but alot of people guess,and those guesses are sometimes called holybooks and despite all that,I still dunno,and nobody else does either..So,
The unknown is still unknown and I don't care anymmore..I know answers may or may not come to me when I die.And I will die eventually.All I can do now is keep my integrity, use my conseince,stand up for the little guy,share,and care about the well being of others.This kind of ethics it really does make the evil in this world flee and you don't need a bible to do it,just a sensitive decent heart..

[PassingFair]

247. Zowie, Underground...

Way to kill a thread! How 'bout it, Christians? What, no takers?
When I ask my mother these questions, she demurs and says, "'Well, that's the OLD testament". (Does she mean Jewish?). So I call upon her to repudiate the entire OLD testament, but she can't, not without trashing the whole house of Davi, er ...cards.

"Can't throw the baby out with the bath water!" Well you'd damn well better WASH that baby. You got a really dirty baby there.

Thank you, Underground, for your truly impassioned post. I am convinced that you have suffered greatly for your realizations. Peace and love from a fellow realist!

[undergroundpanther]

249. Thanks.

I dunno about being a "realist"..'cause I dunno what reality really *is* anyway.I don't think anybody does. I got a pretty vivid imagination tho.But as for'reality' we will all guess, assume ,pretend and assert what we think it might be by force of will or by group consensus but that don't nessarily make it so. The more I think I know the -answers-',the more I see how little I understand the questions I ask.;)

[BonjourUSA]

251. The religion expresses the organization of the US society.

I think that that's more a need to be in a community than a need to believe in something. Your society is organized with juxtaposed communities in which one of them is on the top, the "white christian community". Their church is their meeting point with a common cry of rally "God bless America".

[Merlin]

254. Religion follows fear.

That's the rule. When people are afraid, they become ever more ardently religious.

It is a human attempt to feel some sense of power in the absence of any real power. Believers turn to prayer as a means of influencing future events, since they know of no other way to do so.

Attacks by enemies, chaos, rapid change, calamity, depression, disease... all create fear. They are all present in the current equation, breeding simultaneous revivals of religious zealotry in the world's three major monotheistic religions.