Why oh why did Dean bring his records to his induction physical?

[dsc]

A lot has been made of Howard Dean bringing his records to his physical. It has been implied this was some effort to dodge his duty. So why did he bring them? Could it be he was told to?

http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:VsZ8Z2k5eAcJ:www.wramc.amedd.army.mil/gmserv/preclinic_conferences/tmac/PhysicalExams.doc+military+physicals&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

SCOPE OF THE EXAMINATION: This depends on the type of examination done, but generally the intent of the exam is to get an assessment of the soldier's or applicant's health as it is at the time of the examination, with any specific problems or limitations noted and evaluated (if not previously evaluated). For example, the ETS (End of Time of Service) exam is trying to capture the current health of the soldier and any significant problems in the past (but not currently causing a problem) before the soldier leaves the service. The physical is not only a medical but also a legal document on which the soldier may use as a basis for a claim with the VA for further care and evaluation, so the documentation needs to be careful and complete. This sounds as if this is a lot to do in the 30 minute appointment allowed, but the forms are completed and the preliminary data is done prior to the actual appointment with the health care provider, so a review of the history, data, selective review of the health records (the soldier must bring his health records to the appointment with the HCP-Health care provider), and a directed physical exam can be accomplished within the time allowed.


The above is from the manual that doctors conducting such physicals are given. Note the bold sentence (emphasis mine parenthesis theirs). It doesn't say soldiers may bring but soldiers must bring their medical records. Could that be why Dean brought those records? I will admit this is the current manual and not the 1970 era one. But I don't think the purpose of the physical has changed in the meantime. This isn't a story I like but the truth. Next time someone asks you why Dean brought those records you have an answer.


On edit It should be noted that this makes perfect sense. There are a great many physical things that people get deferred for that one can not see just by looking at a person. In addition to both Dean's and Kucinich's deferements there are deferements for having certain mental problems, for having certain diseases, and for other things that may or may not be readily apparent upon examination.

[slinkerwink]

1. :KICK:

That's a GOOD point!!!

[Demobrat]

2. ORDER TO REPORT FOR ARMED FORCES PHYSICAL EXAMINATION

I can't copy and paste. Don't mean to shout, that's how it's titled.
The date is February 18, 1970. The pertinent part is in the third paragraph.

IF YOU HAVE ANY PHYSICAL OR MENTAL CONDITION WHICH, IN YOUR OPINION, MAY DISQUALIFY YOU FOR SERVICE IN THE ARMED FORCES, BRING A PHYSICIANS'S CERTIFICATE
DESCRIBING THAT CONDITION.

Again, their caps not mine.

Dean brought the records because the letter told him to. End of story.

[slinkerwink]

3. yep...there....ought to solve that problem

of Dean's getting out of the army by bringing his rich doctor's x-rays without being required to do so WHEN it turns out that Dean HAD to do it.....

[retyred]

73. Yep! Had To?

Nice try!

IF YOU HAVE ANY PHYSICAL OR MENTAL CONDITION WHICH, IN YOUR OPINION, MAY DISQUALIFY YOU FOR SERVICE IN THE ARMED FORCES, BRING A PHYSICIANS'S CERTIFICATE DESCRIBING THAT CONDITION.

Doesn't appear dean had to, in fact the opposite is true, he only brought them in the hopes of getting disqualified, if not he could've left them home.




retyred in fla
“good night paul, wherever you are”
So I read the book

[Media_Lies_Daily]

31. Slam dunk.

[bearfartinthewoods]

36. i didn't

i didn't bring them. they saw the scar on my thigh and kicked me into a different line, xrays followed and further exams til i was shown the door.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

49. Did they show you the door because you didn't follow directions...

...in regards to bringing any appropriate medical documentation...a trait that can become rather hazardous in a combat zone...or because they found something medically wrong?

[bearfartinthewoods]

72. the latter.......i had a bad break in my femur when i was a kid

and ended up with one leg a half inch longer than the other

[Demobrat]

4. Damn I don't know how I did that.

But there it is.

[SharonAnn]

5. For the same reason my brother brought his to the physical.

He had a hernia and wanted to be sure that they found it during the examination since it was fairly small.

It kept him out of the draft during Vietnam and I support that. Whatever it takes. There's no point in being noble and dead ifyou have a chance to avoid that.

[sandnsea]

6. Why didn't he say so?

He didn't want to serve, he wanted to get out of the draft. His own words on the matter are clear. He also didn't just show up at the draft board, he made an appointment in advance. But anyway, here's his words:

"I didn't try to get out of the draft," Dean has said. "I had a physical."

"The United States government said this is your classification," he said on NBC's Meet the Press. "I'm not responsible for that. I didn't have anything to do with the decision. That was their choice."
NBC Meet the Press
http://www.vietnamwar.com/HowardDeandraftdeferment.htm August

"I was not anxious to serve in Vietnam," said Dean, whose brother, Charles, died under mysterious circumstances in Laos during the Vietnam War. "I was opposed to the war and I was glad I was classified that way, but it was obviously not my decision."
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20031025/D7UDBJUG0.html October

"I was a young man with an unfused vertebrae in my back that had been diagnosed during high school. At the time of my military physical, I presented army doctors with x-rays and a letter from my physician explaining the condition. On that basis, the army determined I was ineligible to serve, classifying me as 1-Y. This injury didn't keep me from leading a normal life, but it did prevent me from serving in the Army. Like many Americans at that time, I was opposed to the war. However, while I did oppose the war, I fulfilled my obligation and I told the truth."
http://www.valuejudgment.org/archives/000307.html November

[dsc]

15. Maybe because he assumed we would know a physical entalis

looking at one's medical records. He is a doctor after all and I would assume that occasionally he forgets that people who aren't doctors need told those kinds of things.

[sandnsea]

19. No, the whole thing

Why did he act as if he just showed up for his physical, ready to serve?

The fact that he didn't disclose all of the details right from the beginning shows, to me, he was trying to hide the details. That he made an appointment in advance, took his own medical records and a letter from the doctor, and did not want to serve.

I don't think it's draft dodging and I don't even care that he did it. I care that he didn't tell the whole truth about it right from the start. He does this far too often. Like Yucca Mtn. He says it's a government decisions and he just wanted to get the nuclear waste out of Vermont. Recently I found a letter he wrote to Senator Leahy, I think, fully supporting Yucca Mtn. and encouraging the project. He's not a straight-talker, he's not forthcoming. This back thing is just one more example.

[dsc]

25. If one assumes physicals involve medical records

then he did tell the whole story. Again, he is a doctor and would presumedly know that. Frankly, I should have too given that I worked with underwriting insurance for a time.

[mikehiggins]

7. Rediculous

Dean took his records because he knew something was wrong. There was no guarantee that he would be deferred but so what? If he knew there was something that would be detrimental to his serving in the Army what was he supposed to do? Lie about it?

If there hadn't been something wrong he wouldn't have gotten the deferment. Its as simple as that. Nobody gave him any special consideration (like getting him into the Air National Guard) or anything like that.

I was classified 1-Y because my eyesight was too bad to meet the military standards at the time I was examined. I had no objection to going, but I was releived to be told I wouldn't have to. Hell, if I'd had the money I might have spent the year skiing instead of working in the Post Office.

There are a lot of things I don't care for regarding the Doctor but this is a totally bogus question from beginning to end. Fortunately I don't think it is something the Bushoids will hit him on if Dean does get the nomination. Dubya is too vulnerable on the topic of the Air National Guard for that to be a safe bet.

[w4rma]

26. Is it not possible that

Dean took his medical records to his medical examination for the same reason Gen. Wesley Clark takes his medical records to his medical examinations. Because they both have to.

[IndianaGreen]

69. I think that Dean's story about the ski trip is bogus and a cover-up

This is pure speculation on my part, and is based on nothing but intuition, but I suspect that the ski trip is a cover story to hide something else. The only thing that comes to mind is the grief over the disappearance of Charlie Dean. There have been hints that the Dean family was hit pretty hard, not just Howard, but his parents as well. If there was any psychological counseling or treatment involved, and considering the Eagleton fiasco during the McGovern campaign, this would have been kept secret.

It would have been better that people think you went skiing after getting a deferment for a bad back, than to think that you were human and needed mental health intervention.

[T Bone]

80. If you have a condition that could cause you to die in basic training

it makes sense to take your records, rather than rely on an Army doctor to find it at the physical where often scores are being examined.

Basic Training is not a cakewalk. There is a distinct possibility it can kill you if you have an existing condition that is serious enough.

That is why you get a physical before you go in. What is so wrong about highlighting what may be a condition that could result in your death in basic training?

People here making a big deal about it are no better than a Republican. Why don't you just go put a Bush-Cheney bumpersticker on your car?

[leetrisck]

8. Why oh why shouldn't he and

why didn't bush show up for his flight physical and dissappear for a year - drugs maybe?

[Karmadillo]

9. Some problems (including question of whether it was Dean who sought exam)

1. Dean, as far as I know, has never said he was told to bring the records.

2. According to the Boston Globe, Dean's physical, rather than being initiated by the military, occurred at his own request. He wrote a letter asking for a physical in order to "clarify his standing". He brought his X-Rays and a letter from his physician.

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/dean/articles/2003/09/21/a_back_condition_wins_dean_a_vietnam_era_draft_deferment/

<edit>

In February of 1970, with the Vietnam War raging, 21-year-old Howard Dean carried a set of X-rays and a letter from a Manhattan orthopedist named Hudson Wilson to Fort Hamilton in Brooklyn, where US military doctors determined that he was not fit for military service because of a back condition called spondylolisthesis.

<edit>

At Yale, Dean did not support the war but was not vocal. He took part in one protest, by his count. He said he was not overly worried about being drafted and said the reason he wrote a letter seeking a military medical exam was to clarify his standing.

more...

3. In his Meet the Press appearance, he doesn't mention the request, doesn't mention bringing his own X-Rays and the letter, and claims he wasn't trying to get out of the draft, so it's hard to know whether he's fudging or if the Globe account is incorrect. In any case, he doesn't mention being required to bring his records.

http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/912159.asp

<edit>

Russert: Let me turn to a Boston Globe article about the military service during the Vietnam War as it applies to you and I’ll put it on the screen. “Dean did not serve in the military during the Vietnam War because he received a medical deferment for an unfused vertebra in his back. Several articles in the last year have noted that after his deferment, Dean spent 80 days skiing in Aspen, Colorado.” And then The Aspen Times wrote this profile. “In Howard Dean, we could have a president who spent the winter of 1971-72...pounding bumps on Aspen Mountain. ‘I paid $250 for a ski pass and skied 80 days on Ajax. It was the greatest mountain. ... I went to work pouring concrete for a small company.’” Why were you able to ski on Ajax Mountain, pounding your back, and pouring concrete, and not serve in the military?

Dean: First of all, let me say that there’s only one person who’s contending for the Democratic nominee for president who did serve in the military, nomination for president, and then let me explain the circumstances of my draft classification. I went to my physical in Ft. Hamilton in Brooklyn, which was a great deal like the scene out of Alice’s Restaurant in terms of the different sizes, shapes, colors, and all kinds of people were there. I was given an examination. I had a previous back problem, which is evidently congenital, which prevented me from doing any sustained running, a problem that I’ve had since then, since that time, which requires that when I get out of the car I often have some pains up and down my leg and back and so forth. But I have been able to exercise at—ry vigorous athletic life except for some things. One of those is long-distance running, which is how the problem came to my attention in the first place. I noticed the pain when I was in high school running track. In any case, the—after the physical, I received a one Y deferment. That’s how the United States government decided that they would use me. One Y deferment means you can only be called in times of national emergency. I didn’t have anything to do with choosing any draft deferment. I didn’t try to get out of the draft. I had a physical. The United States government said this is your classification. I’m not responsible for that. I didn’t have anything to do with the decision. That was their choice.

more...

[leetrisck]

13. All Dean should say is "you know about mine, now

ask the little yellow coward bush about his" and we absolutely must have complete details.

[JohnKleeb]

16. That would be cool if anyone did that brought up Bush

I dont have a problem with dean not serving as long as he isnt hawkish, and he doesnt seem to be, just sayin, I only have problems with people not serving if they are really big war mongrels, and Dean isnt one.

[Hep]

61. heh

1. Dean, as far as I know, has never said he was told to bring the records.

So this is the ONE thing that Dean would have to say in order for it to be true? You don't believe anything else he says. I suspect had he said so, we'd be fielding comments like "How do we know he isn't lying?"

2.

So?

3.

Why do you think Dean should disclose every bit of information about ANYTHING to an interviewer like Tim Russert, especially given the question/Relatively short answer format?

[Karmadillo]

81. Well, since you asked

1. The original post suggested Dean might have been told to bring his records with him (remember, sometimes it's nice to frame your response in relation to the what the thread is actually about). Dean's failure to ever mention he was told to bring his records with him suggests he wasn't. Whether I would or wouldn't believe Dean on the subject is irrelevant.

2. The Globe account suggests it wasn't the military who contacted Dean and told him to bring his records, but Dean who contacted the military looking for an opportunity to make his records available. Nothing criminal in that, but does suggest the supposition in the original post is incorrect.

3. Re: the MTP appearance, when given the opportunity to discuss the actual facts surrounding his military history, Dean was allowed to ramble for a considerable length of time and again failed to suggest he was told to bring his records. Not definitive, but more proof he probably wasn't told to.

[KaraokeKarlton]

67. People with spondylolisthesis aren't accepted into the military

It's a disqualifying condition because you can't run long distances, and especially not carrying a heavy backpack full of equipment necessary during war time. Some people with very mild conditions can fight for a waiver to allow them to serve, but they don't have any control of the decision.

[NashVegas]

76. Taking Initiative

If anyone is trying to make his early request for the appointment look like a bad thing, I don't see how that can be workable. Lots of people would admire someone for wanting to get things like this cleared up one way or the other ahead of time, rather than wait til the last minute.

[SheilaT]

10. It may not be possible for someone

not old enough to remember Vietnam and the draft, to fully understand how incredibly anxious many young men were not to serve. My older brother enlisted in 1961, was stationed in Berlin, and got out in 1964. My younger brother had poor eyesight and wore an old pair of glasses to his physical and got himself classified 1Y, meaning not eligible to serve at that time. Youngest brother got a high enough lottery number not to have to worry.

I know any number of other young men who did serve. Not all of them came home.

[xxqqqzme]

11. BFD!

It's not like he was AWOL or anything. Don't think kkkarl is gonna go there. The water is a little murky.

[Octafish]

12. Then why did Dean go skiing for 80 days in Vale, Colorado?

Was he celebrating his medical good fortune on a suddenly cured back? If not the major issue, National Security will play a major role in the general election. Rove will make Bush out to be the Liberator of Baghdad.

It's going to take a heck of a candidate to beat the image of Bush the war hero out of the vast middle's minds. Why do you think I'm so anti-Dean for?

And what's it take to drive out an old nail? A new nail.

Regarding bad backs and military service: Here's a Democrat who had a bad back, was turned down by the US Army, and still volunteered to serve his country in the US Navy (and he, too, could have brought a note from his orthopedist and an X-ray from his radiologist and afforded to spend a war skiing):

[jpgray]

17. If the back problem doesn't affect skiing, why shouldn't he ski?

The military was content with the records he brought, I think Democrats should be as well. He reported for the draft, and they did not call him. That is good enough for me.

[Beaker]

20. Exactly.

There's a big difference between marching for days on end with a 50-lb. pack, and gently sliding down a hill.

[retyred]

74. gently sliding down a hill?

You don't ski do you?



retyred in fla
“good night paul, wherever you are”
So I read the book

[Lady President]

22. Causes a perception problem

The skiing causes a perception problem that makes me concerned for the general election. Rove will have ads showing Bush* in uniform, at the WTC, and in Iraq juxtaposed against pictures of people skiing moguls and the words "I probably could have served".

[jpgray]

23. Oh I don't doubt Rove will find something to glean from this

But all our candidates are particularly rich in this area. Kerry seeming to ride the political winds on IWR then abandon it, Clark leaving NATO under mysterious circumstances, none of these things will be off-limits for gross misinterpretation. There would be something to spin even if our guy was a bubble boy who never had contact with the outside world for forty years. They could paint him as a pathological liar, for example--it wouldn't matter if he had ever told one or not.

:)

[tlb]

27. If Max Cleland has problems with this

why can't Kerry, Clark, or anyone else?

[jpgray]

29. Exactly (nt)

[AP]

50. "glean"? "destroy him with" is more accurate.

...

[Media_Lies_Daily]

32. Are you saying Dean should have known then that he was going to...

...be running for president 32 years later?

If he could do that, he would be the modern-day Nostradamus.

Maybe Dean should run commercials of Herr Coke-n-Smoke in his 1968 Air National Guard uniform with the slogan:

"I agreed to faithfully serve in the Air National Guard but went AWOL for a year while American servicemen were still being killed in Vietnam. How do you like me now?"

Which do you think sounds worse?

How about a commercial of Herr Coke-n-Smoke giving his speech on the carrier with the "Mission Accomplished" sign behind him. While he's speaking, all of the names of those Americans killed in Iraq since his little speech can be scrolled across the screen along with running totals. It would end with two words "Mission Accomplished? What did we accomplish, Mr. Bush?"

That sounds pretty ugly, too, doesn't it?

I personally think Rove will stay as far as possible from these subjects.

[Hep]

62. Oh Christ!

Because at that age he should be worried about how his choice to go skiing might affect a future presidential run? How inane is this line of reasoning going to get?

[Octafish]

30. And if Dean's the nominee, I'll back him.

The thing is, most Americans in the middle — especially when America's sons and daughters are in harm's way in Iraq and Afghanistan and every place around the world where the flag is shown — don't necessarily feel the same way Dean's supporters do. They may chose to believe Rove's image of Bushler as a hero. They may also believe that a veteran is a requisite for commander-in-chief.

[Beaker]

18. World War II is NOT a fair comparison to Vietnam-

and by trying to compare JFK's record with Dean's, that's exactly what you're doing.
While I'll agree that when Dean said: "I probably could have served..." (or whatever he recently said to that effect) he basically destroyed any chance he had at the presidency, I can't hold his actions against him.
Just because the military decided that it didn't want to make the investment in someone with a back problem that could become debilitating, it doesn't mean that the person has to dress in sackcloth and lock themself away, or beg on the street for alms.
Dean owes NOBODY any apologies for the way he lived his youth.

[Octafish]

28. You are correct, Beaker — In World War 2 we were fighting the fascists...

... who were trying to take over the world. Many people who dodged the draft in Vietnam would have volunteered to serve to protect America, our Constitution, our families, and homes.

OTOH, Vietnam was a Civil War. Rather than back the North and the commies, we sided with the French-backed colonialist remnant government — OK, the capitalists, also known as the French-backed, Roman Catholic Diem regime.

It's so strange. Ho Chi Minh, our ally during World War 2 in the fight against the Japanese. Hanoi Jane was right. What's different about her from Dean is Dean didn't say "boo" about the war once he got his deferment.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

38. Man, Was JFK Skinny

JFK was a bonafide American hero......

A liberal with brass ones.....

Perhaps the greatest liberal to ever live...

[JNelson6563]

39. Bush=war hero LOL!!

Good one.

[Octafish]

44. It IS funny ... to you and me and most of DU.

But then about 48-percent of the electorate pulled the lever for the Little Turd from Crawford in 2000. Have you ever talked to one of them and said their candidate was AWOL during Vietnam? More often than not, they say, "I don't think so," and then shut down any more conversation.

[JNelson6563]

45. so easily countered

Every time some reich-winger tries to plant the draft-dodger meme counter it with AWOL.

It would serve two purposes. Stop the spreading of lies about Gov. Dean and expose AWOL for what he is.

I do not understand why so many refuse to see this simple solution.

Julie

[jpgray]

14. I don't think anyone will blame Howard Dean for accepting a 1-Y

There's no shame in having a medical condition, bringing records proving said condition, and receiving a deferment for it. How can it be "dodging" the draft when he reported and was dismissed? Still, that will be the line.

[Beaker]

21. He stuck his own foot in it-

by saying that he "probably could have served". (makes no difference to me, but it will to others)

[jpgray]

24. That could be, but this was Vietnam, after all

I think many who lived through it, and most who didn't, won't bat an eye at this. If the military didn't want you for Vietnam, you weren't expected to fight that decision. Many people went to college (Cheney) or had kids (Lieberman) to avoid the draft. Being deferred by virtue of a medical condition that precludes you from serving in the military's opinion should be no less honorable than those two methods, since Lieberman and Cheney weren't physcially incapable to any degree, but had "other priorities".

But bottom line, I feel that if one did not want to fight in Vietnam and was able to get out of it within the system, that should be good enough for me.

[ibegurpard]

33. Has this actually been made an issue of?

Jesus Christ! Why WOULDN'T you bring your medical records to an army induction physical??

[bearfartinthewoods]

37. because some of us wanted to serve

[Media_Lies_Daily]

51. Easy for some folks to say that up front...

...but once you're in the soup it becomes a different story.

[ResistTheCoup]

52. That's true. And Dean's line about Alice's Restaurant is so true.

In 1971 a friend of mine who had just gotten back from his draft physical was regaling us with his cattle call experience. At one point in the physical I don't know how many guys were lined up shoulder to shoulder as the 'doctor' did an eye exam that consisted of holding the little eye thingy up to his and walking briskly down the line of men while looking in some guys eyes, hitting others on the nose, forehead, chin, etc. Finally, one guy yells, "Hey! Get back here!" The doc yells back, "What the hell's your problem?" and the guy proceeds to pop out his fake eyeball. Thorough physicals indeed.

I enlisted in the Air Force in 1971 and don't remember being asked to bring my medical records. I wanted to serve but felt that my chances of being cannon fodder would be a lot less in the AF than the Army. Kinda like what George Carlin said about how he enlisted in the Air Force to avoid the draft. Anyone of draft age then knows what I'm talking about.

I also remember everyone being drug tested on arrival at Basic Training. A couple of days later I was hauled into the Drug Abuse office to explain an amphetamine that had showed up in my drug test. I explained that it was a prescription medication that I had used and I was told I had 7 days to get a letter from my doctor or I would be separated from the service. While we were talking I noticed three giggly skin-heads (term for newly-shaved headed recruits) and asked the drug counselor why those guys were so happy. He said that they had all tested positive on their drug tests and were going to be separated from the Air Force. He shook his head and said that they shouldn't be so happy because what they don't realize is that the Army doesn't give a shit if you use drugs and that they would probably be drafted now instead.

To sum up my feelings on this whole 'records' story, I think it's a non-story. And I agree with everyone who says that the Bush camp bringing this up would be a very bad idea. But then what the hell do I know - I thought a real Viet Vet (Gore) would handily beat an AWOL dumbass.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

56. The difference was that you actually enlisted....

...as opposed to being notified by mail that Uncle Sam wanted another bullet-catcher in the field.

Funny stories, though. Pretty dehumanizing process that required a sense of humor.

[ResistTheCoup]

60. The difference was that you actually enlisted

"...as opposed to being notified by mail that Uncle Sam wanted another bullet-catcher in the field."

Didn't you catch my whole point about why a lot of guys 'enlisted' versus getting drafted into the Army? Again, George Carlin 'enlisted' to avoid the draft. Some actually wanted to serve others wanted to avoid service.

Just because I was a clueless, young kid who thought it was my obligation to serve doesn't mean that I haven't seen the light since then. I think that there are a lot of people like me who served but who would never think of attacking someone else for doing whatever their conscience told them was the right thing to do. The only ones I judge harshly are the chickenhawks who cheerlead any military action because they and their loved ones will never be called on to serve.

Again, this 'records' story should be a non-story.

[burning bush]

34. This is actually a great opportunity for Dean!

He should arrange a friendly interview, and have the draft dodging question put to him. At that time, Dean can say something like the following:


I'm glad to have the chance to talk about my commitment to the US military. When I was called by the draft board, I told them all about my medical history, including my problems with my back.

I took an Armed Forces physical. I did not pass that physical, and was not asked to serve my country at that time.

Today, looking back on the Vietnam experience that this country endured, I have mixed emotions about the draft board's decision. On one hand, I wonder if I should have hidden my medical history from the military authorities so that I could have served in active duty.

On the other hand, like many young men of my age at that time, I had serious questions about sending Americans off to fight in a war that had been rationalized under false pretenses. Vietnam was a war without an exit strategy, a war of rash judgments.

We still pay the price for those rash judgments. As a civilian doctor, I've seen the aftermath of Vietnam. I've seen soldiers with physical and mental scars, soldiers that have been left behind by their government, left behind by a society that often does not seem to understand the problems faced by men and women who fought on behalf of their country.

I hope America will never see another war like Vietnam, or another generation of veterans who have been left behind, and if I am elected President, I will make the following promises this evening:

1) I will never lie to you about the reasons our service men and women may be called into battle.

2) I will not wage an endless, aimless war. The United States will never send our soldiers off to fight without a strategy that includes bringing them back home.

3) I will do everything in my power to ensure that our country's veterans will always be shown the respect that they deserve, that they will always be given the medical treatment that they require, and that when they do at last come home, they will not come as shadowed reminders of the ugliness of wars fought, but as keepers of the peace and freedom that all American's enjoy.

Not just as a candidate, but also as a doctor, and as a proud citizen of this great country, I am committed to the troops of this country, to their future, to their health, and to their well being.

Never question that.



If Dean said somthing like this, the situation would be turned to an asset immediately. It plays with his Iraq message, it plays against Bush's handling of the war, and against Bush's treatment of the military. It even hits Bush on his "No Child Left Behind" failure.

The real question is not whether Dean dodged the draft (he didn't), but whether he supports the military.

Dean can clear this up very easily, I believe.

[Chomskyite]

35. Simple remedy: The minute Bushies attack Dean for this

. . . remind them of Bush's desertion from his Texas Air National Guard duty and his evasion of the drug tests he had to pass in order to be allowed to fly.

Watch how fast they shut up.

And if any of those idiot Right-wing talkshow hosts bring it up, call them up, lie to their screeners and then when you get on the air ask why they haven't mentioned Bush's desertion of his Texas Air National Guard unit.

[JNelson6563]

40. It's so obvious, so easy

and yet a handful of usual suspects of course see this as completely insurrmountable! Fools.

We have an AWOL alcoholic coke-head and Dean who got a medical deferrment. See how they quiver in fear of the AWOL chimp? Kinda reminds me of a candidate or two last year about
this time with their IWR votes.....not to mention that Homeland inSecurity nonsense.

Chomskyite, you have it just right, nevermind those who live their lives in fear of the Mayberry Machiavellis. We see how far they have gotten us (aka the wilderness).

Julie

[RetroLounge]

41. Nuff said...

"the soldier must bring his health records to the appointment with the HCP-Health care provider"

[ibegurpard]

42. It's staring the Deanhaterz in the face but they still won't let it go.

And they wonder why Dean supporters get so pissy.

[retyred]

75. Where do you see "MUST"

What I see is: "IN YOUR OPINION, MAY DISQUALIFY YOU FOR SERVICE IN THE ARMED FORCES, BRING A PHYSICIANS'S CERTIFICATE DESCRIBING THAT CONDITION. as in if you want to be disqualified.

Why can't dean supporters admit he brought in his records in order to be disqualified and not because he was told to bring them! In post #2 on the form it says you should bring in proof only if you feel you may be disqualified "NOT" you "Must" bring in medical records.

So spin it as you must, dean chose to bring in medical records in order to be disqualified.

FYI: If it's true that dean asked for an appointment to show his records, chances are good he never recieved a full physical, after reviewing his medical records, the most he may have gotten was an x-ray to varify what was presented and a confirmation from an army doctor as to the prognosis of deans doctor.

So unless dr. dean views having x-rays to be all that is required to claim having a physical, he has spun this little fact also.



retyred in fla
“good night paul, wherever you are”
So I read the book

[MaineDem]

43. I am not a Dean fan

However, I probably would have brought someone else's x-rays to the physical if it meant getting out of the draft.

I know that's probably not the pc way of thinking but you have to remember this was 30 some years ago and the times were very different. I was in college when they started the lottery bit and I am female so I didn't have the same fears as the guys.

I fault Dean on many things but this isn't really one of them. (Skiing afterward may be an issue but, again, this was then.)

[kerry-is-my-prez]

47. I don't fault him for it BUT it will be twisted by BushCo

THAT'S why we should have a Clark/Dean ticket if we truely want to win...

[JaneQPublic]

79. If they can brand Max Cleland and "unpatriotic",,,

...then you can bet that anyone who ends up our nominee will be "twisted by BushCo."

The trick is to get a Democratic nominee who knows how to fight. And Dean is doing that... Plus, he's playing a whole new campaign game, the likes of which Rove and company don't understand and don't even own the rulebook for.

[KittyWampus]

46. Dean Has An Intrinsically Limited Arsenal Against Bush

Dean did NOT SERVE but said himself "I could have". Bush WILL be running as a wartime President.

That is a fact and Dean supporters need to stop whining about it or accusing other Democrats of "falling" for GOP spin.

If the Thanksgiving Surprise photo-op isn't enough of a clue that this is the case than Dean supporters are hopeless.

In an ideal world, having served wouldn't be an issue. However, Bush & Rove WILL be using Commander In Chief Images.

THIS IS REALITY. There are two Democratic candidates who HAVE served and can therefore use the AWOL stick.

Dean chose long ago not to go to Vietnam (again, he is on THE RECORD saying "I could have"). That is his karma. Karma is not about Fairness. It is about the actions one takes and their consequences.

Dean had an unfused verterbrae, that is his karma. HE DID NOT SERVE. One arrow in his quiver is non existant as compare to other Democratic candidates.

Also, Dean has NO FOREIGN POLICY experience. That is a fact. There are other Democratic Candidates who do.

Dean cannot use the "Bush is a slave to his Foreign Policy advisors" attack. Now TWO arrows in his quiver is non existant.

Thirdly, Dean has sealed his records in Vermont, he cannot use the "Bush has sealed his records" attack. Now THREE arrows in his quiver, are non existant.

[AmericanDem]

48. I doesn't matter to me what he was told.

At this time of war our country is in. It is my opinion, the last thing we need is a person of privilege, how was able to get out of Vietnam ( for what ever reason ) asigning and telling our current troop heros, where and what to do.

Like it or not we will be at war for some time. We owe the Iraq people that much. We need to stay and fix this mess that Bush and his criminal band of misfits started. A person like Dean wish NO world events and military experience CAN NOT do it. It would be too similar to what we now has in place.

[Padraig18]

53. Nice, content-free bash!

May we return the favor to your chosen candidate? Thankis for playing... :eyes:

[Media_Lies_Daily]

54. Excuse me, but I don't recall that Clinton had any military, or foreign...

...policy experience, and he did pretty well in the world of foreign affairs.

Clinton managed to build peace initiatives in anumber of hotspots around the world. He also managed to keep us out of certain conflicts, but when we had to act, he allowed the military to execute their plans without interference.

Thanks to Bunnypants, all of the work that Clinton did to build excellent relationships with most foreign countries has gone straight down the tubes.

[Padraig18]

55. Don't confuse the Deanhaterz with facts.

It only annoys them. :P

[AmericanDem]

58. Clinto was a great president.

I wish we could just snap our fingers to when Clinton was president. Or perhaps being able to go back and kick those that told Gore not to fight Bush taking office..... He will be there only 4 years, What damage can he do in that time....ugggh I still shutter at that.

Clinton was not a president that led a war with most of our armed services being used. What we are dealing with now is far far different then anything we have seen in a while.

... and please respect my opinion. It is what I feel is needed in our next president.I'm stating what I feel deeply about, like it or not.

[Scott Lee]

68. But Sir, Clinton successfully resisted his drafting too.

And good on him for doing that. He also:

Had no world political experience before being president, and governed a small state.

Hmmm...what's left to attack Dean with. Say, how about making fun of Dean's height? Yes, Clinton is much taller.

[Hep]

63. Just go with that

If that's your single issue, then whatever. You're among the very few.

[Scott Lee]

66. "Don't confuse me with the facts. I hate Howard!"

You are unbelievable.

Thank you for finally letting the other shoe drop, and unmask the fact that you have no substance for your opposition to Dean other than sheer mindless hate.

One down.

[TomNickell]

57. No shame in this....

-Everybody- was looking for a way to get out of Vietnam. Dean had a medical condition and used it.

In the current situation, a Vietnam war record and a rise from poverty would make a nice issue against *. But you go with what you got.

* can't make an issue of Dean's draft record and privileged upbringing without putting his own past at issue.

[matcom]

59. i don't normally weigh in on these threads but i have ONE QUESTION

who in their right fucking mind can HONESTLY believe that Chimpy can stand on ANY STAGE with ANYONE and discuss his Viet Namn record OR THEIRS?

this is the DUMBEST "debate" i have seen to date on DU (no offense to ANY particular posters)

HE IS A FUCKING DESERTER and there is NO WAY Rove will let HIM bring up SERVICE! he would get POUNDED by anyone with enough balls to bring up Draft Deferments!

people there is SO MUCH MORE to be "debating" here other than why a particular candidate did or did not serve.

this is so pointless IMHO

PEACE

[matcom]

64. sorry. guess my question was the threadkiller

and you guys were just CRUISING along :eyes:

[matcom]

65. *chirp chirp*

:eyes:

[Octafish]

71. Bush SOP is HE doesn't have to bring it up...an underling will.

Rove will portray the crazy monkey puppet as glorious leader protector of the people. The reality, of course, is the Little Turd from Crawford is afraid of his own shadow. Why else would he start taking Cipro on 9-11 — before (or at least while) the Anthrax mail?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A15269-2002Jun7¬Found=true

OTOH: Dean is fair game for Rove's machine. And they will have a field day with this, among other unmentioned, issues of concern to the ex-governor ex-doctor ex-stockbroker.

PS: I want to kick the Little Turd clear back to Crawford ASAFP. Dean, I'm afraid, isn't the guy who can do it. No offense to his supporters, more than a few who are my friends on DU and in the other world.

[retyred]

78. So you think dean will bring up AWOL

Not a chance, it ain't gonna happen! bush's AWOL was brought up before and shot down, main stream America does not believe bush went AWOL and if "any" candidate makes that accusation, no matter what is said by the bush machine, not only will it go nowhere fast, but without irrefutable proof, it will be a disaster to accuse a war-time pResident of going AWOL.

While we all would like to see it happen, even dean isn't that foot_in_the_mouth!



retyred in fla
“good night paul, wherever you are”
So I read the book

[killbotfactory]

70. I gave up expecting honest criticism of Dean a long time ago

He could rescue a child from a burning car and people would hold it against him. He could put forth a solid and workable plan to cure world hunger and he'd be bashed for flip-flopping because he cut spending on a social program slightly for one year in VT.

But I'm sure that the harshest Dean "critics" happen to be in the corner of other candidates has nothing to do with it.

[slinkerwink]

77. lol.....

who cares that Dean might be our best chance at beating Bush? Definitely not the Dean-bashers here.