Why does america hate cube so?

[reprobate]

And don't tell me it the influence of the cuban expatriots.

This hatred far predates the expatriots. Those who remember history know that castro came to us for help just after the revolution. He was not by any means communist then. Only after we rejected him did he turn to russia.

Even now, when there is NO russian influence we do everything we can to make things difficult for them.

The one question to ask is: Who profits from cuba remaining as it is now?

What's your opinion? Who is to blame for this? And since Kennedy and Castro were approaching normalization, who stood to profit from killing kennedy and stopping normalization.

[IndianaGreen]

1. Cube?

Please edit your title to Cuba. Thanks.

[Ediacara]

2. LOL

I know this is a serious thread, but that title has me laughing like a madman!

[TexasMexican]

10. Cube

I cant speak for the rest of America, but I liked Cube.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0123755/

[camero]

22. But I hate Rubik's Cube

Just a regular ole cube though, I like. :)

[ShaneGR]

70. Ice Cube SUCKS!!!!

I HATE HIM!


lol

[RandomUser]

120. Ice Cubes are good in soda drinks

Works with lemonade, too :)

[matcom]

3. because CUBES bring the worker DOWN!

i DEMAND an office DAMMIT! :P

sorry, just couldn't resist :D

[salin]

6. its a backlash from that evil... rubics...

:D

[IndianaGreen]

7. Cubes of the world, unite! --the new Karl Marx

As a cube farm worker myself.

[salin]

9. what about that guy who had some wierd philosophy on cubes

time cube or something... even did some kind of stunt at MIT (I think the eng kids were pulling the guys leg)... One of the most bizarre websites I have ever seen.

[Paranoid_Portlander]

136. I found the website.

It is www.timecube.com I googled "time cube" and it was the very first listing out of over 7,000 listings. Author says that the Earth rotates once every 96 hours. Fasten your seatbelts when you read this website! Author says it is evil to hate or ignore his cube.

[salin]

137. he has gotten a tad testier

since I ran across him/this more than a year ago.

[youngred]

4. It goes back to the Spanish American War and earlier

and the belief that Cuba "belongs" to us. When we have someone in charge down there opposed to us then we oppose them extra harshly. Sad but true. The quickest way to get rid of Castro would be to open the country up

[Mika]

5. Politicians profit - Dems and repukes

No one really wants to end Castro's regime - in Cuba and in the USA.

Cuban's love their President.

American politicians profit from the standoff, both pro trade and pro embargo campaign contributions go to both parties.

No Castro - no political fundraising based on the exploitation of the confrontation.

[Unknown Known]

8. Who keeps Castro in power?

Of course, we all thought Castro's connections to Soviet Union kept him in power, but now I realize that was probably never true.

The only explanation I can come up with now is that Castro is just another Noriega or Hussein - a puppet - and that Cuba must be a huge base of drug operations - bringing drugs through Cuba from other parts of the world.

I know someone who works for US drug enforcement and they are always sending him to Guantanamo.

The bushes have always been involved with drug smuggling. This is the only explanation I can come up with and the only one that makes sense because it all revolves around economics - whose making money.

As long as Castro behaves himself, he will remain in power, unlike Noriega who believed his own bullshit and tried to fuck over his masters.

[Mika]

15. Castro isn't "in power". The Cuban people are

In 1976 Cubans voted in a new constitution.

Cuba's representative democracy is a variant parliamentary system.

I was in Cuba during the 1997-98 election season.

Here are some of the major parties in Cuba. The union parties hold the majority of seats in the Assembly.

http://www.gksoft.com/govt/en/cu.html

* Partido Comunista de Cuba (PCC) {Communist Party of Cuba}
* Partido Demócrata Cristiano de Cuba (PDC) {Christian Democratic Party of Cuba} - Oswaldo Paya's Catholic party
* Partido Solidaridad Democrática (PSD) {Democratic Solidarity Party}
* Partido Social Revolucionario Democrático Cubano {Cuban Social Revolutionary Democratic Party}
* Coordinadora Social Demócrata de Cuba (CSDC) {Social Democratic Coordination of Cuba}
* Unión Liberal Cubana {Cuban Liberal Union}

Plenty of info on this long thread,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=6300&forum=DCForumID70


http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm

This system in Cuba is based upon universal adult suffrage for all those aged 16 and over. Nobody is excluded from voting, except convicted criminals or those who have left the country. Voter turnouts have usually been in the region of 95% of those eligible .

There are direct elections to municipal, provincial and national assemblies, the latter represent Cuba's parliament.

Electoral candidates are not chosen by small committees of political parties. No political party, including the Communist Party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates.

--

Representative Fidel Castro was elected to the National Assembly as a representative of District #7 Santiago de Cuba.
He is one of the elected 607 representatives in the Cuban National Assembly. It is from that body that the head of state is nominated and then elected. Raul Castro, Carlos Large, and Ricardo Alarcon and others were among the nominated last year. President Castro has been elected to that position since 1976.

http://www.bartleby.com/65/do/Dorticos.html

Dorticós Torrado, Osvaldo

1919–83, president of Cuba (1959–76). A prosperous lawyer, he participated in Fidel Castro’s revolutionary movement and was imprisoned (1958). He escaped and fled to Mexico, returning to Cuba after Castro’s triumph (1959). As minister of laws (1959) he helped to formulate Cuban policies. He was appointed president in 1959. Intelligent and competent, he wielded considerable influence. In 1976 the Cuban government was reorganized, and Castro assumed the title of president; Dorticós was named a member of the council of state.

The Cuban government was reorganized (approved by popular vote) into a variant parliamentary system in 1976.

The real "power" in Cuba rests in the elected parliament. Ricardo Alarcon is the elected president of the parliament.

You can read a short version of the Cuban system here,
http://members.attcanada.ca/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html#Democracy

Or a long and detailed version here,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0968508405/qid=1053879619/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-8821757-1670550?v=glance&s=books

[Unknown Known]

24. 95% voter turnout? Immediately, my cynical antennae go up on that one

Mind you, I'm all for opening up Cuba and ending the embargo. I'm just very cynical about all the information we get about Cuba & Castro from both sides of the aisle.

The arguments on both sides are so extreme - either it's the people who believe Castro is the worst dictator who ever lived and Cuba is still Communist posing as a democracy, OR it's the people who think Cuba is the most democratic country in the western hemisphere.

I don't believe either. I think there's more to it than this. There's something that smells rotten in the state of Cuba, and it leads right back to the US, but I have no evidence to prove it.

If the Cuban people are so free and democratic, why don't they kick out the US presence in Guantanamo - that place is a disgrace and now there's Gitmo on top of what's already there. Why does the DEA send it's agents to Guantanamo?

Why doesn't the present Cuban govt do more to make amends with Cuban Americans?

There's just something not right about all this and I think it goes beyond the Bay of Pigs 40+ years ago.

1)Why doesn't the US legalize drugs? Because too many certain people in US are making big money off the illegal trade.

2)Why doesn't US lift the Cuban embargo? I believe the answer is the same as #1

[sandnsea]

54. Is this sarcasm?

The Cuban people are in power? You don't really believe that do you?

[Osolomia]

59. Why do you think you're not free to go and judge for yourself?

I too happened to visit Cuba during one of its elections when the USA was still insisting that Cuba didn't have elections. On visits during the "special period" local farmers and fisherman and their wives explained to me their input on dealing with the situation. The country wouldn't have survived otherwise. Cuba has a grassroots system the likes of which others can only dream of:

Democracy in Cuba and the 1997-98 Elections, By Arnold August
A review by Jennifer Wager

Defining democracy can prove a contentious task, but in his recently published book, Canadian author Arnold August uses an old and rather simple source: Abraham Lincoln's description of democracy as "rule by the people, for the people." Having a working definition, August then sets out to empirically document the Cuban democratic system.

Make no mistake, however, this is no Western travalogue, dragging along a "white man's burden" to validate or denigrate its Third World subject. August is an explicitly anti-imperialist scholar, with a rigor that might make a WEB. Du Bois nod approvingly. The author instead aims to describe the Cuban democratic process for a North American audience that knows little or nothing about the island nation.

... The historical chapters give North American readers an idea of Cubans' strong desire for freedom and democracy and how this desire was forged in the long and bitter struggles for independence — first from Spain, then from the US. The historical background exposes the oft-told lie that what Cuba needs -- what Cubans want now -- is US style capitalist democracy. August deftly proves that Cuba has already "been there, done that" during its half-century tenure as a US neo-colony, when US corporations ruled the island and Cuban
dictators, including the hated Machado and Batista, where hand-picked by US powerbrokers in Washington and New York. In addition, August includes an entire chapter dedicated to explaining Cuban the "perfecting" and "rectification" process and the reforms that Cuba made during the 1990s to deal with the simultaneous effects of the tightening of the US blockade and the fall of the formerly Socialist countries of Eastern Europe.

After almost two years researching the book and one year writing it, August paints a detailed picture of a system that works from the ground up -- from the neighborhood level, where candidates are nominated block by block. August made his study a comprehensive one, by actively observing the elections process in both the city (the municipality of Plaza de la Revolucion in Havana) and the countryside (in the province of Cienfuegos). Indeed, the author lived with a delegate to assembly representing the municipality of Plaza de la Revolucion, one of 15 municipalities that comprise Havana. Each municipality has their own assembly.

More...
http://www.ifconews.org/cudemocracy.html

[Billy Burnett]

65. I've been to Cuba also, and, yes, the Cuban people do run Cuba

The Cuban people are in power? You don't really believe that do you?

Having been to Cuba several times ... yes. Upon what are you basing your opinion?

It's a crime that Americans aren't allowed to travel to Cuba to see this and learn this, and, therefore, remain so ignorant about the real Cuba. But, that's the goal of the anti Cuba-ists, and it is made all the easier by the travel ban - a rights infringement that Americans seem too damn willing to accept.

Both Osolomia and Mika are correct. :hi: Cubans do vote for their representatives, and they have the power to recall any of their reps every six months. Between sessions of parliament all reps participate "accountability meetings" with their constituents. If a majority of constituents in that district disapprove of their rep, by secret ballot, then they call a new election which has to take place within six weeks.

As has been asked many times on DU ... Do you really think that Cubans would accept dictatorship for 40 years in light of their proven performance against a brutal Batista dictatorship that was fully backed by the US government and US organized crime empires? Do you really think that a Cuban dictatorship has forced one of the western hemisphere's best universal health care and education system on the good people of Cuba?

It just doesn't stand up to reason, even from afar, to believe that Cubans suffer a dictatorship ... and there's just too much proof on the island that they don't.

[lumpy]

28. Fidel Catro is a puppet?

That is really laughable. Castro is a national hero for releasing Cubans from a despicable dictator owned by filthy rich landowners.
That Island has been struggling to stay afloat on their own. No other nation is running their show. They have managed to stay independent for years since Russia could no longer afford to help them and inspite of the US and Cuban expatriot's attempts to kill Castro and topple the government. You have to admire the tenacity of the Cuban people against all odds.

[Unknown Known]

29. Read post #25

I'm not talking about Castro in the beginning, for pete's sake. And this has nothing to do with Batista. You make Cuba sound like it's the greatest nation in the world!

[Unknown Known]

34. Castro 'does not oppose' US prison at Guantanamo says BBC

Say what? Castro doesn't mind Gitmo at Guantanamo? And why is that?

Cuban President Fidel Castro has surprised visiting US senators by not opposing a US proposal to house suspected al-Qaeda members at an American base on the island.

Senators Arlen Specter and Lincoln Chafee said the Cuban leader had ratified a communique saying his government had not yet decided on its stance on the plan to build a secure prison at the Guantanamo Bay naval base on Cuba's southeastern tip.

"Had there been an adverse reaction... you would have heard it loud and clear and instantaneously," said Mr Specter after a six and a half hour meeting with Mr Castro.

O, and just look at what else Mr. Castro has to say...

Mr Castro also reiterated previous offers to work with the US to combat drug trafficking and expressed general willingness to co-operate in the war against terror.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1743562.stm

Can you say PUPPET?

[lumpy]

109. Guantanamo as you probably know is leased

from Cuba and there has been discussion as to what the legalities are concerning operations in Guantanamo by the US and what part Cuba has to play in those operations. The lease agreement gives the US the right to exercise complete jurisdiction and control over the territory. Perhaps Castro is not in a position or is reluctant to avoid a confrontation over the legality of the US decision to build "Gitmo". After all, I understand this is not the first time Guantanamo has been used as a detention center by the US. I fail to interpret this as a reason to claim that Cuba is a puppet of the US or any othr country.
So according to the article Castro has agreed to cooperate in the combat against drug traficking and to cooperate in the war against terrorism. Does this make Castro a US puppet also as well as other countries who have agreed to pursue to these ends?
Why Mr. Specter should be surprised is no surprise to me. He is speaking for propaganda reasons I suspect.
I fail to understand you point in the posting of this news report.
Sorry I haven't responded to your post earlier. I do have other commitments.

[ulysses]

11. they're just so square. n/t

[salin]

12. some folks even think die-ing is an answer

(as in "snake eyes"!) ;-)

[ulysses]

14. and we've really boxed ourselves in on the issue.

:D

[salin]

16. or in a more positive light... we have cornered the market

:D

[ulysses]

17. but do we have the right angle on the thing?

;-)

[Mika]

13. America doesn't hate Cuba

Most Americans know jack shit about Cuba. They don't hate Cuba - they're just ignorant.

Those who have been to Cuba generally say how surprised they were at how happy the Cuban people are, and how their community lifestyles are much less stressful than that in the USA. Americans return home having discovered that they have fallen in love with Cuba, and the Cuban way of life (Cubañia), stunned that Cubans vote for their representatives on local and national levels. Cubans aren't eternally chasing the almighty dollar. Cubans cherish their children and it is reflected in their school system, child care, and health care systems.

It is the American oligarchs (and ex Cuban oligarchs) who "hate" Cuba. But they use the artificial confrontation, that is propped up by 40+ years of US/übercapitalist propaganda, for political gain.

[CatWoman]

18. Hey!!! what do you have against Cube????

[Cleita]

19. I remember when Castro came to power.

The Cuban government was very corrupt and Castro was a kind of hero living the life of a guerilla to fight injustice etc. Some American adventurers joined him in the fight and the majority of Americans followed the rebels exploits with glee. But remember in these times, people were very paranoid about Communism and Castro was a Communist.

When he gained power he seized and nationalized all the plantations, most of which were owned by Americans and British. That's when America turned on him and he turned to Russia, a mistress that I feel he had regrets getting into bed with. By this time the die was cast and Castro never turned back on his philosophy even after the collapse of Soviet Russia.

[Osolomia]

47. America's Yanqui Fidelistas

Miami Herald - January 10, 1999

Four decades ago, a handful of naive American boys ran off to Cuba in
search of adventure and an ideal worth dying for. They certainly
found adventure, and some believe they found an ideal. But what they
also acquired was a label, a brand, they wear now and for the rest of
their lives -- yanqui fidelistas.

There is no rum-and-rumba version of the American Legion, no Vietnam
memorial for these veterans of the Fidel Castro's revolution. Many of
them kept their exploits secret even from family members, or enlisted
in the U.S. military and never mentioned their rebel past to their
fellow GIs.

Even Cuba -- which in 1997 buried the newly recovered bones of
Argentine Che Guevara with full military honors -- officially ignores
them. Che was immortalized. These old gringos are another matter.

Don Soldini of Fort Lauderdale was a kid in search of a good cause
who is now a millionaire with a cream-colored Rolls-Royce. Two other
Florida men -- Mike Garvey and Chuck Ryan -- were teenagers when they
ran away from home at Guantanamo naval base to join Fidel at the
birth of the revolution. Neill Macaulay, a retired University of
Florida professor, became a rebel lieutenant and trained a firing
squad.

Nowadays, they are middle-aged grandfathers who mostly vote
Republican. But they still believe they did the right thing.

Much, much more...
http://www.blythe.org/nytransfer-subs/Covert_Actions/America's_Yanqui_Fidelistas

[Judi Lynn]

118. That link didn't work, for some reason. This one should.

I read the story a long time ago, when it still had photos of the young American "Fidelistas," and decided to scan it again, as it's really interesting. Saw the link isn't working, so try this one:

http://www.blythe.org/nytransfer-subs/Covert_Actions/America's_Yanqui_Fidelistas

I thought it was very interesting that one of the "lads" was a kid of someone who worked at Guantanamo. Their experiences would make a terrific movie.

Thanks, Osolomia.

On edit:

Uh, oh. My link's not working also. I'll rummage around and see how to get another approach to this story.

On edit:

Great, I've got it. (:bounce:)

http://www.fiu.edu/~fcf/yanquifidelistas.html

[bobbieinok]

131. I was in college in Houston when Castro came to the US

What I remember from that time....

He asked for help from the US.

He spoke at the UN.

He got NO help from US.

He turned to the Soviet Union for help and got it.

[Osolomia]

20. Miami's "exiles" and US pols benefit from their hatemongering of Cuba

because it’s a mutli-zillion dollar industry of US government NED and USAID grants and political campaign contributions to and from both parties.

And because for decades the US government has used the CIA trained Miami-Cubano “exiles” to do their covert dirty work from Viet Nam to Nicaragua and points in between, hence the steadfast commitment of all US presidential candidates to pander to the USA’s own terrorists to this day with the silent complicity of the electorate.

How else to explain the extremist right wing minority positions of the 2004 presidential candidates opposed to the bipartisan majority from Florida to Washington who want the embargo lifted now?

The fact that so many DUhers chose to dwell on the typo instead of the question is a large part of the problem.

[sweetheart]

21. everybody knows cuba killed kennedy

? It seems that the missile crisis can never be forgiven, though certainly russia has forgiven turkey for its similar crime.

The cuba-castro hate is that a nation can rebuff american imperialism and succeed... whereas weaker neighbors like haiti and jamaica are corrupted by the very "free market imperialism" that cuba rebuffs.

I have to go visit there to see for myself. Just, there's a long list of countries i'd rather see than an overpopulated island.

[Osolomia]

27. Declassified documents show Kennedy's assassination thwarted hopes of Cuba

Kennedy's assassination thwarted hopes of Cuba reconciliation
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=240796

Cuba is the experience of a lifetime, travel banned Americans still don't know what they're missing.

[guajira]

39. Cuba is not Overpopulated

The island is almost 1000 miles long. Havana is the largest city with 2 million. The 2nd largest city on the island is Santiago de Cuba, a 2-day drive from Havana, on the eastern end of the island, with fewer than a million. (The 2nd largest Cuban city is Miami!)

Cuba has a lot of farmland, several mountain ranges, miles of coastline with white beaches and clear blue water, rain forest, swamps loaded with wildlife. It is truly a beautiful country, not over-developed even on the resort peninsula of Varadero.

[Faygo Kid]

23. High literacy rate?

Cuba has a very high literacy rate. Unlike this post. Sorry, but if you want to trigger a discussion, you can do better.

[Ksec]

25. Its a corporate thing

They want Cuba. Theyre drooling over Cubas money making exploitations.

Castro tells them to shove their corrupt corporations where the sun dont shine. They hate that .

[Osolomia]

33. Then how do you account for this steady stream of reports

that a simple Google news search turns up in a blink of an eye?

Port Manatee signs Cuba trade pact
Bradenton Herald, FL - 20 Nov 2003
... A US-Cuba trade expert said Cuba is making such clauses a prerequisite
of doing, and maintaining, business relations with the country. ...

Shipment could open up regular Tampa-to-Cuba trade
Sarasota Herald-Tribune, FL - 13 Nov 2003
... cargo shipments since the United States installed a trade embargo more than four
decades ago, said Daniel J. Fernandez, president of US-Cuba Trade Consultants. ...


US businesses increasing presence in Cuban economy
Washington Times, DC - 16 hours ago
... The US embargo against Cuba is a political argument rather than an economic
penalty, said Daniel Fernandez, president of US-Cuba Trade Consultants. ...


US Companies Sign Cuba Trade Deals
High Plains Journal, KS - 11 Nov 2003
... The figure includes insurance, shipping and other fees. Cuba held formal signing
ceremonies for what in other conditions would be routine deals. ...


Idaho , Washington continue to ship food to Castro ’ s Cuba
IdahoStatesman.com, ID - 10 hours ago
LEWISTON — Although the US Senate recently slammed shut a bid to open the doors
of tourism and trade with Cuba, Northwest farmers continue to wedge open a ...


Bauer seeks Cuba export opportunities
Charleston Post Courier (subscription), SC - 7 hours ago
... Other states have discussed trade with Cuba, and North Carolina did at least $48,000
in business with the communist state last year, according to Export.gov. ...
Lt. Gov. Bauer plans economic development trip to Cuba - WIS
and more »

Kansas groups in favor of trade with Cuba
Granma International, Cuba - 28 Nov 2003
... the US blockade has failed and that their country should seek a rapprochement with
Cuba ... secretary for Kansas, said that he would like to return to secure trade ...

A shot in the arm?: Cuba's biotech industry raises hope, ...
Seattle Times, WA - 28 Nov 2003
... US licensing for this technology will depend on government approval, including a
license from the US Treasury's office that enforces trade sanctions on Cuba. ...

America's Sugar Daddies
New York Times - 18 hours ago
... years has been to lobby not just against liberalization of the sugar trade ... the ambitious
$8 billion Everglades restoration project.) The Fanjuls had been Cuba's ...

Carlsbad biotech seeks deal for Cuban cancer drug
San Diego Union Tribune, CA - 26 Nov 2003
... John Kavulich, president of the US-Cuba Trade and Economic Council, said several
US companies and research hospitals are exploring potential licensing ...

Much more...
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&edition=us&q=Cuba+trade&btnG=Search+News

[Ksec]

66. Didnt say they were all stopped but

Castro isnt a stupid man. Im sure hes gonna let some in. BUT HES NOT ABOUT TO LET THEM CORRUPT THE ECONOMY AND THE POLITICOS LIKE THEYVE DONE HERE.

[Osolomia]

73. Point is, the corporations do not explain Americans' hostility

to Cuba to this day.

[arewethereyet]

26. Castro is the last of the Communist leaders, they hate him not Cuba

and are correct to do so IMO. Obviously not all agree which is fine.

[Unknown Known]

30. What about China? North Korea?

We do lots of business with these countries. And don't say we don't do business with N. Korea, please!

[arewethereyet]

32. No Mao, no whoever was in charge of NK, no focal point

and neither one is within small craft distance of us. For starters. I did say that they hated CASTRO, no Cuba.

[Scott Lee]

31. It's Cold War era ego remains. The right laps this up like mamas milk

It defies rational explanation. A 40 plus year old economic embargo on a tiny island nation, that is no threat in any way to the USA. A mighty nation that seeks to destroy this tiny island.

Why? If the "patriots" who so brutalize this little place are so confident that Cuba's system is so wrong and decrepit, why don't they leave them alone and let nature take it's course? Could it be that the "patriots" deep down don't believe their own manure? Why the incessant assault on Cuba?

Because the USA cannot stomach the thought that all of their economic might couldn't destroy her. Regardless of what the rightwing press reports, Cuba has survived and guess what else - in majority the Cubans still LOVE their Revolution.

Viva Cuba. Viva La Gente Cubana. Viva La Revolucion.

[Osolomia]

35. Dems lap it up to this day too!

The Senate voted 59-36 and the House voted 227-188 to lift the travel ban but still pandering to the extremist minority are:

Democratic Presidential Candidates on Cuba
http://www.lawg.org/pages/new%20pages/Misc/prez-candidates1A.htm

[Scott Lee]

50. Dean and I disagree on this one. Applause for Kucinich.

When you're right, you're right. Good on ya, Dennis.

[camero]

36. American ego thing

It just burst some people's bubbles that there is a communist country just 90 miles from our shores.

[lumpy]

37. The US government would like to have Cuba in the

palm of it's hands like Mexico. This destroys the US ability to have any country south of the border under our watchful control. By the US continuing to treat Cuba as a pariah guarantees there is no chance of Cuba's Latin neighbors taking the steps to be independent of the repressive governments so many of those countries are subject to. Why do you suppose we meddle in so many government affairs in So.America.
Subjected populations are no threat to gaining true democracy and the continuing spread of capitalism. The US is on the road to experiencing this type of control if the US capitalists manage to revise the US Constitution and we lose rights guaranteed to us by the Constitution. Many rightests freeper types claim that this was supposed to be a capitalistic nation and insist it should not be otherwise.

[guajira]

38. US/Cuba Policy is Controlled by Miami Batistianos

They receive approx. $28,000,000.00 per year to operate Radio/TV Marti and anti-Castro groups get millions more of our tax dollars! Hating Castro is BIG business in Miami.

Cuban "exiles" lobby continually to keep Americans out of Cuba, but they fly directly to Havana from Miami, stay in hotels, spend as much money as they want going to shows and restaurants. They send and carry billions of dollars to their relatives every year.

Meanwhile our LYING pResident claims he forbids Americans from going there because he doesn't want us to spend money in Cuba! The actual reason he wants to keep Americans out of Cuba is to get the votes and campaign funds from Repuke Miami Cubans, especially with an election coming up.

Cubans on the island want the embargo and travel ban to end, and so do most Americans!

[Osolomia]

40. How many Dems and DUers support regime change in Cuba?

Therein lies another reason why Americans are still trade and travel banned and like it that way.

[Scott Lee]

51. US: Hands OFF The Cuban Revolution.

Plain and simple.

[Osolomia]

53. Then why do the 2004 Dem presidential candidates support the Bush doctrine

Why? Why did they not support lifting the travel ban when the House and Senate voted on it last month for example?

What do the people in Cuba think about your embargo? Do you really think you're doing them a favor by maintaining it?

[youngred]

56. Dennis Kucinich doesn't

I don't think we're doing them a favour, and if you'll notice many here are in favour of lifting the ban and normalizing relations

[Osolomia]

61. "Many"? How much does the "unelectable" Kucinich count?

Obviously many more are being silently complicit with the Bush doctrine than they care to admit or else they would have supported the bipartisan majority to form a veto proof vote for freedom to travel and trade and be campaigning for instead of against it don't you think?

[youngred]

63. I don't see what you're talking about at DU

when Cuba threads come up there are many voices in support and few in opposition. Since the prevailing propaganda is against Cuba that is not surprising. However, your broad-brush denunciations do very little to help anything.

You said none of the candidates were against the ban which isn't true, and I NEVER called Kucinich unelectable, some others did. I think he's the best candidate in the field and if given half a chance would be very electable.

[Osolomia]

67. So Dean, Clark, Kerry, Edwards are NOT representative of their supporters?

Yeah right.

[youngred]

68. what the hell are you talking about?

They are representative of some of their supporters. All supporters do not agree with their candidates on all issues.

What is your problem? you're majing little to no sense, but you sure seem angry

[Osolomia]

74. Keep on spinning in the wind

whenever the pathetic excuses are challenged and see where it gets the Dems, especially in the farm states!

[youngred]

76. keep attacking friends and allies and watch as they dissapear

instead of being so indignant and abusive perhaps you might engage in a thoughtful response that is longer than one line?

[Osolomia]

77. Not much point when you keep twisting what's being said

in typical gusano fashion.

[youngred]

79. WTF are you talking about

I'm not twisting anything. I haven't even talked about the issues behind the embargo except in my first post. Nice to insult in spanish too.

Why don't you post a reply to me with more than one sentence and doesn't contain an insult?

I may be spinning (but I really doubt I am since I AGREE WITH YOU), but you just plain can't argue with any kind of logic or coherence. Oh, and being belligerent doesn't count as an argument

[Osolomia]

80. You say the majority of Dems support lifting the embargo

but that it would be "political suicide" to actually do so and can't explain what "sacrifice" you insist it would entail. I call that a pathetic excuse for the extremist minority positions of the 2004 Democratic presidential candidates and you find that offensive.

So much for democracy gusano style.

[youngred]

82. Nope, I NEVER said that

stop misrepresenting my opinion.

You said all DUers were against Cuba, and in favour of sanctions. I disagreed saying there were many here in favour of removing them and please don't paint us all with such a broad brush. I said that most AMERICANS were in favour of sanctions and that is why it is very difficult for most democrats to vote to oppose sanctions, becuase it would cost them in their next election. If the dems lost over the Cuba issue (or any issue) this leads to Republican domination, and we can all see that that is most emphatically NOT what we want as progressives and liberals.

Work on your reading comprehension, I did not say any of what you accused me of saying.

What I found offensive was your attitude

[Osolomia]

83. If "most AMERICANS were in favour of sanctions" as you claim

then why did an overwhelming MAJORITY in both the House and Senate vote to lift the travel ban last month?

What part of "the MAJORITY of Americans want the embargo lifted" don't you understand in order to defend your pathetic excuse for the Dem candidates extremist minority positions?

Seems to me you've got this whole issue ass backwards.

[youngred]

85. again, what the hell are you talking about

either I'm not being clear enough or you've got me boxed in and refuse to listen.

I support Kucinich, and one of the reasons I do is his strog opposition to the embargo.

if the majority in the house and senate voted to life the ban why are you claiming they're all opposed to Cuba and in favour of sanctions.

seems to me you can't keep things straight either

[Osolomia]

89. The House, the Senate, and most State legislatures have voted

to lift the trade and travel ban against Cuba but 99.99% of the Dem prez contenders still support maintaining the sanctions:

Democratic Presidential Candidates on Cuba
http://www.lawg.org/pages/new%20pages/Misc/prez-candidates1A.htm

How do you account for the Dem candidates' minority position in opposition to the majority? Do they or do they not represent their supporters opinions?

[youngred]

93. I've already discussed your inane point about the presidential candidates

I account for it by saying the majority of Americans would be in opposition to such a policy and you can think what you want but you and I are in the minority in our opposition to cuban sanctions.

I don't know what each of the candidates supporters feel about cuba as I haven't seen an polls going through candidate by candidate to see their feeling.

This argument is tired and contributes nothing to the discussion originally posted (which you criticize so many on this thread for not sticking to)

[Mika]

95. Why don't you read the link Osolo posted

Just do it.

http://www.lawg.org/pages/new%20pages/Misc/prez-candidates1A.htm

[youngred]

96. OK

I did, nothing I didn't already know. Some Dems toadie and change their opinion based on what they think they need to win. Not unusual for a politican at all. But hardly the 99.9% he suggested and not a question pertaining to the discussion given his original insult to all DUers and then spin to include all Americans and then outright attacks and hostile attitude towards someone who agrees with them.

[Osolomia]

97. The MAJORITY of Americans want the sanctions lifted

a very simple fact that DUers ought to know full well by now.

All but one of the Dem candidates support maintaining the embargo which raises the serious questions that the original poster asked that so many DUhers have done their darndest to avoid a straight answer. Go figure.

[youngred]

99. hardly

show me one poll that says the majority of americans want that. Go ahead. Try and produce one.

Its hardly that they have tried to avoid the answer as is evidenced by other threads. See Salin's excellent response to Billy below to see why all the sarcasm and wise-cracking occur, its not to avoid the question at all.

I gave a straight answer at the start of the thread....why do you persist in attacking me?

[Osolomia]

102. You'll find the results of the MAJORITY votes in the House and Senate

last month at http://thomas.loc.gov

The links and detailed results have been posted many a time on DU but obviously you chose to ignore them.

In the past couple of months alone hundreds of editorials from all across the country have been posted on DU but evidently you prefer to ignore those too, along with the thousands of articles about Americans going to Cuba and signing multi-million dollar deals whether the extremist "exiles" and their dino friends like it or not.

Many a link to polls have been posted too, but obviously ignored in typical gusano fashion. What a shame.

[youngred]

105. yawn

stop with the gusano shit. because thats what it is

You said americans, not legislators, post me a poll of that if you want to prove your point, otherwise I have to go on what I see everyday and the polls I have seen in the past.

I didn't "choose" to ignore anything. This is a topic of great interest to me and had I noticed them I would most certainly have stepped in and commented. Hundreds of editorials and thousands of articles??? I severly doubt that. There are thousands of threads posted to DU total, and the Cuba threads are an exceedingly small minority of what is posted at DU. Also, I do not usually have a lot of time to check DU (today is an aberration) and so very rarely venture forth from GD and the lounge. Hardly what one would call ignoring. SO I severly resent your assumptions about me.

[Osolomia]

107. Still in a state of denial about why the MAJORITY of legislators

voted to lift the travel ban for the 4th year on a row. Pathetic!

Do a search of DU for other polls, the links have been posted time and time and time and time and time and time again.

You'll find the hundreds of editorials from recent weeks posted within the hundreds of relevant news articles on LBN.

[youngred]

110. You know what

I don't care anymore. Believe what you want about me, I know differently and that's fine.

You are just too obnoxious to deal with, congratulations on driving away someone who is always supportive of your agenda. with a bad attitude and worse comprehension

[Osolomia]

112. More pathetic excuses for ignoring the mountain of evidence

of MAJORITY support for lifting the emabargo and clinging to your fantasy of being a "minority" in order to justify so many Dem candidates pandering to the Miami mafia deserves all the criticism it can get.

[youngred]

113. Bullshit

but that's expected. I see the evidence. afraid you don't

you say the majority of americans are for it, but claim the majority of DUers aren't...logical inconsistancies abound in your posts there is just no dealing with such arrogance

[Osolomia]

114. I gave you undeniable evidence of where the MAJORITY stand

and where the Democratic candidates stand. Where's your evidence that only a "minority" of Americans support lifting the sanctions as you would like us to believe?

[Osolomia]

115. Still can't find any links to corroborate your 'minority' fantasy eh?

No wonder!

[Osolomia]

116. Here's a slew of links on the opinion polls

http://www.google.com/custom?q=Cuba+poll&sa=Google+Search&cof=T%3A%23000066%3BALC%3A%23FF0000%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fciponline.org%2Fciplogo.jpg%3BLC%3A%23003399%3BBGC%3A%23FFFFFF%3BAH%3Acenter%3BVLC%3A%23205040%3BS%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fciponline.org%3BAWFID%3A5056d348b1629302%3B&domains=ciponline.org&sitesearch=ciponline.org

There's no excuse for DUers ignorance of reality and clinging to cold war fantasies despite a mountain of evidence at your fingertips.

[Osolomia]

117. No point in providing links to the hundreds of editorials

since obviously you prefer to shoot the messenger than listen to what the MAJORITY across the USA are saying.

[youngred]

129. Oh shove off man

you're just being an asshole now

[Osolomia]

132. It's very typical of gusanos to resort to personal attacks

when the well documented facts disprove their progaganda.

You chose to ignore the well documented facts and shoot the messenger instead. What do you call that?

[youngred]

141. I'm not spouting any propaganda

and I don't understand why you persist in attacking me when I've expressed nothing but support for your position.

I call you that because you're behaving exceedingly childishly, and if I do recall you're the one who called me a gusano before I EVER said anything about you....so how about that?

as for well documented facts, you've thrown out a google search link (the height of quality research I'm sure) and a link over and over to information with which I already agreed with you on.

I'm not shooting the messenger, but you're shooting your allies...nice work

[Osolomia]

143. You're spouting bullshit

If you were as interested in this topic as you claim to be you would know where the MAJORITY in the USA stand on this issue. Your pretzel logic that it would be "political suicide" and a "sacrifice" for the Dem party to support the MAJORITY instead of pandering to the Miami Cubano Batistastiano minority in the country won't win any votes in this neck of the woods or in over 38 farm states that want the embargo lifted now. Is that what you want?

[Mika]

145. What kind of "allies" give up easily?

youngred, :hi: sheesh.. don't get so wound up about it. (Y'know.. move along. LOL)

Just as you have said, we can't all agree 100% on a single platform.

There's plenty more US/Cuba issues to discuss rather than dwelling on a single point with a single poster.

Osolo and I had a real tiff a while ago, but we kissed and made up and moved along in the best interests of our mutual interest.. US/Cuba relations and its relationship to the Dem party.

Hang in there pal, we need ya. You'll see.. Osolo is a fantastic contributor to the discussion, and challenges us to reanalyze our posts and positions. Thanks for that, Osolo. :thumbsup:

[Osolomia]

135. Just a "minority" eh? Get real!!!

As long as travel ban to Cuba is enforced, Americans aren't free

Athens Banner-Herald, Georgia
Tuesday, December 2, 2003.

Though it sits only 90 miles off the coast of Florida, Cuba is kept far out of reach to the vast majority of Americans by a misguided and failed federal policy.

... Instituted four decades ago to isolate and punish Fidel Castro's communist regime, the Cuban travel ban is now viewed by many to be an antiquated and hypocritical Cold War hangover which infringes on American civil liberties and tarnishes the United States' international image. After all, how can a country claim to be the world's beacon of democracy and freedom while at the same time tell its citizens where they can and cannot travel?

... Fear of election reprisals from the powerful Cuban-American voting bloc in Florida, which supports this and other anti-Castro policies, long has kept leaders in the Republican and Democratic parties from addressing the travel ban.

... In September, the U.S. House voted 227-188 to bar the Treasury Department from enforcing the travel ban. The Senate followed this lead by a vote of 59-36.

... But, as often happens, election-year politics have a way of making exceptions to the rules. Despite its bipartisan support in Congress, the amendment was quietly stripped from the bill by White House allies.

... Florida's electoral votes are considered key to the president's re-election, and keeping the Cuban-American community happy is seen as key to winning Florida. In the end, it seems Bush and his allies were unwilling to put a good policy before election-year politics.

While American troops fight for freedom abroad, it is shameful to watch our national leaders continue restricting it at home.

http://www.onlineathens.com/stories/120203/opi_20031202001.shtml

And DUers and their leaders still don't get it. What a pathetic shame.

[Mika]

98. I don't think that its an insult

Osolomia posted many alert threads, w/phone numbers and email addresses on the (then) upcoming votes in both houses to almost no avail.

The threads sank like a stone despite the best efforts to keep the threads kicked by the four or five of us who openly support Cuba's sovereignty here at DU.

Barely a remark to be had by DUers. That was an insult.


Sad, but true.






Billy has invited me to a WP meetup.. I think I might check it out. The pandering Dems (except Kucinich), as they are, are sickening me.

[youngred]

100. Well

I'm sorry, but I would have been very interested in those threads and if I had been on DU or in GD (I was taking breaks for other reasons) I would most certainly have posted.

I can understand the frustration but no need to misrepresent me and what I'm saying

[Billy Burnett]

103. Hey youngred

Thanks for being a supporter of Cuba, no matter how incremental.

Thanks for being interested in Cuba issues.

I have many friends who live in Cuba and I know that they would thank anyone who has an open mind and who is willing to take other opinions into consideration when it comes to US/Cuba relations.

[youngred]

106. I am glad to be a supporter

the US policys is abysmal and archaic and completely unecessary. I would love to end some of the suffering of the Cuban people, not through overthrowing their democraticly elected goverment but through lifting the sanctions.

BTW, Workers World is great! :-)

[Billy Burnett]

101. Right on, Mika.

I've argued with DUers for a couple of years now (I have more than 2000 posts, but a DU 1 software glitch erased my total post count).

I've tried to point out how detrimental the Cuban "exile" former oligarchs have negatively impacted American democracy only to be told by DUers that 'it's no big deal', or 'I don't have a dog in that hunt", or 'Cuban-Americans are all republicans' etc. I won't go into the amount of posts by DUers (with hundreds or thousands of posts) who espouse the overthrow of the Cuban government by the USA.

I'd say that DU is pretty representative of America when it comes to Cuba... Ignorant.



(Mika, check your du mail)


www.ypsl.org

[Judi Lynn]

121. My state was very close to completing a resolution to end the embargo

It was derailed when the Cuban "exile" in the House derailed it by pitching his fit, and as usually happens when someone goes infantile, people are caught off guard, and he/she gets his way. They dispense with niceties, and start shouting and waving their arms around and questioning people's loyalties, etc, etc. You know the drill. God knows we've seen it enough from the Florida Representatives, Lincoln Diaz-Balart, Mario Diaz-Balart, and Ileana Ros-Lehtinen.

It's not likely to go the same way for him next time, I'll betcha. I think the more adult members will get their business done.


EGADS!
Rep. Mario Goico, R-Wichita

Now here's a REAL fella:


He's 87, and going strong. The World's Foremost Authority, Professor Irwin Corey!

[Osolomia]

138. "Never said that" eh? Then how do you account for this?

youngred (1000+ posts) Sun Nov-30-03 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #13

14. What do you want us all to do?


There is only so much that can be done, and a principled stand is political suicide until this country changes its thinking on Latin America in general and Cuba Specifically.


youngred (1000+ posts) Sun Nov-30-03 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #18

19. not really


would you rather sacrifice EVERYTHING else, every other issue on the spectrum for Cuba. As much as I want change our Cuban policy I can't sacrifice everything else.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=797479#798730

[youngred]

142. do you have problems with reading comprehension

I'm not trying to be rude here, but that has nothing to do with what I posted above.

This is ridiculous

[Osolomia]

144. Try looking at the facts before jumping to ignorant conclusions!

youngred (1000+ posts) Sun Nov-30-03 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #13

14. What do you want us all to do?
There is only so much that can be done, and a principled stand is political suicide until this country changes its thinking on Latin America in general and Cuba Specifically.

youngred (1000+ posts) Sun Nov-30-03 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #18

19. not really
would you rather sacrifice EVERYTHING else, every other issue on the spectrum for Cuba. As much as I want change our Cuban policy I can't sacrifice everything else.

Osolomia (1000+ posts) Sun Nov-30-03 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #79

80. You say the majority of Dems support lifting the embargo
but that it would be "political suicide" to actually do so and can't explain what "sacrifice" you insist it would entail….

youngred (1000+ posts) Sun Nov-30-03 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #80

82. Nope, I NEVER said that
stop misrepresenting my opinion.

---

Your denial of reality about what the MAJORITY are saying is what is ridiculous. No wonder the Dems keep losing.

Applying your gusano style pretzel logic to the current situation Sen. Max Baucus (D) is also an “asshole” for trying to tell you the same thing so you refuse to listen or pay attention to what anyone but CANF is saying:

In a statement last week, Senator Max Baucus (D-MT) said "Suspending enforcement of the Cuba travel ban passed the Senate by a wide bipartisan margin and passed the House by a wide bipartisan margin. There is absolutely no reason the provision should be removed from the Treasury-Transportation Appropriations bill. To do so would be a direct act against the will of a majority of Congress and majority of Americans."

Pressure from a White House—eying Florida’s electoral votes—was cited by congressional leaders as the reason for the change. “It’s clear that the White House isn’t listening to the will of the majority of Americans, who support ending these senseless restrictions,” said Philip Schmidt from the Latin America Working Group. “The administration believes that gaining a few votes in Florida is worth angering a broad section of the rest of the nation. This thinking could backfire on them.”

http://www.lawg.org/pages/new%20pages/countries/Cuba/conference-comm.htm

Pandering to the extremist Miami Cubano Batistianos, as all but one of the 2004 Democratic presidential candidates are doing, could backfire on the Dems too. Is that what you want?

[Mika]

146. It backfired before, and it will again

What did all of this pandering get us?

Under Clinton.. it got us the Helms-Burton Act, the Toricelli bill, the Libertad Act, wet foot/dry foot, the S Florida security zone, and (worst of all) W Bush.

Its unbelievable that the dems would do it (pandering to the extremist right wing Cuba "exile" minority) again, but it seems they are.

[politicat]

123. Not our business. Got enough problems. Don't need to go looking for more

eom

[Osolomia]

134. More excuses for the Dem’s silent complicity with the Bush Doctrine

And you wonder why the Dems keep losing? Duh!

[Unknown Known]

43. The Batista Cubans have been the problem from the very beginning

They claim to want freedom, but they are some of the most corrupt in the world. Not only were they involved in killing Kennedy, but also in destroying democracy again in 2000.

I despise these people. A pox upon their house.

[Osolomia]

44. The problem is Americans who let the Batistianos walk all over them

Dems were handed a golden opportunity on a silver platter to get a bipartisan veto proof majority vote to lift the travel ban and blew it and have no one to blame but themselves for remaining travel and trade banned for many, many more years to come considering where all the 2004 presidentoal contenders except Kucinich stand on the issue.

[fujiyama]

41. I hate Cubes...

The Borg Cubes! After all, if the republican party is the Borg...and they travel by Cubes...

[HEyHEY]

42. An excuse

Gotta havea reliable enemy to hate

[Osolomia]

45. So long as "excuses" is the best the Dems have to offer

in this day and age then the party is hopeless, time to find something better.

[Iverson]

46. difficulty understanding Cubism

It breeds hostility.

[Osolomia]

48. Ignorance breads hostilility

and so long as that's the way shameless Dems want it then you're no better than the repukes and deserve to be trade and travel banned and the laughingstock of the world for many more years to come.

[Iverson]

49. uhhh, you talkin' to me?

Better do your research again, friend.

[Osolomia]

52. The writing's been on the wall in flashing neon lights for years

obviously DUers are blind and incapable of answering the original poster's questions which is quite revealing in itself.

[Iverson]

69. get serious

If every discussant here is interchangeable with every other, then clearly that applies to you too. If not, then you have the rough task of making comments germane when you apply them to individuals, and you missed the mark with me, bucko.

[Osolomia]

72. Why don't you get serious and answer the original posters question?

Instead of avoiding it due to a typo!

[sandnsea]

55. Who hates Cuba?

I don't even understand the premise of that question. Why do you think Americans hate Cuba? Cuba, the country, the people. I don't know anybody who hates Cuba, never heard that in my life.

[9215]

57. Maybe because they're square????

But I'd like a link or two regarding right-angle phobia.

[Hippo_Tron]

58. I love my cube, thank-you...

[salin]

60. I vote this as funniest typo-titled thread

cracks me up everytime it gets kicked up to the front page.

[Osolomia]

62. Yup, it's always funny to see DUers true colors

kick

[youngred]

64. come on, it was a typo

and if there is anything DUers are its a bunch of wise-asses. of course there are gonna be some jokes.

chill out

[Billy Burnett]

71. youngred

Sure, there are going to be some jokes among DUers. Cool.

It is hard for those of us who have been to Cuba and have friends their to get a chuckle out of the abuse of an entire nation by our government. Especially so if you have friends that are, or have been, impacted directly by our collective American indifference to the covert illegal actions of the US government and the Miami ex Cuban "exiles" against Cuba and its people.

I can understand Osolomia's outrage and anger. The jokes aren't funny in light of the fact that people are suffering. The Bush Mafia will try to extend their all out war to Cuba and the collective American disconnect will surely lead to the harm of friends of mine in Cuba, and I'm sure friends of Osolomia will be, or are, harmed by American actions too.

It is not a joking matter.


The typo and responses are sort of a metaphor for the whole lack of understanding and seemingly adamant ignorance about Cuba that most Americans seem to possess.


It is sad and maddening.



www.ypsl.org

[youngred]

75. No kidding

the fact is I agree with you on this, and if you read my posts not in response to osolomia you and they would see that. That still does not give them the right to be so sanctimonious and insulting to all DUers and to say untrue things.

I know Cubans in Cuba. I have been there. I have seen the truth. I helped run prosthesis across the border into Canada to be transported to Cuba. I understand full-well the effect of the sanctions and how they hurt the people of Cuba and would like nothing more than to see them be removed. I don't understand the need to be so angry and abusive of allies in that fight though.

It may seem metaphoric to you, but it really isn't. Start another thread or drop the typo and you'd see very different reactions. Even some of Cuba's strongest supporters are making jokes here. It's not a question of not understanding or not empathizing.

[Billy Burnett]

84. Cool. I was just trying to explain why some are emotional

Why do we need to resort to smuggling prothetic devices to Cuba? It is sick to have to be forced to do such a thing by a government (ours). Which political party has supported such inhumane sanctions? I'll tell you... both parties have created the myriad of embargoes and sanction laws against Cuba. They have done so in a quid pro quo for campaign contributions by a spectrum of PACs that have a vested interest of one form or another in sanctioning Cuba and exploiting the "confrontation" between the US and Cuba.

This is the issue at heart ---> Do "our" democratic candidates (and does "our" Dem party) represent the interests and desires of the party membership, or do they represent the interests of a few special interests that undermine the will of the membership?



I've read plenty of DU threads relating to Cuba, and, if they don't sink like a stone, they have shown that there are a few DUers who support the ending of the embargo and a few that don't. Problem is that there are a lot of assumptions and lack of understanding of the issue. Statements like, for example {paraphrasing --> } "its a republican issue", or "Castro tells big business to piss off", or "it's a corporate thing", or "Cuban-Americans are republicans", etc.

It just doesn't help one's temperament to have DUers who are supposedly "allies" spewing anti Cuba, or at least ingnorant, propaganda without doing any research... It is inexcusable, as a matter of fact, in this day and age of such accessibility to information. We aren't freepers here ... we are capable of doing our own research -or at least reading the links provided- aren't we?

[youngred]

87. Completely understand

and you're right its a problem with both sides of the spectrum with a minority of the left calling for a sensible policy. It is the money and influence of a small group aided by old cold war fears and 50 years of demonization by our government that has caused this situation.

One of the reasons I support Kucinich is because he doesn't seem to represent the interstests of the few special interests but rather the will of the people and he tries to do what is right.

I've read and participated in many Cuba threads on this board and full-well understand the frustration of dealing with the incessant inanities and propaganda brainwashing. Sometimes doing research, and reading links contrary to a long line of indoctrination is very hard for some people. But for each that's an asshole and blows you off the hope is someone reads it and learns something and changes their opinion.

[Osolomia]

86. Dems who support sanctions are NOT "allies"

Dems who support the extremist right wing minority are not allies in this or other issues.

It's the fact the 99.99% of the Dem candidates do NOT support the MAJORITY that's inexplicable and inexcusable.

[youngred]

88. must you jump into a reasoned discussion

of opinion and thought with such vhemence and irrational anger?

[Osolomia]

91. aw, excuse me for stating a few simple facts

that you prefer to ignore in order to justify pandering to the Miami-Cubano mafia.

[youngred]

92. I'm trying to be nice here

but do you know how to read? or not be an ass?

seriously.

I'm not justifying anything. I'm only explaining why some eleceted officals act the way they do. I disagree with those officals but still you single me out to attack and insult.

You needed some perspective, I try to offer it and you'd rather ignore that to justify your paranoia about everyone being out to stop a reasonable cuba policy. Perhaps that's not true, but its the kind of argument you're making against me.

[Osolomia]

108. No wonder this travesty of democracy doesn't bother the hypocrites

http://www.lawg.org/pages/new%20pages/countries/Cuba/conference-comm.htm

[Mika]

94. I think that's why Billy used quotes around "allies" (as in- NOT)

Hi Billy. :hi:

Long time, long time.

[salin]

78. No offense intended

and note that those of us who got silly - did not weigh in with the knee-jerk responses about Cuba that float around here, in a progressive site.

There are times where things are so tense, on so many fronts, and so overwhelming politically, that seeing something so absurd - just taps into a place of almost hysterical giggles. I call that a response to burnout fatigue. It was not meant to slight the issue.

Count me as one who does not know enough about Cuba - in terms of the ins and outs of egregious US policies, but am familiar with the reflexive repressive response this country has had to cuba, as well as to various central and south american countries. Our policies have had horrendous effects and continue to this day to wreak economic havoc, violate sovereignty/democracy as we attempt to over throw countries that we feel are a threat (but they aren't a thread except to our need to control access to cheap oil - and if we supported different types of energy policies - that focused on renewables there wouldn't be the impetus to "need to control" that oil that seems to drive some of our awful policies), we have supported multiple brutal regimes that have led to the murder of thousands in our hemisphere.

I appologize that I offended you and others by taking this particular moment/typo to let off some steam. I did not mean to harm the discussion. Or make light of it.

[don jose]

81. The Cuban press is anti-Israeli

and persecution of homosexuals is still rife in Cuba

[Mika]

90. What a friggin lie

http://www.cbcfhealth.org/content/contentID/1537&relArticleDisplay=5

Cuba maintains the lowest HIV/AIDS prevalence in the Western Hemisphere -- 0.03% of the country's population is estimated to be HIV-positive, compared with 0.42% of the U.S. population

On the right of the same page you'll see these stats,

HIV/AIDS infection rates in the Caribbean are among the highest in the world second only to Sub-Saharan Africa.

As of December 1999, there were 360,000 adults and children living with HIV/AIDS in the Caribbean. By the end of the 2000, that number had grown to an estimated 390,000.

In the English-speaking Caribbean, HIV/AIDS is now the leading cause of death among men between the ages of 15 and 44 years.

In English-speaking Caribbean, 35% of HIV positive adults were women.

Approximately one out of every 300 people living in the US Virgin Islands is living with HIV/AIDS.

Treatment. Education. That's some serious persecution.



Cuba does have AIDS sanitariums and living facilities for voluntary treatment, and habitation. As you might know, there is an amount of stigmatization and rejection of AIDS patients by their families. But in Cuba these persons and their families are fully covered by the Cuban healthcare system, habitation included. Like most developed nations there are "incarceration laws" in Cuba regarding reckless unprotected sexual activity that endangers other unwittingly. In those cases the patients are not jailed, but put in these treatment sanitariums until a review board determines that the patients will not behave dangerously. If they end up being repeat offenders (no set 3 strikes or anything), then criminal charges would be filed.

Sex ed is universal in Cuban schools. Condoms are free. AIDS prevention awareness is high in Cuba, and there are radio and TV public service ads and billboards promoting safety. Sexuality and sex ed in not kept in the dark in Cuba, because unlike in the USA, the extreme Christian right has little control in the Cuban government or the Cuban health care system.

Google "gay Cuba" and you'll see there is lots of info on the subject and travel there.

Here's one link from there,
http://www.brightlightsfilm.com/17/08a_gaycuba.html

[Judi Lynn]

122. I'd sure like to see something written to support your charges.

David Paul, from the now defunct US-Cuba Relations Message Board at CNN, were he here, a true gusano-spotter, would ask you as soon as he saw your post to go ahead, and let us get a good look at your sources, that we might learn.

I'll ask, in his absence: "Gotta link?" You probably would be well-off in posting links to your sources, or describing them in some creditable way, so we can find them for ourselves.

[ulysses]

126. oh, pull the corncob out.

No, what's happening in Cuba is not a laughing matter. Finding humor in the typo is not the same as laughing at the situation in Cuba.

The typo and responses are sort of a metaphor for the whole lack of understanding and seemingly adamant ignorance about Cuba that most Americans seem to possess.

Not really, no. Say what you will about me, but salin and Iverson are among the most informed and progressive folks you're likely to meet. That they also have functioning senses of humor is all the more to their credit.

[reknewcomer]

104. People are afraid to embrace the perfect governing body...Communism

Yea, that's it.

[Cat Atomic]

111. I think the American *government* is anti-Cuba because

they see it as a threat.

It sets an example that other Latin American countries might follow. It's independent.

There's an element of pandering to the Cuban "exile" vote as well, but on the whole, I think the US regards them as useful tools more than anything else. They can be used to destabilize the Cuban government.

[FDRrocks]

119. I hate cube...

rubix that is ... you get the red side aligned and the green is fucked up... WTF

[Judi Lynn]

124. The same state which brought Kansans a botched attempt

to create a resolution to end the embargo, which was buggered by a Cuban "exile" Representative from Wichita, ALSO brought the world an artist, someone Kansans can be proud of, Stan Herd, a man who does BIG art:

(snip) Artist's Cuban rose about to bloom
Stan Herd hopes to complete landscape honoring poet in December

By Mike Shields, City Editor

Saturday, October 28, 2000

Lawrence artist Stan Herd's response to Cuba was "primal," said a friend who went to the island with him.

Rosa Blanca takes form in Havana

Special to the Journal-World

Lawrence artist Stan Herd stands in front of Rosa Blanca, a landscape he is creating in Havana, Cuba, that depicts a white rose. Herd returned to Lawrence this week after spending five days in Cuba working on the rose. He will return in December to Havana to complete the project.

"Stan was floored. I don't really have a good adjective to capture all the feelings that seemed to be going through him," said Bob Augelli. "But his reactions tended to be more primal in nature. Like oh wow, oh my God. It took a while for him to get to the adjective level."

Augelli, also of Lawrence, is project director for the Rosa Blanca project.

Herd, with the help of a Cuban crew, is constructing a large landscape work depicting a white rose in Havana's Parque Metropolitano. Augelli said the work is now 70 percent complete.

Rosa Blanca is the title of a poem by Cuban patriot Jose Marti.

Herd, Augelli, and Kory Brinkerhoff, another Lawrence man involved, returned this week from Cuba after five days of work on Rosa Blanca. Herd was out of town Friday and could not be reached for comment.

It was the first time in Cuba for Herd and Brinkerhoff. Augelli has been there several times. The trio plans to return in early December to complete the work and begin preparations for a larger depiction of Jose Marti to be built at the mouth of Havana harbor.

"Although we haven't been given a firm commitment, the proposal at this point is for them to give us an area close to the entrance to Havana harbor," Augelli said. "It will become an instant landmark; not just for the city of Havana but for the country of Cuba. For those that know Havana harbor, it will be approximately halfway between the opening of the harbor and the statue of Christ."


Lawrence artist Stan Herd stands in front of Rosa Blanca, a landscape he is creating in Havana, Cuba, that depicts a white rose. Herd returned to Lawrence this week after spending five days in Cuba working on the rose. He will return in December to Havana to complete the project.

http://www.ljworld.com/section/citynews/story/31297

Here's the bustard who buggered our State Resolution to end the embargo:

Mario Goico, District 100, Wichita

Here's the website of this great Kansas artist:
http://www.stanherd.com/

An article describes _Bush's administration as it decided to keep Herd from completing a project in Cuba, with Kansas Senator Pat Roberts trying to get it straightened out:
http://www.ibike.org/cuba/ofac/010619-lj.htm

[Judi Lynn]

125. An event which hasn't been given ANY noteworthy publicity, oddly

is the decision of a Cuban "exile" to return to Cuba:



Back home
Eloy Gutiérrez-Menoyo is seen July 30 on Malecón Avenue in Havana. Gutiérrez-Menoyo, who lives in Miami, was visiting Cuba with his family and on Thursday he announced that he would stay in Cuba.
(AP Photo/José Goitia)

Aug. 8, 2003

Copyright © 2003, South Florida Sun-Sentinel

(snip) Weekly Report - 12 August 2003
CUBA: Dissident back from exile to push from within
Eloy Gutiérrez Menoyo believes democratisation is inevitable, and wants Fidel to lead the way.

Only a few journalists were discreetly tipped off that something was about to happen at Havana airport on 7 August, as the visiting dissident Eloy Gutiérrez Menoyo was about to embark on his return flight to Miami. Even Gutiérrez Menoyo's wife Gladys and their children were kept in the dark about his intention to announce that he was remaining in Cuba, to try and secure legal recognition for the opposition and prompt the democratisation of the island's political system.

Gutiérrez Menoyo had been a distinguished comrade-in-arms of Fidel Castro who achieved the distinction of being appointed a comandante de la Revolución. However, he soon became disenchanted with Fidel's rule, and in the mid-1960s he was arrested and convicted of conspiring to overthrow him. He was sentenced to death, but this was later commuted to 50 year's imprisonment, from which he was released into exile after 22 - thanks to the intercession of Spanish prime minister Felipe González.

In 1993 in Miami he founded an opposition organisation called Cambio cubano (`Cuban change'), advocating a peaceful transition to democracy in his homeland. Over the years he and his organisation drifted steadily away from other opposition groups both within and without Cuba. A measure of this estrangement was his bald statement on 7 August that `an independent opposition is not an opposition manipulated by the US Interests Section.' (snip)

(snip)Hostile reception

Gutiérrez Menoyo's sudden decision (which he says he had been planning for some time, secretly so as to catch the Cuban government off guard), did not go down well with other opposition groups. Elizardo Sánchez, leader of an illegal human rights commission in Cuba, hints at government involvement: `It could be that this was a decision taken at the highest level within the island.' Ninoska Pérez Castellón, leader of the Miami-based Consejo por la Libertad de Cuba (CLC) minced no words: `This has to have been approved by Fidel Castro, who is the dictator in Cuba.' Others, without adhering to this line of thinking, have been hurt by his blanket dismissal of other dissident groups. • (snip/)

http://www.latinnews.com/lwr/LWR2280.asp?instance=16&mode=a

[RebelOne]

127. I don't hate Cuba

I'm just not fond of Cubans having lived among them in So. Florida for many years.

[Mika]

128. Those Miami based right winger "exiles" are EX Cubans.

Only if you have spent time IN Cuba have you lived among Cubans.

Cubans live in Cuba or, of those who live elsewhere, don't consider themselves "exiles".

Spending time in S. Fla is not spending time with real Cubans, the extremists who call themselves "exiles" are really ex Cubans.

[RebelOne]

139. Believe me, living in Miami is like living in Cuba.

I grew up in Miami and saw it change from almost 100% anglo to 85% Cuban by the time I moved in 1989. In fact, unless you were bilingual, jobs weren't easy to find.

[Billy Burnett]

140. LOL. Try getting a job in Quebec w/o being bilingual

Believe me, living in Miami is like living in Cuba.

Man, you are WAY off base. Miami is NOTHING like Cuba. Miami is aggressive and harsh with poor service and a polluted environment, Cuba is mellow and welcoming, friendly and accommodating, everyone pitching-in to get along, and is simply beautiful and virtually pristine.

I live in Miami, and I've been to Cuba several times.

-

I grew up in Miami and saw it change from almost 100% anglo to 85% Cuban by the time I moved in 1989. In fact, unless you were bilingual, jobs weren't easy to find.


Well, if 85% of the market speaks Spanish it makes good business sense to employ bilinguals. In Montreal, Canada you can't get a job without bilingual ability ... but in Canada bilingual education is mandatory.

[9215]

130. Down with the squares

:kick: for the rads!

[Osolomia]

133. With so many "squares" further to the right than all the Repubs

in the House and Senate who voted for your freedom to travel to Cuba while the Democratic* p/residential candidates are opposed to it and not all bothered by the majopr travesty of democracy going on, then "down" with them indeed!