If Wesley Clark is elected, what do you realistically hope he'll do?(nt)

[Eric J in MN]

nt

[slinkerwink]

1. I really don't know what he'll do.

I don't know which domestic policies are really important to him. I still have no sense of that.

[SahaleArm]

17. Or don't care to know.

You can quit playing possum now:).

http://www.clark04.com/issues

[slinkerwink]

23. yes, but he's never passed a bill or written any legislation

Those issues seem to be mostly cooked up by his aides/staffers. That's why I really have no sense of what Clark would do with an issue since he has no past history with it.

[creativelcro]

28. That is why Clark might be OK as VP, but not yet as Prez

>>
Those issues seem to be mostly cooked up by his aides/staffers. That's why I really have no sense of what Clark would do with an issue since he has no past history with it.
>>

[KittyWampus]

30. Well, Dean Has Done 180's From His Record In Vermont

So it's pretty obvious he's a rank opportunist.

Clark has been base commander where he:

improved race relations
improved morale conditions
improved education
adressed spousal abuse

He's also written books and stood up for what was right in Kosovo...

[creativelcro]

31. go clean your rifle soldier

[Beaker]

39. how many presidents are called upon to personally write legislation?

I didn't realize that it was part of the job description...How in the world did Eisenhower ever get the job?

[Zero Division]

42. For Clark to go against everything he's said as a candidate or the ....

progressive things he's done for the U.S. military (as was mentioned by another poster in this thread) just seems completely unbelievable to me.

Since we're talking about someone who once voted for some Republican presidents in the past, but who has in the past decade voted for Democrats and is strongly critical of Republican policies, that would be akin to Zell Miller deciding to run for office again as a Repub and suddenly saying after winning the election, "Ha! I fooled you all. I was never serious about supporting Bush and smearing my fellow Democrats."

And as much as I'm sure the Diehard DU Anti-Clark Brigade believes that's what would happen (and I'm sure that reasonable people will agree that this small but very vocal group will believe anything negative about Clark regardless of anything that suggests otherwise), I think everyone else can agree that that would be absurd and would so utterly discredit him among his supporters that it would amount to political suicide.

[Clark Can WIN]

76. But what you are saying is false

But what you are saying is false. He actually HAS moved domestic agendas already. He rattled the cages in congress to improve education, schools, to lower the teacher/pupil ratio, to expand vocational training. He fought for improved medical care and improved housing standards. He did it for the men and women of the armed services and their children.

This is a from a 1998 report to congress.

RESOURCE PRIORITIES - AN INVESTMENT IN THE FUTURE


USEUCOM provides input through DoD channels to the Secretary of Defense and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, concerning resource requirements through the Integrated Priorities List (IPL). However, I would like to highlight some of the most important aspects of USEUCOM's resource requirements.

Quality of Life

"The judgement, creativity, and fortitude of our people will remain the key to success in future joint operations."

Joint Vision 2010

Our most precious resource is the service member and his or her family. Quality of life (QOL) is one of my very top theater priorities, as it is inextricably linked to readiness, retention, the reinforcement of service core values, healthy family life, high morale and mission accomplishment.

The quality of our housing, medical care, schools, religious services, public facilities, services and recreation activities define the American standard of living. The expectation of the DoD family, serving across the vast USEUCOM Theater, is no different.

Our goal is to ensure all USEUCOM forces enjoy the optimum achievable standard of living; comparable to that of the society they are pledged to defend and that of their DoD counterparts stateside.

Our most important 1998 QOL strategy objective was to analyze and quantify the impact QOL has on readiness. We took "expert testimony" from installation commanders and senior enlisted advisors from across the theater. Their conclusions were identical: quality of life is critical to personnel readiness and retention. They are not satisfied with the quality of the programs in this AOR. With the exception of Equal Opportunity and the Chaplaincy programs, none of the other 23 total program areas evaluated compares favorably with its CONUS counterpart. Family housing and barracks, pay and retirement, health care and dependent education were consistently identified as lagging the farthest behind. We must do better in compensating service members and families whose well-being is constantly taxed through repetitive deployments and the stress of family separations. USAREUR soldiers, for example, are often deployed two to three times during a normal overseas tour. Nonetheless, USAREUR continues to enjoy record retention rates. Our analysis tells us that these rates correlate directly to our mission focus while emphasizing soldier and family programs.

Overseas troops, civilian employees and families often rely solely on DoD-provided programs for support because they do not have the same off-base alternatives as their CONUS counterparts. Dependent education is a prime example. Today over half of USEUCOM service members have families with children in school. The DoD education system is the 27th largest US public school system, with 160 schools serving 78,000 students. USEUCOM provides logistical support for 118 of these schools and 50,000 students. Funding new programs such as all-day kindergarten and improved student-to-teacher ratios are extremely important to USEUCOM QOL. Your support for this funding is crucial.

Individuals responding to a recent theater-wide survey targeting dependent-education issues identified dependent education as the most important of eight QOL support-program areas. Our children deserve a world-class school system with curriculum and programs to match the best. This is the standard our military personnel and their families expect and deserve.

Athletics, music, art and associated after school activities are as critical as the core academic subjects of math, science, history and English.

Many schools do not offer vocational programs. They have been forced to choose between college preparatory or vocational offerings, because their budget cannot support both. We must take aggressive action to expand vocational, technical and school-to-work programs.

Additionally, I believe in the importance of linking Department of Defense Education Activity (DoDEA) programs to the National Education Goals and Presidential Initiatives. We must work toward establishing an 18:1 student-teacher ratio for grades 4-12. We also need to push for program-based staffing. More counselors, technical support and special-needs teachers to match curriculum requirements not school size. I would also like to see theater-level School Boards that would participate in all DoDEA related activities.

The health and well being of our active duty and family members is increasingly important as we face an increased military operations tempo with decreases in recruitment and retention. We have an increasing responsibility to provide a world-class health and dental plan, with uniformity of medical and dental benefits and standardized processes for beneficiaries as they move throughout the world.

The $50M funding received via FY99 Emergency Supplemental Appropriation for Morale, Welfare and Recreation, and Personnel Support for contingency deployments was greatly appreciated and will improve the QOL for all those deployed. Additionally, I fully support the pay and retention issues addressed by the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs and the service component leaders. Improvement to QOL issues, in the long run, will serve to improve every CINC's manning concerns.

Housing

Last year Congress supported all but one of our FY99 Military Construction and Family Housing projects. I am grateful for your support, as are the troops and their families who benefit from these projects. The challenge of eliminating and renovating large numbers of inadequate housing is still a huge obstacle we attack on a daily basis. Those of you who have visited our theater know that more than one-half of our family housing and barracks fall far short of the DoD standards. Barracks constructed by the German Army in the 1930's have only received minor improvements and necessary maintenance and repair. Quarters built during the Marshall Plan era still have original kitchens, baths and utility systems.

Our Service Components have used a "worst first" strategy to upgrade our housing inventory. Current Defense guidance requires elimination of gang latrines by 2008 and elimination of inadequate housing by 2010. All services are on track to meet these goals. However, many of our service members will retire before their quarters are brought up to those standards.


The top-line increases reflected in the FY00 budget provided significant additional resources for Real Property Maintenance (RPM). However, remaining shortfalls in RPM accounts may further exacerbate the inadequate state of our housing. After must-fund requirements (fire protection, utility and trash removal bills, contracts and civilian pay) are met, there are precious few dollars left to do much more than emergency housing repairs. Commanders are making every effort to stretch their limited budgets, but our need is greater than the resources available.


Congress should remain committed to fixing housing in this theater.

[Spazito]

2. There are many things I hope he does but here are a few big ones...

Repair US relationship with Canada and the rest of the world

Get the UN and/or Nato involved in Iraq regarding the re-structuring and political aspects.

Repeal the tax cuts to the rich and re-invest the money in people again

[Eric J in MN]

3. regarding taxes, has Wesley Clark ever said that

Regarding taxes, has Wesley Clark ever said that he wants to restore the inheritence tax, or raise the dividend tax to the rate of the Clinton years?

[mmonk]

5. He said

he wants the tax system to be based on the principles of a progressive one. He would repeal the last cuts on the top 2%.

[douginmarshall]

7. Read his plan

http://clark04.com/issues/economicvision/

You can see all his positions on the issues.

http://clark04.com/issues/

[mmonk]

9. appears to be too simple of an approach

for some.

[Eric J in MN]

16. The plan on his website is so vague.

"Wes Clark's plan would protect the estate tax repeal for small businesses and family farms and would ensure that middle-class families get the benefit of lower taxes on dividends."

Does that mean he would maintain the repeal of the estate tax and lowering of dividend tax? Keep it the same? Repeal part of it?

[mmonk]

18. He would make it possible to pass it own (family business)

instead of disintegrating the holdings never to be taxed again or passed on to the person's children.

[Eric J in MN]

20. People should have to pay taxes on paychecks, but not on inheritances? nt

nt

[mmonk]

45. If no wealth is allowed to be past down

from parents to children, how does that help society? Erase it, you can't tax it anymore. It's not siting there tax free. I don't believe he said there shouldn't be any taxes on inheritances. But its not like it hasn't been taxed.

[glarius]

15. One of the 1st things I heard him say was his desire to repair relations

with former allies, including Canada...We in Canada know how important that is because of trade considerations etc....:)

[mikehiggins]

4. Conquer the world!

Enough of this mamby pamby Bush waffling! Sign an alliance with the Russians, give them control of Europe. Let the Chinese have the Pacific (maybe they could call it Oceana) and totally take over the North and South Americas, sink Cuba and spread the Ashcroft doctrine everywhere in our reach.

Yeah. That's the ticket.

Oh, and go blow up Waco again, just for kicks.

OR HE JUST MIGHT

stand up for individual freedom, try to rebuild the economy, whittle down the deficit without throwing people out into the street, "shift" taxes from tax cuts for folks that don't need them to the rebuilding of America's infrastructure, including the revitalization of our rail system and the expansion of non-fossil fuel power generation, cut the crap and fat out of the military budget (how many supercarriers does it take to neutralize a rocket firing donkey?), reweave the "safety net" so the neediest people don't fall through the cracks, make pensions totally portable, remove tax breaks for companies that relocate their operations and home offices to the Cayman Islands, and their jobs to China, rebuild the UN and strengthen our ties with the nations and peoples we share this planet with and, and, and...

Lots to do. We have to elect someone who isn't afraid to try to get the job done.

[Eric J in MN]

10. Wesley Clark hasn't been specific about individual freedom

We know he wants to amend the Constitution to ban "flag desecration."

Regarding the Patriot Act, he only says that portions involving warrantless searches should be repealed, when the bigger issue is the low-standard for judges issuing warrants.

He hasn't said anything (as far as I know) about whether people arrested in America like Padilla can be held without charges and without access to attorney as "enemy combatants."

I wish he would be more specific on civil liberties.

[mmonk]

14. One of his concerns

is the erosion of our rights. He is especially concerned over an apparent crackdown on dissent. The person many describe as a risk of our civil rights or matters concerning war is a whole lot different from the Wes Clark I have come to know through what he says and what he has written lately. I call it the "caracature" syndrome.

[Clark Can WIN]

77. RFOWL

Man. I am going to have to get a keyboard cover.

[Bozola]

6. Use the Patriot Act to truely investigate

the activities of these last 4 years. I want to see the infrastructure of the terrorist organization known as the Republican Party destroyed and it's leaders and major supporters shot for treason. I want to see FAUX News.....

Oh, wait a sec, sorry, I must have had one of Coulter's .wav files running in the background.

[Donna Zen]

8. The first 100 days

1) convene an international summit to discuss Iraq and turn over the oil.

2) End parts of the Patriot Act immediately, with the rest suspended until further review.

3) Reconfigure the dynamics currently in play in Afghanistan with the inclusion of Arab nations. This will mean real pressure on the Saudias. Part of the effort will include a UN definition of "terrorism" with an plan for creating a seamless international law enforcement to detect and apprehend the real terrorists.

4) According to Clark, form a team to develop an economic plan for the US that would redistribute existing R & D monies to the most promising technologies. Expect a push in green technologies, he loves them and understands them. In this respect he is very much in line with Gore. There will be an immediate push for Detroit to roll out a high milage vehicle.

5) A strengthening and tightening of the laws governing corporations.

6) Loop hole closing.

7) The Hunting of the Pentagon Pork 2005

8) Expansion of healthcare

9) A new policy re: gays in the military

10) (Still thinking but I've got to run. later)

[FrenchieCat]

11. As Clark has said....

He would hold the present administration accountable for 9/11. He has a plan to get us out of Iraq as quickly as possible without leaving a big mess that could later start world war III.

For those supporting another candidate, shame if you don't even investigate what this man's stance on the positions are. It means that you are not educating yourselves because you have already made a choice. It's like being offered a multiple choice test, and prior to reading what all of the choices are, you settle on answer A. This is the folly that will haunt us, and all because the homework was not done.

Read this and know that this is not a silly game:

http://thedolphin.typepad.com/dolphin/2003/11/are_dean_democr_1.html

[rumguy]

12. Prevent Armageddon

We're heading for a major train wreck over there in the Mid East. Clark will refocus us towards getting Osoma and wiping out Al-Queda. I'd totally trust him to do that if he became president.

His domestic agenda is clearly layed out on his website. But the most important thing he'd do is actually win the "war on terror," and get us off this track of ever-escalating, never-ending war which the fascists in the White House want.

[kentuck]

13. What do you realistically hope any of them can do?

Other than put their finger in the dike...

[Pastiche423]

19. Resign

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RandomUser]

22. Change the landscape (long)

There's lots of things I want and a whole wishlist, so I'll limit it to two key items in domestic and foreign policy.


FOREIGN POLICY: Rebuild our soft power.

This means repair alliances and recrafting our global image. The key is RESPECT and soft power. Iraq, war on teror, etc, are all sideshows to this. This is the linchpin of our survival and influence.

If we can repair these alliances, we can gain aid in spreading the burden of Iraq and decrease the death toll. We need to change the relationship the rest of the world has towards us from one of fear, distates, and uncertainty to one of admiration, respect, and support.

This soft power can be used to persuade and influence global events and treaties around the world. Everything -- Israeli-Palestinian peace talks, nuclear disarmament between India and Pakistan, stopping tribal conflict in Africa, trade disputes with the EU, N.Korea and Iran nukes, helping democracy advocates in Russia, human rights activists in totalitarian regimes, fighting AIDS in Africa, global consensus on Whaling moratoriums and greenhouse emissions -- ALL of it depends on our soft power.

If they respect us they're more likely to actively support us rather than disdainfully staying neutral, passively resist, or even actively resist. And the image projected by the US has implications beyond foreign governments. If foreign populations respect us, they're less likely to become terrorist recruiting grounds as well. Their confidence in us will affect their financial and capital investments in the U.S. as well as tourism and other things.

Clark is the best qualified person to rebuild our foriegn policy because he already knows Chirac and Blair on a personal basis. Although some of the other candidates have experience in foreign affairs, none of the other candidates can say this. Clark was the only one who ever had Head of State status equal to that of a president or prime minister. And this is not the time for a novice to foreign affairs, not when we're in this current mess, and not when we saw what a novice in foreign affairs like Bush did to us.


DOMESTIC POLICY: Reframe the issues

Reframing the issues is key to winning future elections and changing the course of the body politic. If we can achieve this, everything else follows.

Clark can change the tone of the Republican's hijacking of patriotism. Not just take back the flag, but make liberal Democrats proud to be patriotic again, where patriotism means the right to dissent. But more than that, he can do the same to all the other issues.

Take gay marriage for example. When asked about it, he changed it from a divisive issue to one equal rights and of loving one's children. He asked if you would love your children if they were gay, and if you would want them to be second class citizens. Instead of framing it in terms of gay marriage and the social implications of it, he made it a question of fairness, putting it in human terms. But more than that, he put it in understandable terms that touched something deeper, the issue of children. Do you love your children?

That brilliant mind of his had totally changed the entire landscape of the question the interviewer asked of him. If he can do this with not just patriotism and gay marriage, but with all the other domestic issues, we will win big. Reframing the issues is key, and will reverse the downsloping support Dems have been getting from the American public.

Will Clark stumble and have flaws? Yes, he's not perfect. But he's the best suited of all the candidates to accomplish these two things -- rebuild our soft power and reframe our issues so they can win. The dividends from these two accomplishments will echo through future elections.

[joanski01]

46. Great post, Random

I love your thinking. I feel the same way. Go, Clark.

[mmonk]

24. what Bush has done has done is to erode

International co-operation. Now you are seeing alliances form to counter U.S. hegemony. The more of these that are created, the more they will erode organizations we spent alot of time building. Clark can help the backslide in these areas as well.

[LWolf]

25. Champion progressives.

And their causes.

[hlthe2b]

26. Send all this administrations' chickenhawks...

to Iraq or Afghanistan to do their tour of duty as "enlisted" troops and under the command of the UN! :evilgrin:


On edit, ok.. much more than that, but I had to take a moment of personal gratification just thinking of the possibilities!

[FrenchieCat]

27. and then cut

the F*cking pentagon budget by 25%. Will give us lotsa of money for many things we need.

[oasis]

29. To quote Raider's owner Al Davis: "Just win baby!"

[Postman]

32. Place Bush and PNAC crowd under arrest.

as public enemies

[Zero Division]

33. Great Question

Foreign Policy:

- repair and strengthen our international alliances, creating a real international coalition to deal with threats to international stability

- create a plan that will restabilibize Iraq, as best as possible, and return its governance to the Iraqi people, thus finding a way to get our troops out of there without leaving Iraq a total disaster; this will result partly as a consequence of the return of real objective analysis of the situation, rather than the Bush admin's "faith-based" strategies ("bombing and shelling the hell out of places we think hold insurgents will not alienate the Iraqi populace which prefers us greatly over Saddam...", etc.).; give our troops better pay and better equipment to protect them as well as paying greater respect those that have and will die or receive serious injuries

- refocus our efforts on Afghanistan (remember that place, guys?)

- fight terrorism as it should be fought: meaning that instead of finding an excuse to wage total war or create further animosity in states where terrorists are found, we'd be using an appropriate amount of military force against the actual individual groups of terrorists, fully utilizing non-violent methods like freezing their funding, and getting cooperation from police and security forces in other countries

Domestic Policy:

*The most important thing he can possibly do here is encourage independent voters and the Democratic base to come out in full force and take back the House and the Senate (While I don't feel certain this will happen, I think his broad appeal and overwhelming deisire to win at everything he does gives him an advantage in accomplishing this.). Without this, he, just like any of our other candidates, will be unable to truly move our domestic policy back in a positive direction, rather than just prevent a further regressive slide which would occur under Bush. I'm hoping that a Clark candidacy gives us some huge coattails to do this. Until then the most we can hope for is that he stops the Republican Congress from during further harm.

- stop the Republicans from passing more irresponsible tax cuts and deepening our deficit

- ensure that that we enforce regulations to punish corporate corruption (such as the current unfair practices that are going on in Mutual Fund Companies)

- stop the tide of media conglomeration

- enforce environmental regulations, and prevent Republicans from wateing down our regulations to the point of uselessness

- appoint judges who will protect GLBT rights, women's reproductive rights, and civil liberties in general

*Once again I should mention that: He could do more than just "stop Republicans from..." if he can help us to gain power back in Congress. He could actually pass positive legislation like job training programs, a better Medicare plan, etc., but until we can turn the tide in the Legislative Branch he'll be just as helpless as any of our other candidates would be in trying to pass truly progessive legislation.

I'm sure that I could think of other things that I would expect as positive highlights of a Wes Clark presidency, but that's what I've got for now.

[Eric J in MN]

35. Has Clark said he is against media conglomeration? nt

nt

[KittyWampus]

36. Yes, But Why Can't You Read His Policy Papers?

while DU is a great place to talk about candidates and ask questions, it seems that each of us should take some time to check out the policy papers and positions of ALL our candidates.

[Zero Division]

38. Yes

Remember all the hoopla about Clark vs. Dean on regulation (where lots of anti-Clarkies distorted his position of being against further regulation for businesses and for better enforcement of current regulations into being for "Bush-style deregulation")?

One of the things many ignored at that time was this quote: "Clark said he would 'dramatically ramp up efforts to hold corporate America responsible for misconduct. We need to limit media ownership, and I will. And we need far stronger protections for workers, consumers and our environment, going beyond where the Clinton administration went in several respects.'" This quote is taken from the following article:
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2003/11/19/clark_blasts_dean_proposal_to_re_regulate_businesses/

[Zero Division]

34. Kick!

:kick:

[elfin]

37. First - he (or any Dem)

will rescind all executive orders which reflect an anti-choice or anti-environment action.

Then put the screws to Saudis to help out substantially, along with providing a realistic framework for international cooperation/control for Iraq, and let Sharon know his fencing fun is OVER, while putting I/P back on the front burner.

Economic (Tax policy) will depend almost entirely on if Dems have any prayer of exerting control in Congress, but closing off shore loopholes - especially in contracting - could be done.

[American Renaissance]

40. War Crimes Trials

I would like to see him either put on trial or turn over the junta to the International Criminal Court to be prosecuted for "Conspircy To Launch and Wage a War of Agression"

[Donna Zen]

43. Tom DeLay

While Clark will push for us sign on to the Internation War Crimes court, he is wiley enough to hold many threats just under the table.

But Tom DeLay is another story. Clark called DeLay a "fool" on TV, and he has a particular distain for the man. Clark doesn't what DeLay is doing to American politics, he doesn't like his methods, and he holds an undisguised loathing for DeLay's leading of the charge against supporting the troops during Kosovo.

Look for a Clark Justice Dept. to go swiftly, surely, and relentlessly after the Texas Bugman. There have been plenty of shady deals instigated by DeLay, but most politicos are afraid of him. Clark wants that man back under a rock in the hot Texas sun.

BTW, the seemingly negative hangup for Democrats, that Clark has said pleasant things about repubs. will become an positive when working with what will probably be a GOP congress. Clark has some powerful allies on the other side of the aisle. They don't like bush although they very seldom make the right noises. They do like Wesley Clark, and will be there in some critical moments.

[arewethereyet]

41. I hope he won't declare himself a Republican

but that may not be realistic.

[Trek234]

44. He will bring back the draft

There is little you can know for sure about this guy, but bringing back the draft he said he will do and it is one thing that fits his profile.

[Shakespeare]

49. He's said no such thing--said the opposite, in fact.

Where on earth did you get the idea he'd reinstate the draft?

[Trek234]

50. He has stated

He has plans for a mandatory "community service" that "could" include over sea military duty. A draft by any other name is still a draft...

[Shakespeare]

53. Sorry, but no.

It's not the same thing.

[Trek234]

55. Oh really?

So being forced in to military duty over seas so long as it is called "community service" is not the same as if it were called a "draft"?

Another Clark supporter in denial I suppose. Remember - vote Clark in the primary vote for the draft.

[Shakespeare]

79. Actually, I'm a Kucinich supporter--and you're still wrong.

It's a V-O-L-U-N-T-E-E-R program. It's also a C-I-V-I-L-I-A-N program. You can sit there all day long and ascribe your own paranoid suspicions to it, but the FACT remains that Clark's not talking about anything military OR compulsory.

You're certainly free not to vote for Clark, but I really wish my FELLOW DEMOCRATS would stop spewing fabricated BS about the man.

[bicentennial_baby]

57. That is a falsehood

Go back to Clark's site and read the plan...It's VOLUNTARY.

[Donna Zen]

56. Two posts both WRONG...Wow

1. The Draft: Clark believes firmly in an all volunteer military. He was asked the question: do we need a draft, during the Rock the Vote debate. Clark said "no" we don't need a draft, we need a new policy.

So why don't you want to accept the word NO. Because it doesn't fit your preconceived notion? Because it misses the mark for your agenda? The man said NO!

2. Clark has NEVER proposed mandatory service. NEVER! He has proposed a NON military volunteer opportunity for all Americans of any age. Example: If there were an earthquake in the US, volunteers with a wide range of skills could be called up. If they did not chose to participate, they could say "no." If they did chose to go, the federal government would insure their job, and pay for their healthcare with a stipend for the time they were volunteering. That time could be up to six months.

Okay get this: NO draft...and No mandatory service. Now since I suspect this was just a post a lie and run, I'm doubt if you will bother to even read what I wrote.

NO draft and NO mandatory service...none....and that means NO

[Trek234]

58. Clark has flip flopped so many times

This is just another example. Saying he wouldn't support the draft at an event geared torwards youth. Wow imagine that. Fortunately for Clark most of those youth won't be reading documents he has released.

[Donna Zen]

61. So how much time have you spent in the Army?

Clark was there when we went to an all volunteer Army. He helped design and push the program. Now since he designed it, and since he advocates for it, and since he has recently affirmed his stance, I would think the only flip flop is the fishy post sitting in the middle of this thread.

Old...very old...

It was long and slippery as it tried to leave its hook in his mouth. Too old a tail to flip around and still retain its place on the scales of truth and justice.

[Zero Division]

65. What part of NEVER do you not understand?

It's not a "flip flop" if he never suggested that we should bring back the military draft.

"Lie and Run" is exactly the technique you're using.

Thanks for posting that Donna. You're efforts at cutting through the anti-Clark BS have been very influential on my support for Clark when I was just beginning to learn about him.

[Trek234]

69. He has never said he wanted to bring back the draft

in so many words. HOWEVER he has suggested he will ship people over seas for military duty in his "community service" plans.

[Zero Division]

70. A plan where some people VOLUNTARILY go overseas

does not even remotely resemble a military draft, which is involuntary. Thus, there is no way you say that he's "flip flopped" on the issue.

[FrenchieCat]

71. Clark did not flip/flop about the war if that's what you are referring to

THIS IS WHAT HE SAID IN SEPTEMBER OF 2002:
http://www.house.gov/hasc/openingstatementsandpressreleases/107thcongress/02-09-26clark.html

WHAT HE SAID IN OCTOBER 2002
http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/10/10/timep.iraq.viewpoints.tm/
LET'S WAIT TO ATTACK - BY WES CLARK 10/10/02

THIS IS WHAT HE SAID IN OCTOBER OF 2002
http://www4.fosters.com/election_2002/oct/09/us_2cong_1009a.asp

Retired Gen. Clark supports Swett, raises concerns about Iraq policy
By STEPHEN FROTHINGHAM,Associated Press Writer
MANCHESTER, N.H. (AP) — Retired U.S. Army Gen. Wesley Clark said Wednesday he supports a congressional resolution that would give President Bush authority to use military force against Iraq, although he has reservations about the country's move toward war.
----------------------
The general said he had no doubt Iraq posed a threat, but questioned whether it was immediate and said the debate about a response has been conducted backward.
"Normally in a debate, you start with a problem and consider possible solutions. Instead, the president has presented us with a solution before the problem has been fully articulated," he said.
"As far as the information we have now shows, there are no nuclear warheads on missiles pointed to America," he said. "You can't wait 10 years to act, but there is time on our side."
He said al-Qaida remains the largest terrorist threat against the United States, and the connection ----between al-Qaida and Iraq is unclear.
------------------------
After endorsing Swett in Nashua, he visited Manchester West High School and reassured history students that the threat of terrorism should be kept in perspective.
-----------------------
He said he shares the concerns he hears from many Americans about whether the country should act against Iraq without United Nations support and about how the United States will deal with Iraq after a successful invasion.
He also met in Portsmouth with the Democratic nominee in the 1st Congressional District, state Sen. Martha Fuller Clark.
A spokesman for Clark said the two were meeting to discuss foreign policy.

[FrenchieCat]

72. This is what was written about him during the war.....

Because, for a General, he did come off as being against this war....
As was reported here....on March 28, 2003....THIS WOULD BE SPRING...AND DURING THE WAR......SO EVEN THEN, HIS COMMENTARY WERE CRITICAL...AND HE WAS ROUNDLY CRITICIZED FOR IT.

http://www.spectator.org/article.asp?art_id=2003_3_27_22_49_18
Clark Tanks
By The Prowler
Published 3/28/2003 12:03:00 AM
DEAN-DUMB
So much for the Democrats' hope that retired General Wesley Clark was going to be their Colin Powell. "He's more Benedict Arnold than anything else, if you believe the mail we've been getting here," says the Democratic National Committee staffer who, only a month ago was touting Clark as his party's answer to the military star power aligned with Republicans.

"Any cachet he might have had he's pretty much pissed away on TV," says the staffer.

Since the outbreak of Operation Iraqi Freedom, Clark has been on CNN, bemoaning the Pentagon and Gen. Tommy Franks's strategy in the opening days of taking down Saddam. And while several other senior retired military men have made critical comments about the ongoing fighting -- Ret. Gen. Barry McCaffrey, another former Clinton-era official, has been quick to criticize during his stints on MSNBC --Clark has by far been the most vocal.

"It just looks really bad that he's knocking the troops and the way we're executing this war," says the DNC staffer. "He's taking hits everywhere, on TV, in the newspapers, on talk radio. People are furious at him. We can't fundraise off performances like this.
The only presidential candidate that would probably want to be seen with him is Howard Dean."


Prior to Clark's "tanking" on CNN, the DNC had Clark pegged for political stardom. He'd visited New Hampshire, and had hinted that he was interested in perhaps running for president as a Democrat. Now, the DNC isn't sure what they can do with the man who directed Bill Clinton's military machinations in Kosovo.

[Shakespeare]

80. WRONG - stop spewing that meme

It's a lie.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

47. repair our relationship with the world and repeal GW's fucked up bills

[janx]

48. Speaking of Clark...something occurred to me today.

Remember when Clark bashers used the audio of his statements at some military dinner, in which he praised Bush and the neocons?

Now I like Clark; I admire him and think he's great, and I look at the matter as one in which he was more or less expected to make those kinds of comments at that dinner.

But shit, the Republicans are going to use it against him if he runs! You think the Clark bashers on this forum are bad? Rove would make it into a joke and use it whenever possible! You know, comments like "C'mon back over to our side," etc. They're not going to let it go if he runs for president or for vice-president.

[Trek234]

51. Not to mention what will come out of pentagon files

on Clark. Any one think it would be above the Bush admin to leak false "official" pentagon records on Clark that show him in a very negative light? This is an advantage they have on Clark that no other candidate will have to deal with. "Official" pentagon records will play VERY well.

[Donna Zen]

59. Make stuff up much

No draft...no mandatory service...no hidden pentagon files

All of Clark's records have been released.

I know that your just living to spread this spew, but it is not true.

As far as saying two positive blurbs about the resident etal. All of the candidates have made pleasant sounds about these people. In fact, as far as Rummy, Condi, and the others, they all voted to approve their appointments. They voted for them.

Most Americans actually want their government to be successful.
How exactly Rove will use this is a mystery. Let's see: Clark said the resident and the military did a good job in Afghanistan, so that makes him bad.

Besides, the remaining statement is hardly flattering, so the counter is too easy.

[Trek234]

63. Please read

I didn't say hidden pentagon records on Clark actually existed. I simply said it may not be above the Bush admin (and, of course, includes anyone be it Rove/Rush/etc) to see to it that false records (or even talk of) start floating around. Or do you think Rove is too good for that?

Personally I don't believe any damning records exist on Clark that are tucked away right now. That doesn't mean Rove/hate radio/FOX news won't go with a story that says they do exist, however. In fact if Clark gets the nomination you should expect something like this to be used against him at some point in time.

I said NOTHING in this thread about what Clark may have said regarding nice things he may have said about Bush et al, so I don't know WHERE you are getting that from. Apparently you have internal worries about Clark that you are projecting on to me.

[mmonk]

52. If you think no other candidate is vulnerable to Rove

you're in for a big surprise.

[Trek234]

60. I said no other candidate

was as vulnerable as Clark is in this particular way. (pentagon records)

[Donna Zen]

64. Wrong again

They have all been released.

Try again.....

Anyone who thinks that Rove will not find or manufacture false information on any of these candidates, has not been paying attention. And Rove will go after their families. There are no rules in this new world.

[Trek234]

68. Again

Please show me where I said that ACTUAL records of a negative light have not been released?

Also, where do you get that I think Rove won't manufacture false information on other candidates?

The fact remains that Clark is the ONLY one who would be vulnerable to storys of damning pentagon records. (real or not)

This is bad because

1. Rove "Official pentagon papers" story on Clark sounds a HELL of a lot more credible/important in the average FOX news viewers mind than Rove story on Dean doing X bad thing according to X source. Official pentagon has a lot more credibility as a source to use against someone.

2. Believe it or not Dean (and every other candidate except perhaps Kerry, however it would be odd) doesn't exactly have a huge file at the pentagon. As a result Rove will have to use less credible sources.

[Tom Rinaldo]

74. Harder to fake the Pentagon stuff than Private life stuff

Originally I had a different post here briefly by mistake, which I just re-posted below, so with this edit I will be more on topic. Official Records that are already released and very thorough are harder to fiddle with in my opinion than digging up dirt from an individual's private life (or making it up) would be to pursue. Clark lived under a microscope in the military. He needed high Security Clearances for the types of positons he held.

[rumguy]

54. I don't see that as a bad thing in terms of electability

it establishes his credentials as a fair minded critic...swing voter will realize that what it means is that Bush screwed up big time...it was at the start, before Bush went nuts on the country

[FrenchieCat]

73. What are they going to use exactly....

Clark can use the that footage of himself in his own commercial. Maybe he'll be shown praising the President...and then a voice over would say, YES, A LOT OF US HARDWORKING AMERICANS BELIEVED THE PRESIDENT, WE TRUSTED HIM TO TELL US THE TRUTH.....then show carnage in Iraq, unemployment lines here in the US, show a Newspaper headline on the 87 Billion - on the deficit growth.....Then voice over sais.....WELL PRESIDENT BUSH, WE GAVE YOU YOUR FAIR CHANCE....AND IT LOOKS LIKE YOU BLEW IT.

Then Clark comes on: YES I ALSO WISHED THE BEST FOR OUR COUNTRY. MR. BUSH SAID HE WAS A COMPASSIONATE REPUBLICAN.....WELL IT DOESN'T LOOK THAT IT HAS TURNED OUT THAT WAY.

Clark then looks dead in the camera.......MR. BUSH, 4 YEARS WAS LONG ENOUGH. THE AMERICAN PEOPLE DESERVE BETTER.

VOTE FOR ME, WES CLARK FOR A BETTER AMERICA.....I'LL GET US BACK ON THE RIGHT TRACK TO THE 21ST CENTURY.

I approved of this message....

[Cocoa]

62. chane the locks at the White House

a great Al Sharpton line. :-)

[Clark Can WIN]

66. Aside from the obvious (fixing Iraq, etc.)

I like his ideas very much about continuing and vocational education. I believe he'll address the issue because he's done it already in the Army.

[Ksec]

67. I hope he makes corporations play fair

Fair wages and bennies, todays wages, not thirty years ago standards. I also hope he leads by example. Hes a great American and I believe if he could get some air time he could easily beat the Chimperor.

[Tom Rinaldo]

75. Immediate Actions I would expect from Clark

I first put this text in the wrong part of the thread above, Sorry. This is what I expect form the first 45 days:

Take a page from Clinton's book and convene an Economic Summit prior to taking office.

Fly to Europe for urgent consultations with our NATO Allies regarding the situation in the Middle East. Clark can do that without letting false pride get in the way. Clark is respected in NATO, and he respects NATO in return. Our traditional Allies will want him to succeed after what they went through with Bush. Clark will treat them with respect and will be rewarded by new support from them in return.

Make a speech before the United Nations reaffirming America's support for International cooperation and the U.N. specifically. Announce measures demonstrating greater American cooperation with the United Nations (there are many fronts to choose from). Annnounce the immediate suspension of Bush's Doctrine of Preemptive Defence.

Appoint an Attorney General who is committed to vigerous enforcement of laws governing American Corporations and the equities markets. Announce that he will expand the enforcement divisions of all the Federal regulatary agencies to restore staff cut backs under Bush. Announce that Energy Conservation and development of alternative energy sources will be top priorities for a new Energy Policy. Drop U.S. resistance to the Kyoto Accords. Submit proposals to Restore and expand funding for services to America's Veterens. Allow the immediated importation of prescription medications from Canada to provide immediate relief to consumers pending a larger review of the overall problem. Move immediately to strip tax incentives for businesses to outsurce American jobs. Submit legislation to repeal Bush's tax cuts for the rich and simultaneously provide tax relief to the poorest Americans who got absolutely no benefits from Bush's boondoggle. Submit legislation to increase the minimum wage.

Make real overtures to Republican moderates and even conservatives of integrity in Congress to establish a new positive political culture, sharply contrasting with the Republican take no hostages spirit control of Congress. Announce that as currently constituted "Don't tell don't ask" does not work for the military, and he wants a policy that will allow Gays and Lesbians to serve with honor.

Announce an urgent review of how national security resources are currently being alloted, with an eye towards redirecting substantial
funds currently wasted by the military's continued infatuation for weapon systems designed for a Cold War World towards shoring up our ability to prevent terrorist attacks domestically, and increasing our ability to better respond to them should any occur. Suspend (within his legal authority) immediately the most totalitarian aspects of the Patriot Act, and announce a thorough review of the entire act with a goal of revoking any aspect that undermines our Constitutionally guarenteed Freedoms.

Hold frequent Press Conferences that are not overly stage managed showing his committment to be direct and honest with the American people.

[HoosierClarkie]

78. That is great Tom and ,,,,

I would like to add what I consider to be one of the most homeland security issues is the Citizen Corps Idea. Instead of hiding in our closets with duck tape and the red,orange, yellow, so called terror alert system the american people would have a plan for terror attacks that would empower us to help eachother and our country in the midst of an attack. If we were attacked now, we would propbably all gather in lines again and give blood that in hind sight went to waste. Clark is full of ideas in that respect. I think he would also have a traveling Patriot Act so people in every community could see what it actually says and what freedoms it takes away.